Main Y-haplogroups on the territory of Dacia 2000-3000 years ago.

[mihaitzateo]

It would be interesting to see what R1A have Visigoths spreaded in Spain :) .
If it is having any connection with the R1A from Romania.
A lot of Spaniards were calling themselves Goths or Dacians, because the Visigoths founded the Spanish kingdom.
Now, these Visigoths surely had both Dacians and Gothic blood and mixed ethnicity, being Visigothic-Dacian people.

[Illyri]

It would be interesting to see what R1A have Visigoths spreaded in Spain :) .

The Goths might have brought (among others) in Spain, Southern France and Italy R1a-M558>CTS8816 (under Z280) but this is based on the modern distribution of this subclade (and, to my knowledge, still needs to be confirmed by ancient DNA).

Do you know whether CTS8816 and/or its subclades (Y2902/Y3301) are also present in Romania ?

[mihaitzateo]

The Goths might have brought (among others) in Spain, Southern France and Italy R1a-M558>CTS8816 (under Z280) but this is based on the modern distribution of this subclade (and, to my knowledge, still needs to be confirmed by ancient DNA).

Do you know whether CTS8816 and/or its subclades (Y2902/Y3301) are also present in Romania ?

No idea about Romania but R-CTS8816 makes most R1A in Balkans:
https://anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-6611.html
So most R1A from Balkans is of Dacian and/or Gothic origins, not of Slavic origins.
Whatever, most R1A from Balkans is of pre-Slavic migration from 600-700 AD origins.

[Illyri]

So most R1A from Balkans is of Dacian and/or Gothic origins, not of Slavic origins.
Whatever, most R1A from Balkans is of pre-Slavic migration from 600-700 AD origins.

Thanks for your answer and the link. While certain R1a subclades present in the Balkans may have been brought by Dacian/Gothic tribes, I do not think that this works for most R1a in the Balkans and for R-CTS8816 as whole. Distribution and high frequencies concentrated in Slavic countries speak against it. If you look at the map, it is unlikely that Dacians/Goths had such an impact in North Eastern Europe. Besides, it is hard to date the arrival of R1a in the Balkans without ancient DNA, the subclades' forming ages and TMRCA being inaccurate tools for that.

[Dibran]

No idea about Romania but R-CTS8816 makes most R1A in Balkans:
https://anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-6611.html
So most R1A from Balkans is of Dacian and/or Gothic origins, not of Slavic origins.
Whatever, most R1A from Balkans is of pre-Slavic migration from 600-700 AD origins.

Dude just stop. This is already explained to death. You speak alot with little to go on but your opinion. Opinions are like a-s-s'es; we all have one.

There is no evidence for any of what you propose yet. Most R1a in the Balkans IS from Slavic migrations. What isolated rare clades may be from earlier migrations remains to be seen.

Just stop it.

[Salento]

@Dibran I assume that it’s about this:

I “Assume” it's appropriate to say that:

When you Assume (ass u me) you make a ‘ass’ out of ‘u’ and ‘me’

LOL :)

[ntindeo]

"Eurogene k36 Ancient" is based on ancestors mainly from 1500-2000 years and more. Based on this, and on the DNA of the Romanian population from these tests, some conclusions can be drawn.
I found a few tested Romanians, on the net, and according to the maps, they have the greatest similarity with the ancient populations in the Dacia area, then with the west and the rest of the Balkans and then with the center of Europe. I think this is not very consistent with the migrations and invasions that have always come from the East - North East, at least they did not have a great impact on the ancient DNA of the area. As can be seen on the map, the Romanians still largely preserve their ancient "Dacian" DNA and of the local Balkan populations, from 1500 - 2000 and more years ago.
If so, then even bringing the main local haplogroups like I2 or even R1 from the east has no much credibility.

k36b.jpg k36tearo.jpgk36g2a2a.jpg k36c2.jpgk36t.jpg

[Aspurg]

No idea about Romania but R-CTS8816 makes most R1A in Balkans:
https://anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-6611.html
So most R1A from Balkans is of Dacian and/or Gothic origins, not of Slavic origins.
Whatever, most R1A from Balkans is of pre-Slavic migration from 600-700 AD origins.

