Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Dushman]

This is the millionth time that you get duped by BS wiki entries that go nowhere. Always check the primary sources, otherwise you end up making a fool of yourself as you did with claiming that all scholars support an Albano-Germanic clade.

Show me the page where Strabo says the "sheep feeding plain". I'll wait.

Meanwhile, here you have linguist Smerdaleos giving a basic rundown on why Dele has nothing to do with Dalmatia.

https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2018/10/29/μυθοθρυψίες-η-δήθεν-αλβανική-ετυμολο/

Brain:

Option 1 - Taulanti (swallow), Enchelei (eel), Itali/viteliu (bull), Lucani (wolf), maybe Dorians (doris, red horse, dori in Albanian), therefore Delmatae (sheep).

Option 2 - smerdaleos.

Smerdaleos wins. Flawless Victory!

 

[Johane Derite]

Brain:

Option 1 - Taulanti (swallow), Enchelei (eel), Itali/viteliu (bull), Lucani (wolf), maybe Dorians (doris, red horse, dori in Albanian), therefore Delmatae (sheep).

Option 2 - smerdaleos.

Smerdaleos wins. Flawless Victory!

Wait, lmao, this is your example of "brain"?

You give 5 examples of animal names (not even accurate in the case of the Dorians!) and this is supposed to mean: Delmatae must be Dele.

That is your reasoning?

Albanian. Dori is loaned from Turkish. Doru (chestnut, reddish brown (of a horse)

Dorians name is most likely thought to come from a word meaning "woodland", for their home.

You're trying to use turkish words to etymologise Dorians?

Honestly, just quit. Stop with the cope and damage control freakouts.

 

[Dushman]

Wait, lmao, this is your example of "brain"?

You give 5 examples of animal names (not even accurate in the case of the Dorians!) and this is supposed to mean: Delmatae must be Dele.

That is your reasoning?

Albanian. Dori is loaned from Turkish. Doru (chestnut, reddish brown (of a horse)

Dorians name is most likely thought to come from a word meaning "woodland", for their home.

You're trying to use turkish words to etymologise Dorians?

Honestly, just quit. Stop with the cope and damage control freakouts.

I’m so happy that my fast comment helped you with your “personal issues”

Flawless victory for Johanne Deranged! Dori is loaned. Yeyyy!

 

[Excine]

Kind of odd though that Bruzmi is posting Matzinger's dating for Albanian in the origins of Albanians thread, meanwhile totally supressing his explicit statements about Albanian and Illyrian being two different languages.

To suppress what? You're the one who's taking Matzinger out of context. Matzinger says that Albanian doesn't have a linear origin from Illyrian and that they are two independent languages. He doesn't say that they're unrelated. The 2018 paper from Matzinger is supplementary to his book. They don't contradict each other. Matzinger in 2018 writes that Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and also to Messapic:


Although it is widely believed that Albanian goes back to Illyrian or even Thracian, this view cannot be seriously upheld from the linguistic point of view (see Matzinger 2009). None of the ancient personal or local names ascribed to Illyrian are continued in Albanian without interruption (e.g. the place-name Shkodra is merely a loan from Latin Scodra). Consequently, Albanian cannot be regarded as an offspring of Illyrian or even Thracian but must be considered to be a modern continuation of some other undocumented Indo-European Balkan idiom. However, Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and also Messapic (a language spoken in Southern Italy in antiquity but originally of Balkan origin), which is why Albanian in some instances may shed some light on the explanation of Messapic as well as Illyrian words (see Matzinger 2005): (Messapic-) Oenotrian [FONT=&quot]ῥ[/FONT]ιν[FONT=&quot]ό[/FONT]ς ‘clouds’ ~ Old Geg rẽ, Old Tosk rē ‘cloud’, the Messapic gloss βρ[FONT=&quot]έ[/FONT]νδο- ‘stag’ and the place-name Brundisium (Italian Bríndisi) ~ Old Geg brĩ, or the name of the Illyrian tribe of the Taulantioi ~ Albanian dallëndyshe ‘swallow’ (see Eichner 2004: 10 f.).




