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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

  1. #226
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    Fascinating linguistic analysis project of Albania that will be finished in 2025

    The study began in January 2021 and is being headed by Dr. Joachim Matzinger and Dr. Katsiaryna Ackermann

    Google translated:

    On January 1, 2021, the third-party funded project “Linguistic History of Place Names in Albania”, financed by the FWF for four years, began. The aim of this project is the diachronic-linguistic analysis of the place names (city and village names, i.e. macrotoponyms) recorded on the territory of Albania from antiquity to modern times. The special historical backgrounds of the settlement and migration history of the Albanian area are taken into account and evaluated. This concerns among other things the controversially discussed question of autochthony or immigration of the Albanians into their historically documented settlement area, which is inextricably linked with the question of the origin of the Albanians and their language, the geographically high number of undoubtedly Slavic settlement names in the whole area of ​​Albania or but also the creation of its own Albanian toponomastics.


    Since the Albanian language itself is only literarily documented from the middle of the 16th century AD and especially for the period between the end of antiquity and the 11th century AD (- the first mention of the Albanians as an independent ethnic group in Byzantine sources -) for the In the Albanian region only sparse historical sources are available, the place names in particular provide meaningful information to illuminate the historical events of these periods. An analysis carried out using modern historical-linguistic methods will finally show which phonological changes the place names of Albania have been subjected to since their first attestation and how these phonological changes can be classified chronologically and linguistically. This first overall survey of the place names of Albania will also show which languages ​​these place names can be assigned to (pre-Albanian, Albanian, Slavic, Vlachian, Turkish place names) and how their geographical distribution is represented. At the end of this project, a practical handbook of the place names of Albania is to be published, in which the project results are presented, accompanied by a web presence with a virtual map. This project is intended to serve as a model and role model for the still outstanding diachronic-linguistic research on the place names of the other countries in Southeast Europe.

    LINK: https://www.oeaw.ac.at/ihb/forschung...rachgeschichte
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I never insulted anybody. You started attacking me unprovoked, claiming conspiracy theories that I don't speak Albanian, attacking kosova albanians in general, because you lack any integrity, and because you have no clue what you are doing.
    After you did these attacks because of your low and base nature, you showed that you are nothing. It's funny that you seem to lack even the self awareness to realise that you were the one who was throwing insults.
    You can take your stupid questions and arguments to someone who cares, I wont respond to a stupid chimp any longer.
    You clearly are not a native speaker. You have 0 original ideas and you merely adopt theories that fit your agenda. I gave you plenty of facts coming from me, not parroting blindly the theories of others. If I were to believe everything scientists said Id be the most confused person on earth.

    Im reserved towards bold claims such as those from Matzinger. Ive seen some of the most ridiculous etymologies ever supported by the likes of even Orel.

    I asked you several questions by you evaded all of them. And its not your fault cause if Matzinger didnt touch that topic then no way youd have an opinion of your own.

    Furthermore, what are the etymologies of Albanian kmba, peshk, mik, and shpejt? What do you personally believe?

    Kosovo Albanians are Albanians, pro-Albania, and patriots, you just happen to be simply an inhabitant of Kosovo, thats it.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Fascinating linguistic analysis project of Albania that will be finished in 2025

    The study began in January 2021 and is being headed by Dr. Joachim Matzinger and Dr. Katsiaryna Ackermann

    Google translated:

    On January 1, 2021, the third-party funded project “Linguistic History of Place Names in Albania”, financed by the FWF for four years, began. The aim of this project is the diachronic-linguistic analysis of the place names (city and village names, i.e. macrotoponyms) recorded on the territory of Albania from antiquity to modern times. The special historical backgrounds of the settlement and migration history of the Albanian area are taken into account and evaluated. This concerns among other things the controversially discussed question of autochthony or immigration of the Albanians into their historically documented settlement area, which is inextricably linked with the question of the origin of the Albanians and their language, the geographically high number of undoubtedly Slavic settlement names in the whole area of ​​Albania or but also the creation of its own Albanian toponomastics.


    Since the Albanian language itself is only literarily documented from the middle of the 16th century AD and especially for the period between the end of antiquity and the 11th century AD (- the first mention of the Albanians as an independent ethnic group in Byzantine sources -) for the In the Albanian region only sparse historical sources are available, the place names in particular provide meaningful information to illuminate the historical events of these periods. An analysis carried out using modern historical-linguistic methods will finally show which phonological changes the place names of Albania have been subjected to since their first attestation and how these phonological changes can be classified chronologically and linguistically. This first overall survey of the place names of Albania will also show which languages ​​these place names can be assigned to (pre-Albanian, Albanian, Slavic, Vlachian, Turkish place names) and how their geographical distribution is represented. At the end of this project, a practical handbook of the place names of Albania is to be published, in which the project results are presented, accompanied by a web presence with a virtual map. This project is intended to serve as a model and role model for the still outstanding diachronic-linguistic research on the place names of the other countries in Southeast Europe.

