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Thread: Brain scans show social exclusion creates jihadists

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    Post Brain scans show social exclusion creates jihadists



    The Guardian: Brain scans show social exclusion creates jihadists, say researchers

    "For years western policymakers have tried to establish what causes individuals to be radicalised. Now a pioneering study has used medical science to gain fresh insight into the process – in the brains of potential jihadists.

    University College London (UCL) researchers were part of an international team that used neuroimaging techniques to map how the brains of radicalised individuals respond to being socially marginalised. The findings, they claim, confirm that exclusion is a leading factor in creating violent jihadists.

    The research challenges the prevailing belief among western policymakers that other variables, such as poverty, religious conservatism and even psychosis, are dominant drivers of jihadism. “This finally dispels such wrongheaded ideas,” said the study’s co-lead author, Nafees Hamid of UCL. “The first ever neuroimaging study on a radicalised population shows extreme pro-group behaviour seems to intensify after social exclusion.”
    "

    [...]

    "Using ethnographic fieldwork and psychological surveys, researchers identified 535 young Muslim men in and around Barcelona, the Spanish city where in 2017 Isis supporters killed 13 and wounded about 100 people in the Las Ramblas district.

    Of those identified, 38 second-generation Moroccan-origin men, who had “expressed a willingness to engage in or facilitate violence associated with jihadist causes”, agreed to have their brains scanned. The results showed a striking effect when they were socially excluded by Spaniards while playing a virtual simulation called Cyberball, a ball toss game with three other players who abruptly stopped throwing them the ball.

    Later scans showed that the neurological impact of being excluded meant that when issues were raised that the individual had not previously considered inviolable – such as introducing Islamic teaching in schools or unrestricted construction of mosques – they became far more important and were deemed similar to “sacred” and worth fighting for.

    Previous research by the team on Israel-Palestinian, India-Pakistan and Kurds-Isis conflicts found that when values deemed “sacred” are violated hostility becomes intractable. “This latest research has shown how values start to become sacred and indicates that social exclusion makes non-sacred values behave like sacred values, which in turn makes people recalcitrant and prone to violence,” said Hamid.


    He called for the study, a multi-university project involving scientific research organisation Artis International and partly funded by the US Department of Defence, to be used to help ensure social exclusion was factored into policies to prevent radicalisation.

    The links between extremism, social exclusion and radicalisation corroborate some previous research with one report commissioned by Manchester mayor Andy Burnham after the Arena attack identifying a lack of social integration. “Far from needing to improve economic conditions, combat ideology, or medically treat extremists, focusing on alleviating interpersonal discrimination can keep those with extremist leanings on the non-violent and negotiable side of the fence,” said Hamid.
    "


    That's definitely an approach worth considering.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Guardian: Brain scans show social exclusion creates jihadists, say researchers

    "For years western policymakers have tried to establish what causes individuals to be radicalised. Now a pioneering study has used medical science to gain fresh insight into the process – in the brains of potential jihadists.

    University College London (UCL) researchers were part of an international team that used neuroimaging techniques to map how the brains of radicalised individuals respond to being socially marginalised. The findings, they claim, confirm that exclusion is a leading factor in creating violent jihadists.

    The research challenges the prevailing belief among western policymakers that other variables, such as poverty, religious conservatism and even psychosis, are dominant drivers of jihadism. “This finally dispels such wrongheaded ideas,” said the study’s co-lead author, Nafees Hamid of UCL. “The first ever neuroimaging study on a radicalised population shows extreme pro-group behaviour seems to intensify after social exclusion.”
    "

    [...]

    "Using ethnographic fieldwork and psychological surveys, researchers identified 535 young Muslim men in and around Barcelona, the Spanish city where in 2017 Isis supporters killed 13 and wounded about 100 people in the Las Ramblas district.

    Of those identified, 38 second-generation Moroccan-origin men, who had “expressed a willingness to engage in or facilitate violence associated with jihadist causes”, agreed to have their brains scanned. The results showed a striking effect when they were socially excluded by Spaniards while playing a virtual simulation called Cyberball, a ball toss game with three other players who abruptly stopped throwing them the ball.

