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Thread: In the modern era, R1a-M458 IS Germano-Slavic.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    In the modern era, R1a-M458 IS Germano-Slavic.

    Just want to give you guys a heads up that the admins at the Facebook page (and group, to which I belong) devoted to R1a-M458 are badmouthing Maciamo for classifying R1a-M458 as Germano-Slavic; both of them are Polish, which explains the anti-German sentiment (one of them goes as far as to say Maciamo has pan-German fantasies, an absurd thing to accuse a Belgian of), but let's look at the facts. My particular subclade, YP-445, has a very western distribution (central Germany, Switzerland, outliers in French Flanders and England); my own male line comes from northeast Wurttemberg. Given what I know of the assimilation times of the Wendish tribes in Germany, the last time my male line ancestor spoke a Polabian dialect, the Byzantine Empire was a world power! It has been over a thousand years since my patrilineal ancestor would have spoken a language other than one that is Germanic; my great-great-great-grandfather would have been bilingual in English and German, and then we switch to English monolingually. I did not comment on their accusation as I am on a post-block because the lousy Facebook algorithm cannot detect context. Also I have Asperger's and can get agitated easily.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Just want to give you guys a heads up that the admins at the Facebook page (and group, to which I belong) devoted to R1a-M458 are badmouthing Maciamo for classifying R1a-M458 as Germano-Slavic; both of them are Polish, which explains the anti-German sentiment (one of them goes as far as to say Maciamo has pan-German fantasies, an absurd thing to accuse a Belgian of), but let's look at the facts. My particular subclade, YP-445, has a very western distribution (central Germany, Switzerland, outliers in French Flanders and England); my own male line comes from northeast Wurttemberg. Given what I know of the assimilation times of the Wendish tribes in Germany, the last time my male line ancestor spoke a Polabian dialect, the Byzantine Empire was a world power! It has been over a thousand years since my patrilineal ancestor would have spoken a language other than one that is Germanic; my great-great-great-grandfather would have been bilingual in English and German, and then we switch to English monolingually. I did not comment on their accusation as I am on a post-block because the lousy Facebook algorithm cannot detect context. Also I have Asperger's and can get agitated easily.
    I don't think any can argue it is "Germano-Slavic" in a modern historical context. Considering its highest elevation and diversity between Germany and Poland, and its general dominance among Slavs are predominantly of the Western Slavic groups. But, ancestrally speaking, the progenitor of clades under M458 are the result of Proto-Slavic, and possibly Baltic tribes. Some Proto-Slavs were assimilated into the Gothic movements. Maybe some via trade along the amber route moved with the Saxons, or later with the Polabian Vikings that joined the heathen armies.

    Also, by the middle ages the lineage was already well dispersed. By the Renaissance the lineage was held by various peoples of diverse european backgrounds and linguistic/cultural affiliations. 2000 years ago however, the progenitor was likely Proto-Slavic/Baltic. By the migration period it could have likely already been dispersed and assimilated by surrounding groups in minimal proportions(Goths, Bastarnae etc). If anyone is arguing that all carriers were only Slavic speaking until recently well they would be very biased and clearly have an agenda. Sure alot of it is hypothetical and conclusions drawn on modern distributions absent ancient DNA remains. Early Middle ages(pre migration) and Iron age M458/L1029 samples would solidify its origins in some sense of tangible evidence. However, the well educated guess works seems to support a Proto-Slavic/Baltic origin(whatever that was defined as at that time). How limited or prevalent their expansion was before the migration is up for debate based on linguistics, place names etc.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    I also think it is unproductive to pigeonhole certain haplogroups as belonging to just one ethnic group in a homogenous block. Saying to a E-V13 Bulgarian "sorry, no, you're Albanian, that is the people who make the largest portion of your haplogroup in the area" or to a R1a-Z284 Scot "No, you're Scandinavian, you're not Scottish, they're R1b" or to a N1c Lithuanian "N1c? That's Finnish!". I am well aware of the origin of my haplogroup; when my brother had a son early this fall I said "We have another little Wendish Warrior". But where did all the Wends go? Most of their descendants are Germans now; they provided an important contribution to the modern German nation. Some people mistake Germanic and German; the modern German nation is not just Germanic but also Celtic and Slavic, from their descendants who were later Germanized. R1a-M458 is not a Germanic haplogroup but it is a German one, much like R1b-U152. I've read too many posts of people who have been made to feel less of their particular ethnicity because they happen to have a rare haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    I also think it is unproductive to pigeonhole certain haplogroups as belonging to just one ethnic group in a homogenous block. Saying to a E-V13 Bulgarian "sorry, no, you're Albanian, that is the people who make the largest portion of your haplogroup in the area" or to a R1a-Z284 Scot "No, you're Scandinavian, you're not Scottish, they're R1b" or to a N1c Lithuanian "N1c? That's Finnish!". I am well aware of the origin of my haplogroup; when my brother had a son early this fall I said "We have another little Wendish Warrior". But where did all the Wends go? Most of their descendants are Germans now; they provided an important contribution to the modern German nation. Some people mistake Germanic and German; the modern German nation is not just Germanic but also Celtic and Slavic, from their descendants who were later Germanized. R1a-M458 is not a Germanic haplogroup but it is a German one, much like R1b-U152. I've read too many posts of people who have been made to feel less of their particular ethnicity because they happen to have a rare haplogroup.
    Alot of people who make those generalizations though are themselves not well versed in genetics to begin with. Population genetics is after all whats used to infer actual genetic ancestry as opposed to haplogroup which would only shed light on the earliest ancestor that carried the line. Haplogroups only make up roughly less than a percent of so of the genome. A person in Africa isn't any less African if they happen to carry a haplogroup belonging to the Vandals. Nor is a Chinese person belonging to L1029 Slavic because of a possibly Proto-Slavic ancestor. I think that is what the general argument is. In a modern sense it is definitely Germano-Slavic because these are the groups that consist of the highest concentrations. Or you could just call it Central European. Thats the most accurate unbiased way to classify it in a modern sense as it radiates out of Central Europe.

