Main Y-haplogroups on the territory of Dacia 2000-3000 years ago.

[mihaitzateo]

Great thread and poll!
I voted I2,J2 and R1B, based on the results of a study about Aromanians from different countries, from South of Danube.
This study included some Y DNA tested also.
E was clearly present South of Danube, but we do not know if it was present as a main paternal lineage at the North Dacians.
This is what I hear, that Dacians were split in two large subgroups, South Dacians and North Dacians.
I voted for North Dacians, only.

[gidai]

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...9382506982&z=6

So, let's all be civilised. The archaeological data is in favour of the continuation, while the autosomal aspect from ancients was simply not studied past the Chalcolithic yet. Modern Romanians are an almost 50/50 split between Balkan and Eastern European paternal markers and around 60/40 autosomally, when modelled as a combination of Balkans Iron Age and Baltic Iron Age.

Just to liven up the mood a bit here. Here's the fit of the only medieval Hungarian sample from current Eastern Hungary that we have (1224-1264AD):



Definitely a poor Vlach from the bottom of Thessaloniki who somehow managed to infiltrate the pure Carpathian space. Honestly you guys should rely less on theories from a period where everyone was pushing for claims on his neighbours' lands and focus on what we have now. And keep an open mind to everything, unless there is data to prove your point. I just don't understand how people can make claims of what is typical and atypical of the Carpathian space when we literally don't have a thing from here past the Chalcolithic (Y-DNA nor aDNA). And the Chalcolithic thing is almost purely farmer, as opposed to heavily filled with EHG as in Ukraine for example. So naturally, you would expect the descendant population to be heavier farmers than steppe pastoralists, unless some kind of Armageddon happened.

And just for the heck of it, while I have the calculator up and running, here is a fit with the data that we have from Romania (Balkans_CHL:I4089 and Romania HG) plus a sample from the same time period in Southern Balkans (Klei10) and the later Yamnaya from Ukraine, who obviously touched all of the Balkans.

Thank you! Interesting!
I looked now at the map you posted, and found some more recent paternal DNA than 3000 BC, from the edge of the Dacian kingdom. Unfortunately, there is a lack of data from Dacia's center but are some data from the edge of the Dacian kingdom.

In the interest period 1000 - 1 BCE, I found just a few(8) data :
R1b x4 ................. 50%
R1 x1 ..................... 12,5%
N x1 ....................... 12,5%
G2a x1 .............. 12,5%
Q1a1 x1 ................... 12,5%

I think if we interpolate with the older or newer period data, from the same territories, we can get a better idea.

3000-2000 BCE
I2a x5 ............... 38,5%
G2a x2 .............. 15,4%
R1b x5 .............. 38,5%
H2 x1 ................ 7,7%

2000-1000 BC
(little important, being just one)
R1a1a .... 100%

(R1b, I2a and G2a are mostly subclade of R1b1a, I2a2a and G2a2

For the more recent period, I have only found a single location in western Hungary where we notice the prevalence of R1b and I2a, which is also noticeable earlier.
Late Antiquity(300-650 AD)
Longobard, 410-600 AD;
SZ2:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a(L130)
SZ3:
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2a2(S390)
SZ4:
Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a1b(Z16)
SZ5:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b(CTS1595)
SZ7:
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2a2a2(ZS20)
SZ11
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a1a1(Z351)
SZ12:
Y-DNA: I2a2a1(CTS9183)
SZ13:
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2a2a2(ZS20)
SZ14:
Y-DNA: I2a2a1(CTS9183)
SZ15:
Y-DNA: R1a1a1b1a3a(S200)
SZ16:
Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a1c(Z381)
SZ18:
Y-DNA: E1b1b1a1b2(CTS2817)
SZ22:
Y-DNA: I2a2a1b2a2a2(ZS20)
SZ23:
Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a1c(Z381)
SZ24:
Y-DNA: I2a2a1(CTS9183)
SZ27B:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a1a2(S116)
SZ36:
Y-DNA: T1a1a(PF5620)
SZ37:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a1a2(S116)
SZ42:
Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2a1a2(S116)
SZ43:
Y-DNA: I2a2a1a2a1a(S391)
SZ45:
Y-DNA: I1a1b1(L22)

With these, I think, R1b followed by I2a and G2a seem to be the most representative of the Dacian population in the Iron Age. Possible, little N or Q, but just traces, having only one example.

[JajarBingan]

So for example in Brasov you've got 4 tested J2a-L84 who match with a Macedonian/Bulgarian from Struga, so likely Medieval arrivals with Vlachs. In Cluj and Bihar there are 2 J2a haplotypes RU272 and H46, they don't seem to have any close matches, but they are very likely J-L264, so I guess they should be of Dacian ancestry considering their location, and probably they are some local element since the Neolithic times considering the age and spread of L264.

L84 formed 13k years ago and it doesn't seem that it has a TMRCA on YFull. Why would it be medieval then?



Anyways, I'll keep looking closer at the studies that I have.