If an R1a is (proto) Thracian (including Northern Thracians/Dacians) it must be Z93 or Z92, clades such as M458 are automatically excluded. And Even for other Z280 it is next to impossible not to be Slavic. I've spotted very interesting Z92 branches and this is something in line with Thracian having numerous parallels to Baltic languages.

[mihaitzateo]

It is quite clear that the Gothic migration brought at least significant DNA and paternal lines in Romania and Balkans.
If those people were originally of West Slavic ancestry (like Wends and so on), but they turned to Gothic ethnics and later to Romanian ethnics, that is a different thing.
I have spoken with a Romanian archaeologist and he said that archaeological findings are attesting that both Dacians and Goths were living together, on the land of Romania/Dacia. Later, Slavs also joined the Dacians and Gothic ethnics.
Another thing, I highly doubt that all the Dacians were having the same DNA, but Dacians were an ethnicity, which means common language and customs.
It seems that Gothic people, early West Slavic people and Dacians were forming a group of people, which were quite close.
That includes that South Dacians, of mostly East Balkanic admixture with J2 and E and R1B paternal lines,but not only those Y DNA lines.
So, I think the Y DNA in Dacia, previous to the coming of Goths, was J2,E, R1B,R1A and I paternal lines, at least.
It is known from the history, that previous to the migration of Goths, in Dacia/Romania were also present SE European Celtic tribes and in the South East of the country, Scythians.
Those Scythians and SE Europe Celtic tribes came in Dacia before 0 AD, so more than 2000 years ago.
Is quite clear they had R1B,but I think not only R1B.

[mihaitzateo]

Thanks for your answer and the link. While certain R1a subclades present in the Balkans may have been brought by Dacian/Gothic tribes, I do not think that this works for most R1a in the Balkans and for R-CTS8816 as whole. Distribution and high frequencies concentrated in Slavic countries speak against it. If you look at the map, it is unlikely that Dacians/Goths had such an impact in North Eastern Europe. Besides, it is hard to date the arrival of R1a in the Balkans without ancient DNA, the subclades' forming ages and TMRCA being inaccurate tools for that.

Well,Slavic countries is about the mother tongue.
From my point of view, the "Slavic migrations" from 600-700 AD were people that were previously Gothic speakers,that moved in ex-Yugo lands, but now, they were speaking some West Slavic derived language.
The Gothic tribes were found till in West Poland and current DNA testing is not so advanced, to make a difference between West Slavic and Gothic and North Dacians people.
What is known is that Chernyakov culture were rather Gothic/Dacians, from a cultural point of view.
The Chernyakov culture people gave most migrants from 600-700 AD migration, called "Slavic".

[Illyri]

Well,Slavic countries is about the mother tongue.

About language and culture, which belong to the main elements of an ethnos.

[Illyri]

What is known is that Chernyakov culture were rather Gothic/Dacians, from a cultural point of view.
The Chernyakov culture people gave most migrants from 600-700 AD migration, called "Slavic".

What I understand is that certain lineages of said culture became germanic (through assimilation) while others finished their ongoing ethnogenesis process and became slavic. Would it be right to call it a Proto-Slavic culture then ?

[mihaitzateo]

What I understand is that certain lineages of said culture became germanic (through assimilation) while others finished their ongoing ethnogenesis process and became slavic. Would it be right to call it a Proto-Slavic culture then ?

Well, protoSouthSlavic.
Born from Gothic Tribes and Dacian Tribes and maybe some Celtic tribes, that were there.
But those "Gothic" people were mixture of Goths and West Slavs :) .They were speaking East Germanic (which seems that Dacians spoke also) and had Gothic lifestyle.
East Slavs already existed.
How someone can make a difference between Gothic tribes and West Slavs on DNA and North Dacians, do not ask me.
DNA testing is not advanced enough, for the moment.
Another DNA fact, is that most Poles have some Baltic DNA and most Ukrainians have some East Balkanic DNA :) .
Things were very complicated North of Danube, with Dacian Tribes, Gothic Tribes (between which seems to have existed a strong overlapping, but they were a little different), Scythians, Sarmatians, SE Europe Celts, West Slavic people being present. Is clear that Dacians were in contact with Greeks and Illyrians and Romans :) .
That being till 600-700 AD.

