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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Sometime 800-900 AD, early Albanians moved west, and mostly settle over the Kruja-Komani habitat, some the southern groups though did not have much encounter with the Kruja-Komani people, and it shows through the low frequency of J2b.
    Using formal methods and beginning with the autosomal composition of Albania, the Southern Arc papers argue against any statistically significant population shift in Albania.


    Archetype0ne demonstrated with formal methods that Albanians cannot be descended from a group that did not resemble the Çinamak Iron Age population. In actuality, folks from post-medieval northern Albania have the same genetic profile as those from Çinamak.

    No Albanian E-V13 has been discovered in the eastern Balkans. E-V13 exhibits comparable diversity to all other important Albanian haplogroups, and its TMRCA among Albanians cannot be less significant than that of J-L283, R-Z2103+, or R-PF755+.

    The majority of Albanian J2b-L283 is under PH4679, which formed around 1478 BCE and has a TMRCA of around 1278 BCE. Albanians are present in virtually all major subclades. This is a lineage that has always been part of the Albanian people; it is clearly of Illyrian origin, and its distribution east of Dardania is implausible.

    There is absolutely no possibility that anyone could argue that J-PH4679 was "assimilated" by Albanians between 500 and 900 CE, given that Albanians are present in all major subclades of this lineage. A subclade that joins a population at a later time is only partially and never fully represented in this manner. Moreover, as per J-L283, Albanians have a relatively high overall diversity. How exactly can Albanians "assimilate" J-L283 from various major clades that are more than 4,000 years apart by simply going to Albania?

    R-M269 in EBA Albania is very likely under R-PF7562, whereas R-Z29758+ individuals with a TMRCA of approximately 2300 BCE have Albanians belonging to all major subclades. Over ninety-five percent of the samples on yfull are Albanian. This haplogroup is completely absent from the eastern Balkans. How exactly could Albanians "from the east" assimilate all R-Z29758+ clades that diverged over 4000 years ago? R-PF7562+ peaks in Apulia in southern Italy, so its presence among Iapygians is not surprising. We already know that Daunians had R-M269+, therefore it's likely that they also have R-PF7562+ and/or R-Z2103+ (CTS1450?)

    R-CTS1450+ is found in IA Albania and is closely related phylogenetically to R-Z2705 and R-Y10789*. It is quite evident that this lineage did not originate in the "east." It was already in Albania during the Iron Age and was carried by Illyrians.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post868609 is Trojet's anthrogenica analysis.

    Phylogenetically, Albanians did not originate from the east, but have instead inhabited the same territories since the LBA. It is impossible to explain Albanian phylogeny in any other way, and there is solid evidence connecting western Balkan aDNA from Albania to modern Albanian phylogeny; therefore, stop posting opinions that disregard all studies, samples, diversity, and everything else that has been learned through research. This debate is far beyond such "theories."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Phylogenetically, Albanians did not originate from the east, but have instead inhabited the same territories since the LBA. It is impossible to explain Albanian phylogeny in any other way, and there is solid evidence connecting western Balkan aDNA from Albania to modern Albanian phylogeny; therefore, stop posting opinions that disregard all studies, samples, diversity, and everything else that has been learned through research. This debate is far beyond such "theories."
    LOL the mentality, impossible, always there, hater. Don't worry Exine, eventually there will be samples from the tri-border region and you'll end up in a mental institution with a stray jacket on uttering some nonsense about ancient purity, uninterrupted linear continuity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olti27 View Post
    Kruja has an albanian etymology from krua/kroi (eng water spring). Kruja was first attested as a toponym by the byzantines in the 7th century AD as Κροαί (kroai). This means that albanian speakers have been in Kruja at least since the ~600 AD. Being way up in the mountain we can push its settlement even earlier (you need time to get there and settle) witch is confirmed by 5th and 6th century cemeteries with weapons found inside. What probably happened is that during the raids from Goths, Avars, Huns and Slavs starting in the 4th centyry AD, peoples from Albanopolis looking for shelter started moving up in the mountain in Kruja witch is just 4 km away in staight line.
    I'd rather trust Johane than some Brumi dough boy wikipedia entry, who is notorious for making up fictional dates and just straight up forgery.

