Shulaverian Hypothesis in Maps

[Olympus Mons]

Not always easy to convey Hypothesis.
I made a Shulaverian Hypothesis in Maps.
Here:
https://shulaverianhypothesis.blogs.sapo.pt/


Comments are welcomed.

 

[markod]

You're making the same mistake as the people who stubbornly ascribe early IE to one or more of the Mesolithic cultures in the Russian plains. There's just no evidence for or against it, and even with all the data in the world one couldn't possibly test or falsify the hypothesis. Many renowned Indo-Europeanists are guilty of this too.

As a general rule I tend to dismiss any writing that seeks to locate something like "Pre-PIE" in an archaeological culture. These questions are just beyond our reach.

 

[Olympus Mons]

You're making the same mistake as the people who stubbornly ascribe early IE to one or more of the Mesolithic cultures in the Russian plains. There's just no evidence for or against it, and even with all the data in the world one couldn't possibly test or falsify the hypothesis. Many renowned Indo-Europeanists are guilty of this too.

As a general rule I tend to dismiss any writing that seeks to locate something like "Pre-PIE" in an archaeological culture. These questions are just beyond our reach.

Markod, Cant fight you on linguistics. However they (and Max Planck MPI-SHH and Broad MIT/Harvard ) are betting on a single population 8000 years ago. I am just the one fighting for the last 3 years to it to be Shulaveri-Shomu. that is what my shulaverian Hypothesis is all about.

Have you Been at the site and follow all the slides with the dates? - (6500bc. 5200bc, 6000bc, etc...) ?

 

[Olympus Mons]

...As a general rule I tend to dismiss any writing that seeks to locate something like "Pre-PIE" in an archaeological culture. These questions are just beyond our reach.

Pre-PIE only means that if some culture/tribe existed that ended up being the ones by 6000BC using first the anchoring words that we call PIE, than that tribe should be the one we can call Pre-PIE. I agree its a difficult, if not bad, concept...

 

[halfalp]

Let's found Proto-Pre-PIE after we locate Pre-PIE.

 

[johen]

Did the Shulaveri culture also have sunhead and animals culture also?

It is so important that the culture is closely related with ancient altai & lake baikal culture, mesoamerican civilization, Hindu civilization to scythian(their elite’s elongated bare head) and even Mongol. Nomad or Aryan hair braid(s) of bare head means sun’s ray(s). Of course, it originated in Malta artifacts.

Nowadays, archaeologists distinguish at least three Bronze Age pictorial traditions on the basis of style, and demonstrate some parallels in the material culture. The earliest is the Yamna–Afanasievo tradition, which is characterized by the symbolic depiction of sun-headed men and animals. Another tradition is a record of the Andronovo people (Kuzmina 1994; Novozhenov 2012), who depicted in it their everyday life and the importance of wheeled transport (Novozhenov 2014a, b).

 

[Olympus Mons]

Did the Shulaveri culture also have sunhead and animals culture also?

It is so important that the culture is closely related with ancient altai & lake baikal culture, mesoamerican civilization, Hindu civilization to scythian(their elite’s elongated bare head) and even Mongol. Nomad or Aryan hair braid(s) of bare head means sun’s ray(s). Of course, it originated in Malta artifacts.

Don't understand your question/comment.
From Shulaveri to Yamnaya goes 1500 years...

 

[johen]

Don't understand your question/comment.
From Shulaveri to Yamnaya goes 1500 years...

Do you mean that Shulaveri culture had nothing to do with Yamna?

 

[Olympus Mons]

Do you mean that Shulaveri culture had nothing to do with Yamna?

Follow the link and read the "slides" and look at the Maps.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Halafians if anything would have migrated to the Southern Caucasus, not the other way round (if that's what you're suggesting, as it is hard to tell).

Yes, there is a definite and potentially migratory connection between Shulaveri and Halaf, but how can you be sure that that connection is via R1b-L23? Surely R1b-L23's phylogeny points to a West Asian, and specifically South Caucasian, origin, but the Middle East is and was a mosaic of haplogroups, so I don't see how you can be sure Shulaveri was the source of R1b-L23 and not, say, one of the cultures that replaced it.

We can say that, perhaps, R1b-L23 was present in the Southern Caucasus at some point before Yamnaya, but any precision beyond that is guesswork. People on here presumably know that I associate L23 with the spread of smelting technology (and the swastika), so I'd be more in favour of a Chalcolithic presence of L23 in the Caucasus (Leyla-Tepe) succeeding a typically West Asian presence from the Neolithic (Shulaveri). Y DNA J2b would be a remnant of Shulaveri influence on these L23 Chalcolithic Caucasians, who would later "colonise" the Steppes as part of the Yamnaya culture. These L23 folk would also go South as part of the Kura-Araxes culture, leading to people like the Anatolians and the Gutians. That's my speculation, at least.

 

[halfalp]

The Oestriminis of Ophiussa.

 

[Olympus Mons]

Halafians if anything would have migrated to the Southern Caucasus, not the other way round (if that's what you're suggesting, as it is hard to tell).