[lyakh]

I think that R1b (especially Z2103, "Eastern" branch) might be pretty common among ancient Dacians.
U106 (and I1), P312 may be not present or have pretty low frequency due to presence of early Germanic or Celts in the region.

E1b-V13 also might be popular. There also might be relatively large amount of G2a and J2.

I2 (especially I-Y3120) and R1a (at least Z282) should be absent in my opinion, they most probably came with Slavs, some Z93 might be present among Dacians.

[LeoJ]

Well,Slavic countries is about the mother tongue.
From my point of view, the "Slavic migrations" from 600-700 AD were people that were previously Gothic speakers,that moved in ex-Yugo lands, but now, they were speaking some West Slavic derived language.
The Gothic tribes were found till in West Poland and current DNA testing is not so advanced, to make a difference between West Slavic and Gothic and North Dacians people.
What is known is that Chernyakov culture were rather Gothic/Dacians, from a cultural point of view.
The Chernyakov culture people gave most migrants from 600-700 AD migration, called "Slavic".

For a newcomer that kind of stuff i think it's pretty 'heavy'. Also, why people's tend always to not stay in its own dedicated 'yard' and just jump the neighboard fence ? The topic is about PEOPLES OF ANCIENT DACIA, 2000 -3000 years ago, so what's with the 'vlachs', slav migrations of 600-700's, and other far too recent evidences ? Please be consistent with the genetic science and thus with the TMRCA of the specific (sub)clades to be correlated with specific cultures and ages. Is any clear facts to be take into consideration or countless enumerations of 'AZTYUU-9361242 numbers', which means nothing to the main 99,99999% of the readers ? Also, can we be consistent with the phylogeographer.com migrations datas, which in my opinion is the most up-to-date platform for the genetic factor ? Looking there, I saw no specific 'marker' for Dacia/Getia population for E haplogroup, which is really weird (besides a damn low-uploading graphic !). BTW, I consider the E branch, the most important one from all, because it's an established fact that E means GREEK CIVILIZATION, and this means further, our modern day actuality. And IMHO in this area the best thing is to make an analytic approach, just like in a basic computer language, where notions of IF, THEN, ELSE, AND,OR, etc would be the best solutions to see the 'grand picture' for us. Can somebody try to do this ? Unfortunately I'm not so experimented with the 'phylogenetic' part, so can't help. And for my romanian fellows just a (romanian) question: cand in parastasu' masii de treaba vom putea raspunde la intrebarea seculara, daca nu milenara, CINE AU FOST DACO-GETII ?????????????? Mai trebuie 1000 de ani, gen treaba cu autostrazile neterminate de 30 de ani ??
P.S. Also for my romanian speaking pals, what documentation do you suggest for this theme, books, google, etc, to be in-line with the subject (even in archaeological perspective, cultures, authors, researchers, old and new, etc ) ?

[mihaitzateo]

Well Dacian tribes and some SE Celtic tribes are the people from Dacia, from 2000-3000 yrs ago.
In regards to I, it is said that Oltenia is most pure Dacian ancestry and they have almost 10% I1,so , is possible that Dacians also had I1.
I2-din - appeared 2200 yrs ago, so it is possible that even I2-din was present 2000 yrs ago,in Dacia.
The Dacians might have been:
According to mr Hasdeu they spoke a Satem language, either related to Albanian, either related to Balto-Slavic.
According to Jordanes Dacians were speaking East Germanic and Goths were some more Northern Dacian tribes.
Either that the Dacians were speaking East Germanic either that the Dacians were speaking Satem, clearly they had R1A.

I2-din - if some Dacians tribes migrated till NW Poland and they actually brought I2-din there?
Since most diverse I2-din is in Carpathians from Moldavia .
So Dacians might have also had I2.
A thing about E is that is present in quite significant percentages till in Ukrainian highlanders, so I suppose the inhabitants of Dacia from 2000-3000 yrs ago also had E paternal lines.
R1B - clearly from Scythians and Celts, that were assimilated as Dacians, clearly present in Dacia,2000-3000 yrs ago.
About R1B-U106 - even 5-6% of paternal lines of Romania. Is not possible to be brought by West Germanics, so that should be of Dacians origin, since I doubt SE Celtic tribes and Scythians had such Y DNA.
Daca s-ar putea gasi limba dacilor, ar fi un inceput.Autostrazi, da,sunt bune, par egzample când se sapa pentru a se construi Autostrada Transilvania s-au facut diverse descoperiri arheologice.
Deci si constructia de autostrazi poate duce la descoperiri referitoare la daci :) .