I scanned through "Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma" today, since they have 144 Romanians there and managed to extract the following:

R1b	18	13%
R1a	32	22%
I2	33	23%
J2	19	13%
E1b1b	25	17%
J1	2	1%
G2a	3	2%
I1	9	6%
N1c	1	1%
T	1	1%

R1b	18
R-L2	3	17%
R-L21	1	6%
R-L23	8	44%
R-L480 (down from R-L23)	1	6%
R-U106 (down from R-L23)	3	17%
R-U152(down from R-L23)	1	6%
R-U19 (down from R-L23)	1	6%

That's 78% R1b in the Eastern R-L23. Strong candidate for a local old Indo-European pop.

E1b1b	25
E-M123	1	4%
E-V13	22	88%
E-V22	2	8%

The majority is in E-V13, which again could point to something local. How they'll arrive in Southeast Europe is still a mystery, if I'm not mistaken.

R1a	32
R-M17	25	78%
R-M458	7	22%

Here, the situation is ambiguous, as most results are stuck close to the superclade. But the ones that went downstream are the Slavic M458.

J2	19
J-M241 (J2b2a)	7	37%
J-M410 (J2a)	8	42%
J-M67 (down from J-M410)	3	16%
J-M92 (down from J-M410)	1	5%

More J2a than J2b, 63/37; considering that J2b dominates in Albanians, I'd expect Southern Vlachs to carry more J2b.
M67, going by the only result that we have here, seems to flow in M92 eventually. Now, M92 could be of Greek origin, since its spread in Greece and Southern Italy.
But if we were to follow M92 downstream on YFull, we'd eventually stumble on the interesting L556, with a TMRCA 1150. It is almost exclusively Eastern and Central European, but its upstream Y20051 split 6100bp in the Middle East apparently (limited data as always obviously). Could be either from Greece, migrations in the Black Sea region for Eastern Europe and general migrations towards the West for Central Europe (remember those Szolad, Collegno and German Medieval samples who looked like insular Greeks; something along those lines perhaps). Alternatively, some of the M67>M92>L556 may also be shared from the Roma migrations IMO.

I2	33
I-M223	4	12%
I-M438	5	15%
I-P37.2	23	70%
I-P41.2	1	3%

Most of it, 88%, probably falls in the Dinaric clade and 12% in I2a2.


So, I'll dig further, because a lot of these are stuck to far up the tree to be able to draw meaningful conclusions, but R-L23, E-V13 and maybe both J2's? (although the situation with J2a still needs further research to at least get a feel of what looks Balkan and what doesn't) are still looking suspiciously local.

[gidai]

From archaeological data, E and J are little found in Europe at that time. Today are found everywhere in good proportions. I do not think the Vlachs have invaded Europe and conquered it so much. More possible that some E and J have biological advantage like more newborn boys.

[JajarBingan]

From archaeological data, E and J are little found in Europe at that time. Today are found everywhere in good proportions. I do not think the Vlahs have invaded Europe and conquered it so much. More possible that some E and J have biological advantage like more newborn boys.

Time will tell, there are a lot of gaps right now in time periods and data in general.

I can see that scenario being possible if the E's and some of the J's travelled with the R-L23/Z2103 folk and eventually mixed with them. Then they would share the same patriarchal tendencies and explode in numbers, but as Z2103 the focus would be on Southeastern Europe mostly. It kind of makes sense to assume that this "alliance" formed somewhere in Southern Caucasus, due to the presence of the E's, which have more chance to get picked up somewhere in Northern Levant than on the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Proto-Armenians perhaps? It certainly explains the Dinaric nose in Southeastern Europe.

I mean, why would Indo-Euros travel only via the steppe into Europe. Maybe this Z2103 branch took a detour around Armenia, some of them stopped there, and the rest picked some E's and J's in the North Levantine/Anatolian space before breaking into Europe through the Dardanelles.

By the way, those 3 G's fall in G-P15, which is upstream from your G-P303. Thus, they might as well be 303 too.

[Dreptul Valah]

Padre,keep the change...


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Tetzel



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pradRUkjGsw

[gidai]

I can see that scenario being possible if the E's and some of the J's travelled with the R-L23/Z2103 folk and eventually mixed with them. Then they would share the same patriarchal tendencies and explode in numbers, but as Z2103 the focus would be on Southeastern Europe mostly. It kind of makes sense to assume that this "alliance" formed somewhere in Southern Caucasus, due to the presence of the E's, which have more chance to get picked up somewhere in Northern Levant than on the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Proto-Armenians perhaps? It certainly explains the Dinaric nose in Southeastern Europe.

I mean, why would Indo-Euros travel only via the steppe into Europe. Maybe this Z2103 branch took a detour around Armenia, some of them stopped there, and the rest picked some E's and J's in the North Levantine/Anatolian space before breaking into Europe through the Dardanelles.

By the way, those 3 G's fall in G-P15, which is upstream from your G-P303. Thus, they might as well be 303 too.

Yes. I think it's like you say.
Besides the migrations that I do not think were so massive as we think now, it is possible that some haplogroups have periods of decline and then return to high percentages, with the emergence of new mutations that positively affect fertility or favor the birth of more boys than girls. Maybe also can explain what happened with I2a-Din in the Balkans in the last 2000 years.