    Later scans showed that the neurological impact of being excluded meant that when issues were raised that the individual had not previously considered inviolable – such as introducing Islamic teaching in schools or unrestricted construction of mosques – they became far more important and were deemed similar to “sacred” and worth fighting for.

    Previous research by the team on Israel-Palestinian, India-Pakistan and Kurds-Isis conflicts found that when values deemed “sacred” are violated hostility becomes intractable. “This latest research has shown how values start to become sacred and indicates that social exclusion makes non-sacred values behave like sacred values, which in turn makes people recalcitrant and prone to violence,” said Hamid.


    He called for the study, a multi-university project involving scientific research organisation Artis International and partly funded by the US Department of Defence, to be used to help ensure social exclusion was factored into policies to prevent radicalisation.

    The links between extremism, social exclusion and radicalisation corroborate some previous research with one report commissioned by Manchester mayor Andy Burnham after the Arena attack identifying a lack of social integration. “Far from needing to improve economic conditions, combat ideology, or medically treat extremists, focusing on alleviating interpersonal discrimination can keep those with extremist leanings on the non-violent and negotiable side of the fence,” said Hamid.
    "


    That's definitely an approach worth considering.
    Very interesting indeed. Treat them as members of the group, and they will be less antagonistic.

    It doesn't always work, of course. I'm reminded of the employee in California who had just been given a huge baby shower.

    Still, that's the tack to take, I think.


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    What's stopping them from going to another country where their ways are the rule?

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    What's stopping them from going to another country where their ways are the rule?
    Why did your ancestors go to the United States? I know why my parents and I came here: escape from lack of economic opportunity and a class rigid society, so there you go.

    Why did the British and German colonists almost exterminate the native inhabitants.

    The rules only apply to everyone buy you and the groups of which you approve?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Maybe the problem does not lie only in social exclusion...

    Quran (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."

    https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/p...onversion.aspx
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Maybe the problem does not lie only in social exclusion...

    Quran (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."

    https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/p...onversion.aspx
    I won't say Islam and particularly the Islamic jurisprudence cannot ble blamed at all, but to be fair that works mostly as a moran and ideological justification than as a trigger. I could easily find several passages from the Bible that are just as violent and sectarian (or even more so, some of them even prescribe killing the entire heathen population that were enemies of the Israelites, including babies), yet you don't see many Christian zealots actively involved in terrorist groups and making "holy war" these days. Those parts of the Bible are simply ignored by most, and "interpreted under restricted contexts", just like moderate and "reformed" ("Quranists") Muslims usually do. Religions are essentially what the believers think they are and how they want to see them. They don't have an "essence" that is totally disassociated from the thinking ways and the social situation of the believers in it. Christianity in 2019 is absolutely not the same "religious/ideological experience" it meant to people in the notoriously fundamentalist Reformation Era (roughly 1520-1660), the textual passages that are prioritized by the faithful are not the same, far less the interpretation given to them.
    Last edited by Ygorcs; 09-01-19 at 05:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    What's stopping them from going to another country where their ways are the rule?
    I'm not sure if you're aware of that, but the vast majority of fundamentalist groups, jihadis and terrorist attacks in the world are to be found in Muslim-majority nations that are already pretty conservative. It's not a Western phenomenon, though some of its tentacles have spread to the West. So it's not like they'd be satisfied "going to another country". Their fundamentalist idealized society does not exist. Some of them even oppose the most radically fundamentalist Islamic state of all, Saudi Arabia, so I'm sure that ignoring the social and individual reasons that make,some people more prone to becoming jihadis, because "they can just be deported" or something like that, will just backfire really bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The research challenges the prevailing belief among western policymakers that other variables, such as poverty, religious conservatism and even psychosis, are dominant drivers of jihadism. “This finally dispels such wrongheaded ideas,” said the study’s co-lead author, Nafees Hamid of UCL. “The first ever neuroimaging study on a radicalised population shows extreme pro-group behaviour seems to intensify after social exclusion.”"
    It's so nice when we see empirical science confirming the knowledgeable but more subjective opinions of some experts on a given matter. Besides those other reasons that have been suggested, social exclusion, personal frustration (feeling like a "loser" in the society that exists aroudn them, prompting some to try to replace it with something else), lack of enough cultural/social integration in one's personal life, a feeling of "not belonging here", all of these have often been speculated as prompters of a shift toward fundamentalist behavior.