[mihaitzateo]

In Romania there is few to none research done to ancient arheological sites,about Dacians.

[torzio]

Well Dacian tribes and some SE Celtic tribes are the people from Dacia, from 2000-3000 yrs ago.
In regards to I, it is said that Oltenia is most pure Dacian ancestry and they have almost 10% I1,so , is possible that Dacians also had I1.
I2-din - appeared 2200 yrs ago, so it is possible that even I2-din was present 2000 yrs ago,in Dacia.
The Dacians might have been:
According to mr Hasdeu they spoke a Satem language, either related to Albanian, either related to Balto-Slavic.
According to Jordanes Dacians were speaking East Germanic and Goths were some more Northern Dacian tribes.
Either that the Dacians were speaking East Germanic either that the Dacians were speaking Satem, clearly they had R1A.

I2-din - if some Dacians tribes migrated till NW Poland and they actually brought I2-din there?
Since most diverse I2-din is in Carpathians from Moldavia .
So Dacians might have also had I2.
A thing about E is that is present in quite significant percentages till in Ukrainian highlanders, so I suppose the inhabitants of Dacia from 2000-3000 yrs ago also had E paternal lines.
R1B - clearly from Scythians and Celts, that were assimilated as Dacians, clearly present in Dacia,2000-3000 yrs ago.
About R1B-U106 - even 5-6% of paternal lines of Romania. Is not possible to be brought by West Germanics, so that should be of Dacians origin, since I doubt SE Celtic tribes and Scythians had such Y DNA.
Daca s-ar putea gasi limba dacilor, ar fi un inceput.Autostrazi, da,sunt bune, par egzample când se sapa pentru a se construi Autostrada Transilvania s-au facut diverse descoperiri arheologice.
Deci si constructia de autostrazi poate duce la descoperiri referitoare la daci :) .

so there is no knowledge of what the dacians spoke before speaking Latin ?

[mihaitzateo]

so there is no knowledge of what the dacians spoke before speaking Latin?

There might be, but the Romanian state and Romanian historians are not aware of these documents or evidences, of what language the Dacians have spoken.
These documents might be kept in some archives and it would be quite difficult to search for these documents.
Thing is that Dacians had the Firtree as a holy tree and they ate lots of pork and they had a ritual to sacrifice a pork, on winter solstice.
So is quite a small possibility that the Dacians have spoken a language related to Illyrian/protoAlbanian.
The higher probability is that the Dacians have spoken either a language related to Balto-Slavic, either an East Germanic language.
Both the Gothic language and the Balto-Slavic languages have lots of vowels.
Gothic language is a very Southern Germanic language,which had few intelligibility with Old Norse and some intelligibility with some West German languages.
So, as said, either that the Dacians spoke East Germanic either that some or most Dacians spoke some kind of Balto-Slavic (are also plenty of common cultural customs between BaltoSlavs and Romanians) they should have had R1A.
The supposition that Dacians spoke some language close to the Illyrians is not supported, even if Romanian and Albanian are having like 300 common words, that are not of Latin or Greek or Slavic origins.

[torzio]

There might be, but the Romanian state and Romanian historians are not aware of these documents or evidences, of what language the Dacians have spoken.
These documents might be kept in some archives and it would be quite difficult to search for these documents.
Thing is that Dacians had the Firtree as a holy tree and they ate lots of pork and they had a ritual to sacrifice a pork, on winter solstice.
So is quite a small possibility that the Dacians have spoken a language related to Illyrian/protoAlbanian.
The higher probability is that the Dacians have spoken either a language related to Balto-Slavic, either an East Germanic language.
Both the Gothic language and the Balto-Slavic languages have lots of vowels.
Gothic language is a very Southern Germanic language,which had few intelligibility with Old Norse and some intelligibility with some West German languages.
So, as said, either that the Dacians spoke East Germanic either that some or most Dacians spoke some kind of Balto-Slavic (are also plenty of common cultural customs between BaltoSlavs and Romanians) they should have had R1A.
The supposition that Dacians spoke some language close to the Illyrians is not supported, even if Romanian and Albanian are having like 300 common words, that are not of Latin or Greek or Slavic origins.