G2a after the Neolithic explosion, it maybe was in such disadvantage (newborn male/female<1) in front of I2 or R1, reaching after that small percentages. But it can return to major percentages soon with the emergence of beneficial mutations. Little strange is that on my paternal G2a-P303 line, I have from 4 generations only male descendants... So it's not known what's going to be over hundreds of years.

[JajarBingan]

Yes. I think it's like you say.
Besides the migrations that I do not think were so massive as we think now, it is possible that some haplogroups have periods of decline and then return to high percentages, with the emergence of new mutations that positively affect fertility or favor the birth of more boys than girls. Maybe also can explain what happened with I2a-Din in the Balkans in the last 2000 years.

G2a after the Neolithic explosion, it maybe was in such disadvantage (newborn male/female<1) in front of I2 or R1, reaching after that small percentages. But it can return to major percentages soon with the emergence of beneficial mutations. Little strange is that on my paternal G2a-P303 line, I have from 4 generations only male descendants... So it's not known what's going to be over hundreds of years.

Well, you've certainly got some work to do.

[gidai]

Well, you've certainly got some work to do.

Yes, a lot!

[gidai]

Region/Haplogroup	I1	I2a	I2b	R1a	R1b	G	J2 ▴	J1	E1b1b	T	Q	N	Sample size

South Greece	1.5	9	1	10.5	20.5	3.5	19.5	1	27	4.5	0	0
Albania	2	12	1.5	9	16	1.5	19.5	2	27.5	1	0	0
Central Greece	3.5	7	3.5	11	11.5	6	19	3.5	29.5	5	0	0

Looking on Maciamo's table, today's situation places Albanians from the perspective of YDNA, closest to the South and Central Greeks, with almost identical percentages of E and J.

Among the hundreds of YDNA listed here, https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...5085150826&z=6 there are only 2 or 3 Js and Es from ancient times. This does not prove at all that the Dacians had J or E as an important component.
...Probably E and J exploded very recently from south Balkans, and are now found all over Europe, even in Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Scotland or Latvia.

[gidai]

So, over the entire 3000-1 BCE period, I have found around Dacia only these:
9.5x R1b ............ 43.2%
5x I2a ............... 22,7%
3x G2a .............. 13.5%
1.5x R1a ............. 6.8%
1x H2 .................. 4.5%
1x N .................... 4.5%
1x Q1a1 .............. 4.5%
(I split an R1 sample between R1b and R1a because it has no subgroups.)
I think it is the best clue to what was in the center of Dacia, until more discoveries are made.

[JajarBingan]

A nice high-level overview of the archaeological record from the Southeast European Bronze Age

https://indo-european.info/indo-euro..._Thracians_and

[Aspurg]

L84 formed 13k years ago and it doesn't seem that it has a TMRCA on YFull. Why would it be medieval then?

Because they share an identical haplotype indicating low TMRCA.

R-L480 (down from R-L23) 1 6%
R-U106 (down from R-L23) 3 17%
R-U152(down from R-L23) 1 6%
R-U19 (down from R-L23) 1 6%

They are indeed under L23 but they are all L51+ and Z2103-! Also all bar one R-U152 are under Germanic U106. And one of those L2's is my supposed distant cousin from maternal line.

That's 78% R1b in the Eastern R-L23. Strong candidate for a local old Indo-European pop.

So it is the opposite in this sample as well as in other Romanian samples R-L51 (Western) totally dominates the R-Z2103 (Eastern). On a sample of 60 ethnic Romanian R1b's from this and other studies only 18 can be classified as Z2103 (though one might be PF7562) and 42/60 (70 %) are safely R-L51.


R1b is robust in ethnic Romanians but Z2103 is not. Higher R-L51 is likely due to Roman, Germanic, earlier (pre-Celtic) Urnfield and Celtic influences.


Two from that sample are R-Z2705 dys392=11 and they have Southern origin, there is another of this cluster from another study.


Of others R-Y14300 is present (TMRCA 1950 ybp of two Romanians). R-FGC14590, including in that sample. And also few likely R-Y4364. These might be trail of an ancient proto-Phrygian/Armenian movement before they reached Asia Minor.


If one goes by Baltic connection maybe Z2103 is not originator of Thracian/Dacian language but finding suitable clades is not easy. Not long ago in a Serb one basal R-S24902* appeared with no relatives closer than 4400 ybp, and this clade doesn't seem Slavic at all.

E1b1b 25
E-M123 1 4%
E-V13 22 88%
E-V22 2 8%


The majority is in E-V13, which again could point to something local. How they'll arrive in Southeast Europe is still a mystery, if I'm not mistaken.

Well it's not too much of a mystery how it got there just how it expanded. In that sample there I got one cousin from Cluj who is among the most distant members of my own cluster and that area looks like my own distant home. Generally Carpathian area is place of great diversity of CTS9320 clades in general. Up to 4 basal clades of Z17107+, Z38456- including my own. Several clades of BY4526. Few Z16988's too. Some S19928's (one BY4518 cluster and one Romanian BY4518-), one E-Z17264 Ashkenazi clade from W.Ukraine (but with a match in Spain so not sure where are they from) and also in Romanians from other studies there are two CTS9320* clades (neither is yet on YFull), they both have close matches in Bulgarians. One looks actually Dacian because there is a Szekely and 3 Romanians and only 1 Bulgarian and 1 Macedonian. So CTS9320 with TMRCA of 3000 ybp is almost certainly connected to either Gava or Basarabi (or both) cultures. In Dolj all 6 V13's look likely CTS9320. And one is certainly CTS9320*. That sample includes one Y3183*. One is likely E-Y35953, at least one FGC11450, many are hard to classify on those 19 STR's etc. There is some diversity of Z5018 in Romania too.