    LINK: https://www.oeaw.ac.at/ihb/forschung...rachgeschichte
    Most interestingly here is the comment "This first overall survey of the place names of Albania will also show which languages ​​these place names can be assigned to (pre-Albanian, Albanian, Slavic, Vlachian, Turkish place names) "

    It seems that academia has accepted more or less that toponyms like Scodra, and the countless other Illyrian toponyms without Albanian etymologies belong to a non-Albanian language, and are moving ahead.

    It would be wise to start looking for proto-Albanian toponyms within the yellow zone marked out by Matzinger, and not focus on non-Albanian languages like the one that named Skodra.

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    Folks, could we please take it easy and refrain from belittling one another in this thread? It's quite immature and foolish. I'm not sure what's provoking the animosity, but let's keep this on track with a serious topic.

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    I personally am not going to blindly accept theories from researchers whove been wrong in the past and cannot even figure out the etymology of lule and lumi.

    Similarly, Im cannot simply accept that Skodra is not Albanian because Albanian doesnt have sk- when we all know it has transformed it to shk- like peshk (fish) and pjeshke (peach). In addition, theres no reason for me not to believe that Shkodra comes from kodra meaning hill + sh- to mean settlement/town like berg in Germanic, just like Albanian has noth karpe and shkarpe.

    Also, nobody can prove that it wasnt called Shkodra in antiquity since Romans and Greeks didnt have the sh sound.

    Latin also lost the Proto-IE (s)k- and modern Italian does have the sh sound yet nobody is writing a book that Latin was not spoken in Rome until 500 BC for example.

    Anyway, to each their own. What do you guys think about the etymology of Achilles from Akhiddeus which in itself could have derived from Akhpedios, cognate to how the Epirotes how called Achilles, Aspetos. This hypothesis stands on the ground because of Homers epithet podarkes (swift/light footed), thus leading me to believe that theyre related to the Albanian word shpejt (fast).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    I personally am not going to blindly accept theories from researchers who�ve been wrong in the past and cannot even figure out the etymology of lule and lumi.

    Similarly, I�m cannot simply accept that Skodra is not Albanian because Albanian doesn�t have sk- when we all know it has transformed it to shk- like peshk (fish) and pjeshke (peach). In addition, there�s no reason for me not to believe that Shkodra comes from kodra meaning hill + sh- to mean settlement/town like berg in Germanic, just like Albanian has noth karpe and shkarpe.

    Also, nobody can prove that it wasn�t called Shkodra in antiquity since Romans and Greeks didn�t have the �sh� sound.

    Latin also lost the Proto-IE (s)k- and modern Italian does have the �sh� sound yet nobody is writing a book that Latin was not spoken in Rome until 500 BC for example.

    Anyway, to each their own. What do you guys think about the etymology of Achilles from Akhiddeus which in itself could have derived from Akhpedios, cognate to how the Epirotes how called Achilles, Aspetos. This hypothesis stands on the ground because of Homer�s epithet �podarkes� (swift/light footed), thus leading me to believe that they�re related to the Albanian word �shpejt� (fast).

    why do you bring Italian into a latin word ?....................their alphabets are different ..................romans called it Scodra after the capital of an Illyrian tribe the Labeates from Montenegro

    SCODRA (ἡ Σκόδρα, Ptol. 2.16. (17.) § 12; Σκόδραι, Hierocl. p. 656: Eth. Scodrenses, Liv. 45.26), one of the snore important towns of Roman Illyricum (Montenegro), the capital of the Labeates, seated at the southern extremity of the lake Labeatis, between two rivers, the Clausula on the E., and the Barbanna on the W. (Liv. 44.31), and at a distance of 17 miles from the sea-coast (Plin. Nat. 3.22. s. 26). It was a very strong place, and Gentius, king of the Illyrians, attempted to defend it against the Romans, B.C. 168, but was defeated in a battle under the walls. Pliny erroneously places it on the Drilo (l.c.). At a later period it became the chief city of the province Praevalitana. It is the present Scutari, which is also the name of the lake Labeatis. (Wilkinson, Dalmatia and Montenegro, vol. i. p. 476.)