from what I read......the Dacians spoke an illyrian-thracian language mix before the celts arrived in there area ......while their eastern neighbours the Getae spoke purely a Northern thracian language.
I need to re-find the romanian linguistic paper link somewhere here in eupedia, so you can read it

[LeoJ]

from what I read......the Dacians spoke an illyrian-thracian language mix before the celts arrived in there area ......while their eastern neighbours the Getae spoke purely a Northern thracian language.
I need to re-find the romanian linguistic paper link somewhere here in eupedia, so you can read it

Yes, please post the link. On the other way, you're right. My opinion is that the dacians were close related to getae, but not similar, as many historians think. They've got different influences and in different 'quantities'.

[LeoJ]

Well Dacian tribes and some SE Celtic tribes are the people from Dacia, from 2000-3000 yrs ago.
In regards to I, it is said that Oltenia is most pure Dacian ancestry and they have almost 10% I1,so , is possible that Dacians also had I1.
I2-din - appeared 2200 yrs ago, so it is possible that even I2-din was present 2000 yrs ago,in Dacia.
The Dacians might have been:
According to mr Hasdeu they spoke a Satem language, either related to Albanian, either related to Balto-Slavic.
According to Jordanes Dacians were speaking East Germanic and Goths were some more Northern Dacian tribes.
Either that the Dacians were speaking East Germanic either that the Dacians were speaking Satem, clearly they had R1A.

I2-din - if some Dacians tribes migrated till NW Poland and they actually brought I2-din there?
Since most diverse I2-din is in Carpathians from Moldavia .
So Dacians might have also had I2.
A thing about E is that is present in quite significant percentages till in Ukrainian highlanders, so I suppose the inhabitants of Dacia from 2000-3000 yrs ago also had E paternal lines.
R1B - clearly from Scythians and Celts, that were assimilated as Dacians, clearly present in Dacia,2000-3000 yrs ago.
About R1B-U106 - even 5-6% of paternal lines of Romania. Is not possible to be brought by West Germanics, so that should be of Dacians origin, since I doubt SE Celtic tribes and Scythians had such Y DNA.
Daca s-ar putea gasi limba dacilor, ar fi un inceput.Autostrazi, da,sunt bune, par egzample când se sapa pentru a se construi Autostrada Transilvania s-au facut diverse descoperiri arheologice.
Deci si constructia de autostrazi poate duce la descoperiri referitoare la daci :) .

'it is said that Oltenia is most pure Dacian ancestry'. I have same intuitive opinion, but unfortunately it lacks scientific evidences. That can easily be resolved with only a minor implication from officials; but, off course, no chance for such an individualistic and materialistic people. Sorry, but that's a fact. Nobody real wanted before, and nobody want now, after 'commie era', to start some ample researches in this direction, despite the huge funds EU made available for years...there is no ancient prelevated DNA for this purposes which can solve the question. If you can't siphon/steal some public money why bother for such endeavor ?
'Either that the Dacians were speaking East Germanic either that the Dacians were speaking Satem, clearly they had R1A.' How's that ? I don't see any scientific demonstration till now. From you're perspective dacians were a mix of DNA peoples, ideea that i don't support. Maybe late dacians, from Burebistas to Decebalus, after they mixed with many others (celts, scythians, etc), but the 'old' ones from 500BC were not ! Those 'proto'dacians have to be taking really into account. And from that perspective needs to be compared with the other thracians from south Danube, the 'original' thracians. Again, nobody seems to have any work in this direction.
'About R1B-U106 - even 5-6% of paternal lines of Romania. Is not possible to be brought by West Germanics, so that should be of Dacians origin, since I doubt SE Celtic tribes and Scythians had such Y DNA.' I don't see the logic here.
Si da, ar fi grozav sa stim care a fost limba dacilor, in sfarsit, dupa atatea supozitii. La cata preocupare exista nu vad nicio sansa in viitorul apropiat. Am fost de fata cand s-au facut descoperiri la autostrada, am facut si fotografii (ce inspiratie !), dar cam atat. Nu a existat nicio ulterioara comunicare, prezentare sau continuare a investigatiilor. Tipic romanesc. Adica v-ai s-amar !

