Barriers to crossbreeding with Neanderthals and Denisovans -discussion

[Punish Them 911]

https://bigthink.com/elise-bohan/wom...on-dating-apps

In both sexes, a narrower face with a thinner chin and a larger prolonged nose characterizes the predicted stereotype of high-intelligence, while a rather oval and broader face with a massive chin and a smallish nose characterizes the prediction of low-intelligence."

[markod]

Again, this has been exposed as an incorrect reconstruction of the Neanderthal ribcage based on recent CT analysis (from 2018).

If you choose to stick to old and disproven ideas, I cannot help you.
Would also like to add Neanderthals in West Asia weren't short like the European kind.

The Amud fossil is estimated to have stood around 178cm. This is a reconsfruction of Amud, obviously looks more evolved than Skhul-Qafzeh:

You might want to post evidence for once, those reconstructions tell us nothing. Every single Neanderthal skeleton I've seen shows those distinctive ribs. Another conspiracy?

[Punish Them 911]

[QUOTE=markod;563272]

Why would Prüfer and Pääbo lie? I just don't get it.

They didn't, you are name dropping an author who's study you didn't pay attention to.

Evidence? In most multivariate analyses erectus, heidelbergensis & neandertalensis are quite similar.

Not in cranial shape. We are talking about cranial shape. Neanderthal cranial form is derived and not present in heidelberhensis. Source: every analysis of heidelberg/Neanderthal remains, ever.
For a more recent example see:



http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...6190/1358.full

Then why do those features persist so much? It doesn't make sense.

They are better.

[Punish Them 911]

You might want to post evidence for once, those reconstructions tell us nothing. Every single Neanderthal skeleton I've seen shows those distinctive ribs. Another conspiracy?

No, just your delusions. No Neanderthal skeleton has ever yielded a set of ribs other tha Kebara. The CT analysis of Kebara disproves old notions about Neanderthal ribcages, which has been based on nothing. I lkterally just provided a link for you 1 hour ago so it's clear I am dealing with an indignant child in talking to you.

[Punish Them 911]

https://www.britannica.com/place/Amu...al-site-Israel

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2575753...n_tab_contents

[markod]

[QUOTE=Punish Them 911;563275]

They didn't, you are name dropping an author who's study you didn't pay attention to.

Cite your evidence.

Not in cranial shape. We are talking about cranial shape. Neanderthal cranial form is derived and not present in heidelberhensis. Source: every analysis of heidelberg/Neanderthal remains, ever.

Black/dark red = erectus, red stars = neandertalensis.



Some Neanderthal skulls were closer to some Erectus skulls than to each other.

They are better.

Then why were their genes subject to purifying selection in the relevant regions? You are contradicting yourself.

[markod]

No, just your delusions. No Neanderthal skeleton has ever yielded a set of ribs other tha Kebara. The CT analysis of Kebara disproves old notions about Neanderthal ribcages, which has been based on nothing. I lkterally just provided a link for you 1 hour ago so it's clear I am dealing with an indignant child in talking to you.

I've seen Feldhofer 1 in person in Germany. There are ribs.

[Punish Them 911]

[QUOTE=markod;563278]

Cite your evidence.

It's literally in the paper you cited.

Black/dark red = erectus, red stars = neandertalensis.

Some Neanderthal skulls were closer to some Erectus skulls than to each other.

No. You are ignorant. Read the supplemental data:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...e.0024024.t001

The Neanderthal skulls which deviate toward Erectus are pre-Neanderthals (Feldhofer 1) or Neanderthals which are known to deviate from the classical Neanderthal cranial shape (La Quina 5, all Shanidar remains, Spy 2).

You are too ignorant to be having these discussions.

Then why were their genes subject to purifying selection in the relevant regions? You are contradicting yourself.

They weren't.

[Punish Them 911]

I've seen Feldhofer 1 in person in Germany. There are ribs.

