Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Johane Derite]

On october 27, 2020, I coloured this image which shows Slavic toponyms in Albania to make it understandable and accesible even for a child's brain.

This map doesn't include data on any etymologies of Albanian toponyms, it is only showing which toponyms have Slavic etymology.

What this suggests, in conjuction with the rest of the data, is that Slavs pushed proto-Albanian speakers pushed into Albania where this blue zone is, where they formed a cohesive enclave of sorts. This region is of course more or less Arbanon , so it also explains why this became part of the Albanian ethnonym.

Linguists like Stadtmuller believed that this blue zone with low slavic toponyms, Mat specifically, was the origin of Proto-Albanians, and an enclave where there were also no Latin toponyms.

This hypothesis was later disproven however, where it was discovered that this zone was full of latin toponyms, Mat included:

[Johane Derite]

Linguists like Stadtmuller believed that this blue zone with low slavic toponyms, Mat specifically, was the origin of Proto-Albanians, and an enclave where there were also no Latin toponyms.

This hypothesis was later disproven however, where it was discovered that this zone was full of latin toponyms, Mat included:

The conclusion instead is that this blue zone seems to have been very important for the ethnogenesis of Albanians (Proto-Albanian to Albanian transition), but that it is not the original homeland of Proto-Albanians and where they originally had their intense contacts with proto-Romanians/Vlachs.

Instead, this region was later found to be full of latin placenames, for example, toponyms that proto-Albanians learnt when they migrated into this region from most likely the Dardania region.

Example of this is the latin -ensis suffix which became -esh in Albanian, which appears all over the Arbanon area, this is mentioned as proof of migration into this zone by Wilkes in his book "Illyrians" as well as Schramm :

[Johane Derite]

The conclusion instead is that this blue zone seems to have been very important for the ethnogenesis of Albanians (Proto-Albanian to Albanian transition), but that it is not the original homeland of Proto-Albanians and where they originally had their intense contacts with proto-Romanians/Vlachs.

Instead, this region was later found to be full of latin placenames, for example, toponyms that proto-Albanians learnt when they migrated into this region from most likely the Dardania region.

Example of this is the latin -ensis suffix which became -esh in Albanian, which appears all over the Arbanon area, this is mentioned as proof of migration into this zone by Wilkes in his book "Illyrians" as well as Schramm :

This matches with observations remarked on earlier by Matzinger, that North Albania shows older chronnological stages of Albanian phonetic development than South, as he mentioned, Shkodër was learnt before Durrës. What this suggests is proto-Albanian speakers moving southwest from Dardania into North-Albania and the Arbanon and then recooperating there in the medieval ages.

[Dushman]

1) Scupi, the capital of Dardania, has sk- which became the Albanian Shk-, meaning there were no Proto-Albanians in Dardania. Scupi is a name they learned later on.

2) Proto-Albanians could not possibly assimilate Romans (Romanized Illyrians) and Greeks (Hellenized Illyrians and Epirots) in only 600 years (300-900 AD as Matzinger claims) since Vlachs have been living in Albania for around 1000 years and they�re still Latin speakers to this day. Similarly, Albanians couldn�t even assimilate the Slavs (barbarians, way less urban and civilized than Romans and Greeks), who are still present in Albania. Most of R1a and I2a in Albania are from areas where the Slavic minorities live (together with Vlachs and Greeks).

Conclusion: Albanians historically LACKED the ability to assimilate others but were always assimilated and absorbed by other nations.

[Johane Derite]

This matches with observations remarked on earlier by Matzinger, that North Albania shows older chronnological stages of Albanian phonetic development than South, as he mentioned, Shkodër was learnt before Durrës. What this suggests is proto-Albanian speakers moving southwest from Dardania into North-Albania and the Arbanon and then recooperating there in the medieval ages.

This is obviously supported by the tmrca of Albanian's biggest branches, which support a demographic expansion in late antiquity, not unlike what we saw in medieval times with expansion of Albanian tribes.

This is also obvious in the Tosk ethnonym of "Arbër" vs Gegë "Arbën/Arban", namely that Tosk comes from the same demographic expansion from Arbanon that Gegë comes from. I.e. Tosk is not native dialect that developed in situ in Epirus.