[LeoJ]

There are dubious, provocative characters who threatens and insults members, deletes their posts inventing delusional accusations, insults different ethnic groups, insult and excludes members of the forum if they are of a different opinion than they are, even changing members' posts; all at their own discretion, and many of their treaths and insults was deleted afterwards. There are some examples of a borderless naughty and such "scientific beans" are emanating from them everyday: "Are some of you homeless bkz you've been kicked off all the other sites? Fair warning: keep up with the t-roll posts and you'll be out of here in short order, whether it's a bunch of you sickos, or just one sick, twisted jerk with multiple personality disorder. No one is interested in playing your juvenile games." members/28734-Angela "By all means keep down-voting my posts, "Laberia", and "Gidai", and sundry others for other posts. With your reputation scores it turns out you give me

Are you finished with these bullshit, comrade ?

[JajarBingan]

Because they share an identical haplotype indicating low TMRCA.


They are indeed under L23 but they are all L51+ and Z2103-! Also all bar one R-U152 are under Germanic U106. And one of those L2's is my supposed distant cousin from maternal line.






So it is the opposite in this sample as well as in other Romanian samples R-L51 (Western) totally dominates the R-Z2103 (Eastern). On a sample of 60 ethnic Romanian R1b's from this and other studies only 18 can be classified as Z2103 (though one might be PF7562) and 42/60 (70 %) are safely R-L51.


R1b is robust in ethnic Romanians but Z2103 is not. Higher R-L51 is likely due to Roman, Germanic, earlier (pre-Celtic) Urnfield and Celtic influences.


Two from that sample are R-Z2705 dys392=11 and they have Southern origin, there is another of this cluster from another study.


Of others R-Y14300 is present (TMRCA 1950 ybp of two Romanians). R-FGC14590, including in that sample. And also few likely R-Y4364. These might be trail of an ancient proto-Phrygian/Armenian movement before they reached Asia Minor.


If one goes by Baltic connection maybe Z2103 is not originator of Thracian/Dacian language but finding suitable clades is not easy. Not long ago in a Serb one basal R-S24902* appeared with no relatives closer than 4400 ybp, and this clade doesn't seem Slavic at all.




Well it's not too much of a mystery how it got there just how it expanded. In that sample there I got one cousin from Cluj who is among the most distant members of my own cluster and that area looks like my own distant home. Generally Carpathian area is place of great diversity of CTS9320 clades in general. Up to 4 basal clades of Z17107+, Z38456- including my own. Several clades of BY4526. Few Z16988's too. Some S19928's (one BY4518 cluster and one Romanian BY4518-), one E-Z17264 Ashkenazi clade from W.Ukraine (but with a match in Spain so not sure where are they from) and also in Romanians from other studies there are two CTS9320* clades (neither is yet on YFull), they both have close matches in Bulgarians. One looks actually Dacian because there is a Szekely and 3 Romanians and only 1 Bulgarian and 1 Macedonian. So CTS9320 with TMRCA of 3000 ybp is almost certainly connected to either Gava or Basarabi (or both) cultures. In Dolj all 6 V13's look likely CTS9320. And one is certainly CTS9320*. That sample includes one Y3183*. One is likely E-Y35953, at least one FGC11450, many are hard to classify on those 19 STR's etc. There is some diversity of Z5018 in Romania too.

Most likely E-V13 ultimately stems from Cetina culture as has been suggested before, interestingly this culture had Corded Ware (so R-Z280) influence and its burial practices included equal amount of cremation and inhumation, unusual in comparison to many contemporary cultures around.




Actually 8 are M458 because one L260+ is identical to one "M17" so that must be a mistake as they are both from Cluj and have a distinct haplotype.
In that sample no less than 6 from Dolj are R-YP611>YP3987 while the two from Cluj are also R-YP611>YP3987 just a different cluster. As you can see on YFull YP3987 is currently entirely populated by Serbs from a numerous cluster from Bosnia and Western Serbia. Also it seems a more distant YP3987 is found in Aromanians and a Greek.