Most likely E-V13 ultimately stems from Cetina culture as has been suggested before, interestingly this culture had Corded Ware (so R-Z280) influence and its burial practices included equal amount of cremation and inhumation, unusual in comparison to many contemporary cultures around.

R1a 32
R-M17 25 78%
R-M458 7 22%


Here, the situation is ambiguous, as most results are stuck close to the superclade. But the ones that went downstream are the Slavic M458.

Actually 8 are M458 because one L260+ is identical to one "M17" so that must be a mistake as they are both from Cluj and have a distinct haplotype.
In that sample no less than 6 from Dolj are R-YP611>YP3987 while the two from Cluj are also R-YP611>YP3987 just a different cluster. As you can see on YFull YP3987 is currently entirely populated by Serbs from a numerous cluster from Bosnia and Western Serbia. Also it seems a more distant YP3987 is found in Aromanians and a Greek.

Of M458's 3 seem L260, rest CTS11962+. Generally clades like these are Slavic. For some older "Baltic" connection one has to look at some Z92's or some other Z280's that occur in Lithuanians or Latvians.

More J2a than J2b, 63/37; considering that J2b dominates in Albanians, I'd expect Southern Vlachs to carry more J2b.

There is a Basarabi cluster in that study which is likely of recent Southern origin as it matches Albanians, Greeks etc. Others may have older presence actually.

M67, going by the only result that we have here, seems to flow in M92 eventually. Now, M92 could be of Greek origin, since its spread in Greece and Southern Italy.
But if we were to follow M92 downstream on YFull, we'd eventually stumble on the interesting L556, with a TMRCA 1150. It is almost exclusively Eastern and Central European, but its upstream Y20051 split 6100bp in the Middle East apparently

Whenever you see a cluster dotted with Eastern European flags while being distantly related to various older Middle Eastern clades with a low TMRCA you are likely looking at Jewish cluster. I haven't even checked but I bet it is Jewish.

So, I'll dig further, because a lot of these are stuck to far up the tree to be able to draw meaningful conclusions, but R-L23, E-V13 and maybe both J2's? (although the situation with J2a still needs further research to at least get a feel of what looks Balkan and what doesn't) are still looking suspiciously local.

In terms of some cluster having diversity in Dacia while being younger and expansive CTS9320's come to mind. In Ruthenians for example (sample 200 in a study) if one takes away I2a Din's, R1a's, I1's E-V13 rises to 38 % (and more on their FTDNA project). Doing same in Lvov sample from Ukraine makes E-V13 20 %. Ofc few R1a's are not Slavic. For example Albanians have high V13 but also low Slavic influence, once that is taken into account others catch up as Albanians have lowest Slavic Y-DNA influence. Many J2a/J2b's might be local too. R-L23* and likely few older R-L51's who arrived there in LBA/EIA. Possibly few R1a's with Baltic links too but very hard to identify those for now.

[torzio]

Most likely E-V13 ultimately stems from Cetina culture as has been suggested before, interestingly this culture had Corded Ware (so R-Z280) influence and its burial practices included equal amount of cremation and inhumation, unusual in comparison to many contemporary cultures around.




Actually 8 are M458 because one L260+ is identical to one "M17" so that must be a mistake as they are both from Cluj and have a distinct haplotype.
In that sample no less than 6 from Dolj are R-YP611>YP3987 while the two from Cluj are also R-YP611>YP3987 just a different cluster. As you can see on YFull YP3987 is currently entirely populated by Serbs from a numerous cluster from Bosnia and Western Serbia. Also it seems a more distant YP3987 is found in Aromanians and a Greek.

Of M458's 3 seem L260, rest CTS11962+. Generally clades like these are Slavic. For some older "Baltic" connection one has to look at some Z92's or some other Z280's that occur in Lithuanians or Latvians.





There is a Basarabi cluster in that study which is likely of recent Southern origin as it matches Albanians, Greeks etc. Others may have older presence actually.







Whenever you see a cluster dotted with Eastern European flags while being distantly related to various older Middle Eastern clades with a low TMRCA you are likely looking at Jewish cluster. I haven't even checked but I bet it is Jewish.







In terms of some cluster having diversity in Dacia while being younger and expansive CTS9320's come to mind. In Ruthenians for example (sample 200 in a study) if one takes away I2a Din's, R1a's, I1's E-V13 rises to 38 % (and more on their FTDNA project). Doing same in Lvov sample from Ukraine makes E-V13 20 %. Ofc few R1a's are not Slavic. For example Albanians have high V13 but also low Slavic influence, once that is taken into account others catch up as Albanians have lowest Slavic Y-DNA influence. Many J2a/J2b's might be local too. R-L23* and likely few older R-L51's who arrived there in LBA/EIA. Possibly few R1a's with Baltic links too but very hard to identify those for now.