Albanian shares a considerable number of words in common with Rumanian (see Solta 1980: 3 f., 125 f. and Vătăşescu 1997). Some of them are remnants of an old inherited vocabulary (e.g. Albanian thark ‘pen for young livestock’ ~ Rumanian ţarc ‘id.’), while others comprise a younger category of Latin words attested in some cases only in Albanian and Rumanian (e.g. Albanian mëngon ‘get up very early’ ~ Rumanian mâneca ‘id.’ ← Latin *mānicāre ‘id.’). Both classes emerged from old and intensive contacts between the Proto-Albanians and the ancestors of the Rumanians. A widespread opinion regards the older category of the Albano-Rumanian common lexicon as the reflex of an ancient substratum of Thracian, Dacian, or unknown origin (a collection of these words is Brâncuş 1983). Aside from a few single words of perhaps non-Indo-European origin (Albanian modhullë ‘yellow vetchling [Lathyrus aphaca]’ ~ Rumanian mazăre ‘pea’), the largest part of this alleged substratum common to both Albanian and Rumanian consists simply of loan-words in Rumanian from Proto-Albanian, e.g. Rumanian ţarc ‘pen for young livestock’ from Proto-Albanian */tsárka-/ (Modern Albanian thark). The derivational base of this noun is continued in the Old Albanian verb thurën ‘interweave’ (< IE */k̑erH-/ ‘weave’, cf. Latin crātis ‘pen’; see details in Schumacher 2009: 43−45).




By the way, are you going to correct any information about Baedarus on your twitter account? It's really problematic for your account that you're propagating something which we can all see is false. Even the Greek blog "smerdaleos" which you copied calls it "Dalmato-Pannonian" but you're hiding it and misinforming your audience that Baedarus is a "Daco-Mysian" name.

 

[Yetos]

This is the millionth time that you get duped by BS wiki entries that go nowhere. Always check the primary sources, otherwise you end up making a fool of yourself as you did with claiming that all scholars support an Albano-Germanic clade.

Show me the page where Strabo says the "sheep feeding plain". I'll wait.

Meanwhile, here you have linguist Smerdaleos giving a basic rundown on why Dele has nothing to do with Dalmatia.

https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2018/10/29/μυθοθρυψίες-η-δήθεν-αλβανική-ετυμολο/

You are correct here,

in Hesychius of Alexandreia Lexicon the word for sea is Δαλαγχαν and cognates with Greek Θαλασσαν, (D->Θ)

Both Dalaghan and Thalassa are considered as non IE by many scholars,

Yet Homer uses the term ΑΛΣ which cognates with Αλας (salt) when naming the sea,
in accusative is ala, while salt is alati,

No matter the word homer uses is almost same with thalatta, Dalagha->thalassa->Thalatta
If the word was IE should be Salassa ->Salatta, comparing the Sanshqrit Salila,

SO you are correct,
since in Makedonian which is primitive Greek is Dalaghan and in Greek is Thalassa, and the toponym is Dalmatia (maybe Dala+mat)
But it is not of IE origin, THEN it should be from a previous non IE lingustic substractum.

At least this is what many scholars believe.
Yet a lot of non IE studies linguists connect simmilar sounds and connect it with Albanian word for sheep.

BTW
Hesychios Lexicon is a lexicon of Makedonian dialect/language remnants of his era.

PS
Greek use to cut the S infront
Like Salt ->alati
Sol -Selios ->(h)Elios
Selloi -> (h)Ellen Ελλην
But not the D or Θ

The Albanian word for sheep Delme cognates with Greek Θηλη (Thele) from *dʰeh₁- to suck
meaning teat, tit, nipple,
so if it was LPIE would mean Titty land, and not sea land. or sucking land etc
Yet a later giving name after Dalmatoi (Delme people) is possible.

the term -mat -mati appears a lot, even today in Balkans as area, land
Dalmatia most possible meaning is DALA+MAT (land by sea, shores, etc)

 

[Johane Derite]

To suppress what?

The crux of Matzinger's argument? That proto-Albanian wasn't in Albania in the pre-Roman period?

You're the one who's taking Matzinger out of context. Matzinger says that Albanian doesn't have a linear origin from Illyrian and that they are two independent languages. He doesn't say that they're unrelated. The 2018 paper from Matzinger is supplementary to his book. They don't contradict each other. Matzinger in 2018 writes that Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and also to Messapic:

I share directly from primary sources with screenshots of page number and article. I provide literally all context.

So lets talk about context then. Albanian is related to Indian and Iranian. Albanian is related to Tocharian. Albanian is related to all the Indo-European languages since they all come from proto-Indo-European. But compared to Indian, Albanian is obviously more closely related to Illyrian, Messapic, Greek, Phrygian, etc. So the closer we get to the proto-Albanian group, while still not actually being the proto-Albanian group, the more we will find similar isoglosses and words that resemble Albanian. That is the context here. He is explaining why we can find some words that resemble Albanian in Illyrian and Messapic, while these languages are still not Albanian. Whereas you guys are precisely trying to find single words like Dimal, and use that as proof that they were speaking proto-Albanian, which is totally wrong. That is the context of this quote, which by the way I have posted first online in forums and similar spaces years ago. Matzinger makes clear to say in the quote you included:

"Although it is widely believed that Albanian goes back to Illyrian or even Thracian, this view cannot be seriously upheld from the linguistic point of view. Albanian cannot be regarded as an offspring of Illyrian or even Thracian but must be considered to be a modern continuation of some other undocumented Indo-European Balkan idiom."