    You need to stop mixing ancient from medieval or modern ..............the times are too distant

    Even the english language was different to what it was 500 years ago
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Matzinger also considers Albanian independent branch from Illyrian:

    Google translated:

    “Since there are two fundamentally different phoneme systems between Illyrian and Proto-Albanian, there are also two different languages.


    On the basis of these facts, it is possible, even inevitable, to reject the hypothesis that the Albanian language has a linear origin from ancient Illyrian.


    Rather, Albanian can be seen as a continuant of an independent Old Balkan idiom that is independent of Illyrian and that ultimately escaped Romanization and Slavicization and has thus retained its linguistic independence to this day.”




    Pg 84
    “Der Lateinisch-Albanisch Sprachkontakt und seine Implikationen fur die Vorgeschichte des Albanischen und der Albaner”
    Joachim Matzinger

    Since linguists across the board now agree that proto-Albanian had lost its /sk/ clusters long before contact with romans, likewise that it did not have the /o/ vowel long before contact with latins (it had became an /a/), what should we look for in its place?

    It depends on the chronology:


    PIE. *sk

    Early-Proto-Alb 1.*hk

    Early-Proto-Alb 2. *kh

    Early-Proto-Alb 3. *kʰ

    Proto-Alb. *x

    Albanian. h

    Example:

    Proto-Indo-European. *ǵn̥h₃sḱéti

    Early-Proto-Albanian. *ȷ́nākʰet

    Intermediate stage. *ɲɔxit

    Proto-Albanian. *ɲœx

    Old Alb. njeh

    Alb. njeh


  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    In "The Albanian autochthony hypothesis from the perspective of linguistics", Matzinger argues:


    -Proto-Albanians migrated to Albania ~300-900 AD
    -North Albania has older Albanian presence than South
    -Albanian ethnogenesis is result of Christian Albanian pastoral communities coming into confrontation with non-Christian Slavs
    -The area they migrated from are the late antiquity provinces of Dardania, Moesia, Dacia Mediterranea, Dacia Ripensis


    Albanian Y-DNA does suggest a late antiquity bottleneck within this 300-900AD period, interestingly enough.



    Matzinger calls for systematic research of placenames (including microtoponyms) within this region to see if there are more examples that fit proto-Albanian.


    A possible example is "Maleševo" mountain in East Macedonia, which fits proto-Albanian. "Mal" with Slavic suffix, which can speak to slavs encountering proto-Albanian speakers in this region.


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    It's probably native to the region, contrary to what some Serbs think. An interesting language isolate within Indo-European though, may be connected to some ancient Illyrian/Thracian ones. There is also an interesting and unique link with Romanian/Eastern Romance that no other languages share, several hundred unique words and other grammatical features. Some of these come from the Balkan sprachbund. Also, Justinian and those emperors were native Latin speakers so maybe would have been part of a community that eventually became the local Vlachs. There are a lot of unanswered questions though.

    I've heard some people putting the Albanian homeland further north, but also the proto-Romanian homeland further south. These start to delve into tense and touchy political issues however, so most of the scholarship on it tends to be from foreign researchers from what I've noticed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Matzinger calls for systematic research of placenames (including microtoponyms) within this region to see if there are more examples that fit proto-Albanian.


    A possible example is "Maleševo" mountain in East Macedonia, which fits proto-Albanian. "Mal" with Slavic suffix, which can speak to slavs encountering proto-Albanian speakers in this region.

    As i said over 3 years ago.....the Thracians pushed the Dardanians out of the yellow zoned area on the map ..............the illyrians ( Pannonians ) came at the end trying to take a part of Moesia

    Moesia became the 4th Thracian province after Dacia, Getae and Odyssia


    Proto-Albanian comes via gheg ( dardanian lands ) and not tosk ( epirote lands ).................pity the Kosovo before getting their country had to begin to give up Gheg and use tosk as from 1968 and enforced in Albanian parliament in 1975

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    Sklep (rheum, eye yellow), a variant of glep (barely used), ag- prefixed formation from Proto-Indo-European*leyp-(to smear, stick). Cognate to Ancient Greekλίπος(lpos, fat), Latinlippus(blear eyed), Lithuanianlimp(to stick, glue), Hittiteto smear(/lip/), Old High Germanbiliban(to stay, remain).

    Another example why its unintelligent believing in linguists braindead theories that 100% of sk- in Albanian (or any other language) is a loanword.

    Shkelm (footstep, kick), f
    rom Proto-Albanian*̥kalim-, from Proto-Indo-European*kel-(to bend). Albanian formation with -m().