No there is a thorax and a handful of ribs which you can't make any observations from; Kebara is the only Neanderthal specimen with a complete set of ribs.

Furthermore, Feldhofer 1 is a pre-Neanderthal.

[markod]

It's literally in the paper you cited.

Do me a favor and copy the relevant bits.

No. You are ignorant. Read the supplemental data:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...e.0024024.t001

The Neanderthal skulls which deviate toward Erectus are pre-Neanderthals (Feldhofer 1) or Neanderthals which are known to deviate from the classical Neanderthal cranial shape (La Quina 5, all Shanidar remains, Spy 2).

You are too ignorant to be having these discussions.

Moving goalposts. Lol, the very name Neanderthal derives from Feldhofer.

They weren't.

Yes, especially in functional regions. This has been discussed to death.

[markod]

No there is a thorax and a handful of ribs which you can't make any observations from; Kebara is the only Neanderthal specimen with a complete set of ribs.

Furthermore, Feldhofer 1 is a pre-Neanderthal.

According to who?

[Angela]

This isn't the flat earth society, and it's not going to become a haven for such people, thereby bringing disrepute to the site.

[Gannicus]

The evidence for Neanderthal introgression in to modern humans suggests the opposite. Interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans was sex biased, with Neanderthal male+sapiens female pairings being the predominant coupling that produced modern non-Africans. Modern human mtDNA lineages are also present in Neanderthal fossils -- so far no modern human Y-DNA in Neanderthals or mtDNA in modern humans.
Denisovan+modern human couplings were also predominantly Denisovan male+modern human female.
Probably, modern human women found the Neanderthal men more attractive because they were more handsome, physically stronger and more intelligent and has more resources and better skills than modern humans (it is known for instance they mastered dry distillation of birch bark 80,000 years ago).
The Neanderthal+modern human hybrids were the most successful humans to ever walk the Earth; the majority of human beings alive today are Neanderthal+modern human hybrids. Non-Neanderthal hybrids (subsaharan Africans) have suffered immensely at the hands of Neanderthal-modern human hybrids for thousands of years. The decrease in Neanderthal ancestry over time is a natural consequence of the fact that they had much smaller populations than modern humans.

very intresting history, but could this mean that the birth of pale skinned europeans occured thanking to this and that esquimos are not white even do they have being living over the north pole for at least 20000 years because of a lack of nehanderthal admixture?

This would even put in doubt the idea of adaptation of melanine by climate and could even be a strong argument against evolutionism, very intresting.
+what do you personally think about Svante Pääbo's studies?
Thank you for your time.

[Angela]

Eskimos are relatively new migrants to their areas. In addition, they eat an almost completely fish diet, i.e. no plant based foods. The leading theory is that when people in northern climates stop consuming all that Vitamin D heavy fish and turn to Vitamin D lacking plant based foods skin lightens in order to absorb more Vitamin D from the sun.

In addition, the de-pigmentation snps present in humans DID NOT EXIST IN NEANDERTHALS. They were selected for in humans over the years.

Are any of you people ever going to actually read some papers before spouting off with the same old drivel?

[bicicleur]

LOL clearly Neanderthals were so advanced that they developed industrial civilization and Internet porn, stopped having kids, and started shipping in modern humans as cheap labour. But they were just too nice to colonize tropical countries. That must be it. Those superior sexy Neanderthals.

Dude your therapist must be writing some interesting monographs.

I think they made a spacecraft and moved to another planet, and now they are laughing at us primitivs.

[Gannicus]

Eskimos are relatively new migrants to their areas. In addition, they eat an almost completely fish diet, i.e. no plant based foods. The leading theory is that when people in northern climates stop consuming all that Vitamin D heavy fish and turn to Vitamin D lacking plant based foods skin lightens in order to absorb more Vitamin D from the sun.

In addition, the de-pigmentation snps present in humans DID NOT EXIST IN NEANDERTHALS. They were selected for in humans over the years.