Further, you say this quote from 2018 is "complementary", then why are you supressing and wilfully ignoring the results and arguments of his latest study posted in 2022, where he definitely adds up on and brings "complementary" information about Illyrian and Messapic? Namely, that Illyrian conforms to an East Alpine Block, while Messapic does not. Why so silent on this?

A widespread opinion regards the older category of the Albano-Rumanian common lexicon as the reflex of an ancient substratum of Thracian, Dacian, or unknown origin (a collection of these words is Brâncuş 1983). Aside from a few single words of perhaps non-Indo-European origin (Albanian modhullë ‘yellow vetchling [Lathyrus aphaca]’ ~ Rumanian mazăre ‘pea’), the largest part of this alleged substratum common to both Albanian and Rumanian consists simply of loan-words in Rumanian from Proto-Albanian, e.g. Rumanian ţarc ‘pen for young livestock’ from Proto-Albanian */tsárka-/ (Modern Albanian thark). The derivational base of this noun is continued in the Old Albanian verb thurën ‘interweave’ (< IE */k̑erH-/ ‘weave’, cf. Latin crātis ‘pen’; see details in Schumacher 2009: 43−45).

Yes, this is totally right, Romanian has loans from proto-Albanian, this is one of the biggest reasons why proto-Albanian had to be further inland away from Albania during this time.

By the way, are you going to correct any information about Baedarus on your twitter account? It's really problematic for your account that you're propagating something which we can all see is false. Even the Greek blog "smerdaleos" which you copied calls it "Dalmato-Pannonian" but you're hiding it and misinforming your audience that Baedarus is a "Daco-Mysian" name.

I'm not going to correct anything because I've done nothing wrong. I share Duridanov's opinion that this is a Daco-Mysian name. I shared Smerdaleos post on that post, anybody that wishes to go the route he goes is free to.

I'm totally unconvinced by the attempt to link it with Albanian. be, and it clearly is just a cognate of Greek. Φαῖδρος (phaidrós), Latin. Phaedrus. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Φαῖδρος

So even if it was Delmato-Pannonian, it is totally irrelevant to the post, since the point was the Albanian accent on top of the placename, not the etymology, which isn't proto-Albanian either way.

Neither Nish or Shtip have Albanian etymology, but they have an Albanian accent transformation that allows us to place proto-Albanian speakers there before Slavs, that is the point.

If you think there were Delmato-Pannonians living near Shtip in Bederiana than you can go ahead and do that, but this is a ridiculous belief.

You losers contribute nothing to anything. You create nothing. All you can do is whine about the work of others and try pull other people down, you are totally unable to build anything of your own.

The best hope is an autolarje / lavazh for your kind. Not too cognitively demanding.

 

[Johane Derite]

To suppress what? You're the one who's taking Matzinger out of context.

Matzinger:

"Conclusion from the perspective of historical linguistics: The assumption that Albanian is neither of Illyrian nor Thracian origin, but rather the reflex of a separate, independent Old Balkan language, is not a makeshift conclusion.

It arises from the phonetic details of the linguistic history and development in the early days of Albanian, which do not match the phonetic conditions of Illyrian and Thracian. Such a match would be the necessary prerequisite to justifiy a linguistic relationship or descendance.

The otherwise chronologically late sound development of the place names existing on Albanian territory is, on the one hand, a further counter-argument against the supposed linear Illyrian-Albanian autochtony and, on the other hand, a clear indication of a very chronologically young immigration of Albanophones into their current homes.

The sound development of the toponyms shows a different chronology from north to south, while the toponymy of the north is based on older substitutions that can still be dated to the turn of the times (Shkoder), the toponyms further south are already linked to substitutions whose source forms already pressupose Romance sound laws (Durres)."

"We do not know when exactly this immigration must have taken place, the time frame can roughly be outlined as late antiquity;
the historical phonology of Proto-Albanian in relation to the adaptation of place names suggests a period from approximately 300 - 900 AD"


This is what the academic world currently believes. So if you think Albanian being on a branch with "Illyric" somehow softens this blow, fine, that doesn't change the fact that they still believe Albanian to be a latecomer into Albania. This is the current reality of arguments we have to deal with.