Proto-Cetina/Cetina, in the southern Balkans, appears as a Bell Beaker periphery connecting the West Adriatic coast with the East Adriatic area ca. 2400–2300 BC, under the influence of Central Mediterranean Bell Beakers, whose heartlands are on one hand northern Italy and Tuscany, and on the other hand Sardinia and western Sicily (Heyd 2007).
Wristguards are present in higher quantity than in northern Italy or the Csepel group, and known from the published sites both in some numbers and as single finds, in settlements as in graves. There are also triangular riveted daggers, apart from gold jewellery in a rich grave inventory in Nin–Privlaka. There are many undecorated bowls, jugs, and cups, proper of the Begleitkeramik of the Middle Bell Beaker period, instead of Bell Beakers, of which only two beaker derivates are found, created in contact with the Adriatic variant of Vučedol (Heyd 2007).
Tumuli of several meters in diameter, primarily of stone, can have a kerb of large stones. They contain usually a rectangular cist grave made of stone slabs, with a stone-covering slab. A single person buried in a contracted position on the left or right side is the standard. Cremation is mixed with inhumation, showing local differences in the burial ritual. Tumuli with no remains are common, probably representing cenotaphs (Teržan and Karavanić 2013).
Cetina is therefore a syncretistic culture developed probably in combination with local cultures by migrating Bell Beakers, likely from a region near the Adriatic island of Palagruža, where Bell Beaker elements are predominant: wristguards, comb–stamp decorated pottery sherds with Bell Beaker decoration, and flint-inventory with characteristic arrowheads typical of Mediterranean Bell Beakers (Heyd 2007). Characteristic settlements, especially in the western Balkan hinterland, suggest that Cetina settlers were nomadic herders.
The twenty-five Cetina sites comprise the whole northern and western Adriatic shore, stretching from Trieste in the north to the ‘heel’ of southern Apulia, with concentrations around the Daunia peninsula and the Apulian plain, with related pottery in the Corazzo–Zungri settlement showing extension towards Calabria and further inland, including also a northern site in the province of Trento. Its influence is thus felt along the Adriatic from Istria and the karst hinterland of Trieste to the Peloponnnese and the southern Apennines, but also to the western Balkan hinterland, where no settlements (other than cave shelters) are known (Heyd 2007).
Chronologically, it seems that first maritime beakers appear ca. 2500 BC or shortly after that in south and south-east Italy, impacting native cultures like the Laterza–Cellino San Marco culture. After that, Italian Cetina appears ca. 2500–2300 BC, under the most recent Bell Beaker influence with the stamp and puncture decorated vessels preceding the classic (East Adriatic) Cetina phase (Figure 71) and its typical framed decoration that appeared later (Heyd 2007).


and also
https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4..._act_58_1_3460

[xri34]

I would also expect a considerable frequency of R-Z93 in Dacia. There were many tribes of Iranian origin there during late Antiquity (Iazyges, Roxolani, Tharco-Cimmerians etc.) Furthermore R-Z93 has been found to Bronze Age Bulgaria. It is possible that Proto-Thracians were R-Z93.

[Aspurg]

I would also expect a considerable frequency of R-Z93 in Dacia. There were many tribes of Iranian origin there during late Antiquity (Iazyges, Roxolani, Tharco-Cimmerians etc.) Furthermore R-Z93 has been found to Bronze Age Bulgaria. It is possible that Proto-Thracians were R-Z93.

I know well Z93 clades and thus far among ethnic Romanians/Moldovans (on a sample of 700 where STR's are available from many sources) I only saw a one certain Z93 which is of likely Turkic origin. There is more of Z93 in Bulgarians and Hungarians.

I do not think it is possible for R-Z93 to have been originators of Thracian language if one goes by Baltic connection that was supported by various authors. There was one culture which likely had lots of Z93 that made influence on formation of Thracians, the Noua culture, but the fundamental base of Thracian culture with important elements such as funeral ritual had developed earlier, already in MBA and involved cremation something very foreign to all R-Z93 groups. I think some basal R-Z280 that I saw recently might have been the originators. Still Z93 might have added some extra influence. In Bulgaria there are two Z93 clades that actually look native.

[xri34]

I know well Z93 clades and thus far among ethnic Romanians/Moldovans (on a sample of 700 where STR's are available from many sources) I only saw a one certain Z93 which is of likely Turkic origin. There is more of Z93 in Bulgarians and Hungarians.

I do not think it is possible for R-Z93 to have been originators of Thracian language if one goes by Baltic connection that was supported by various authors. There was one culture which likely had lots of Z93 that made influence on formation of Thracians, the Noua culture, but the fundamental base of Thracian culture with important elements such as funeral ritual had developed earlier, already in MBA and involved cremation something very foreign to all R-Z93 groups. I think some basal R-Z280 that I saw recently might have been the originators. Still Z93 might have added some extra influence. In Bulgaria there are two Z93 clades that actually look native.

It is quite possible that Bronze Age Z93 was just a nomad and not a Proto-Thracian. We will know for sure in the future. I know that a Z93 clade has been found to a Pole of Wallachian ancestry. It makes sense to exist some lineages from the late Antiquity Sarmatian tribes who were living there.Which are the clades of Z93 you know have been found in Romania and Bulgaria?