Are any of you people ever going to actually read some papers before spouting off with the same old drivel?

well it makes sense, but how do you explain the several cranial and bone proportion differences among all the subraces, why there are out there nordic, noric, dinaric, goric, alpinid, atlantic, atlanto mediterranean, east baltid, baltid, etc. phenotypes and why there are arm proportion differences, why are there so many biological difference, for example the doses of drugs in hospital got to be set on the basis of race, other wise you could give to a subsaharian the dose of morphine for a white and kill him.
Than, even if it doesn't belong to this thread but evolutionism hasn't been prooved, not only but it has been put in a corner by several arguments, now i don't have all the quotes here, but the situation is this.

[Gannicus]

@Angela
i need your opinion for an idea of a thread argument that came to me in mind: lately i have seen lots of people claiming, with some evidence and facts, that civilization, agriculture and so sedentarism degenerates us mentally (i.q., cognitive abilities, sharpness, communication abilities) and physically, and that lots of diseases and plagues in the past have spread mostly to urban cities instead of countryside, and how people were less exposed to illnesses such as diabetes, leucemia, cancer, etc.
Plus as an argument they have the inexistence of homosexuality before civilizations, and other stuff.

This theory is mostly pushed by survivalists and by a guy called Varg Vikernes on his YT channel thulean perspective.
I know the thread could easly fall into anarchy and every retarded could come and spread lies and misinformation, but you know, it could be a funny social experiment

[Ygorcs]

very intresting history, but could this mean that the birth of pale skinned europeans occured thanking to this and that esquimos are not white even do they have being living over the north pole for at least 20000 years because of a lack of nehanderthal admixture?

This would even put in doubt the idea of adaptation of melanine by climate and could even be a strong argument against evolutionism, very intresting.
+what do you personally think about Svante Pääbo's studies?
Thank you for your time.

Not at all. Firstly because Eskimos also have Neanderthal ancestry, secondly because the pigmentation-related gene alleles found in Neanderthals ARE NOT the same ones that are most decisive to the light skin in either modern Europeans or modern East Asians. By the way, we already know, from various pre-Neolithic Europeans' autosomal DNA, that Western & Central Europeans were not light-skinned (and the first Europeans, who didn't contribute much to the present Europeans, like Oase1, were not light-skinned either - and let me just remind you that Oase 1 was the ancient DNA sample with highest and most recent Neanderthal ancestry). As far as I know Europe was still geographically Europe at that time. Convergent evolution just happens, people.

Besides, the much less relevant pigmentation-related genes of Neanderthals still present in modern humans are associated with both lighter AND ALSO darker features in hair and skin - so Neanderthal were probably not all "white Paleo-Europeans" as some people stilll seem to believe. Read the papers, the answers are all there.

Also, it is obviously ludicrous that someone describes non-Africans as a simple result of Neanderthal male + AMH female when their contribution to the modern gene pool is less than 2% in non-Africans, and even the early human specimen with most Neanderthal ancestry (Oase1) had only 5-11% Neanderthal ancestry - which obviously indicates that most of his ancestors were humans. There's also the very simple fact that ALL HUMAN Y-DNA haplogroups, without any exception found up to the present day, fit perfectly well in the phylogenetic tree of the ancestral African haplogroup BT and ultimately date back to the very same haplogroup A.

The mutations all clearly descend from a common African haplogroup not found elsewhere. It's so "bizarre" that Neanderthal males would've been so important, so much smarter, stronger and fitter, but their haplogroups would vanish into thin air and their autosomal contribution would be reduced to a tiny amount of the modern genome of non-Africans.

Besides, it's so intriguing that the only Neanderthal descendants that ever managed to avoid extinction were exactly those heavily (I mean heeeeeavily) mixed with Homo sapiens sapiens, while all the others supposedly so much "better" than the AMH died out. And there is even the case of Basal Eurasian ancestry widely present in all of West Eurasia (which obviously indicates that it sucessfully expanded and mixed with other Neanderthal-admixed populations) without needing to have none of that "superior Neanderthal ancestry".