 

[Johane Derite]

Matzinger:

"Conclusion from the perspective of historical linguistics: The assumption that Albanian is neither of Illyrian nor Thracian origin, but rather the reflex of a separate, independent Old Balkan language, is not a makeshift conclusion.

It arises from the phonetic details of the linguistic history and development in the early days of Albanian, which do not match the phonetic conditions of Illyrian and Thracian. Such a match would be the necessary prerequisite to justifiy a linguistic relationship or descendance.

The otherwise chronologically late sound development of the place names existing on Albanian territory is, on the one hand, a further counter-argument against the supposed linear Illyrian-Albanian autochtony and, on the other hand, a clear indication of a very chronologically young immigration of Albanophones into their current homes.

The sound development of the toponyms shows a different chronology from north to south, while the toponymy of the north is based on older substitutions that can still be dated to the turn of the times (Shkoder), the toponyms further south are already linked to substitutions whose source forms already pressupose Romance sound laws (Durres)."

"We do not know when exactly this immigration must have taken place, the time frame can roughly be outlined as late antiquity;
the historical phonology of Proto-Albanian in relation to the adaptation of place names suggests a period from approximately 300 - 900 AD"


This is what the academic world currently believes. So if you think Albanian being on a branch with "Illyric" somehow softens this blow, fine, that doesn't change the fact that they still believe Albanian to be a latecomer into Albania. This is the current reality of arguments we have to deal with.

""If one takes all these considerations into account and takes into account the references to Romanian ethnogenesis, one can only look for an area that is located in the area of the late antique provinces of Moesia superior, Dacia ripensis, Dacia mediterranea, and Dardania.

If an original settlement area of the Proto-Albanians is to be localized in this area, then possible traces in the toponymy must be looked for"

 

[Dushman]

Makes so much sense that Albanian resisted full Romanization in the lowlands of Dardania/Moesia.

 

[Johane Derite]

Makes so much sense that Albanian resisted full Romanization in the lowlands of Dardania/Moesia.

Those living in plains would have mostly been romanised. There are plenty of mountainous regions in this area though.

 

[Excine]

It's not me who just thinks Albanian is apart of the Illyric branch, the same view is going to be shown by Hyllested and Joseph once the paper comes out.

 

[Johane Derite]

It's not me who just thinks Albanian is apart of the Illyric branch, the same view is going to be shown by Hyllested and Joseph once the paper comes out.

I look forward to that paper and will share it when it comes out.

 

[Excine]

I look forward to that paper and will share it when it comes out.

Indeed, the paper itself discusses the relationship of other IE languages and Albanian, it's not of course the end all be all of the origin of the Albanian language, but gives an interesting insight nonetheless.

 

[mount123]

There might have been one in the beginning, like we find R-Z2103 beside J-L283 in Maros and we have R-Z2103 in the East Adriatic (Pre-/Cetina period). So its possible, I'm just saying possible, that there was an early connection - I wouldn't even exclude that for E-V13 too.

For J-L283 we really have troubles to connect it early on, but what we know is that latest by the MBA, the Proto-Illyrian autosomal profile was already developed and expanded. Its therefore good for this video to let it start around 1.600 BC, which is when at the one hand Tumulus culture pushed them somewhat West and they were already moving with the whole package. Because what was before is, as of now, completely open.
We need Cetina samples for comparison, Apennine Italians, Castellieri - and it will be interesting to see in which exact group J-L283 was earlier, around the Carpathians, when coming in from the steppe presumably.

I guess you're referring to I3499 R-Z2103>R-M12149, mtDNA: T2e which is from east Slavonia, Zemlja Popova near the Serbian border, not the Adriatic region. I guess you mixed up its location since Bruzmi put it in a list next to Bronze Age East/West Adriatic J2b-L283 samples.

 

[enter_tain]

Denying Illyrian-Albanian continuity has straight up become a mental illness for some. It's actually sad. Every major paper has been pointing towards it.

Paper 1 shows J2B2-L283 in Northern Illyrians.

Paper 2 shows L283/Z638 in Southern Illyrians.

Paper 3 shows Southern Illyrian autosomal profile + EV-13.

Paper 4 shows Iron Age Illyrians and modern Albanians in PCA being a stone's throw away and we can account for the small difference using Roman Imperial/East Med + Slavic/Gothic. Meanwhile Bulgarian IA is WAY off.

Imagine being this thick/stupid that you still keep banging your head against the wall against straight up facts.

 

[enter_tain]

Brain:

Option 1 - Taulanti (swallow), Enchelei (eel), Itali/viteliu (bull), Lucani (wolf), maybe Dorians (doris, red horse, dori in Albanian), therefore Delmatae (sheep).

