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View Poll Results: Main Y-haplogroups on the territory of Dacia 2000-3000 years ago?

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  • C

    0 0%
  • E

    8 47.06%
  • G2

    4 23.53%
  • H2

    0 0%
  • I1

    0 0%
  • I2

    7 41.18%
  • J2

    8 47.06%
  • Q

    1 5.88%
  • R1a

    6 35.29%
  • R1b

    8 47.06%
  • T

    0 0%
  • Other. Specify what you think.

    0 0%
  • Similar to the current proportion in the area.

    0 0%
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Thread: Main Y-haplogroups on the territory of Dacia 2000-3000 years ago.

  1. #26
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Great thread and poll!
    I voted I2,J2 and R1B, based on the results of a study about Aromanians from different countries, from South of Danube.
    This study included some Y DNA tested also.
    E was clearly present South of Danube, but we do not know if it was present as a main paternal lineage at the North Dacians.
    This is what I hear, that Dacians were split in two large subgroups, South Dacians and North Dacians.
    I voted for North Dacians, only.

  2. #27
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by JajarBingan View Post
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...9382506982&z=6

    So, let's all be civilised. The archaeological data is in favour of the continuation, while the autosomal aspect from ancients was simply not studied past the Chalcolithic yet. Modern Romanians are an almost 50/50 split between Balkan and Eastern European paternal markers and around 60/40 autosomally, when modelled as a combination of Balkans Iron Age and Baltic Iron Age.

    Just to liven up the mood a bit here. Here's the fit of the only medieval Hungarian sample from current Eastern Hungary that we have (1224-1264AD):



    Definitely a poor Vlach from the bottom of Thessaloniki who somehow managed to infiltrate the pure Carpathian space. Honestly you guys should rely less on theories from a period where everyone was pushing for claims on his neighbours' lands and focus on what we have now. And keep an open mind to everything, unless there is data to prove your point. I just don't understand how people can make claims of what is typical and atypical of the Carpathian space when we literally don't have a thing from here past the Chalcolithic (Y-DNA nor aDNA). And the Chalcolithic thing is almost purely farmer, as opposed to heavily filled with EHG as in Ukraine for example. So naturally, you would expect the descendant population to be heavier farmers than steppe pastoralists, unless some kind of Armageddon happened.

    And just for the heck of it, while I have the calculator up and running, here is a fit with the data that we have from Romania (Balkans_CHL:I4089 and Romania HG) plus a sample from the same time period in Southern Balkans (Klei10) and the later Yamnaya from Ukraine, who obviously touched all of the Balkans.


    Thank you! Interesting!
    I looked now at the map you posted, and found some more recent paternal DNA than 3000 BC, from the edge of the Dacian kingdom. Unfortunately, there is a lack of data from Dacia's center but are some data from the edge of the Dacian kingdom.

    In the interest period 1000 - 1 BCE, I found just a few(8) data :
    R1b x4 ................. 50%
    R1 x1 ..................... 12,5%
    N x1 ....................... 12,5%
    G2a x1 .............. 12,5%
    Q1a1 x1 ................... 12,5%

    I think if we interpolate with the older or newer period data, from the same territories, we can get a better idea.

    3000-2000 BCE
    I2a x5 ............... 38,5%
    G2a x2 .............. 15,4%
    R1b x5 .............. 38,5%
    H2 x1 ................ 7,7%

    2000-1000 BC
    (little important, being just one)
    R1a1a .... 100%

    (R1b, I2a and G2a are mostly subclade of R1b1a, I2a2a and G2a2

    For the more recent period, I have only found a single location in western Hungary where we notice the prevalence of R1b and I2a, which is also noticeable earlier.
    Late Antiquity(300-650 AD)
    Longobard, 410-600 AD;
    SZ2:
    Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a(L130)
    SZ3:
    Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2a2(S390)
    SZ4:
    Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a1b(Z16)
    SZ5:
    Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b(CTS1595)
    SZ7:
    Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2a2a2(ZS20)
    SZ11
    Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a1a1(Z351)
    SZ12:
    Y-DNA: I2a2a1(CTS9183)
    SZ13:
    Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2a2a2(ZS20)
    SZ14:
    Y-DNA: I2a2a1(CTS9183)
    SZ15:
    Y-DNA: R1a1a1b1a3a(S200)
    SZ16:
    Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a1c(Z381)
    SZ18:
    Y-DNA: E1b1b1a1b2(CTS2817)
    SZ22:
    Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2a2a2(ZS20)
    SZ23:
    Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a1c(Z381)
    SZ24:
    Y-DNA: I2a2a1(CTS9183)
    SZ27B:
    Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a1a2(S116)
    SZ36:
    Y-DNA: T1a1a(PF5620)
    SZ37:
    Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a1a2(S116)
    SZ42:
    Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a1a2(S116)
    SZ43:
    Y-DNA: I2a2a1a2a1a(S391)
    SZ45:
    Y-DNA: I1a1b1(L22)

    With these, I think, R1b followed by I2a and G2a seem to be the most representative of the Dacian population in the Iron Age. Possible, little N or Q, but just traces, having only one example.