    In an ancient sense it is Proto Slavic or Balto-Slavic. Some of it could have been absorbed by surrounding East Germanic tribes like Goths and Vandals. The ancient tribes that mostly likely could be associated with M458 could be the Neuri, Budini, Androphagi, Melanchlaeni and possibly Gelonians. They all fall within the Balto-Slavic zone, Trziniec Culture. By the time of the early middle ages, it could already have been minimally carried/absorbed by Goths, Avars, Bulgars.

    Neuri: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuri

    Budini: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

    Androphagi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androphagi

    Melanchlaeni: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanchlaeni

    Gelonians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelonians

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    Might as well start calling R1b-U106 Slavo-Germanic while we are at it. M458 is a Slavic marker, not Germanic, not German. Slavic, deal with it and stop trying to put "German" everywhere, it smells like 19th century b*llshit.

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    I would, yes, prefer Central European. Also there are some semantic problems with the term Germanic versus the related term German; the Germanic peoples have been around for thousands of years while Germans coalesced in the former East Frankish Kingdom from various strains of people (Roman colonists, Alpine Celts, Slavonic Wends, and of course Germanic tribes) who spoke common related dialects. And I was also unaware of the complex Poles have towards Germans-I am, of course aware of the history between the two countries, but that was primarily driven by Prussia, an entity that no longer exists; and would only like to acknowledge that my paternal line ancestors in Bavaria Slavica and the Main Valley were quite early assimilated into the German people, having been invited in by Charlemagne, who was friendly with the Wends.

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    Very pointless discussion. Almost autistic.

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    It's only autistic when it doesn't fit German agenda. M458 is a Slavic marker, there is no disscusion about it. Yet Maciamo felt a need to put "German" next to it. Put "German" next to J1 and J2 as well, why bother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Just want to give you guys a heads up that the admins at the Facebook page (and group, to which I belong) devoted to R1a-M458 are badmouthing Maciamo for classifying R1a-M458 as Germano-Slavic; both of them are Polish, which explains the anti-German sentiment (one of them goes as far as to say Maciamo has pan-German fantasies, an absurd thing to accuse a Belgian of), but let's look at the facts. My particular subclade, YP-445, has a very western distribution (central Germany, Switzerland, outliers in French Flanders and England); my own male line comes from northeast Wurttemberg. Given what I know of the assimilation times of the Wendish tribes in Germany, the last time my male line ancestor spoke a Polabian dialect, the Byzantine Empire was a world power! It has been over a thousand years since my patrilineal ancestor would have spoken a language other than one that is Germanic; my great-great-great-grandfather would have been bilingual in English and German, and then we switch to English monolingually. I did not comment on their accusation as I am on a post-block because the lousy Facebook algorithm cannot detect context. Also I have Asperger's and can get agitated easily.
    I guess you didn't pay enough attention to that discussion within the group. R1A-M458 isn't German, or Germano-Slavic. Arguably, at over four-thousand years old, he's not even proto-Slavic. Although the Romans undoubtedly called his descendants Slavs. In your case, R-L1029(estimated age 2 to 3 thousand years according to YFull) is considered to be "a Slavic Marker" as its population dispersal is consistent with the height of the reach/expansion of the Slavic population across Europe. But the operative part there is "at the height" as things collapsed from there. Nobody in that Facebook group would argue that your R-YP445 Ancestor(estimated age 1300 to 1800 years old; or roughly 200CE to 700CE) may have identified as either an Anglo or a Saxon. Or he might have identified as a Slav himself, even if his grand-children didn't.