    Oldest yet confirmed Albanian word is from 879 AD, the name of Kruja written as "Κροῶν" which has etymology of Albanian. "krua" [spring, source (of water)].

    https://twitter.com/AlbHistory/statu...956800/photo/1

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    I'd rather trust Johane than some Brumi dough boy wikipedia entry, who is notorious for making up fictional dates and just straight up forgery.
    Yeah, better trust an anonymous on twitter than Gjergj Fishta and Robert Elsie. But anyway what johane posted doesn't negate/disprove an earlier attestation.

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Besides the Iron Age CTS1450 samples we also have a Late Antiquity CTS1450 sample from Timacum Minus. ‘East’ in company of three V13s and three L283s - all six belonging to the same Balkans IA cluster. Just a tad north of Nish. Probably local Dardanians.

    Obviously R1b+V13 Albanoids assimilating L283 Illyrians in Albania makes no sense at all considering the current data.
    Last edited by broder; 21-09-22 at 02:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    LOL the mentality, impossible, always there, hater. Don't worry Exine, eventually there will be samples from the tri-border region and you'll end up in a mental institution with a stray jacket on uttering some nonsense about ancient purity, uninterrupted linear continuity.

    Sorry, but I'm not the Serbian nationalist who asserts that Albanians arrived in Albania after 800 A.D. This is a ridiculous assumption that you're trying to spread. Obviously, it was not unbroken, but the essential component stayed the same; this is the point. Something you can't seem to grasp so instead you draw on a PCA and call yourself Lazaridis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    There are puppet accounts out here really arguing that "Zlatan" (interesting name dear "entertain") is a genuine account. Repetitive posts with the same rhetoric from multiple puppet accounts are not helping it. If the word obvious needs some prime example here it is.

    One can make a point without the use of uncivilized manners or the opening of what 7,8,9 fake accounts? This is embarrassing.
    Perhaps he is a fan of Zlatan Ibrahimovic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Besides the Iron Age CTS1450 samples we also have a Late Antiquity CTS1450 samples from Timacum Minus. ‘East’ in company of three V13s and three L283s - all six belonging to the same Balkans IA cluster. Just a tad north of Nish. Probably local Dardanians.

    Obviously R1b+V13 Albanoids assimilating L283 Illyrians in Albania makes no sense at all considering the current data.
    Probably now is only V13 assimilating R1b and L283. Looks very remote as a scenario.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Sorry, but I'm not the Serbian nationalist who asserts that Albanians arrived in Albania after 800 A.D. This is a ridiculous assumption that you're trying to spread. Obviously, it was not unbroken, but the essential component stayed the same; this is the point. Something you can't seem to grasp so instead you draw on a PCA and call yourself Lazaridis.
    No you're just a bad example of Albanians, the dumb prole that has always held us back, the dead weight, there is a reason why the country remains the most backward in Europe. Truth is not an UnAlbanian value, it is to the defects that got subsidized by the Ottomans and Communists and now liter the internet the same way they do the streets of Tirana.

    Obviously, it was not unbroken, but the essential component stayed the same
    It's not but it is. You're so special. The Greeks lost their continuity, but the special you kept it. Maybe there's 1% Slavic but that's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    No you're just a bad example of Albanians, the dumb prole that has always held us back, the dead weight, there is a reason why the country remains the most backward in Europe. Truth is not an UnAlbanian value, it is to the defects that got subsidized by the Ottomans and Communists and now liter the internet the same way they do the streets of Tirana.



    It's not but it is. You're so special. The Greeks lost their continuity, but the special you kept it. Maybe there's 1% Slavic but that's it.
    This is supposed to be a "reply"? Thank you for showing once more that you have nothing at all to contribute to this discussion.

    A quick note about Paleo-Revenge's blatant lie that there are no toponyms linked to Albanian in Albania before 700-900 CE.

    Even Matzinger in Die Illyrer connects the name of the Taulantii with Albanian dallëndyshe etymologically:

    Neben den Encheleern, deren Bezeichnung vom Aal stammt, tragen etwa die Taulantier ein Ethnonym, welches mit einer Bezeichnung für ‚Schwalbe' verbunden werden kann, wie sie z. B. in alban. dallëndyshe vorliegt. (page 120)

    The Taulantii are attested for the first time in the 7th century BCE! It's very interesting that the earliest king of the Taulantii is Galauros in ancient Greek sources which is pronounced as Galavros and may have the same etymology as the Dardanian Galabri and Calabria of the Iapygians.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaurus

    For the Roman era, both phonologically and etymologically the name of the river Mat attested as Mathis since the the 4th or 5th century AD in Vibis Sequester is Albanian.