    That probably also explains why teenagers and young people are so prone to falling prey to jihadist propaganda, since the lack of self-confidence and the need to "fit in" is so much bigger in youngsters than in more mature people.

    In my opinion, it's very clear that places with more "assimilationist" (integration + gradual, slow-motion dilution) approaches (not just state policies, sometimes it's just a social consensus enacted spontaneously according to the people's way of life) tend to experience fewer (or at least less serious) issues with radicalized people of minority background, particularly religious ones.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I won't say Islam and particularly the Islamic jurisprudence cannot ble blamed at all, but to be fair that works mostly as a moran and ideological justification than as a trigger. I could easily find several passages from the Bible that are just as violent and sectarian (or even more so, some of them even prescribe killing the entire heathen population that were enemies of the Israelites, including babies), yet you don't see many Christian zealots actively involved in terrorist groups and making "holy war" these days. Those parts of the Bible are simply ignored by most, and "interpreted under restricted contexts", just like moderate and "reformed" ("Quranists") Muslims usually do. Religions are essentially what the believers think they are and how they want to see them. They don't have an "essence" that is totally disassociated from the thinking ways and the social situation of the believers in it. Christianity in 2019 is absolutely not the same "religious/ideological experience" it meant to people in the notoriously fundamentalist Reformation Era (roughly 1520-1660), the textual passages that are prioritized by the faithful are not the same, far less the interpretation given to them.
    I agree with you entirely. I was not suggesting Christianity was blameless. The Holy Inquisition, the Crusades, etc. , left their own distinct trails of blood. Hindus are not above reproach either, and Jewish fundamentalists provide strong support for the "colonists" who settle, with the assistance of the army, in areas that were supposed to be protected by the Oslo Agreements. My view is that religions have been one of the main vectors of violence all over this planet since the beginnings of time. My own "religion" doesn't extend beyond marveling at the beauties, miracles, perfections of "Creation". I don't need any kind of priest for that.

    This said, one of the weak points of Islam is that, owing to its inner divisions, it lacks a centralized authority that could be authoritative in proposing a modernized interpretation on its scriptures, and speak publicly in its name. This leaves room for the most extremist elements (the Iranian ayatollahs, Al Qaida's leaders, etc.) to make their voices heard, and their options are seldom the mild ones you would hope for.

    After the killings in France, we expected the leaders of the so-called Islam of France to loudly condemn the attacks. Their silence was deafening.

    So I wonder whether social exclusion pushes some Muslims towards fundamentalism, or whether Islam, such as it is currently in western Europe (with its outdated values in terms of allegiance to a secular political authority, the place of women, etc...), is in itself a hindrance to integration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    This said, one of the weak points of Islam is that, owing to its inner divisions, it lacks a centralized authority that could be authoritative in proposing a modernized interpretation on its scriptures, and speak publicly in its name. This leaves room for the most extremist elements (the Iranian ayatollahs, Al Qaida's leaders, etc.) to make their voices heard, and their options are seldom the mild ones you would hope for.
    I think you are slightly mistaken about this particular point. 90% of all Muslims are Sunni, and the effective influence of the Al-Azhar Imam in the Sunni world is arguably much greater than, for example, the sway held by the Pope over contemporary Catholics. The problems lie somewhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I think you are slightly mistaken about this particular point. 90% of all Muslims are Sunni, and the effective influence of the Al-Azhar Imam in the Sunni world is arguably much greater than, for example, the sway held by the Pope over contemporary Catholics. The problems lie somewhere else.
    I wish I could agree, but there's only to remember how the Al-Azhar Imam Ahmed El Tayeb and Mohamed Morsi (of the Muslim Brothers) got along during the latter's short-lived presidency in Egypt to realize that even in the same country and city, unity and agreement are far from being achieved, by a long shot.

    Even the very radical Salafists are split into three very divergent sub-currents of doctrine that can't seem to agree on a common line of action.