[Dushman]

This is obviously supported by the tmrca of Albanian's biggest branches, which support a demographic expansion in late antiquity, not unlike what we saw in medieval times with expansion of Albanian tribes.

This is also obvious in the Tosk ethnonym of "Arbër" vs Gegë "Arbën/Arban", namely that Tosk comes from the same demographic expansion from Arbanon that Gegë comes from. I.e. Tosk is not native dialect that developed in situ in Epirus.

Tosk was already separated by the 6th century AD but we don�t know and can�t know when exactly.

The only dialect that didn�t develop in situ is Kosovo Albanian that is a late expansion and that is why it�s almost the same all over the country. The biggest difference is the Rugova dialect that came from North West Albania with the Malesor migrations.

Tosk isn�t even an accurate term since there�s Lab (which still retains the nasal characteristics like Gheg), Cham, archaic Southern Epirote with very old and interesting characteristics not found in any other Albanian dialect, and Tosk with it�s separate Myzeqeja and Korca/Kolonja and surroundings varieties, as well as archaic Arvanitika and Arbereshe.

These dialects need literally more than a thousand years to develop in such different directions, unlike the copy-paste Kosovo Albanian, which is just an extension of Malesia Gjakoves variety.

Albanians �wiped out� and assimilated hundreds of thousands of Romans/Romioi in less than 600 years, but couldn�t assimilate Vlachs, Bulgarians, Gorani, Greeks, Serbs, etc. Double standards and black and white theories all the way.

A bunch of Kosovo-centric pseudo theories that are way too convenient for Ottoman separatists. Reminds me of Rita Ora�s claim recently that Albania and Kosovo are kind of similar or something like that. What do you mean �kind of the same�?

To hell with such people. Now we have to listen to crap how 100% of Illyrians were Romanized (except the brave and legendary Dardanians that founded Troy), Albanians are not Illyrians, Albania didn�t even have Illyrians but �Adriatic tribesmen�, and the legendary Dardanian shepherds gave us Romanized cowardly slaves the Albanian language.

Scodra is not Albanian because it has Sc-, whereas Scupi (literally the capital of the Dardanians) is still Albanian and not only, it�s Proto-Albanian, Pre-Proto-Albanian, even Pelasgian and Trojan.

Autistic mode ON: The Romans did not live in the vicinity of Rome because Roma is not a Latin word but possibly Etruscans, therefore Romans are neither Romans nor Latins.

Athens is not Greek but rather Pre-Greek�etc. etc. you know the drill.

On the other hand, master Matzinger does not know when Albanian lost sk- but we do know that Skodra/Shkodra as a toponym is way older than Proto-Albanian. Logical people would understand that city names get stuck, they don�t evolve the same way with languages and random words about rivers, foods, animals, etc.

But this anti-Albanian separatist crap is just too much, especially coming from broken Albanian speaking ex-Ottoman citizens with no ethnic consciousness.

[Johane Derite]

This is obviously supported by the tmrca of Albanian's biggest branches, which support a demographic expansion in late antiquity, not unlike what we saw in medieval times with expansion of Albanian tribes.

This is also obvious in the Tosk ethnonym of "Arbër" vs Gegë "Arbën/Arban", namely that Tosk comes from the same demographic expansion from Arbanon that Gegë comes from. I.e. Tosk is not native dialect that developed in situ in Epirus.

This is accepted by most linguists also, including Albanian ones.

[Johane Derite]

This is accepted by most linguists also, including Albanian ones.

It is not even up for debate since the 20th century, the christian vocabulary of both Tosk and Gege dialects is the same, and of a northern latin variety, not of the Greek variety. This means proto-Albanian linguistic ancestors of both Gege and Tosk, even the most southern peripheral ones, were christianised in the same region. Epirus is full of Greek inscriptions and Greek variety of Christianity, so it doesn't fit yet again as the origin for where proto-Albanians were christianised.