    So thank you once more Paleo-Revenge for copy/pasting such bad arguments that you give us again the chance to show how ludicrous these "theories" were even when no DNA studies existed.

    Nonetheless, the linguistic discussion could never provide any definite answers because there's so little material and now it's become clear to everyone that linguistic speculations must follow DNA studies, hence Matzinger and many others are changing their theories. They didn't expect at all these results and so they are quickly trying to make up theories that can be reconciled with the DNA data.

    PS Troll accounts have to work overtime but they can't convince anyone. It's over for you guys 🙂

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    Mirditors score 50% Illyrian, Himariotes around 20%.


    Target: Mirditë
    Distance: 1.7873% / 0.01787285
    48.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    41.0 BGR_IA
    10.8 Polish

    Target: Himarë
    Distance: 2.2925% / 0.02292459
    59.8 BGR_IA
    20.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    20.0 Polish


    Target: Mirditë
    Distance: 1.7873% / 0.01787285
    48.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    41.0 BGR_IA
    10.8 Polish



    Target: Himarë
    Distance: 2.2925% / 0.02292459
    59.8 BGR_IA
    20.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    20.0 Polish

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    No, they don't and stop playing around with fake G25 models to prove a point that makes no sense now that we know how southeast Thracians are like. I'm not even sure that you realize how big the difference is between Albanians and these southeast Thracians and how you can't replicate via qpADM any sort of feasible model which makes them related. The paper itself using formal methods argues against any non-Illyrian regional ancestry:

    Attachment 13569

    These are the "facts" that you keep ignoring written by Lazaridis and Reich themselves:
    Didn't Lazaridis conclude that Mainland Greeks are 70% Mycenaean descendants? How much of that 70% is standing today? How did Albanians shift south after the Slavic migration? With magic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Mirditors score 50% Illyrian, Himariotes around 20%.
    Dude enough of this nonsense. You can't just pick any random ******* sample you want and mix match as you please. That's not these calculators work.

    Wtf has gotten into you lately?

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Dude enough of this nonsense. You can't just pick any random ******* sample you want and mix match as you please. That's not these calculators work.

    Wtf has gotten into you lately?
    Why don't you model Albanians without a Thracian source and see how it works?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Mirditors score 50% Illyrian, Himariotes around 20%.


    Target: Mirditë
    Distance: 1.7873% / 0.01787285
    48.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    41.0 BGR_IA
    10.8 Polish

    Target: Himarë
    Distance: 2.2925% / 0.02292459
    59.8 BGR_IA
    20.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    20.0 Polish


    Target: Mirditë
    Distance: 1.7873% / 0.01787285
    48.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    41.0 BGR_IA
    10.8 Polish



    Target: Himarë
    Distance: 2.2925% / 0.02292459
    59.8 BGR_IA
    20.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    20.0 Polish
    Did you just use 3 sources?

    I can replicate the same result with the same distance by including more sources and see what happens:


    Target: AlbanianMirditë
    Distance: 1.7577% / 0.01757701 | R5P
    59.8 ALBÇinamak_Anc
    16.6 MNE_LBA
    13.4 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
    8.6 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA
    1.6 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian

    Target: Albanian_Himarë
    Distance: 2.2725% / 0.02272510 | R5P
    31.0 HRVIA
    29.8 ALBÇinamak_Anc
    27.6 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA
    9.8 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
    1.8 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian

    Also, why are you using BGR_IA and not BGR_Kapitan_Andreevo which is the actual average for southeast Thrace? BGR_IA doesn't even have ancestry identical to the E-V13 from Thrace.

    Target: BGR_IA
    Distance: 2.1882% / 0.02188231 | R5P
    76.0 BGR_KapitanAndreevoIA
    24.0 ALBÇinamak_Anc

    Come on man, you can do better than that. Still, my point here is proven: Kapitan Andreevo won't be picked by Albanians as a main source.