    Another example when Albanian adds sh- before the supposed Proto-IE k, thus I see no reason of excluding Shkodra again.

    Similarly, shkal (to tread, to spur on the heels), f
    rom Proto-Albanian*kall-, from Proto-Indo-European*(s)kel-(bend). Cognate to Latincalco(to spur) and Lithuanianatsikalti(to lean against (upon)).

    And shkel [to step on, to tread upon, or figuratively to break (the law)], leading to:

    Shkall (stairs, ladder), b
    orrowed through Vulgar Latin from Latinscāla, itself deriving from scando- (ascend, climb, mount).

    How super convenient for an underpaid linguist to quickly finish the Albanian etymologies and come up with a 60% Latin loanwords without breaking a sweat due to the languages similarities. If Albanian were the language of a strong kingdom/empire Im pretty sure theyd favour it and say that its most likely that Latin scala derived from the Proto-Albanian roots rather than scando-.

    Few intriguing coincidences, the Albanian word for horse is kali, supposedly from Latin caballus (as always) whose etymology I believed until I stumbled upon Ancient Greek kelis (racehorse). Coincidentally again, Ancient Greek hippos (horse) and hippeis (cavalry, horseman) sounds like a cognate to Albanian hipi (mount, climb).

    Is it really logical and necessary for linguists to claim that Albanian borrowed 90% of its vocabulary just because it suffered invasions in the past 2000 years? Or is it just lazy unacademic work?

    Furthermore, Albanian kmba/kmba (leg, foot),
    from Proto-Indo-European*kam-p(to bend). Orel (2000) discusses it as the reflex of a Romance camba but notes that the form is attested nowhere in Balkan Romance, while Huld argues the "direction of borrowing is uncertain". Camarda wondered if it was related to Ancient Greekκαμπή(kampḗ, bend), while Rohlfs attributed it to a loan from that source. Why its so necessary to be a loan? Its gotta be either Latin or Greek otherwise nothing makes sense in the linguists world anymore.

    Shkmb/shkmb (cliff, rock),
    Borrowed through Vulgar Latin from Latinscamnum (stool, bench, ridge, LOL). Compare Greekσκαμνί(skamn), Romanianscaun, Italianscanno. Another big LOL and braindead lazy work etymology.

    All the aforementioned examples have a possibility common root ka- related to steps, mounting, climbing, and foot, but for the linguists sanity they got to be all loans. They also love making confident and absolute claims on unknown unwritten unrecorded dead languages using their mathematical formulas like the statements of Albanian had lost o entirely and ALL the shk-/sk- in Albanian is foreign when Latin and Greek (which had influences on Albanian) had mostly lost the Proto-IE (s)k- too.

    I mean, how do we even know that this supposed Proto-IE had (s) to begin with. Its just a reconstructed language based on few written languages and the truth could have been something different entirely with some (or many) languages adding the (s) rather than removing it to form new meanings.



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    As far as the Albanian language is concerned, my theory is that it was originally a local language in the Thracian/Dacian sphere in the mountains of Western Romania. During the great migration the proto-Abanian speaking tribes were pushed southwest by the Slavs and the Avars to what is now Albania and Kossovo where they mixed with local tribes with the local tribes adopting the Albanian language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    As far as the Albanian language is concerned, my theory is that it was originally a local language in the Thracian/Dacian sphere in the mountains of Western Romania. During the great migration the proto-Abanian speaking tribes were pushed southwest by the Slavs and the Avars to what is now Albania and Kossovo where they mixed with local tribes with the local tribes adopting the Albanian language.
    Why Western Romania when the most Proto-Albanian sounding words/names are to be found in what was ancient Dardania/Paeonia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    As far as the Albanian language is concerned, my theory is that it was originally a local language in the Thracian/Dacian sphere in the mountains of Western Romania. During the great migration the proto-Abanian speaking tribes were pushed southwest by the Slavs and the Avars to what is now Albania and Kossovo where they mixed with local tribes with the local tribes adopting the Albanian language.
    As far as Im concerned, youre a nobody who doesnt even speak Albanian and you have only wishful thinking regarding Proto-Albanian because you want yo claim Epirus and the entire modern Northern Greece which is genetically non-Greek.

