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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

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    On P-Alb, what are your guys thoughts on it's research in the future if any, I'm curious if maybe some more toponyms will be found, to help further solidify the Urheimat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    On P-Alb, what are your guys thoughts on it's research in the future if any, I'm curious if maybe some more toponyms will be found, to help further solidify the Urheimat.

    The only proper projects I'm aware of are the Austrian one that started in 2021 January, and will finish in 2025 (link below), which is a full analysis of all toponyms in Albania with phonological development information.

    We need likewise project for Macedonia, Kosova, Montenegro, Greece, etc. Also, microtoponyms need to be analysed as well, even if it is more work.

    But without this it is unlikely to get the information required.

    If Albania is the urheimat and has no proto-Albanian toponyms, despite a century and a half of looking for them, that is just sad.

    If the urheimat is a bit more north-east and has been neglected, then maybe proto-Albanian toponyms that have been missed are waiting to be found, it would explain a lot, and would give us some concrete glimpse into proto-Albanian

    https://www.oeaw.ac.at/ihb/forschung...rachgeschichte
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The only proper projects I'm aware of are the Austrian one that started in 2021 January, and will finish in 2025 (link below), which is a full analysis of all toponyms in Albania with phonological development information.

    We need likewise project for Macedonia, Kosova, Montenegro, Greece, etc. Also, microtoponyms need to be analysed as well, even if it is more work.

    But without this it is unlikely to get the information required.

    If Albania is the urheimat and has no proto-Albanian toponyms, despite a century and a half of looking for them, that is just sad.

    If the urheimat is a bit more north-east and has been neglected, then maybe proto-Albanian toponyms that have been missed are waiting to be found, it would explain a lot, and would give us some concrete glimpse into proto-Albanian

    https://www.oeaw.ac.at/ihb/forschung...rachgeschichte
    Indeed, I agree; time will only tell, I suppose. I'm anticipating that after all these years, we can be enthusiastic and convinced about such problems rather than skeptical. That is, it would be a shame if we were unable to. However, for DNA studies, would it be beneficial to interconnect anything if possible? While I am aware that linguistic origins do not always correlate with genetic origins, it would be quite intriguing regardless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Indeed, I agree; time will only tell, I suppose. I'm anticipating that after all these years, we can be enthusiastic and convinced about such problems rather than skeptical. That is, it would be a shame if we were unable to. However, for DNA studies, would it be beneficial to interconnect anything if possible? While I am aware that linguistic origins do not always correlate with genetic origins, it would be quite intriguing regardless.
    DNA already tells us that Albanians mainly descend from a small population that underwent a bottleneck, so the main Proto-Albanian speaking community was relatively small, not a major large group spread from Epirus to Montenegro.

    If we use the Ashkenazi Jewish results as a reference, from Razib Kahn's data, we know that

    Ashkenazi Jews todays are descended from around 300 people who made it through a bottleneck of death in northern Europe around 1250AD.

    By 1600AD there were 500,000 Ashkenazi.

    It is important to make clear that 300 people is the effective breeding population (those that have descendanats that survive) and the actual population size could have been up to 10,000 people. But again, this is very small total population size.

    I think something like this must have happened with Proto-Albanians, a cohesive and tight population that survived and then began spreading and expanding.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    DNA already tells us that Albanians mainly descend from a small population that underwent a bottleneck, so the main Proto-Albanian speaking community was relatively small, not a major large group spread from Epirus to Montenegro.

    If we use the Ashkenazi Jewish results as a reference, from Razib Kahn's data, we know that

    Ashkenazi Jews todays are descended from around 300 people who made it through a bottleneck of death in northern Europe around 1250AD.

    By 1600AD there were 500,000 Ashkenazi.

    It is important to make clear that 300 people is the effective breeding population (those that have descendanats that survive) and the actual population size could have been up to 10,000 people. But again, this is very small total population size.

    I think something like this must have happened with Proto-Albanians, a cohesive and tight population that survived and then began spreading and expanding.

    From the Coop paper, Albanian's were the highest IBD sharing population, something that Ashkenazi also have in common. Coop argued that the main source of Albanian ancestry was from a relatively small cohesive group living ~1500 years ago.

    This would have been the linguistic ancestors of both Tosks and Gegës.




  6. #281
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    So in this scenario, we can imagine 300-10,000 proto-Albanians surviving the barbarian migrations, and being moved southwest.

    Then, once settled in a new area, maybe north-Albania first and then Mat regions, they begin demographic expansion.