    In France, the CFCM (Conseil Francais du Culte Musulman) is composed of elected representatives from six different organizations, which hate each other's guts. It is hard for its president, in such conditions, to speak in everybody's name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    So I wonder whether social exclusion pushes some Muslims towards fundamentalism, or whether Islam, such as it is currently in western Europe (with its outdated values in terms of allegiance to a secular political authority, the place of women, etc...), is in itself a hindrance to integration.
    I'd say one issue feeds directly on the other, it's like a vicious circle. People with at least some tendency towards fundamentalist behavior (and there's a lot of them in every society) are much more likely to give more time and energy to hear the divisive but emotionally charged preaching of fundamentalist clergymen and "Islamic scholars" than the much more reasonable, but also much less "charismatic" preaching of the moderate Muslim scholars and imams, particularly those of the reformist Quranist movement, who want to get rid of most of the post-Quranic scriptures written after Muhammad's death or at least strip them of their holy and thus indisputable status (as you must know, the vast majority of the most problematic texts of Islam, those which are used to justify and legitimize much of what the fundamentalist groups do, are found in the Sunnah, the ahadith and the Islamic jurisprudence generally written centuries after Muhammad died). A population that, feeling socially excluded and constantly reminded of how "different" they are, is looking for some strong group identity will hardly favor those who are most moderate and low-profile. They want inflamed, hardcore ideologies that fit their resentment and frustration.

    Therefore, I think there's a kind of a dialectics going on there: the more they are socially exclued and remain non-integrated, the more they favor fundamentalism, and the more the average local Muslim is a fundamentalist or at least a conservative totally out of touch with the broader society, the more they are unlikely to be welcomed and assimilated by the dominant non-Muslim society around them. It's really complicated. In my opinion a crackdown on fundamentalist-backed mosques and madrasses and incentives to the diffusion of reformed/modernized Islam, coupled with a real effort to integrate Muslims since their early childhood, is necessary, because Islam won't just disappear in the thin air. Therefore, it is the Muslims' mindset and the way Islam is thought and practiced that must change. That vicious circle must be interrupted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    I wish I could agree, but there's only to remember how the Al-Azhar Imam Ahmed El Tayeb and Mohamed Morsi (of the Muslim Brothers) got along during the latter's short-lived presidency in Egypt to realize that even in the same country and city, unity and agreement are far from being achieved, by a long shot.

    Even the very radical Salafists are split into three very divergent sub-currents of doctrine that can't seem to agree on a common line of action.

    In France, the CFCM (Conseil Francais du Culte Musulman) is composed of elected representatives from six different organizations, which hate each other's guts. It is hard for its president, in such conditions, to speak in everybody's name.
    What did you think, 1.8 billion people with corpselike obedience to one man? Excepting Shia Muslims and some smaller groups, Muslims are doctrinally quite unified, moreso than other religious groups.

    It's quite unrealistic to expect a quarter of the world's population to employ a common line of action. How's that even supposed to work? Most of them can't even communicate due to the various language barriers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    In my opinion a crackdown on fundamentalist-backed mosques and madrasses and incentives to the diffusion of reformed/modernized Islam, coupled with a real effort to integrate Muslims since their early childhood, is necessary, because Islam won't just disappear in the thin air. Therefore, it is the Muslims' mindset and the way Islam is thought and practiced that must change. That vicious circle must be interrupted.
    Sure... Problem is : up to 50% of the money spent on building mosques in France comes from abroad, mainly Saudi Arabia. And on the occasion of the latest Ramadan, 150 extra imams were flown to France straight from Algeria to officiate during the celebrations. As long as such foreign influences endure, it will be hard to alter the "mindset". It would take some political courage to straighten things up, but French Muslims vote!