Option 2 - smerdaleos.

Smerdaleos wins. Flawless Victory!

Who is merdaleos? Where does this dude find these people?

Thanks for pointing it out. People studying the Illyrian language are like people studying Atlantis and their language.

Like I said before, good luck finding the etymology of Xerxes and reconstructing the language that uses such a name. Or Artaxerxes the golden Xerxes for that matter xD

Protothyes, the name of a 7th century BC Scythian king. The reconstructed name seems to have been Bartatua. Who would bother reconstructing Protothyes if he were a Paeonian king? Everyone would be: oh this is easy, it means Paeonians spoke a language close to Phrygo-Hellenic.

Seriously, I must be missing something. Matzinger can't possibly be this ******* stupid.

-ium is literally a Latin ending, and this guy thinks it's Illyrian??? Those same places are called -ion by Greeks?

Delminium/Delminion.

If this is true, this dude's degree must be rescinded. I'm not even kidding. This is straight up academic fraud.

 

[Dushman]

Denying Illyrian-Albanian continuity has straight up become a mental illness for some. It's actually sad. Every major paper has been pointing towards it.

Paper 1 shows J2B2-L283 in Northern Illyrians. Also, J2B2-L283 movement in Messapia in Italian study, as supported by archeology.

Paper 2 shows L283/Z638 in Southern Illyrians.

Paper 3 shows Southern Illyrian autosomal profile + EV-13.

Paper 4 shows Iron Age Illyrians literally shows modern Albanians in PCA being a stone's throw away and we can account for the small difference using Roman Imperial/East Med + Slavic/Gothic. Meanwhile Bulgarian IA is WAY off.

Imagine being this thick/stupid that you still keep banging your head against the wall against straight up facts.

They’re not thick or stupid, they have an agenda. Hawk already admitted of being autosomally the Easternmost Albanian with Asian eyes (his own words in Eupedia).

They want to get the exclusivity of the Albanian language and drag all Albanians towards a North-Eastern homeland of E-V13 to justify their autosomal profiles.

So they need their 3 pillars of identity (yDNA, auDNA, and language) to overlap in 1 single region to feel good about themselves.

Notice how Derite is so good at picking up Turkish words. It’s the second time he does it with me with the last one being ‘dori’ (red-brown horse). I’ve read this word in an Arvanite dictionary and it was in Greek too as doris, but never knew about its etymology.

It’s not unreasonable to think he’s one of those Prizren Turks.

 

[Yetos]

They’re not thick or stupid, they have an agenda. Hawk already admitted of being autosomally the Easternmost Albanian with Asian eyes (his own words in Eupedia).

They want to get the exclusivity of the Albanian language and drag all Albanians towards a North-Eastern homeland of E-V13 to justify their autosomal profiles.

So they need their 3 pillars of identity (yDNA, auDNA, and language) to overlap in 1 single region to feel good about themselves.

Notice how Derite is so good at picking up Turkish words. It’s the second time he does it with me with the last one being ‘dori’ (red-brown horse). I’ve read this word in an Arvanite dictionary and it was in Greek too as doris, but never knew about its etymology.

It’s not unreasonable to think he’s one of those Prizren Turks.

hm
Genetics can not change, the continueity of genes is obvious in today Albania, as also the admixtures etc etc
But the linguistic does not fit, I have said that many times,
Just think that Albanian as term of language appears after Slavic invasions,
The above does mean that did not pre-exist Slavic migrations, and maybe is much older,
but does not fit with Today Albania, but more NE,
The geneticks is other subject and in all my posts I mention that, that todays Albania population has continuity.

 

[Dushman]

hm
Genetics can not change, the continueity of genes is obvious in today Albania, as also the admixtures etc etc
But the linguistic does not fit, I have said that many times,
Just think that Albanian as term of language appears after Slavic invasions,
The above does mean that did not pre-exist Slavic migrations, and maybe is much older,
but does not fit with Today Albania, but more NE,
The geneticks is other subject and in all my posts I mention that, that todays Albania population has continuity.

You have almost 6000 posts and nobody reads them. How does it feel?

 

[torzio]

Who is merdaleos? Where does this dude find these people?



Seriously, I must be missing something. Matzinger can't possibly be this ******* stupid.

-ium is literally a Latin ending, and this guy thinks it's Illyrian??? Those same places are called -ion by Greeks?

Delminium/Delminion.

If this is true, this dude's degree must be rescinded. I'm not even kidding. This is straight up academic fraud.

I come to eupedia to read you articles..........they make me laugh

Its getting more entaining the more you realise you are loosing this Albanian linguistic arguement