  3. #28
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-PH908*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2a1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    So for example in Brasov you've got 4 tested J2a-L84 who match with a Macedonian/Bulgarian from Struga, so likely Medieval arrivals with Vlachs. In Cluj and Bihar there are 2 J2a haplotypes RU272 and H46, they don't seem to have any close matches, but they are very likely J-L264, so I guess they should be of Dacian ancestry considering their location, and probably they are some local element since the Neolithic times considering the age and spread of L264.
    L84 formed 13k years ago and it doesn't seem that it has a TMRCA on YFull. Why would it be medieval then?



    Anyways, I'll keep looking closer at the studies that I have.

    I scanned through "Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma" today, since they have 144 Romanians there and managed to extract the following:

    R1b 18 13%
    R1a 32 22%
    I2 33 23%
    J2 19 13%
    E1b1b 25 17%
    J1 2 1%
    G2a 3 2%
    I1 9 6%
    N1c 1 1%
    T 1 1%

    R1b 18
    R-L2 3 17%
    R-L21 1 6%
    R-L23 8 44%
    R-L480 (down from R-L23) 1 6%
    R-U106 (down from R-L23) 3 17%
    R-U152(down from R-L23) 1 6%
    R-U19 (down from R-L23) 1 6%

    That's 78% R1b in the Eastern R-L23. Strong candidate for a local old Indo-European pop.

    E1b1b 25
    E-M123 1 4%
    E-V13 22 88%
    E-V22 2 8%

    The majority is in E-V13, which again could point to something local. How they'll arrive in Southeast Europe is still a mystery, if I'm not mistaken.

    R1a 32
    R-M17 25 78%
    R-M458 7 22%

    Here, the situation is ambiguous, as most results are stuck close to the superclade. But the ones that went downstream are the Slavic M458.

    J2 19
    J-M241 (J2b2a) 7 37%
    J-M410 (J2a) 8 42%
    J-M67 (down from J-M410) 3 16%
    J-M92 (down from J-M410) 1 5%

    More J2a than J2b, 63/37; considering that J2b dominates in Albanians, I'd expect Southern Vlachs to carry more J2b.
    M67, going by the only result that we have here, seems to flow in M92 eventually. Now, M92 could be of Greek origin, since its spread in Greece and Southern Italy.
    But if we were to follow M92 downstream on YFull, we'd eventually stumble on the interesting L556, with a TMRCA 1150. It is almost exclusively Eastern and Central European, but its upstream Y20051 split 6100bp in the Middle East apparently (limited data as always obviously). Could be either from Greece, migrations in the Black Sea region for Eastern Europe and general migrations towards the West for Central Europe (remember those Szolad, Collegno and German Medieval samples who looked like insular Greeks; something along those lines perhaps). Alternatively, some of the M67>M92>L556 may also be shared from the Roma migrations IMO.

    I2 33
    I-M223 4 12%
    I-M438 5 15%
    I-P37.2 23 70%
    I-P41.2 1 3%

    Most of it, 88%, probably falls in the Dinaric clade and 12% in I2a2.


    So, I'll dig further, because a lot of these are stuck to far up the tree to be able to draw meaningful conclusions, but R-L23, E-V13 and maybe both J2's? (although the situation with J2a still needs further research to at least get a feel of what looks Balkan and what doesn't) are still looking suspiciously local.

  4. #29
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    From archaeological data, E and J are little found in Europe at that time. Today are found everywhere in good proportions. I do not think the Vlachs have invaded Europe and conquered it so much. More possible that some E and J have biological advantage like more newborn boys.

  5. #30
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-PH908*
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    T2a1b1a

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    From archaeological data, E and J are little found in Europe at that time. Today are found everywhere in good proportions. I do not think the Vlahs have invaded Europe and conquered it so much. More possible that some E and J have biological advantage like more newborn boys.
    Time will tell, there are a lot of gaps right now in time periods and data in general.