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    It's quite unrealistic to expect a quarter of the world's population to employ a common line of action. How's that even supposed to work? Most of them can't even communicate due to the various language barriers.
    My point, exactly. Anyone who would dare/attempt to renovate the dogmas and make them compatible enough with western secular democracies to ensure easier integration for migrants, put and end to terrorism, and pacify international relations, would have to be not only tremendously influential and charismatic, but also brave enough to live with the fatwas that would be issued against them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    My point, exactly. Anyone who would dare/attempt to renovate the dogmas and make them compatible enough with western secular democracies to ensure easier integration for migrants, put and end to terrorism, and pacify international relations, would have to be not only tremendously influential and charismatic, but also brave enough to live with the fatwas that would be issued against them.
    I think the problem with that is that as soon as someone attempted to do such a thing, he'd cease being a Sunni Muslim. We are not talking about rustic dogmas, but doctrines that derive from the Quran and the Hadeeth which are indeed subjected to study and exegesis at the major Islamic universities. The ban against innovation as perhaps the worst sin in Islam, "bid'ah", makes it nearly impossible to adapt doctrine to fit western values when the contradictions are obvious. That makes a top-down reform in Islam about as realistic as expecting the Vatican to campaign for gay marriage or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I think the problem with that is that as soon as someone attempted to do such a thing, he'd cease being a Sunni Muslim. We are not talking about rustic dogmas, but doctrines that derive from the Quran and the Hadeeth which are indeed subjected to study and exegesis at the major Islamic universities. The injunction against innovation as perhaps the worst sin in Islam, "bid'ah", makes it nearly impossible to adapt doctrine to fit western values when the contradictions are obvious. That makes a top-down reform in Islam about as realistic as expecting the Vatican to campaign for gay marriage or something.
    Agreed. But as long as the doctrine remains unamended, tensions will endure in our western countries, and people will die.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Guardian: Brain scans show social exclusion creates jihadists, say researchers

    "For years western policymakers have tried to establish what causes individuals to be radicalised. Now a pioneering study has used medical science to gain fresh insight into the process – in the brains of potential jihadists.

    University College London (UCL) researchers were part of an international team that used neuroimaging techniques to map how the brains of radicalised individuals respond to being socially marginalised. The findings, they claim, confirm that exclusion is a leading factor in creating violent jihadists.

    The research challenges the prevailing belief among western policymakers that other variables, such as poverty, religious conservatism and even psychosis, are dominant drivers of jihadism. “This finally dispels such wrongheaded ideas,” said the study’s co-lead author, Nafees Hamid of UCL. “The first ever neuroimaging study on a radicalised population shows extreme pro-group behaviour seems to intensify after social exclusion.”
    "

    [...]

    "Using ethnographic fieldwork and psychological surveys, researchers identified 535 young Muslim men in and around Barcelona, the Spanish city where in 2017 Isis supporters killed 13 and wounded about 100 people in the Las Ramblas district.

    Of those identified, 38 second-generation Moroccan-origin men, who had “expressed a willingness to engage in or facilitate violence associated with jihadist causes”, agreed to have their brains scanned. The results showed a striking effect when they were socially excluded by Spaniards while playing a virtual simulation called Cyberball, a ball toss game with three other players who abruptly stopped throwing them the ball.

    Later scans showed that the neurological impact of being excluded meant that when issues were raised that the individual had not previously considered inviolable – such as introducing Islamic teaching in schools or unrestricted construction of mosques – they became far more important and were deemed similar to “sacred” and worth fighting for.

    Previous research by the team on Israel-Palestinian, India-Pakistan and Kurds-Isis conflicts found that when values deemed “sacred” are violated hostility becomes intractable. “This latest research has shown how values start to become sacred and indicates that social exclusion makes non-sacred values behave like sacred values, which in turn makes people recalcitrant and prone to violence,” said Hamid.


    He called for the study, a multi-university project involving scientific research organisation Artis International and partly funded by the US Department of Defence, to be used to help ensure social exclusion was factored into policies to prevent radicalisation.

    The links between extremism, social exclusion and radicalisation corroborate some previous research with one report commissioned by Manchester mayor Andy Burnham after the Arena attack identifying a lack of social integration. “Far from needing to improve economic conditions, combat ideology, or medically treat extremists, focusing on alleviating interpersonal discrimination can keep those with extremist leanings on the non-violent and negotiable side of the fence,” said Hamid.
    "


    That's definitely an approach worth considering.
    This might be the case for a small number. I can think of a few "white" Canadians who converted and became radicalized and were caught trying to to terrible things and wound up getting shot and getting killed. The reasons are much more complex for the non-locals causing problems in the EU though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    I agree with you entirely. I was not suggesting Christianity was blameless. The Holy Inquisition, the Crusades, etc. , left their own distinct trails of blood.
    Yes they did, as did the expansionist Muslims in Europe, prior to the Crusades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why did your ancestors go to the United States? I know why my parents and I came here: escape from lack of economic opportunity and a class rigid society, so there you go.