For example, both Tosk and Gege have the same terms:

Albanian. kryq from Latin. crūx, as opposed to Greek. σταυρός (stauros)
Albanian. shêjntë from Latin. sānctus as opposed to Greek. ἅγιoς (agios)
Etc

The list goes on and on for reasons for why linguists know the linguistic variation between Tosk & Gege dialects does not predate late antiquity.

[Hawk]

I do tend to believe that tribes related to Trebeniste Culture spoke Albanoid language, and based on material culture and some personal names Dardanians do seem to be distantly related to Trebeniste Culture.

So Albanoid-like languages were spoken and probably even were part of the Danubian-Aegean Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age incursors on Greece.

One of the legendary Dorian leaders was Hyllus. Hyllus is an Albanoid word related to sun/star, and precisely these people brought the sun cult. There was a user( Aspar i think) who even suggested that Hellas stems from the same root word as Hyllus.
So, a similar scenario as Turkic Bulgars could be the case, leaving the name to the people but not changing the language of the native people. This can also explain E-V13 appearing in Early Iron Age, if it did intrude during this time in Greece.

Now, as for particular Albanian language, it can come from a brother language of these Albanoid languages, of more northern variants(Dardanian), that's a possibility why not. It can explain a lot of things. But putting simplistic models is not enough.

[Nicu]

Because you have a lot more eastern Romance loan words (i.e. Proto-Romanian) than you have from ancient or even medieval Greek.

It's true that much of the Latin lexicon in Albanian was taken from Vulgar Latin rather than directly from Romanian or Eastern Romance (although obviously that evolved from this as well). But it seems Albanian borrowed them earlier than the emergence of individual Vlach languages, or at least it happened simultaneously. A few words are arguably borrowed, but vice-versa was more common: early proto-Romanian speakers did seem to take a lot of vocabulary from proto-Albanian, unless that of course just represented the substrate. A careful linguistic analysis shows certain patterns of sound shifts and correspondences between them. I read a paper on it once but can't seem to find it anymore.

On a separate note, it is interesting the mostly one-way borrowing of Greek into Latin rather than the other way around. There are certain Byzantine/modern Greek terms from Vulgar Latin, but not that many because it was already an established and esteemed prestige language in the region that was never eroded by Latin as other languages were in the empire. Furthermore it became the official language of the Roman empire's continuation.

[Dushman]

The Illyrians from North to South used similar names with lots of overlap except for the Thracian names of the Eastern Dardanians.

There�s Arbona mentioned in the 2nd century BC where the Illyrii proprie dicti fled to, and Albanoi/Arbon/Arbanon/Arbanites/Albanites mentioned since 150 AD. There�s no reason for an unrelated bunch of Dardanians to adopt the Albanian ethnonym.

Attachment 12978

This purely speculative map makes much more sense than Matzinger�s 43 IQ theories, even though it doesn�t account for bilingualism.

Not to mention how we know from several accounts that Moesian legionaries spoke Greek too and that Greek inscriptions were found all over Moesia, thus idiotic theories of 100% assimilation and monolingualism make absolutely no sense.

[Gannicus]

Linguists like Stadtmuller believed that this blue zone with low slavic toponyms, Mat specifically, was the origin of Proto-Albanians, and an enclave where there were also no Latin toponyms.

This hypothesis was later disproven however, where it was discovered that this zone was full of latin toponyms, Mat included:

The thing about albanian that has hit me the most is how it is so heavily latinized yet never managed to become a neo-latin language, in a sense it is a fortune bcs we still have an amazing language we can study, however it is also an unlucky event: imagine the amount of problems we could have avoided had we become latinized, there'd be no doubt about our paleo-balkanic origins, like can you imagine it? A world where there is no Caucasus theory... no "GO BACK TO CAUCASUS"... no more 11TH CENTURY!1!1!1 nonesense...

We will never know how it would have looked like, also what it would have sounded like: would it be inteligible with vlach/romanian? Would we now be part of a sort of coalition of balkan latin survivors with romanians/vlachs/dalmatians, uniting our efforts to protect our heritage? All beautiful fantasies, nothing real sadly...

[Gannicus]

The conclusion instead is that this blue zone seems to have been very important for the ethnogenesis of Albanians (Proto-Albanian to Albanian transition), but that it is not the original homeland of Proto-Albanians and where they originally had their intense contacts with proto-Romanians/Vlachs.