Halaf, just appeared over 200 years prior to Shulaveri Shomu (so ,6200bc) and showed different traits to them, although not fully Anatolian as well. At 2600BC then it starts to show amongst them some round architecture mudbrick houses (so, Shulaveri) and then not much later the transformational period called the Halaf-to-Ubaid transitional period marks the the Ubaid Expansion into that region, as well as what had already happened in Hassuna and Samarra further east that were by then fully Ubaid (snake self-image and iconography). latest findings in Azerbaijan steppes or plains south into Karabakh, is vast Shulaveri pastoral assemblage showing how they were expanding as pastoral way of life. In fact is the latest work of Lyonnet and Ricci in Azerbaijan.
To be clear, Halaf was overtaken fast by Ubaid that is why I always have them as the main culprit for Shulaverian vanishing.

Yes, there is a definite and potentially migratory connection between Shulaveri and Halaf, but how can you be sure that that connection is via R1b-L23? Surely R1b-L23's phylogeny points to a West Asian, and specifically South Caucasian, origin, but the Middle East is and was a mosaic of haplogroups, so I don't see how you can be sure Shulaveri was the source of R1b-L23 and not, say, one of the cultures that replaced it.

Yes, that is what makes you an Armenian Hypothesis kind of guy. and not at all a Shulaverian Hypothesis guy So, remember that in the future. I will.

We can say that, perhaps, R1b-L23 was present in the Southern Caucasus at some point before Yamnaya, but any precision beyond that is guesswork. People on here presumably know that I associate L23 with the spread of smelting technology (and the swastika), so I'd be more in favour of a Chalcolithic presence of L23 in the Caucasus (Leyla-Tepe) succeeding a typically West Asian presence from the Neolithic (Shulaveri). Y DNA J2b would be a remnant of Shulaveri influence on these L23 Chalcolithic Caucasians, who would later "colonise" the Steppes as part of the Yamnaya culture. These L23 folk would also go South as part of the Kura-Araxes culture, leading to people like the Anatolians and the Gutians. That's my speculation, at least.

Yes. I will remember that in the future. I just hoped many more would also come forward like you. Because in the future, many will say they knew all along about the Shulaveri.

A note: why do you think there are two blanks spots on papers published and is not due to lack of samples, for sure.
those are Neolithic transcaucasia (6000bc-5000BC) and Chalcolithic south Balkans (4500-3800BC).
Just wait and see.

Thanks for input.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Halaf, just appeared over 200 years prior to Shulaveri Shomu (so ,6200bc) and showed different traits to them, although not fully Anatolian as well. At 2600BC then it starts to show amongst them some round architecture mudbrick houses (so, Shulaveri) and then not much later the transformational period called the Halaf-to-Ubaid transitional period marks the the Ubaid Expansion into that region, as well as what had already happened in Hassuna and Samarra further east that were by then fully Ubaid (snake self-image and iconography). latest findings in Azerbaijan steppes or plains south into Karabakh, is vast Shulaveri pastoral assemblage showing how they were expanding as pastoral way of life. In fact is the latest work of Lyonnet and Ricci in Azerbaijan.
To be clear, Halaf was overtaken fast by Ubaid that is why I always have them as the main culprit for Shulaverian vanishing.



Yes, that is what makes you an Armenian Hypothesis kind of guy. and not at all a Shulaverian Hypothesis guy So, remember that in the future. I will.



Yes. I will remember that in the future. I just hoped many more would also come forward like you. Because in the future, many will say they knew all along about the Shulaveri.

A note: why do you think there are two blanks spots on papers published and is not due to lack of samples, for sure.
those are Neolithic transcaucasia (6000bc-5000BC) and Chalcolithic south Balkans (4500-3800BC).
Just wait and see.

Thanks for input.

You're way overly confident, almost schizotypal in your belief. I don't know the answers, but odds are (as in, over 50% chance) Shulaveri will not be the magical answer to all of this. I wonder what would happen with you then.

Also about the Armenian hypothesis - I support it, yes, but I'd rather call it the Caucasian hypothesis, as I think that Armenian actually came from the Phrygians (and so ultimately from Yamnaya via the Balkans). But I'd guess that the Anatolian languages (as well as Gutian for example) came from the Kura-Araxes expansion, NOT from Yamnaya. I'm not sure about the Tocharians, but I'm leaning towards them being Yamnaya derived.

 

[Olympus Mons]

You're way overly confident, almost schizotypal in your belief. I don't know the answers, but odds are (as in, over 50% chance) Shulaveri will not be the magical answer to all of this. I wonder what would happen with you then.

Don't worry. I am just doing my best to make a footprint. There is no time to be mild or ambiguous.
Believe me, if I am right, there will be no lack of people downplaying me and pretending they also knew all along and refusing to use the term Shulaverian hypothesis instead opting for Caucasian or Transcaucasus or even Armenian hypothesis. If I am wrong... I am wrong. Won't loose a minute sleep over it.

so about the Armenian hypothesis - I support it, yes, but I'd rather call it the Caucasian hypothesis, as I think that Armenian actually came from the Phrygians (and so ultimately from Yamnaya via the Balkans). But I'd guess that the Anatolian languages (as well as Gutian for example) came from the Kura-Araxes expansion, NOT from Yamnaya. I'm not sure about the Tocharians, but I'm leaning towards them being Yamnaya derived.

Good. So I don't have to worry about you. You are an Armenian hypothesis guy and if shulaveri returns as important as I think it will, you will be on my side making the distinction between Armenian and shulaverian hypothesis.

 

[Olympus Mons]

... a second version looks even better.
https://shulaverianhypothesis.blogs.sapo.pt/