    I don't believe proto-Albanians were really assimilating large groups of non-proto-Albanians, as this is not traditionally the case (for example Kosovo Albanians had large demographic expansions, they were not assimilating non-Albanians), they could have just had lots of children. This is supported by Albanian y-dna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    So, does Matzinger find any toponyms that DO match Albanian phonetic evolution?

    He argues that the transformation of Naissos into Niš and Astibos into Štip plausibly fits proto-Albanian sound laws.


    Also, Sharr mountains as possibly having etymology related to Alb. Sharrë (saw) for which he compares Spanish. sierra (mountain range) from Latin. serra (saw).


    Such phonetic changes would have required proto-Albanian speakers to have lived in these places for at least a couple of centuries, and south slavs to then learn these placenames from them.

    We can therefore attempt to delineate a minimal possible zone of a proto-Albanian speaking enclave between these three points at least for a couple of centuries before Slav migrations into this region.


    Our best chance now comes from looking within this triangle, as it is the only positive evidence that is agreed on by both Illyrian and non-Illyrian proponents (matzinger, etc).

    So this area should be archaeologically, and linguistically studied to try weed out possible proto-Albanian toponyms, material culture, etc. Will require mountain archaeology, which isnt easy, etc.

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    Thank you for putting things in their proper perspectives. I'm not sure I understand completely what you're saying, Johane, but does this indicate that we were perhaps in greater numbers prior to the bottleneck of proto-albs, perhaps during the early proto-albanian period? Doing so allows you to live in a broader geographical area. Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say although.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Thank you for putting things in their proper perspectives. I'm not sure I understand completely what you're saying, Johane, but does this indicate that we were perhaps in greater numbers prior to the bottleneck of proto-albs, perhaps during the early proto-albanian period? Doing so allows you to live in a broader geographical area. Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say although.
    I think there must have been more living adjacent proto-Albanian dialects before that bottleneck event, but we do not descend from those people, at closest they are cousins that we have a certain responsibility towards, but we need to first pinpoint exactly which specific group we descend and get our language from.

    Puka today for example has a population of ~6000 people.

    If the proto-Albanian community was of such a size, that then demographically expanded to ~500,000 people within 400 years after their bottleneck event (as was a similar scenario in the Ashkenazi situation), then to understand our past concretely, we need to know concretely that region our ancestors survived in, what concretely they survived from, where they came from if they moved, for what reason they moved, etc.

    Lets say that political chaos happens next year, and there are mass invasions and war of Albania, there is even more disease than now, and in 200 years, most Albanian speaking communities have collapsed, been wiped out, have not had enough kids to keep reproducing, or have been assimilated by invading parties, and that only in Puka, a tight community, there survives a small group of Albanian speaking people.

    If such a situation happens, and then slowly that community starts growing once the chaos dies down, they start thriving and expanding back down into cities and further down, with enough time there will be again a large Albanian speaking region. But if 2000 years from now, some person who descends from one of those Puka survivors who is living in Vlora thinks he is a descndant of the Tosks just because he is geographically in the same location as them, then he would be mistaken.

    Likewise, we need to know exactly which group we come from to really know the proto-Albanians. And once we have pinpointed that down, then can we extend into related dialect groups and cousins which were wiped out.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Speaking about some plausible proto-albanian toponymy, hydronymy etc, I have seen something quite interesting
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudrinje



    Any ideas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Speaking about some plausible proto-albanian toponymy, hydronymy etc, I have seen something quite interesting
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudrinje

    Any ideas?
    Like proposed etymologies of Skodra, probably related to Lithuanian. Skardus/skardingas [steep, deep], Lithuanian Skardis. [steep slope].

    The *sk cluster doesn't fit it being of an Albanian origin.

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    Interesting nonetheless, we will have to wait for more research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Interesting nonetheless, we will have to wait for more research.
    This etymology is supported further by Shkurda in Kotor, which is a gorge.

    A gorge is by definition: a narrow valley between hills or mountains, typically with steep rocky walls and a stream running through it

    The form shkurda shows Albanian mediation into the slavic languages, but it also shows Latin era entry into Albanian language, that it was not inherited from pre latin (scuola -> shkollë).

    So shkurda is also related etymologically to this Lithuanian. skardis cognate etymology, as is Scardona in Croatia, etc, all these illyrian placenames that do not match proto-Albanian.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for the juxtaposition!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This etymology is supported further by Shkurda in Kotor, which is a gorge.

    A gorge is by definition: a narrow valley between hills or mountains, typically with steep rocky walls and a stream running through it

    The form shkurda shows Albanian mediation into the slavic languages, but it also shows Latin era entry into Albanian language, that it was not inherited from pre latin (scuola -> shkollë).