Instead, this region was later found to be full of latin placenames, for example, toponyms that proto-Albanians learnt when they migrated into this region from most likely the Dardania region.

Example of this is the latin -ensis suffix which became -esh in Albanian, which appears all over the Arbanon area, this is mentioned as proof of migration into this zone by Wilkes in his book "Illyrians" as well as Schramm :

Well, makes sense, Dacia Aureliana aka Moesia remains the best candidate, however i wonder how did the romanians move and colonize such a big chunk of land, till Moldova, from such a small pastoral population.

We have very well settled proofs about romanians having originally been shepherds but, unlike albanians/aromanians, they later on went agricultural.

However it remains remarkable how they didn't risk getting assimilated by slavs, whereas quite the opposite is true (romanians assimilating slavs).

Maybe they moved there and easly assimilated locals, maybe locals were also latin speaking thracians/dacians, and romanians are basically a blend of the 2, time might have been on their side, so they consolidated enough before the arrival of slavs, who knows.

[Gannicus]

1) Scupi, the capital of Dardania, has sk- which became the Albanian Shk-, meaning there were no Proto-Albanians in Dardania. Scupi is a name they learned later on.

2) Proto-Albanians could not possibly assimilate Romans (Romanized Illyrians) and Greeks (Hellenized Illyrians and Epirots) in only 600 years (300-900 AD as Matzinger claims) since Vlachs have been living in Albania for around 1000 years and they�re still Latin speakers to this day. Similarly, Albanians couldn�t even assimilate the Slavs (barbarians, way less urban and civilized than Romans and Greeks), who are still present in Albania. Most of R1a and I2a in Albania are from areas where the Slavic minorities live (together with Vlachs and Greeks).

Conclusion: Albanians historically LACKED the ability to assimilate others but were always assimilated and absorbed by other nations.

Makes sense, likely from the tribal/pastoral anarchical structure of albanian society back in the day.

As for vlachs you also gotta take into account that vlachs often moved, they were semi-nomadic, so it was a hard task to assimilate them: for instance, my father side is vlach, who however came from Macedonia in the 1800s, with their sheeps, in the area of Myzeqeja.

They were always called çoban, whereas locals were referred to as Lale, however locals too might have had a vlach origin, yet what is remarkable is the fact that many city names of villages in my area are slavic:

my town is called Divjake, and a croatian friend told me that Divljak means wild/savage in his tongue, wich is a perfect description of the climate (close to the sea, very wet, very windy, with springs that are rainy, windy, wet and very cold, and summers hot, wet and sunny.

Nearby you have the abandoned fshat of Kular, wich sounds very slavic to me.

Whereas Divjake and Kular are likely western south slavic (serbo-croat), you then have the fshat of Zharnec, wich ends in a tipical -ec bulgarian suffix, and some km away from there you have the fortress of Bashtovo (bulgarian).

Idk where, but in Myzeqeja still you got Orkhovo (bulgarian), whereas Lushnje, the main town of Myzeqeja, seems Jugoslav in terms of toponymy.

Idk what to say tbh, to think Hodxha brainwashed all these slavs into becoming albanian seems sci-fi to me.

Maybe albanians do afterall have some assimilating power, for instance we also have many slavic names/surnames in my area: we as a whole are Orthodox, and our 2 versions for John are Jan (greek) and Jovan (serbian), another example is the surname Janko (other serbian version for John), or Vodo (water in serbian), the local doctor is called Jan Vodo and is very nordic looking (blonde with blue eyes) although he is short and barkaliq xD, also, another very renown family in the area are the Zhuka family, who have many nordic looking members and are a historical family of Divjake + their name, Zhuka, means a sort of herb/bush, but is of likely slavic origin.

Idk man, it's a very complex topic, drawing lines here is like what western coloners did with africa, and we saw the result.

The balkans are a complex topic, that's all i can say.

[Gannicus]

Tosk was already separated by the 6th century AD but we don�t know and can�t know when exactly.

The only dialect that didn�t develop in situ is Kosovo Albanian that is a late expansion and that is why it�s almost the same all over the country. The biggest difference is the Rugova dialect that came from North West Albania with the Malesor migrations.