    Anyway, you shouldn't use sources which are older than the immediately preceding period to model Albanians. You should just see for what we're discussing if Albanians have ancestry from late Roman/early medieval Albania or Bulgaria or Anatolia or wherever or combine IA+Roman/early medieval samples from each area and see which sources Albanians pick up:

    They definitely don't pick Bulgaria. Dalmatia might have been replaced by Dardania if we had sources from that area, but the main point is that Albania-Dalmatia-Dardania were probably very similar.



    PS I didn't even use a Slavic source in the model and I got the same fit as when you used a Slavic source. This is how low Slavic admixture is in Albanians that we don't even need to add one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    No you're just a bad example of Albanians, the dumb prole that has always held us back, the dead weight, there is a reason why the country remains the most backward in Europe. Truth is not an UnAlbanian value, it is to the defects that got subsidized by the Ottomans and Communists and now liter the internet the same way they do the streets of Tirana.



    It's not but it is. You're so special. The Greeks lost their continuity, but the special you kept it. Maybe there's 1% Slavic but that's it.
    Yeah, he's the dead weight, not you that makes up fake theories/migrations and can't bother to do 5 minutes of research and see that Geg/Tosk split in happened in antiquity.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    It's not but it is. You're so special. The Greeks lost their continuity, but the special you kept it.
    Greeks have some continuity. The issue is that Fushe-Kruje didn't become the capital of the Byzantine Empire where people from all around the world came to live.

    The Dinaric Alps have isolated Albania for thousands of years, and the autosomal DNA in the Lazaridis study shows just that, mentioned by the authors themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Why don't you model Albanians without a Thracian source and see how it works?
    Are you that dense? Did you skip the whole "Roman Imperial" era?

    Add Slavic admixture to Roman Imperial Illyrians and you get modern Albanians. The Iron Age Illyrians are pre-Roman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    There are puppet accounts out here really arguing that "Zlatan" (interesting name dear "entertain") is a genuine account. Repetitive posts with the same rhetoric from multiple puppet accounts are not helping it. If the word obvious needs some prime example here it is.

    One can make a point without the use of uncivilized manners or the opening of what 7,8,9 fake accounts? This is embarrassing.
    Dude, get yourself checked out for paranoid schizophrenia. Seriously. Not everyone is out to get you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Using formal methods and beginning with the autosomal composition of Albania, the Southern Arc papers argue against any statistically significant population shift in Albania.
    In September alone, we had a major linguistic book putting Albanian under Illyrian, and a major genetic paper saying Albanians come from Illyrian stock.

    But some of these deranged posters are accusing us of "nationalism" and "bias" while the authors of the paper are all western academics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Did you just use 3 sources?

    I can replicate the same result with the same distance by including more sources and see what happens:


    Target: AlbanianMirditë
    Distance: 1.7577% / 0.01757701 | R5P
    59.8 ALBÇinamak_Anc
    16.6 MNE_LBA
    13.4 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
    8.6 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA
    1.6 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian

    Target: Albanian_Himarë
    Distance: 2.2725% / 0.02272510 | R5P
    31.0 HRVIA
    29.8 ALBÇinamak_Anc
    27.6 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA
    9.8 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
    1.8 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian

    Also, why are you using BGR_IA and not BGR_Kapitan_Andreevo which is the actual average for southeast Thrace? BGR_IA doesn't even have ancestry identical to the E-V13 from Thrace.

    Target: BGR_IA
    Distance: 2.1882% / 0.02188231 | R5P
    76.0 BGR_KapitanAndreevoIA
    24.0 ALBÇinamak_Anc

    Come on man, you can do better than that. Still, my point here is proven: Kapitan Andreevo won't be picked by Albanians as a main source.

    Anyway, you shouldn't use sources which are older than the immediately preceding period to model Albanians. You should just see for what we're discussing if Albanians have ancestry from late Roman/early medieval Albania or Bulgaria or Anatolia or wherever or combine IA+Roman/early medieval samples from each area and see which sources Albanians pick up:

    They definitely don't pick Bulgaria. Dalmatia might have been replaced by Dardania if we had sources from that area, but the main point is that Albania-Dalmatia-Dardania were probably very similar.