Of M458's 3 seem L260, rest CTS11962+. Generally clades like these are Slavic. For some older "Baltic" connection one has to look at some Z92's or some other Z280's that occur in Lithuanians or Latvians.





There is a Basarabi cluster in that study which is likely of recent Southern origin as it matches Albanians, Greeks etc. Others may have older presence actually.







Whenever you see a cluster dotted with Eastern European flags while being distantly related to various older Middle Eastern clades with a low TMRCA you are likely looking at Jewish cluster. I haven't even checked but I bet it is Jewish.







In terms of some cluster having diversity in Dacia while being younger and expansive CTS9320's come to mind. In Ruthenians for example (sample 200 in a study) if one takes away I2a Din's, R1a's, I1's E-V13 rises to 38 % (and more on their FTDNA project). Doing same in Lvov sample from Ukraine makes E-V13 20 %. Ofc few R1a's are not Slavic. For example Albanians have high V13 but also low Slavic influence, once that is taken into account others catch up as Albanians have lowest Slavic Y-DNA influence. Many J2a/J2b's might be local too. R-L23* and likely few older R-L51's who arrived there in LBA/EIA. Possibly few R1a's with Baltic links too but very hard to identify those for now.

Thank you, first time seeing this reply, as I'm not coming often here.
Hopefully in 2020, we will get closer to the Y-DNA of Dacians. Apparently David Reich's lab is working on Roman period samples from the border of Moesia and Dacia, which were likely very similar if not the same people.
Unsurprisingly, leaked data suggests that most of the males fall under E-V13, with a minority of J-L283 and R-Z2103.

So the picture is getting clearer. The next mystery is J2a, as it makes up about 70% of the J2 in Romania. Minoans and Myceneans had J2a in them, and considering that Minoans spoke a non-Indo-European language, perhaps it was carried by a wave of Anatolians during the Copper Age. Ancient J2a samples close to Romania were found in:

• Hungary (around lake Balaton): I1902, Lengyel, 4800-4500 BCE
• Croatia (next to the border with Serbia): I5078, Sopot, 4692-4546 calBCE
• Hungary (central): BR-2, Kyjatice Culture, Hungary BA, 1270-1110 BC
• Ukraine (central): MJ-16, Western Scythian, 788-413 BC

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

[Aspurg]

Thank you, first time seeing this reply, as I'm not coming often here.
Hopefully in 2020, we will get closer to the Y-DNA of Dacians. Apparently David Reich's lab is working on Roman period samples from the border of Moesia and Dacia, which were likely very similar if not the same people.
Unsurprisingly, leaked data suggests that most of the males fall under E-V13, with a minority of J-L283 and R-Z2103.

So the picture is getting clearer. The next mystery is J2a, as it makes up about 70% of the J2 in Romania. Minoans and Myceneans had J2a in them, and considering that Minoans spoke a non-Indo-European language, perhaps it was carried by a wave of Anatolians during the Copper Age. Ancient J2a samples close to Romania were found in:

• Hungary (around lake Balaton): I1902, Lengyel, 4800-4500 BCE
• Croatia (next to the border with Serbia): I5078, Sopot, 4692-4546 calBCE
• Hungary (central): BR-2, Kyjatice Culture, Hungary BA, 1270-1110 BC
• Ukraine (central): MJ-16, Western Scythian, 788-413 BC

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Well that was expected, Daco-Thracian areas have much higher ratio of E-V13 to J-L283 than Illyrian areas.. And even with less people tested V13 under CTS5856 is more diverse there.

Ossetian CTS9320* strikes the mortal blow to the idea that this hg is anything other than Daco-Mysian in origin, even proto-Dacian. Ossetian CTS9320* will never fit into any Illyrians..
Daco-Thracian language might have been spread by R-Z93 and CTS9320 if it is a later language (post-Mycenean collapse).

J2a is complicated, and I know the most common Romanian haplotype of J2a is not what you might imagine:
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 15 11 14 11 31 17 14 20 9 15 9 21

J-Y18402

This cluster is found in various Roma populations in high percentage. Out of 34 Romanian J2a's from studies this cluster is found in 7. Not some wonder as there are 10 H-M52 from studies in Romanians..

J2a is very diverse in Romania and some haplotypes look definitely local.