    So shkurda is also related etymologically to this Lithuanian. skardis cognate etymology, as is Scardona in Croatia, etc, all these illyrian placenames that do not match proto-Albanian.

    Contrast with the Paeonian capital that appears in the Iliad: "Amudon/Amydon" which Georgiev etymologises as *ambh(i)-udon meaning "around the water" (the first chapter in that screenshot)

    This is awfully close to the reconstruction of the Proto-Albanian word for "water" by matzinger & shumacher: Udan

    So in an old Paeonian toponym we have something that appears quite Albanoid..


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Contrast with the Paeonian capital that appears in the Iliad: "Amudon/Amydon" which Georgiev etymologises as *ambh(i)-udon meaning "around the water" (the first chapter in that screenshot)

    This is awfully close to the reconstruction of the Proto-Albanian word for "water" by matzinger & shumacher: Udan

    So in an old Paeonian toponym we have something that appears quite Albanoid..


    Pyraechmes came from the city of Amydon. Although Homer mentions Pyraechmes as the leader of the Paeonians early on in the Iliad, in the Trojan Catalogue, Pyraechmes plays a minor role compared to the more illustrious Asteropaeus, a later arrival to the front. Unlike Asteropaeus, Homer does not provide a pedigree for Pyraechmes (although Dictys Cretensis says his father was Axius - also the name of a river in Paeonia).

    Asteropaeus. A son of Pelegon, and grandson of the river god Axius, was the commander of the Paeonians in the Trojan war,
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    Well, makes sense, Dacia Aureliana aka Moesia remains the best candidate, however i wonder how did the romanians move and colonize such a big chunk of land, till Moldova, from such a small pastoral population.

    We have very well settled proofs about romanians having originally been shepherds but, unlike albanians/aromanians, they later on went agricultural.

    However it remains remarkable how they didn't risk getting assimilated by slavs, whereas quite the opposite is true (romanians assimilating slavs).

    Maybe they moved there and easly assimilated locals, maybe locals were also latin speaking thracians/dacians, and romanians are basically a blend of the 2, time might have been on their side, so they consolidated enough before the arrival of slavs, who knows.
    You know that's something I've wondered about myself... I'm one of the few Romanians who actually believes the ethnogenesis was more complex than the mainstream and basic school texts tell you (I guess because I mostly grew up abroad and did independent non-biased research). I think it's a mixture of people who stayed there from the Dark Ages in little mountain strongholds (though this is admittedly poorly documented) and also people coming up from south of the Danube, although not that far south. Many of the same Latinized Daco-Thracians were evacuated and moved just a bit to the southwest into what is now eastern Serbia and northwestern Bulgaria. The Moesia area, the new "Dacia" as they called it in the Late Roman Empire. So in a way it wasn't like some totally different unrelated people who moved back up. I think they were a little on both sides of the river and blended together, also being influenced by Slavs and other migrants, but Moldova and the northern/eastern reaches certainly weren't colonized till later, and still retains a lot of pre-Vlach features. The argument is mostly with Hungarians about who was in Transylvania first though, but I personally don't care that much about that.

    All the same, I can see why it is difficult to believe migrants assimilating other populations into them (meaning the others switched to their language/culture rather than vice-versa), so this is still perplexing...

    I think at one point proto-Albanian speakers were also more widespread and reached further north of Kosovo into parts of Serbia and Bulgaria too, where the cross-influences happened, with both populations being largely pastoral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    In "The Albanian autochthony hypothesis from the perspective of linguistics", Matzinger argues:


    -Proto-Albanians migrated to Albania ~300-900 AD
    -North Albania has older Albanian presence than South
    -Albanian ethnogenesis is result of Christian Albanian pastoral communities coming into confrontation with non-Christian Slavs
    -The area they migrated from are the late antiquity provinces of Dardania, Moesia, Dacia Mediterranea, Dacia Ripensis


    Albanian Y-DNA does suggest a late antiquity bottleneck within this 300-900AD period, interestingly enough.

    This exact region is where Georgiev argued that Albanian descended from a non-Illyrian, non-Thracian, specifying Dardania, which he called "Daco-Mysian".


    He believed Dardania had an Albanian etymology, and that despite low attestation many "Dacian" words had parallels in Albanian.

    Since his time there have been some developments, the main one being that linguists like Matzinger, Shumacher, etc, who have extensively studied old Albanian texts, no longer believe in a "Dacian" substratum in Romanian/Vlach languages.

    The evidence is clear that they are simply loanwords from Proto-Albanian into Proto-Romanian.