    Instead of contributing to the Albanian language with your 0 knowledge on the matter, try to defend the Hellenism of the Vlacho-Albano-Slavic population of Northern Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Why Western Romania when the most Proto-Albanian sounding words/names are to be found in what was ancient Dardania/Paeonia.
    The blue area corresponds with the highest Albanian names as well as the lowest Slavic ones. Former Dardanian and Paeonian areas are heavily Slavic.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Why Western Romania when the most Proto-Albanian sounding words/names are to be found in what was ancient Dardania/Paeonia.
    Because you have a lot more eastern Romance loan words (i.e. Proto-Romanian) than you have from ancient or even medieval Greek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    As far as I�m concerned, you�re a nobody who doesn�t even speak Albanian and you have only wishful thinking regarding Proto-Albanian because you want yo claim Epirus and the entire modern Northern Greece which is genetically non-Greek.

    Instead of �contributing� to the Albanian language with your 0 knowledge on the matter, try to defend the Hellenism of the Vlacho-Albano-Slavic population of Northern Greece.
    No I don't speak Alabanian but I was pretty fluent in Arvanitika having grown up in an 90% Arvanite town in Western Thrace. I don't speak it anymore.

    We, meaning the Greeks, don't care about "pure Greeks". We have absorbed a lot of refugees from Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace and Northern Thrace (Eastern Rumelia). Heck we are absorbing a lot of Albanians as we speak that want to become citizens of Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Because you have a lot more eastern Romance loan words (i.e. Proto-Romanian) than you have from ancient or even medieval Greek.
    Another autistic collection of theories.

    Albanian has Latin influence not Eastern Romance. Its Albanian that influenced Romanian not the other way around.

    Albanian doesnt have enough GrEeK lOaN wOrDs. So? Is that supposed to mean anything smart?

    Again, Albanian has Latin influence, the official language of the empire that Albanians belonged to for hundreds of years.

    Greeks are not locals because Greek dOeSnT hAvE eNoUgH LaTiN lOaNwOrDs o.O

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    No I don't speak Alabanian but I was pretty fluent in Arvanitika having grown up in an 90% Arvanite town in Western Thrace. I don't speak it anymore.

    We, meaning the Greeks, don't care about "pure Greeks". We have absorbed a lot of refugees from Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace and Northern Thrace (Eastern Rumelia). Heck we are absorbing a lot of Albanians as we speak that want to become citizens of Greece.
    I was super fluent in German, Danish, Portuguese, Catalan, and Finnish but I forgot everything. But you still gotta trust me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Another autistic collection of theories.

    Albanian has Latin influence not �Eastern Romance�. It�s Albanian that influenced Romanian not the other way around.

    Albanian doesn�t have enough GrEeK lOaN wOrDs. So? Is that supposed to mean anything smart?

    Again, Albanian has Latin influence, the official language of the empire that Albanians belonged to for hundreds of years.

    Greeks are not locals because Greek dOeSnT hAvE eNoUgH LaTiN lOaNwOrDs o.O
    Actually Greek was the official language of the Byzantine Empire from 620 CE on, not that it ever went away as one of the languages of the empire. Greek was spoken from 330 BCE on in what is now Turkey, the Balkans and Southern Italy. It was the lingua franca of the Eastern Roman Empire.

    BTW, I am not alone in thinking that they came from Western Romania. Romanian linguists and historians think so too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    I was super fluent in German, Danish, Portuguese, Catalan, and Finnish but I forgot everything. But you still gotta trust me.
    Congratulations, you are a language savant!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Because you have a lot more eastern Romance loan words (i.e. Proto-Romanian) than you have from ancient or even medieval Greek.
    Still, it doesn't change anything that Dardania/Paeonia was likely the homeland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Still, it doesn't change anything that Dardania/Paeonia was likely the homeland.
    The homeland of who? Vlachs?

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    Regular Member Johane Derite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    As far as the Albanian language is concerned, my theory is that it was originally a local language in the Thracian/Dacian sphere in the mountains of Western Romania. During the great migration the proto-Abanian speaking tribes were pushed southwest by the Slavs and the Avars to what is now Albania and Kossovo where they mixed with local tribes with the local tribes adopting the Albanian language.
    You are right in that Albanian has most of its contact with Eastern Balkan Latin, but western Romania is too north east. Most linguists agree that the proto-Romanians were south of the danube in the time when it had intense contacts with proto-Abanian.

    The best candidate for this region is again Dardania region.

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    Regular Member Johane Derite's Avatar
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    On october 27, 2020, I coloured this image which shows Slavic toponyms in Albania to make it understandable and accesible even for a child's brain.

    This map doesn't include data on any etymologies of Albanian toponyms, it is only showing which toponyms have Slavic etymology.

    What this suggests, in conjuction with the rest of the data, is that Slavs pushed proto-Albanian speakers into Albania where this blue zone is, where they formed a cohesive enclave of sorts. This region is of course more or less Arbanon , so it also explains why this became part of the Albanian ethnonym.

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