    Going by the wikipedia entry on Anglo-Saxons (would provide the link, but as I'm newly registered, I can't):

    The early Anglo-Saxon period covers the history of medieval Britain that starts from the end of Roman rule. It is a period widely known in European history as the Migration Period, also the Völkerwanderung("migration of peoples" in German). This was a period of intensified human migration in Europe from about 400 to 800. The migrants were Germanic tribes such as the Goths, Vandals, Angles, Saxons, Lombards, Suebi, Frisii, and Franks; they were later pushed westwards by the Huns, Avars, Slavs, Bulgars, and Alans. The migrants to Britain might also have included the Huns and Rugini.By the year 400, southern Britain – that is Britain below Hadrian's Wall – was a peripheral part of the western Roman Empire, occasionally lost to rebellion or invasion, but until then always eventually recovered. Around 410, Britain slipped beyond direct imperial control into a phase which has generally been termed "sub-Roman"
    Odd how history seems to indicate there were Slavs running around in Germany in the appropriate time frame for even R-YP445 to be a Slav. Of course, they then integrated into the local population, and their cultural identity shifted over time from being Slavic to being Germanic. Just from the quote above, I'd say R-YP445 was "probably a Slav" but that doesn't exclude his descendants from being Germans, or "Anglo-Saxons" from Britain.

    I personally identify as an American who happens to be descended from R-L260 myself. Which is how I'm aware of that discussion. While my descendants can likewise make the claim to being "of American Descent" that does not mean that somehow magically turns R-L260, R-M458, or R-M459 himself into an American as well.

    If you reviewed that discussion, I think you'd find the same admin who was hyper-critical of M458 being called Germano-Slavic also had bad things to say about calling M458 Slavic as well, because M458 probably had never even heard of a Slav(considering it's what the Romans called them--Slaves; however, that wasn't until a couple thousand years after he was dead and gone). But people are lazy, and as the vast majority of M458's descendants happened to live in the area that became known as Slavic, thus M458 "became a Slav" retroactively.

    The Slavic identifier, historically inaccurate as it is, at least is defensible, as M458 is both likely to have originated there, and M458 populations remain there in numbers to this day. Particularly given L1029's expansion, it's safe to say that M458's descendants probably had at least some influence in the form Slavic society ultimately took.

    The claim for M458 being "Germanic" however? That has a number of problems, and only has a leg to stand on if you define it using Prussia as your guide, and even then, there are problems to be had.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Migrant View Post
    I guess you didn't pay enough attention to that discussion within the group. R1A-M458 isn't German, or Germano-Slavic. Arguably, at over four-thousand years old, he's not even proto-Slavic. Although the Romans undoubtedly called his descendants Slavs. In your case, R-L1029(estimated age 2 to 3 thousand years according to YFull) is considered to be "a Slavic Marker" as its population dispersal is consistent with the height of the reach/expansion of the Slavic population across Europe. But the operative part there is "at the height" as things collapsed from there. Nobody in that Facebook group would argue that your R-YP445 Ancestor(estimated age 1300 to 1800 years old; or roughly 200CE to 700CE) may have identified as either an Anglo or a Saxon. Or he might have identified as a Slav himself, even if his grand-children didn't.

    Going by the wikipedia entry on Anglo-Saxons (would provide the link, but as I'm newly registered, I can't):

    Odd how history seems to indicate there were Slavs running around in Germany in the appropriate time frame for even R-YP445 to be a Slav. Of course, they then integrated into the local population, and their cultural identity shifted over time from being Slavic to being Germanic. Just from the quote above, I'd say R-YP445 was "probably a Slav" but that doesn't exclude his descendants from being Germans, or "Anglo-Saxons" from Britain.

    I personally identify as an American who happens to be descended from R-L260 myself. Which is how I'm aware of that discussion. While my descendants can likewise make the claim to being "of American Descent" that does not mean that somehow magically turns R-L260, R-M458, or R-M459 himself into an American as well.

    If you reviewed that discussion, I think you'd find the same admin who was hyper-critical of M458 being called Germano-Slavic also had bad things to say about calling M458 Slavic as well, because M458 probably had never even heard of a Slav(considering it's what the Romans called them--Slaves; however, that wasn't until a couple thousand years after he was dead and gone). But people are lazy, and as the vast majority of M458's descendants happened to live in the area that became known as Slavic, thus M458 "became a Slav" retroactively.