Tosk isn�t even an accurate term since there�s Lab (which still retains the nasal characteristics like Gheg), Cham, archaic Southern Epirote with very old and interesting characteristics not found in any other Albanian dialect, and Tosk with it�s separate Myzeqeja and Korca/Kolonja and surroundings varieties, as well as archaic Arvanitika and Arbereshe.

These dialects need literally more than a thousand years to develop in such different directions, unlike the copy-paste Kosovo Albanian, which is just an extension of Malesia Gjakoves variety.

Albanians �wiped out� and assimilated hundreds of thousands of Romans/Romioi in less than 600 years, but couldn�t assimilate Vlachs, Bulgarians, Gorani, Greeks, Serbs, etc. Double standards and black and white theories all the way.

A bunch of Kosovo-centric pseudo theories that are way too convenient for Ottoman separatists. Reminds me of Rita Ora�s claim recently that Albania and Kosovo are kind of similar or something like that. What do you mean �kind of the same�?

To hell with such people. Now we have to listen to crap how 100% of Illyrians were Romanized (except the brave and legendary Dardanians that founded Troy), Albanians are not Illyrians, Albania didn�t even have Illyrians but �Adriatic tribesmen�, and the legendary Dardanian shepherds gave us Romanized cowardly slaves the Albanian language.

Scodra is not Albanian because it has Sc-, whereas Scupi (literally the capital of the Dardanians) is still Albanian and not only, it�s Proto-Albanian, Pre-Proto-Albanian, even Pelasgian and Trojan.

Autistic mode ON: The Romans did not live in the vicinity of Rome because Roma is not a Latin word but possibly Etruscans, therefore Romans are neither Romans nor Latins.

Athens is not Greek but rather Pre-Greek�etc. etc. you know the drill.

On the other hand, master Matzinger does not know when Albanian lost sk- but we do know that Skodra/Shkodra as a toponym is way older than Proto-Albanian. Logical people would understand that city names get stuck, they don�t evolve the same way with languages and random words about rivers, foods, animals, etc.

But this anti-Albanian separatist crap is just too much, especially coming from broken Albanian speaking ex-Ottoman citizens with no ethnic consciousness.

Overall i will add more autism to the equation, looking at Kosovo albanians, me keiq ardhje e them, they are of later arrival and formation, the almost total lack of roots and consolidated traditions/place names in the area make me think they came with the turks there or later on around the 1700s-1800s.

Dukagjin definitively has albanians with solid roots there, but i cannot say the same about the others, i think they have a similar background to the albanian component of sandzakites, they just came there due to turkish plans.

Does this now mean Serbs are right and we were brought by gEoRgIoS mAnIaKeS, and Jesus Christ was a serb (Jezu Kristovic) and he wore adidas and transformed water into Rakja? Obviously no, but i personally believe that the whole Greater Albania and the inclusion in the albanian identity of Kosovars is a disaster.

Kosovars are their own thing, but what exactly? How will they justify the keeping of the territory, their foundations don't seem very solid. What will happen when americans won't really need albanians anymore and they will let us be fed to whatever destiny awaits us? All questions with no answer.

All i can say is that the ottoman empire ruined us for good, that's all.

Feel free to insult me if you disagree with what i wrote, i'm used to it in here, it's just that at this point i cannot lie to myself and view Kosovo as a success or a great thing for albania, i actually feel it is like when you do the wider leap of the leg and realize it was a mistake but it's too late.

[Gannicus]

I do tend to believe that tribes related to Trebeniste Culture spoke Albanoid language, and based on material culture and some personal names Dardanians do seem to be distantly related to Trebeniste Culture.

So Albanoid-like languages were spoken and probably even were part of the Danubian-Aegean Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age incursors on Greece.

One of the legendary Dorian leaders was Hyllus. Hyllus is an Albanoid word related to sun/star, and precisely these people brought the sun cult. There was a user( Aspar i think) who even suggested that Hellas stems from the same root word as Hyllus.
So, a similar scenario as Turkic Bulgars could be the case, leaving the name to the people but not changing the language of the native people. This can also explain E-V13 appearing in Early Iron Age, if it did intrude during this time in Greece.