All of these incongruences are bizarre because of course that scenario did not happen.

Maybe that guy didn't even consider the possibility that, given the very wide genetic differentiation between AMH and Neanderthals, only the children of a Neanderthal male + AMH female couple were fertile.

[Gannicus]

Not at all. Firstly because Eskimos also have Neanderthal ancestry, secondly because the pigmentation-related gene alleles found in Neanderthals ARE NOT the same ones that are most decisive to the light skin in either modern Europeans or modern East Asians. By the way, we already know, from various pre-Neolithic Europeans' autosomal DNA, that Western & Central Europeans were not light-skinned (and the first Europeans like Oase1 were not light-skinned either - and let me just remind you that Oase 1 was the ancient DNA sample with highest and most recent Neanderthal ancestry). As far as I know Europe was still geographically Europe at that time. Convergent evolution just happens, people.

Besides, the much less relevant pigmentation-related genes of Neanderthals still present in modern humans are associated with both lighter AND ALSO darker features in hair and skin - so Neanderthal were probably not all "white Paleo-Europeans" as some people stilll seem to believe. Read the papers, the answers are all there.

Also, it is obviously ludicrous that someone describes non-Africans as a simple result of Neanderthal male + AMH female when their contribution to the modern gene pool is less than 2% in non-Africans, and even the early human specimen with most Neanderthal ancestry (Oase1) had only 5-11% Neanderthal ancestry - which obviously indicates that most of his ancestors were humans. There's also the very simple fact that ALL HUMAN Y-DNA haplogroups, without any exception found up to the present day, fit perfectly well in the phylogenetic tree of the ancestral African haplogroup BT and ultimately date back to the very same haplogroup A.

The mutations all clearly descend from a common African haplogroup not found elsewhere. It's so "bizarre" that Neanderthal males would've been so important, so much smarter, stronger and fitter, but their haplogroups would vanish into thin air and their autosomal contribution would be reduced to a tiny amount of the modern genome of non-Africans. It's bizarre because of course that did not happen.

Maybe that guy didn't even consider the possibility that, given the very wide genetic differentiation between AMH and Neanderthals, only the children of a Neanderthal male + AMH female couple were fertile.

nice arguments there, but i would add that nehanderthal genes of wich we dispose today come from mixed nehanderthal-sapiens samples, Now, could the possession of purr nehanderthal DNA change the situation?? THX

[Ygorcs]

nice arguments there, but i would add that nehanderthal genes of wich we dispose today come from mixed nehanderthal-sapiens samples, Now, could the possession of purr nehanderthal DNA change the situation?? THX

That isn't correct. As early as 2010 scientists sequenced the complete genome of 3 fully Neanderthal samples:

The researchers compared DNA samples from the bones of three female Neanderthals who lived some 40,000 years ago in Europe to samples from five present-day humans from China, France, Papua New Guinea, southern Africa and western Africa. This provided the first genome-wide look at the similarities and differences of the closest evolutionary relative to humans, and maybe even identifying, for the first time, genetic variations that gave rise to modern humans.

SOURCE: https://www.genome.gov/27539119/2010...ome-sequenced/

[Gannicus]

That isn't correct. As early as 2010 scientists sequenced the complete genome of 3 fully Neanderthal samples:

The researchers compared DNA samples from the bones of three female Neanderthals who lived some 40,000 years ago in Europe to samples from five present-day humans from China, France, Papua New Guinea, southern Africa and western Africa. This provided the first genome-wide look at the similarities and differences of the closest evolutionary relative to humans, and maybe even identifying, for the first time, genetic variations that gave rise to modern humans.

SOURCE: https://www.genome.gov/27539119/2010...ome-sequenced/

Ah, ok, i was a little bit behind with infos about it, thx for the info.