    The Slavic identifier, historically inaccurate as it is, at least is defensible, as M458 is both likely to have originated there, and M458 populations remain there in numbers to this day. Particularly given L1029's expansion, it's safe to say that M458's descendants probably had at least some influence in the form Slavic society ultimately took.

    The claim for M458 being "Germanic" however? That has a number of problems, and only has a leg to stand on if you define it using Prussia as your guide, and even then, there are problems to be had.
    I agree with most of your position, however, per my understanding, M458 was present around the time of the proposed Balto-Slavic union. Personally I find Z280 to be perfect for Balto-Slavic union as there are Slavic(CTS12111) and Baltic(Z92) specific branches. Whereas M458 seems focused predominantly in Central Europeans,West Slavs and to some extent east and south slavs. I think the only thing working against M458 is cremation which seems to be why no ancient remains prior to the Christian era turn up. The only one we have is i think later middle ages from Usedom.

    If there are clades of M458 specific to only Germans then I would call those clades German in the sense that the progenitor prior to the clades divergence was assimilated into, and expanded his descendants within the German ethnos. For example I am basal L1029, negative downstream. I seem to have an Albanian specific founder effect within L1029. The founding father of myself and other Albanians in our clade lived around 1200-1300ypb. Prior to this founder clade, all my ydna matches are 2000ypb or more. So my understanding taking context into account is that M458 is Balto-Slavic(whatever that terminology meant back in antiquity), L1029, YP515 L260 all would be connected to the Slavic migrations(though some would argue only clades under these branches would be specificially slavic). So maybe we can say Proto-Slavic. Then this Proto-Slavic ancestor had he arrived assimilated or otherwise, would have assimilated into and spread his progeny within Albania. Every clade is a step in the genealogical ladder. Migrations after all are not uniform in history.

    Today M458 is most common in Poland, and East Germany and Belarus as far as the highest density and diversity of clades. I think this is where the "Germano-Slavic" label initially came in. In a modern sense its distribution would give that idea. However as you say, if we are being technical, M458 is neither Germanic nor Slavic, as it goes back to about 2700BC. Will it be found where its densely concentrated today still remains to be seen.

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    M458 in Germans is from West Slavs that used to inhabit East Germany. There is nothing German/Germanic about M458. Like I said, be fair and call U106 Slavo-German, since it peaks pretty high in Poles and Czechs.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Actually, the reallity is that M458 language is most likely dead (perhaps similar to Baltic and Slavic, but now dead). I would not say that M458 is "proto-Slavic" in strict terminology, because mostly probably, the most authentic 'Slavic' haplogroup, which ancestors followed linguistical development continuously from Proto-Indo-European, through Proto-Balto-Slavic stage until the final proto-Slavic stage (and further) is Z280.

    Personally I find Z280 to be perfect for Balto-Slavic union as there are Slavic(CTS12111) and Baltic(Z92) specific branches.
    I don't know how you think that CTS12111 is specifically Slavic, if it is founded also in Baltic-speaking countries, as well as Z92 can be found among many Slavic speakers, even in Southern Slavs. What happened? Balts migrating to Balkans? Z92 was most probably in the Slavophonic community since CTS12111 as well, so to speak about some specific Baltic/Slavic branches is fruitless.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    They all fall within the Balto-Slavic zone, Trziniec Culture.
    Trziniec was Baltic. Neighbouring Komarov culture was Slavic. It was related to basical Trziniec, but still different, and was on the border with the future Scythians (forest Slavs vs Steppe Scythians), which explains some Iranian loanwords in Slavic languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    Trziniec was Baltic. Neighbouring Komarov culture was Slavic. It was related to basical Trziniec, but still different, and was on the border with the future Scythians (forest Slavs vs Steppe Scythians), which explains some Iranian loanwords in Slavic languages.
    This is accurate. Slavic intially was a small, innovative branch of Balto-Slavic, heavily influenced by Iranian. The separation is complete when Baltic Milograd and Pomeranian cultures as well as Slavic Chernoles culture arise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    This is accurate. Slavic intially was a small, innovative branch of Balto-Slavic, heavily influenced by Iranian.
    Slavic is not heavily influenced by iranian. Mainly it's so-called "Visarga stage"; lost of final word syllable "-as" and replacing it with short vowel "-ú", so in late proto-Slavic "Wilkos" became "Wilkú", and some other little structural influence, but it's not "heavy".

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