    And what was important for his scheme was that "Daco-Mysian" was not Thracian just as much as Phrygian was not Thracian.

    I think that the term "Dacian" was wrong to use and the term "Dardano-Mysian" should be used, since Dardanoi and Mysi appear since the Homeric era as something separate, whereas the term "Dacian" is a very very late term.

    Likewise, there are issues with a perfect overlapping of Dacian and Albanian places they fit, whereas others they just do not like with Thracian.

    I think it is obvious that a "Dardanian" substrate or adstrate was present in these regions, that affected the proto-Messapics and some Illyrians in the west, and some Thracians in the East, such that you find Albanoid features in "Daco-Mysian" regions of Thrace like you do in Messapic regions.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This exact region is where Georgiev argued that Albanian descended from a non-Illyrian, non-Thracian, specifying Dardania, which he called "Daco-Mysian".


    He believed Dardania had an Albanian etymology, and that despite low attestation many "Dacian" words had parallels in Albanian.

    Since his time there have been some developments, the main one being that linguists like Matzinger, Shumacher, etc, who have extensively studied old Albanian texts, no longer believe in a "Dacian" substratum in Romanian/Vlach languages.

    The evidence is clear that they are simply loanwords from Proto-Albanian into Proto-Romanian.

    And what was important for his scheme was that "Daco-Mysian" was not Thracian just as much as Phrygian was not Thracian.

    I think that the term "Dacian" was wrong to use and the term "Dardano-Mysian" should be used, since Dardanoi and Mysi appear since the Homeric era as something separate, whereas the term "Dacian" is a very very late term.

    Likewise, there are issues with a perfect overlapping of Dacian and Albanian places they fit, whereas others they just do not like with Thracian.

    I think it is obvious that a "Dardanian" substrate or adstrate was present in these regions, that affected the proto-Messapics and some Illyrians in the west, and some Thracians in the East, such that you find Albanoid features in "Daco-Mysian" regions of Thrace like you do in Messapic regions.




    Forever parroting your desperate Kosovan attempts to take exclusivity on Albanian but
    you keep dodging the etymology of Scupi - the capital of Dardania - with its supposedly non-Albanian Sk-. If it was Albanian it would be Hupi or Hopi or whatever gibberish you believe in.

    Likewise, the adoption of Doric words such as drapanon (drapn) and makhanon (mokn) around the time when the Corinthians created the Adriatic colonies proves that Albanian was spoken in modern Albania and not in your Dardano-Mysian homeland, which was one of the most Latinized areas in the Balkans, giving birth to a large extent to later Vlachs.

    Vlach/Romanian received proto-Albanian words from their Western and South-Western neighbours around modern Montenegro and Albania, especially concentrated along the Dinaric Alps down to the Pindus mountains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This exact region is where Georgiev argued that Albanian descended from a non-Illyrian, non-Thracian, specifying Dardania, which he called "Daco-Mysian".


    He believed Dardania had an Albanian etymology, and that despite low attestation many "Dacian" words had parallels in Albanian.

    Since his time there have been some developments, the main one being that linguists like Matzinger, Shumacher, etc, who have extensively studied old Albanian texts, no longer believe in a "Dacian" substratum in Romanian/Vlach languages.

    The evidence is clear that they are simply loanwords from Proto-Albanian into Proto-Romanian.

    And what was important for his scheme was that "Daco-Mysian" was not Thracian just as much as Phrygian was not Thracian.

    I think that the term "Dacian" was wrong to use and the term "Dardano-Mysian" should be used, since Dardanoi and Mysi appear since the Homeric era as something separate, whereas the term "Dacian" is a very very late term.

    Likewise, there are issues with a perfect overlapping of Dacian and Albanian places they fit, whereas others they just do not like with Thracian.

    I think it is obvious that a "Dardanian" substrate or adstrate was present in these regions, that affected the proto-Messapics and some Illyrians in the west, and some Thracians in the East, such that you find Albanoid features in "Daco-Mysian" regions of Thrace like you do in Messapic regions.




    And classical Greeks in South. Via people related to Trebeniste Culture which was a culture closely associated with Proto-Dardanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This exact region is where Georgiev argued that Albanian descended from a non-Illyrian, non-Thracian, specifying Dardania, which he called "Daco-Mysian".


    He believed Dardania had an Albanian etymology, and that despite low attestation many "Dacian" words had parallels in Albanian.

    Since his time there have been some developments, the main one being that linguists like Matzinger, Shumacher, etc, who have extensively studied old Albanian texts, no longer believe in a "Dacian" substratum in Romanian/Vlach languages.