    Why did the British and German colonists almost exterminate the native inhabitants.

    The rules only apply to everyone buy you and the groups of which you approve?
    Germany didn't colonize your country, you know that, although they arrived in droves after the fact. That was actually one of the reasons why the Nazis were so envious of the British Empire, the Nazis wanted to be just like them, but had no colonies.

    No need to single out just the British here, as the vast majority of the colonists were regular families like the Italian ones who weren't responsible for murdering any single Native. Everyone living on US, or Canadian soil is taking full advantage of the opportunities offered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    This might be the case for a small number. I can think of a few "white" Canadians who converted and became radicalized and were caught trying to to terrible things and wound up getting shot and getting killed. The reasons are much more complex for the non-locals causing problems in the EU though.
    Yes, but even in Europe it's already been noticed that most of the terrorists who actually act on their plans are European-born people of immigrant background, and not immigrants or temporary travelers. And in the Middle East it has often been noticed that most of the leaders and thinkers in fundamentalist groups (the "soldiers", as in all wars and conflicts, tend to come from poor backgrounds, of course) actually hail from the educated middle and higher classes. Those facts fit with the main conclusion of the study, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Germany didn't colonize your country, you know that, although they arrived in droves after the fact. That was actually one of the reasons why the Nazis were so envious of the British Empire, the Nazis wanted to be just like them, but had no colonies.

    No need to single out just the British here, as the vast majority of the colonists were regular families like the Italian ones who weren't responsible for murdering any single Native. Everyone living on US, or Canadian soil is taking full advantage of the opportunities offered.
    Stop being so hyper-nationalistic. No insult was intended. I talked about the British and the Germans because that's the majority ancestry of the American white population, and those were the people who pushed out westward (including Germans), displacing the Amerindians, regular families or not. How do you think it worked? Individual homesteaders (families), struck out west for land. They came into conflict with the Amerindians, leading to raids and counter-raids. The militia, later army units, were sent in to "keep the peace". "Indian" wars then took place which the Europeans won. A "treaty" was signed, which either relegated the Amerindians to reservations or pushed them further westward. The aborigines in Australia and New Zealand didn't fare so well either.

    While you're reviewing the history of the European/Amerindian conflicts in the U.S., you should also check your history books about European colonization. Both Germany and Italy got into the game late, to their regret, but they did get some colonies in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, although they were the least attractive ones by some measures. The German ones were terribly run and extremely brutal, which cannot be said about British colonies. I actually think some of the African territories were run better by the British than they are now under self-rule, although it's highly politically incorrect to say so. As for the Italian ones, I can't say they were models of their type, but for some, to me incomprehensible reason, everyone I meet from them is extremely friendly and have mostly positive things to say about the Italian colonists. I say incomprehensible, because however else they behaved, they did take the best land in a lot of cases.

    All Americans and Canadians and Latin Americans are indeed taking full advantage of continents in which the first to arrive, the Amerindians, were killed, enslaved, or marginalized, even if not specifically by their own ancestors. No argument from me there.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    many of the Jihady, 2nd or 3rth generation of Muslim immigrants in western countries are small criminals and school dropouts from ghettos
    they are people who excluded themselves from the societies of their host country already during their youth, and often it is consequence of ghetto mentality
    they identify themselves with their ghetto and not with their host country, that is how they were educated within the ghetto

    I see the same in the US with people obsessed by 'white priviliges'
    they victimise themselves as a group and split society in a group of opressed vs a group of oppressors

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I'd like to know where this behaviour comes from :

    it happened last year

    Asia Bibi blasphemy case

    The Asia Bibi blasphemy case involves Pakistani Christian woman Aasiya Noreen (Urdu: آسیہ نورین‬‎ – Āsiyaah Naurīn [ˈɑːsiɑː nɔːˈriːn], born c. 1971;[1] commonly known as آسیہ بی بی‬ Āsia Bibī), who was convicted of blasphemy by a Pakistani court and was sentenced to death by hanging in 2010.[2] In October 2018, the Supreme Court of Pakistan acquitted her based on insufficient evidence,[3] though she will not be allowed to leave Pakistan until the verdict has been reviewed,[4] a process that can take years.