[Aspurg]

Which are the clades of Z93 you know have been found in Romania and Bulgaria?

In Bulgaria Thracian candidates are R-YP5271 and R-Z2125>YP413>M12280, latter is strong in the Middle East but in Europe (Italy, Spain) is found a distant clade of R-M12280>FGC66097, Bulgarian is predicted as FGC66097 but I'm not sure he fits there he is very distant to these anyway.

Of others one confirmed R-S23592 is found and also I predict 2 certain more clades under R-S23592 to be found there from studies as well as one likely S23592. Of these R-S23592>S10438 is the only clade found in Romania (Moldavia), but these are newer arrivals, this clade seems of certain Bolgar/Avar origin as they have a match in Bashkirs who have such tribal designation, and generally no S23592 fits as any potential older Thracian hg as it was already found many times in Hunnic, Sarmatian, Skythian context.

These proportions seem close to the truth from what we can deduce from the archaeological finds, but it is possible that R1b was less.

Anyway, I think the proportion of E, J2 and even R1a voted until now in the poll is exaggerated.

His sample is suspect, he took sample "around Dacia" which is irrelevant. These I2a seem EBA ones found in Bulgaria, EBA is pretty irrelevant, few of these clades from that time are found. Also did he count all those Scythian "R1b's"? Because most weren't R1b to begin with.

You and him better go get tested as at FTDNA Romanian project has a minority of Romanians, majority are Jews, Szekely, German, I know of only about 120 Romanians/Moldovans tested there. So one has to look at low res scientific studies to get a better clue about Romanian makeup.

Interestingly Dakians and Getae were not quite the same people. Archaeologically proto-Getae are from Wallachia and Moldavia whereas proto-Dakians were from Transylvania. Getae had more influences from Greeks and in general, Dakians were isolated by the mountains and unlike Getae they had strong Keltic influence. Later they were politically unified, but it is not correct that "Getae and Dacian are just interchangeable terms", Dakians proper are Transylvanian in origin.

[xri34]

In Bulgaria Thracian candidates are R-YP5271 and R-Z2125>YP413>M12280, latter is strong in the Middle East but in Europe (Italy, Spain) is found a distant clade of R-M12280>FGC66097, Bulgarian is predicted as FGC66097 but I'm not sure he fits there he is very distant to these anyway.

Of others one confirmed R-S23592 is found and also I predict 2 certain more clades under R-S23592 to be found there from studies as well as one likely S23592. Of these R-S23592>S10438 is the only clade found in Romania (Moldavia), but these are newer arrivals, this clade seems of certain Bolgar/Avar origin as they have a match in Bashkirs who have such tribal designation, and generally no S23592 fits as any potential older Thracian hg as it was already found many times in Hunnic, Sarmatian, Skythian context.




His sample is suspect, he took sample "around Dacia" which is irrelevant. These I2a seem EBA ones found in Bulgaria, EBA is pretty irrelevant, few of these clades from that time are found. Also did he count all those Scythian "R1b's"? Because most weren't R1b to begin with.

You and him better go get tested as at FTDNA Romanian project has a minority of Romanians, majority are Jews, Szekely, German, I know of only about 120 Romanians/Moldovans tested there. So one has to look at low res scientific studies to get a better clue about Romanian makeup.

Interestingly Dakians and Getae were not quite the same people. Archaeologically proto-Getae are from Wallachia and Moldavia whereas proto-Dakians were from Transylvania. Getae had more influences from Greeks and in general, Dakians were isolated by the mountains and unlike Getae they had strong Keltic influence. Later they were politically unified, but it is not correct that "Getae and Dacian are just interchangeable terms", Dakians proper are Transylvanian in origin.

Do you have any information about R-Z2122 clade? In my opinion this is mostly Alan/Sarmatian clade. What do you think?

[Aspurg]

Do you have any information about R-Z2122 clade? In my opinion this is mostly Alan/Sarmatian clade. What do you think?

I read one Greek was R-F2935 at 23andme, are you this person? Some clades such as Y52 are god candidates for Sarmatian, not sure about "Alan". Alans came from Asia in a wave after Sarmatians. And Sarmatians had three phases of successive migrations. As did Scythians before.

Also there is a specific J-Z1842 hyplotype found in Croatia, Serbia, Hungary that is also found in UK and Iberia (where Sarmatians/Alans went) and this clade might be related to those J1 Sarmatian finds in Caucasus. I think it is likely Iazygian. So not only Z93's are Sarmatian in Antiquity.

There is one Greek at FTDNA from Symi who is Z93+ nothing below tested. He looks might even say likely F2935+, because of 389ii=18 + H4=12 which are important mutations for F2935. Maybe this clade has something to do with to Seima-Turbino which was connected by some to Myceneans..

[xri34]

I read one Greek was R-F2935 at 23andme, are you this person? Some clades such as Y52 are god candidates for Sarmatian, not sure about "Alan". Alans came from Asia in a wave after Sarmatians. And Sarmatians had three phases of successive migrations. As did Scythians before.