    PS I didn't even use a Slavic source in the model and I got the same fit as when you used a Slavic source. This is how low Slavic admixture is in Albanians that we don't even need to add one.
    The Greek admixture is eating the Thracian one you used in one model. And around ~27% Mycenaean admixture could mean around 35% Thracian.
    Try using averages instead of using just one (of the most distant samples). And Slavic admixture is essential, but you wont use it in the first model probably you get higher Thracian.

    Roman Dalmatia has Eastern Mediterranean admixture and is closer to Thracians than to Mainstream Illyrians. In Roman Dalmatia sample you get very high Anatolian and/or Levantine which is not historically plausible for Albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The Greek admixture is eating the Thracian one you used in one model. And around ~27% Mycenaean admixture could mean around 35% Thracian.
    Try using averages instead of using just one (of the most distant samples). And Slavic admixture is essential, but you wont use it in the first model probably you get higher Thracian.

    Roman Dalmatia has Eastern Mediterranean admixture and is closer to Thracians than to Mainstream Illyrians. In Roman Dalmatia you very high Anatolian and/or Levantine which is not historically plausible.
    The Romans relocated some "problem tribes " all around their empire, splitting them ...............you should find thracian and illyrian people also in spain, france and england
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    checking a new article on Paleo-euro language ( less than 6 months old )



    nothing on the albanian region yet.......but the Rhaetic mentioned as not being a part of Etruscan as it is a older line

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The Greek admixture is eating the Thracian one you used in one model. And around ~27% Mycenaean admixture could mean around 35% Thracian.
    Try using averages instead of using just one (of the most distant samples). And Slavic admixture is essential, but you wont use it in the first model probably you get higher Thracian.

    Roman Dalmatia has Eastern Mediterranean admixture and is closer to Thracians than to Mainstream Illyrians. In Roman Dalmatia sample you get very high Anatolian and/or Levantine which is not historically plausible for Albanians.

    No, there is no "Greek admixture which is eating up Thracian". In this case, "GRC_Nestor's palace" is a proxy for Imperial Roman East Med and so is BGR_Andreevo to a great extent. If you just add a proper Anatolian source the fit improves a lot and it doesn't pick at all any BGR.

    Target: AlbanianMirditë
    Distance: 1.2008% / 0.01200799
    57.4 ALBÇinamak_Anc
    19.0 TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Camandras_Dalagöz_Rom
    15.8 MNE_LBA
    6.6 SVN_EIA
    1.2 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian

    I removed Çinamak from the model entirely and replaced it with MNE_LBA. Still, the model wouldn't pick any BGR sources:

    Target: Albanian_Mirditë
    Distance: 1.4347% / 0.01434672
    62.2 MNE_LBA
    22.8 TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Camandras_Dalagöz_Rom
    14.2 SVN_EIA
    0.8 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian

    The high Anatolian doesn't exist in reality because this is simply overfitting caused by G25, but the point to understand from all of these tests is that BGR sources are irrelevant for Albanians, unlike Çinamak-like ones.

    In fact, we don't even need an admixture model because there are Albanians who are identical from Çinamak to post-medieval Albania and you'll notice this by comparing basic components:


    To end this mini "debate", this is the scientific conclusion:



    It is fully replicated with formal methods and even with G25's limitations you can see why that is so. There's no reason for you to continue this argument because Matzinger himself has repeatedly in all possible ways distanced Albanians from Thrace, so no reason for you try to prove a point which doesn't even exist in anyone's theory.

  24. #3124
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    checking a new article on Paleo-euro language ( less than 6 months old )



    nothing on the albanian region yet.......but the Rhaetic mentioned as not being a part of Etruscan as it is a older line
    I thought proto-Greek were in Epirus, now it seems that they are all over Albania. How cool is that. It seems that the real Greeks are still in Albanian only the translators went to Mycenae. Hahahaha.


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  25. #3125
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    In September alone, we had a major linguistic book putting Albanian under Illyrian, and a major genetic paper saying Albanians come from Illyrian stock.

    But some of these deranged posters are accusing us of "nationalism" and "bias" while the authors of the paper are all western academics

    let us hope they name these tribes individually instead of just illyrian ............In Italy, they name etruscan, ligurian , umbrian, Samnites etc etc...not just as italian tribes in ancient history ..........naming it just illyrian solves nothing

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