    I can see that scenario being possible if the E's and some of the J's travelled with the R-L23/Z2103 folk and eventually mixed with them. Then they would share the same patriarchal tendencies and explode in numbers, but as Z2103 the focus would be on Southeastern Europe mostly. It kind of makes sense to assume that this "alliance" formed somewhere in Southern Caucasus, due to the presence of the E's, which have more chance to get picked up somewhere in Northern Levant than on the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Proto-Armenians perhaps? It certainly explains the Dinaric nose in Southeastern Europe.

    I mean, why would Indo-Euros travel only via the steppe into Europe. Maybe this Z2103 branch took a detour around Armenia, some of them stopped there, and the rest picked some E's and J's in the North Levantine/Anatolian space before breaking into Europe through the Dardanelles.

    By the way, those 3 G's fall in G-P15, which is upstream from your G-P303. Thus, they might as well be 303 too.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JajarBingan View Post
    I can see that scenario being possible if the E's and some of the J's travelled with the R-L23/Z2103 folk and eventually mixed with them. Then they would share the same patriarchal tendencies and explode in numbers, but as Z2103 the focus would be on Southeastern Europe mostly. It kind of makes sense to assume that this "alliance" formed somewhere in Southern Caucasus, due to the presence of the E's, which have more chance to get picked up somewhere in Northern Levant than on the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Proto-Armenians perhaps? It certainly explains the Dinaric nose in Southeastern Europe.

    I mean, why would Indo-Euros travel only via the steppe into Europe. Maybe this Z2103 branch took a detour around Armenia, some of them stopped there, and the rest picked some E's and J's in the North Levantine/Anatolian space before breaking into Europe through the Dardanelles.

    By the way, those 3 G's fall in G-P15, which is upstream from your G-P303. Thus, they might as well be 303 too.
    Yes. I think it's like you say.
    Besides the migrations that I do not think were so massive as we think now, it is possible that some haplogroups have periods of decline and then return to high percentages, with the emergence of new mutations that positively affect fertility or favor the birth of more boys than girls. Maybe also can explain what happened with I2a-Din in the Balkans in the last 2000 years.

    G2a after the Neolithic explosion, it maybe was in such disadvantage (newborn male/female<1) in front of I2 or R1, reaching after that small percentages. But it can return to major percentages soon with the emergence of beneficial mutations. Little strange is that on my paternal G2a-P303 line, I have from 4 generations only male descendants... So it's not known what's going to be over hundreds of years.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    Yes. I think it's like you say.
    Besides the migrations that I do not think were so massive as we think now, it is possible that some haplogroups have periods of decline and then return to high percentages, with the emergence of new mutations that positively affect fertility or favor the birth of more boys than girls. Maybe also can explain what happened with I2a-Din in the Balkans in the last 2000 years.

    G2a after the Neolithic explosion, it maybe was in such disadvantage (newborn male/female<1) in front of I2 or R1, reaching after that small percentages. But it can return to major percentages soon with the emergence of beneficial mutations. Little strange is that on my paternal G2a-P303 line, I have from 4 generations only male descendants... So it's not known what's going to be over hundreds of years.
    Well, you've certainly got some work to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JajarBingan View Post
    Well, you've certainly got some work to do.
    Yes, a lot!

  10. #35
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    Region/Haplogroup I1
    I2a I2b R1a
    R1b G
    J2 J1 E1b1b T Q N Sample size

    South Greece 1.5 9 1 10.5 20.5 3.5
    19.5
    1 27
    4.5
    0 0
    Albania 2 12 1.5 9 16 1.5 19.5 2 27.5 1 0 0
    Central Greece 3.5 7 3.5 11 11.5 6 19 3.5 29.5 5 0 0
    Looking on Maciamo's table, today's situation places Albanians from the perspective of YDNA, closest to the South and Central Greeks, with almost identical percentages of E and J.

    Among the hundreds of YDNA listed here, https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...5085150826&z=6 there are only 2 or 3 Js and Es from ancient times. This does not prove at all that the Dacians had J or E as an important component.
    ...Probably E and J exploded very recently from south Balkans, and are now found all over Europe, even in Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Scotland or Latvia.

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    So, over the entire 3000-1 BCE period, I have found around Dacia only these:
    9.5x R1b ............ 43.2%
    5x I2a ............... 22,7%
    3x G2a .............. 13.5%
    1.5x R1a ............. 6.8%
    1x H2 .................. 4.5%
    1x N .................... 4.5%
    1x Q1a1 .............. 4.5%
    (I split an R1 sample between R1b and R1a because it has no subgroups.)
    I think it is the best clue to what was in the center of Dacia, until more discoveries are made.

  12. #37
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    A nice high-level overview of the archaeological record from the Southeast European Bronze Age

    https://indo-european.info/indo-euro..._Thracians_and

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