Now, as for particular Albanian language, it can come from a brother language of these Albanoid languages, of more northern variants(Dardanian), that's a possibility why not. It can explain a lot of things. But putting simplistic models is not enough.

I actually find myself to agree with you on the possibility that something similar with bulgarians might have happened with Hellas, it makes sense, however this whole name thing is too speculative for me, i'd prefer solid linguistical/genetic evidence, also, what if something similar has happened with albanians and the albanian identity/language...

[Gannicus]

It's true that much of the Latin lexicon in Albanian was taken from Vulgar Latin rather than directly from Romanian or Eastern Romance (although obviously that evolved from this as well). But it seems Albanian borrowed them earlier than the emergence of individual Vlach languages, or at least it happened simultaneously. A few words are arguably borrowed, but vice-versa was more common: early proto-Romanian speakers did seem to take a lot of vocabulary from proto-Albanian, unless that of course just represented the substrate. A careful linguistic analysis shows certain patterns of sound shifts and correspondences between them. I read a paper on it once but can't seem to find it anymore.

On a separate note, it is interesting the mostly one-way borrowing of Greek into Latin rather than the other way around. There are certain Byzantine/modern Greek terms from Vulgar Latin, but not that many because it was already an established and esteemed prestige language in the region that was never eroded by Latin as other languages were in the empire. Furthermore it became the official language of the Roman empire's continuation.

Yeah, the almost "untouchedness" of greek is truly remarkable.

As for Albanian borrowing vulgar latin words, could it have been from roman settlers of italic origin, maybe a roman ruling class who spoke latin officially while being italic and in daily life speaking some vulgar latin language.

I once heard a study that claimed aromanian comes from a dialect of Tuscany, dunno how true that is, but it would be an interesting experiment to do a cross testing of latin words between albanian, romanian, aromanian vs many different vulgar italic languages of the time, who knows what could come out of it.

[Gannicus]

The Illyrians from North to South used similar names with lots of overlap except for the Thracian names of the Eastern Dardanians.

There�s Arbona mentioned in the 2nd century BC where the Illyrii proprie dicti fled to, and Albanoi/Arbon/Arbanon/Arbanites/Albanites mentioned since 150 AD. There�s no reason for an unrelated bunch of Dardanians to adopt the Albanian ethnonym.

Attachment 12978

This purely speculative map makes much more sense than Matzinger�s 43 IQ theories, even though it doesn�t account for bilingualism.

Not to mention how we know from several accounts that Moesian legionaries spoke Greek too and that Greek inscriptions were found all over Moesia, thus idiotic theories of 100% assimilation and monolingualism make absolutely no sense.

At this point i would actually suggest 2 things:

1) Albanians became who they became as a result of a gradual work in progress, and could possibly be the result of a population who assumed a ruling class's customes and language.

2) There was no such thing as an "albanian identity or language" back in the day, so even if somebody likely spoke an albanoid idiom it could have belonged and identified with a different ethnos, heck i don't even believe at the time albanians were in the position of belonging to an ethnos, as the societal structure didn't allow for it: albanians lived in anarchy, or better say their ancestors.

point Nr.2 is supported also by how easly albanians accepted foreign rule unless it was too oppressive and violent, like it was the case with the ottomans, wich also gives a final blow to the dacian theory, wich i myself romantically supported back in the day, as dacians couldn't accept foreign rule at all... but this is also the case for romanians, their south-western balkanic origins are now ingraved in stone, they likely had the same origin as albanians and aromanians in southwestern Serbia and Kosovo + Montenegro and part of Northern Albania, so bye bye dacian theory for them.

Overall i'd also encourage every fellow balkaner who is reading this, to stop using the ethnogenesis of a population to claim territories, albanophones or proto-albanophones inhabiting late antiquity and prior Dardania are not a valid pretext for Greater Albania, also, albanians not being a well established and determined ethnos, with very little records certifying our existence, does not mean albanians are not native and live rightfully in the balkans, so all this "i came first" thing is simply autism, also remembering that a big chunk of jugoslav autosomal dna is paleo-balkanic/pre-slavic, especially when talking about the serbs (cuz slovenes especially and croatians in Slavonija and northern areas, are not so mixed with paleo-balkanic elements), just look at their national team, it's easier to find a blond guy in Albania than Serbia (sarcasm but not so much).