    Domestic response
    In response to the verdict, Islamist groups protested in the streets of Pakistan, "blocking roads and damaging infrastructure".[17][16][91] The Supreme Court decision sparked protests in Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi, Peshawar[92] and Multan. JUI-F chief Fazal-ur-Rehman called for "peaceful" protests stating that Bibi's release was "not acceptable at any cost". Tehreek-i-Labbaik Pakistan (TLP) chief Khadim Hussain Rizvi and Jamaat-i-Ahle Hadees also called for protests.[93] Protesters belonging to the TLP party said traffic will "remain blocked until Asia Bibi is hanged."[91] and Islamabad's main highway was blocked by "approximately a thousand club-wielding demonstrators".[87] Muhammad Afzal Qadri, a TLP co-founder, Afzal Qadri also called for the death of the three Supreme Court justices involved in hearing Bibi's appeal, stating "The Chief Justice and two others deserve to be killed ... Either their security guards, their drivers, or their chefs should kill them."[94][95] The Red Zone of Islamabad was sealed off from the public in order to keep protesters away, with paramilitary forces being deployed to this end.[85] Prime Minister Imran Khan in a televised address to the nation on the Asia Bibi verdict, issued a stark warning to the groups that were agitating against the decision. He concluded his address stating, "do not take the state to a point where it has no option but to take action".[96][97] On 1 November, the National Highways and Motorway Police advised commuters to "refrain from travelling on motorways and national highways" on account of "the law & order situation across the country".[98][99] Christian schools in Lahore "closed indefinitely" for safety reasons following the protests.[100] The government of Pakistan also shut down mobile phone networks on 2 November.[101]

    the power of this mob is so big, it can obstruct justice in Pakistan :

    Bar from leaving Pakistan
    On 2 November 2018, the Government of Pakistan under the administration of Imran Khan and the Islamist Tehreek-e-Labbaik political party, which encouraged the protests against Asia Bibi, came to an agreement that barred Asia Bibi from leaving the country, in addition to releasing Tehreek-e-Labbaik protesters.[5][20][21][22][23] Noor-ul-Haq Qadri, the religious affairs minister, and Muhammad Basharat Raja, Punjab's minister for law, signed the agreement on behalf of the government.[117][118] The deal includes expediting a motion in the court to place Asia Noreen on Pakistan's no fly list, known officially as the Exit Control List (ECL).[20][5] Pakistani authorities will not release Asia Noreen until the "Supreme Court makes a final review of its verdict" as "Ghulam Mustafa, the lawyer representing a provincial cleric in Punjab who had filed the initial blasphemy charges against Bibi, petitioned the Supreme Court requesting that the judges review her acquittal."[4] Similar reviews have taken years to process.[5] The TLP agreed to end its three-day protest sit-ins across the country and its leaders asked the protesters to disperse peacefully.[119]

    A plane from the United Kingdom reportedly arrived to pick up Asia Noreen after her acquittal but returned without her, as the Pakistani government currently still has her under detention as a result of the agreement with Tehreek-e-Labbaik.[120]

    so, explain me, has this anything to do with social exclusion?

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    In many "Muslim" countries it is against the law to "proselytize" for non-Muslim religions. Indeed, in Bangladesh, for example, there have been a few killings of people "suspected" of being Atheists.

    No one doubts any of this.

    The fact remains that when Muslims relocate to the west and are in environments where they have opportunity and are not excluded from the broader society they are more likely to integrate and to disavow such practices. I think we can draw a comparison between the U.S. and Europe, for example. I'm not saying ALL Muslims in the U.S. renounce this kind of ideology, but more of them do than in Europe, and the situation is worse in some European countries than in others.

    I really don't understand how you can fail to see that it is a two way street.

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