    The evidence is clear that they are simply loanwords from Proto-Albanian into Proto-Romanian.

    And what was important for his scheme was that "Daco-Mysian" was not Thracian just as much as Phrygian was not Thracian.

    I think that the term "Dacian" was wrong to use and the term "Dardano-Mysian" should be used, since Dardanoi and Mysi appear since the Homeric era as something separate, whereas the term "Dacian" is a very very late term.

    Likewise, there are issues with a perfect overlapping of Dacian and Albanian places they fit, whereas others they just do not like with Thracian.

    I think it is obvious that a "Dardanian" substrate or adstrate was present in these regions, that affected the proto-Messapics and some Illyrians in the west, and some Thracians in the East, such that you find Albanoid features in "Daco-Mysian" regions of Thrace like you do in Messapic regions.
    Some examples he cites:


    Dacian. Amalusta [camomile]
    Albanian. Ambël [sweet]


    Dacian. Drubetis [placename]
    Albanian. Dru [wood]


    Dacian. Zermisirga [placename]
    Albanian. Zjerm [fire]


    Dacian. Karpates [Placename]
    Albanian. Karpë [rocky hill]

    Dacian. Mantia [blackberry]
    Albanian. Man [blackberry]


    Dacian. Polondova, later Pelendova [placename]
    Albanian. Pelë [mare] from proto-Albanian *pōl-nā,


    Dacian. Patavissa [placename]
    Albanian. Vis [locality, place]


    Dacian. Maluensis [placename]
    Albanian. Mal [mountain]

    "Daco-Mysian." Ouendenis/Vindenis [placename in Dardania]
    Albanian. vend [place, location]


    Daco-Mysian. Vetespios/Ouetespios [epithet of a god]
    Albanian. Vetë [self, person]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This exact region is where Georgiev argued that Albanian descended from a non-Illyrian, non-Thracian, specifying Dardania, which he called "Daco-Mysian".


    He believed Dardania had an Albanian etymology, and that despite low attestation many "Dacian" words had parallels in Albanian.

    Since his time there have been some developments, the main one being that linguists like Matzinger, Shumacher, etc, who have extensively studied old Albanian texts, no longer believe in a "Dacian" substratum in Romanian/Vlach languages.

    The evidence is clear that they are simply loanwords from Proto-Albanian into Proto-Romanian.

    And what was important for his scheme was that "Daco-Mysian" was not Thracian just as much as Phrygian was not Thracian.

    I think that the term "Dacian" was wrong to use and the term "Dardano-Mysian" should be used, since Dardanoi and Mysi appear since the Homeric era as something separate, whereas the term "Dacian" is a very very late term.

    Likewise, there are issues with a perfect overlapping of Dacian and Albanian places they fit, whereas others they just do not like with Thracian.

    I think it is obvious that a "Dardanian" substrate or adstrate was present in these regions, that affected the proto-Messapics and some Illyrians in the west, and some Thracians in the East, such that you find Albanoid features in "Daco-Mysian" regions of Thrace like you do in Messapic regions.





    did he use term Mysian in the Daco-Mysian .............representing Mysia in northern Asia-Minor ? ...................does he state why the name

    Dardanians had the most fertile lands in the Moesia at the start of their history ......................thracians took it all eventually

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    did he use term Mysian in the Daco-Mysian .............representing Mysia in northern Asia-Minor ? ...................does he state why the name
    Dardanians had the most fertile lands in the Moesia at the start of their history ......................thracians took it all eventually
    Daco-Moesian instead of Daco-Mysian. The Moesians are not the same as the Mysians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Daco-Moesian instead of Daco-Mysian. The Moesians are not the same as the Mysians.
    He used the term Daco-Mysian. He believed the Mysians and Moesians had same origin, and the y -> oe sound change in Mysi -> Moesi is reflected in Albanian.

    He should have used the term Dardano-Mysian or something as he believed the Dardanians were non-Illyrian non-Thracian and also related to the Dardanoi of Troy, but he labelled their language as "Daco-Mysian".

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    In the Albanian oral epics, a type of grave culture is mentioned, namely that of megalthic graves.

    In the Albanian Songs of the Frontier Warriors, a passage describes the construction of a megalithic grave so heavy that "3,000 men" wouldn't be able to lift it.

    Such menhir style graves are found in the highlands of Sharr, Has, etc.

    A lot of mountain archaeology is going to be needed to map out and isolate the Proto-Albanians origins. If this is an authentic grave tradition that persisted in the oral epics, then we will need to map out all locations, etc.


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