[Gannicus]

Overall i will add more autism to the equation, looking at Kosovo albanians, me keiq ardhje e them, they are of later arrival and formation, the almost total lack of roots and consolidated traditions/place names in the area make me think they came with the turks there or later on around the 1700s-1800s.

Dukagjin definitively has albanians with solid roots there, but i cannot say the same about the others, i think they have a similar background to the albanian component of sandzakites, they just came there due to turkish plans.

Does this now mean Serbs are right and we were brought by gEoRgIoS mAnIaKeS, and Jesus Christ was a serb (Jezu Kristovic) and he wore adidas and transformed water into Rakja? Obviously no, but i personally believe that the whole Greater Albania and the inclusion in the albanian identity of Kosovars is a disaster.

Kosovars are their own thing, but what exactly? How will they justify the keeping of the territory, their foundations don't seem very solid. What will happen when americans won't really need albanians anymore and they will let us be fed to whatever destiny awaits us? All questions with no answer.

All i can say is that the ottoman empire ruined us for good, that's all.

Feel free to insult me if you disagree with what i wrote, i'm used to it in here, it's just that at this point i cannot lie to myself and view Kosovo as a success or a great thing for albania, i actually feel it is like when you do the wider leap of the leg and realize it was a mistake but it's too late.

What i'm trynna say here is that there definitely were albanophones in the area, however they got fully assimilated by serbs at the time of Stefan Nemanjic, Njegos, etc.

By the time muslim albanians, as a later, ottoman wave, came to Kosovo there were no more self identified albanians, or there never were to begin with (who knows what the original albanophones identified as before becoming serbian.)

[Excine]

(facepalm) this thread has been infested by just complete idiocy.

[Johane Derite]

for instance, my father side is vlach, who however came from Macedonia in the 1800s, with their sheeps, in the area of Myzeqeja.

Great to know this. So now it is clear finally after years of post from you that you are by self-admission not even an Albanian, you are a Vlach.

Explains a lot...

[Archetype0ne]

snip

Never have I seen someone talk so much ish about stuff he has no clue about. Whatever drugs you are taking, lay them down, they ain't doing a good number on you.

I would have offended you now, but it is obvious that you are not Albanian , and it is obvious, that unless you have some mental issue this whole pointless spam is some 4d bait.

Just do us all a favor, and keep Albanians out of your mouth.

[Excine]

Never have I seen someone talk so much ish about stuff he has no clue about. Whatever drugs you are taking, lay them down, they ain't doing a good number on you.

I would have offended you now, but it is obvious that you are not Albanian , and it is obvious, that unless you have some mental issue this whole pointless spam is some 4d bait.

Just do us all a favor, and keep Albanians out of your mouth.

Don't waste your precious time with him; he's definitely not Albanian and keeps spewing meaningless chunks of text. I have no idea where his head is.

[Gannicus]

Great to know this. So now it is clear finally after years of post from you that you are by self-admission not even an Albanian, you are a Vlach.

Explains a lot...

My mother's actually Albanian, from Berat, so yes and no, also it is not up to you to decide, state, evaluate my identity.

No, this actually explains nothing tbh, but you can think what you want, you will regardless so...

[Johane Derite]

My mother's actually Albanian, from Berat, so yes and no, also it is not up to you to decide, state, evaluate my identity.

No, this actually explains nothing tbh, but you can think what you want, you will regardless so...

It is simply stating facts, you are objectively not Albanian, you are not of Albanian origin. There is nothing further to discuss, Albanian identity has always been paternally determined according to Albanian traditional law.

Regardless, your maternal line likewise is probably some crypto-vlach or crypto-bulgarian one and also not actually Albanian.

The irony is not lost on anybody here that you were trying to argue that 2 million Kosova Albanians are not really Albanian, when you yourself are not an Albanian and you will never be one, your children will never be Albanian, etc.