Also there is a specific J-Z1842 hyplotype found in Croatia, Serbia, Hungary that is also found in UK and Iberia (where Sarmatians/Alans went) and this clade might be related to those J1 Sarmatian finds in Caucasus. I think it is likely Iazygian. So not only Z93's are Sarmatian in Antiquity.

There is one Greek at FTDNA from Symi who is Z93+ nothing below tested. He looks might even say likely F2935+, because of 389ii=18 + H4=12 which are important mutations for F2935. Maybe this clade has something to do with to Seima-Turbino which was connected by some to Myceneans..

Yes I am the R-F2935 Greek. At my 23andme relatives I have found another R-F2935 Greek and a second R-F1345(upstream of R-F2935) with different surnames. This is the only clade under R-Z93 I have found among Greeks. I have read at a Russian forum that R-F2935 was found in Khazars kingdom but it was a multiethnic society with many different peoples.
As far as I know Y52 has been found in Sarmatian samples and it has a similar distribution (throughout Europe) with my haplogroup. Both haplogrous exist also in Spain and Uk where Iazyges and Alans went. In general I think R-Z2122 is mostly widespread in Europe and with low frequency in Asia. Of course they were formed thousands of years ago and they could exist to very different groups. If proto-Greeks had really some relationship with Seima-Turbino my haplogroup is a very good candidate for them. I am planning to take a Yseq test to test to check if I belong to any of known R-F2935 clades.

[Aspurg]

Yes I am the R-F2935 Greek. At my 23andme relatives I have found another R-F2935 Greek and a second R-F1345(upstream of R-F2935) with different surnames. This is the only clade under R-Z93 I have found among Greeks. I have read at a Russian forum that R-F2935 was found in Khazars kingdom but it was a multiethnic society with many different peoples.
As far as I know Y52 has been found in Sarmatian samples and it has a similar distribution (throughout Europe) with my haplogroup. Both haplogrous exist also in Spain and Uk where Iazyges and Alans went. In general I think R-Z2122 is mostly widespread in Europe and with low frequency in Asia. Of course they were formed thousands of years ago and they could exist to very different groups. If proto-Greeks had really some relationship with Seima-Turbino my haplogroup is a very good candidate for them. I am planning to take a Yseq test to test to check if I belong to any of known R-F2935 clades.

Indeed Y52 has been found in a Sarmatian burial from Rostov. And now that you mention Khazars, I remember seeing STR's of two of them and now I took a look at these and one seems Y52+ with likely being Y2631-, YP1269- and possibly FGC4582-. The other indeed is R-F2935!! He doesn't match well with YP4768's, neither the Turk who is R-F1019*, they seem the best match expectedly for a few Balkars at FTDNA who must be R-F2935>F1019>Y37903 although these at YFUll are from a study it seems not FTDNA.
This Greek at FTDNA who is Z93+ but might be a candidate for R-F2935 I did not mention lacks important mutation for F2935 which is also dys385b=15. If he is F2935 he must be very distant.

Definitely you should do deeper tests for YP4768 and F1019, as you lack STR's nothing further can be said for you. If you are YP4768 then Sarmatian/Alan option is most likely, if you are F1019 and especially Y37903 you might be of Khazars. If you are negative to both you might have something to do with this Seima-Turbino hypothesis. Chances are better I guess for the first 2 options. You might try contacting those tested and persuade them to test SNP's/STR's, and you might try contacting this Greek N4544 from FTDNA, if he happens to be F2935 it might be some very distant clade that arrived there long time ago. YSEQ also adds SNP's at request for just a dollar (unless they are in unreliable region).

Regarding F2935 and Dacian area. There is not a single Romanian/Moldovan sample out of about 700 that has necessary STR's to be called likely F2935. There is one Bulgarian from Montana in a study who looks like a F2935 candidate, and one Greek from Macedonia also looks like a candidate but they also both have some unusual STR's for F2935 so some other options are there too.

[xri34]

Indeed Y52 has been found in a Sarmatian burial from Rostov. And now that you mention Khazars, I remember seeing STR's of two of them and now I took a look at these and one seems Y52+ with likely being Y2631-, YP1269- and possibly FGC4582-. The other indeed is R-F2935!! He doesn't match well with YP4768's, neither the Turk who is R-F1019*, they seem the best match expectedly for a few Balkars at FTDNA who must be R-F2935>F1019>Y37903 although these at YFUll are from a study it seems not FTDNA.
This Greek at FTDNA who is Z93+ but might be a candidate for R-F2935 I did not mention lacks important mutation for F2935 which is also dys385b=15. If he is F2935 he must be very distant.

Definitely you should do deeper tests for YP4768 and F1019, as you lack STR's nothing further can be said for you. If you are YP4768 then Sarmatian/Alan option is most likely, if you are F1019 and especially Y37903 you might be of Khazars. If you are negative to both you might have something to do with this Seima-Turbino hypothesis. Chances are better I guess for the first 2 options. You might try contacting those tested and persuade them to test SNP's/STR's, and you might try contacting this Greek N4544 from FTDNA, if he happens to be F2935 it might be some very distant clade that arrived there long time ago.