[Gannicus]

Well but first of all Abiogenesis wich is the principle withou wich you could not have life, so no evolutionism, has been prooven mathematically impossible, it has such a low probability to have happened without a superior intelligence to make it almost impossible, than in order to create DNA you need amminoacids wich cannot be created randomly, then DNA is logically speaking a request of information something that cannot be created by non living forms, a request must have an intelligence behind it who can formulate the datas of the request so mathematically is impossible that you can have a request of info from a non intelligent entity, i can tell you thats as an informatician, so someone that has to do with logic and limited intelligence logics, such as a computer, that it is impossible, simple, than it is meaningless that a giraffe because she needed to reach some high trees extended her neck, so meanwhile the milion of yeara that she was waiting for the neck to get longer what was she eating?? and then how do you biologically give to a fish the request to make him have a pair of feet in order to walk on the earth, and meanwhile his evolution his uncomplete feet what were needed for??
Than the carnivore plants, it is said that they were herbivore before but due to lack of solar light in some regions converted to insect eating, in the exact middle of her evolution what was she eating thinking that the digestive sack was still incomplete, and at this point her ability to capture sunlight were compromised by the partial transformation of her leaf into a digestive sack??
Then explain me the carpal discontinuity ( hope i pronounced it correctly ) where a lot of unique fossils were found, and they didn't have any relation with other living form, then if there was evolutionism find me the fossils of species in the middle of their evolution, for example find me a meateating plant wich is in the middle of her stage and that both eats meat and absorbs sunlight.
Then i have even more argument but right now i think I wrote enough.

[Angela]

@Gannicus,
In addition to the information in Ygorcs nice post, we know that among the areas purged of Neanderthal dna are precisely those involved in higher order thinking and the speech centers of the brain. So, it is extremely likely that they were more primitive than we are.

Furthermore, one of the high purge areas involves the testes. In all likelihood, the male hybrids were sterile.

When some of the first discoveries were made, David Reich, intimately involved with Svante Paabo in the work, said that the two groups were on the verge of biological compatibility. It made sense to me then and it makes sense to me now, given all this evidence and the fact that we were separated for hundreds of thousands of years.

[Ygorcs]

well it makes sense, but how do you explain the several cranial and bone proportion differences among all the subraces, why there are out there nordic, noric, dinaric, goric, alpinid, atlantic, atlanto mediterranean, east baltid, baltid, etc. phenotypes and why there are arm proportion differences, why are there so many biological difference, for example the doses of drugs in hospital got to be set on the basis of race, other wise you could give to a subsaharian the dose of morphine for a white and kill him.
Than, even if it doesn't belong to this thread but evolutionism hasn't been prooved, not only but it has been put in a corner by several arguments, now i don't have all the quotes here, but the situation is this.

The differences between these so called sub-races (nordic, noric, dinaric, goric, alpinid, atlantic, etc.) are so incredibly minor and superficial that I think even minor selective processes and mere genetic drift can cause those outcomes after thousands of years. People seem to be unaware of how selection, bottlenecks and genetic drift can act surprisingly rapidly to cause such minor phenotypic differences (or do people really think that a larger or a wider nose is such a big deal, or a loss or increase of pigmentation is all that transformative?). Even the physical differences between two starkly distinct populations, like West Africans and Japanese people, are quite minor on a broad scale if you compare Sapiens sapiens morphology with that of even our closest cousins like Neanderthals.

[Gannicus]

@Gannicus,
In addition to the information in Ygorcs nice post, we know that among the areas purged of Neanderthal dna are precisely those involved in higher order thinking and the speech centers of the brain. So, it is extremely likely that they were more primitive than we are.
Furthermore, one of the high purge areas involves the testes. In all likelihood, the male hybrids were sterile.
When some of the first discoveries were made, David Reich, intimately involved with Svante Paabo in the work, said that the two groups were on the verge of biological compatibility. It made sense to me then and it makes sense to me now, given all this evidence and the fact that we were separated for hundreds of thousands of years.

Ok, thanks for your points, you never stop learning on eupedia ;)