Regarding F2935 and Dacian area. There is not a single Romanian/Moldovan sample out of about 700 that has necessary STR's to be called likely F2935. There is one Bulgarian from Montana in a study who looks like a F2935 candidate, and one Greek from Macedonia also looks like a candidate but they also both have some unusual STR's for F2935 so some other options are there too.

A few days ago I spoke with the Turkish person who is R-F1019. He told me that his paternal granfather came to Turkey from Northern Greece and his ancestry before that was likely Bulgarian. So R-F1019 comes from a Balkan Turk which makes it more complicated I think. R-F1019 seems that existed among khazars but among them existed many Scytho-Sarmatian tribes so it could be in the area before the Khazars arrive. On the other hand this clade exists also in Central Asia.
Regarding the area of Dacia I know that the Polish at Ytree who is R-YP4768 has distant paternal Wallachian ancestry.
I will do BigY in the future but for now I am just thinking to buy the Snps F1019 and YP4768 from Yseq to check if I am positive.

[Aspurg]

A few days ago I spoke with the Turkish person who is R-F1019. He told me that his paternal granfather came to Turkey from Northern Greece and his ancestry before that was likely Bulgarian. So R-F1019 comes from a Balkan Turk which makes it more complicated I think. R-F1019 seems that existed among khazars but among them existed many Scytho-Sarmatian tribes so it could be in the area before the Khazars arrive. On the other hand this clade exists also in Central Asia.
Regarding the area of Dacia I know that the Polish at Ytree who is R-YP4768 has distant paternal Wallachian ancestry.
I will do BigY in the future but for now I am just thinking to buy the Snps F1019 and YP4768 from Yseq to check if I am positive.

Ah interesting that he mentions Balkan descent. Likely Khazar was Y37903, that makes him still 3100 ybp distant from this Turk per YFull, so Khazar might have very different path compared to others, I noticed one Abkhaz sporting similar haplotype. Pole doesn't have matches in Romania thus far but Romanians are undertested considering population size so he actually might be likely the descendant of Roxolani or Iazyges. There is one Italian who seems related to him at 8/37 and sharing some specific STR's at dys393 and dys607, so quite likely they form a subclade of their own. Some Sarmatians settled in Italy too, especially in late Antiquity.

When it comes to Z93 in the Pontic steppe, already Srubnaya was the first important wave and many waves followed after so it is not easy to discern to which wave particular Z93's belonged to. Newcomers assimilated locals, so likely plenty of Sarmatian Z93's were even pre-Scythian.

Yes BigY/NGS is best but SNP tests are a good interim solution, already tests for F1019 and YP4768 will tell you alot so good luck. Other Greek F2935 might be interesting too. On a Cyprus sample of 574 where Z93 was among covered SNP's 7 were Z93 with different haplotypes. Ofc Cypriots have plenty of lineages that are not common in Greece. None of those seem like F2935, one has dys385b=15 but doesn't match on other important STR's.

[mihaitzateo]

A little notice about Dacians, Geto-Dacians and Goths:
Roman Empire has retired its armies from the land of Dacia, because of the attacks of Carpi and Gothic people.
Carpi were Dacian tribes.
Gepids are scoring Southern, them being East Germanics.
There is a thread made by Dorkymon on Anthrogenica, about similarty between various people from Chernykov culture and Romanians, Yugos etc.

It is only a wild supposition that Dacians were related from an ethnical point of view to Illyrians.
Why?
If you search in the history, you will see that the Dacians were having a ritual to sacrifice a pig on the Winter Solstice and that the Dacians according to what was found in the archaelogical diggins were eating lots of pig meat.
Mister Hasdeu, in his book, "Perit-au dacii?" suposes that Dacians were raising only sheep and the pigs were brought by some other populations, but it seems mister Hasdeu did not had so much data.
Having a population called "Dacians" or "wolf people", which eats heavily pig meat, is considering war more interesting than the tilling of the land and never fought agains the Gothic tribes brings the opinion that Dacians might have been an East Germanic people.
I am referring to the ethnicity of the Dacians to try suppose the fact that most I2-din from Romania, seems to have been brought mostly by migrants that came with the Gothic tribes, from NW Poland not by the Slavic migration from 600-700 AD.
Between R1B is a little too much R1B-U106 and between R1A is a way too much R1A-M417, so the Dacians surely were not related to Illyrians.
Rather Dacians seems to have been East Germanics, that later got latinized and also suffered a Slavic influence at the language.
That R1A-M417 should also be of Dacian origins while I2-din, from both Dacians and Gothic people.
In regards to the E-HG, those were locals ,that were conquered and assimilated by Dacians.
Romanians, of Dacian origins, are scoring so called "East Balkanic" which is neither as the admixture of Albanians or Greeks, but neither as the admixture of Central Europeans as Hungarians, because Romanians are not scoring Panonia admixture.
So this shows that Dacia / Romania was not colonized heavily with people from Balkans, or Panonia, but local Dacians brought Gothic and West Slavic people, in addition to Ukrainians, which were brought later, as colonists, because Dacians were lacking population.
East Balkanic admixture peaks in Romanians and are also Romanians of Gothic/West Slavic/Ukrainian blood, that are scoring more Northwards, near Central Europe people.
So East Balkanic is clearly from the Dacian people,from Romania land, not from Balkanic people.