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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

  1. #3226
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    What you said about E-V13 can also be said about R1b and J2b. This does not make R1b and J2b Ottoman era founder effects.
    This has more to do with population boost after the 15th century rather than a founder effect during the Ottoman era.
    Of course it can be said about those. That's exactly what happened. They just happened at different eras, which is what you can't seem to comprehend. R1b-M269 expansion was during the early Bronze Age, while J2b during the Middle Bronze Age.

    TCMRA of EV13 is old enough, but it didn't become a pan-European lineage until the Roman Empire. It very likely moved from eastern Balkans/Anatolia/or wherever the "Roman Imperial" East Med admixture came from.

    Numbers wise, the country with most EV13 men is Italy. It's just Italy is much larger than Albania or Greece so it's harder to take over completely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyria View Post
    The Abroi were situated near the Fan river valleys and the Drin river in Northern Albania. It's possible their name could have been 'Arbi' as stated in the quote below. Arbi, Albani, Arbanasi, Arbanon, are all likely the same people. Even the the tribe "Iliri" was near these people in Northern/Central Albania, and over time became the name used to denote all the tribes in West Balkans as 'Illyrians'

    The Drin and Fan rivers never meet .........

    The Fan river is where the Taulantii lived ................next to Lehze gulf .......north of Durres

    and the Drin is where the Labeatae

    Where are these abroi ??? ......................looks like they sit inside of the Taulantii..............

    Hecataeus places the Arbroi near the Taulantii


    what are you trying to say......they merged with the Taulantii ??
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  3. #3228
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The Drin and Fan rivers never meet .........
    The Fan river is where the Taulantii lived ................next to Lehze gulf .......north of Durres
    and the Drin is where the Labeatae
    Where are these abroi ??? ......................looks like they sit inside of the Taulantii..............
    Hecataeus places the Arbroi near the Taulantii
    what are you trying to say......they merged with the Taulantii ??
    It's literally in the quote I posted above, just read. It will answer your own knit-picking questions. I'll paste it again for you dear

    Hecataeus places them near the Taulantii who lived along the Adriatic and the Enchelei. In modern scholarship the Abroi are generally placed near the Mat and Drin valleys. The Abroi may have been a constituent northern tribe of the larger group of the Taulantii.[1][2]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyria View Post
    Arbanasi mentioned for the first time in the 10th century? Nope, Albanoi was mentioned in the Mat-Mirdite region of Albania since 150AD. Also we have inscriptions in Shkup, Shtip, and Finiq of people hailing from this region, long before the 10th century, and one of the inscriptions is dated to the 2nd/3rd century BC. The Illyrian tribe Abri, which was located at the Fan river valleys, has also been linked to the Albanoi. Zgerdhesh is likely the ancient city of Albanopolis
    The inscription near Shkup which actually says Albanopolis is obviously related to the Albanoi, (remember they had no illyrian names also) as is the one near Shtip, but the "Arbaios" from finiq has nothing to do with Albanopolis.

    This is Aurel Plasari's bullshit hypothesis and lies that have spammed that wiki page.

    His lies about Arbon not being the island of Rab have been debunked in this thread, and his book is one of the biggest piles of crap that has been published in a long time.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Of course it can be said about those. That's exactly what happened. They just happened at different eras, which is what you can't seem to comprehend. R1b-M269 expansion was during the early Bronze Age, while J2b during the Middle Bronze Age.

    TCMRA of EV13 is old enough, but it didn't become a pan-European lineage until the Roman Empire. It very likely moved from eastern Balkans/Anatolia/or wherever the "Roman Imperial" East Med admixture came from.

    Numbers wise, the country with most EV13 men is Italy. It's just Italy is much larger than Albania or Greece so it's harder to take over completely.
    Your Turkish coffee cup && palm reading abilities do not qualify enough for population genomics. Find another hobby.

  6. #3231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Yes, but the second quote mentioned that it appears in north albania and as far as kosova, but was going into more specific subtypes of chanelled ware (horizontal chanelling vs vertical, etc)
    Let's see where these archaeological records stands with aDNA, it requires samples from much more than single sites of course and both Iron Age and Early Christianity period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyria View Post
    It's literally in the quote I posted above, just read. It will answer your own knit-picking questions. I'll paste it again for you dear
    Knit-picking ? ................I do not like to see your summary like answers as finale
    Summaries are as ..... "useful as an ashtray on a motorbike" ............unless solid evidence is found


    more rubbish about the echelai .................they are found in Budva Montenegro like Strabo stated ....how are they neighbours?

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    Its weird but theres no real ancient e-v13 on y full
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
    The oldest sample is estimated to be 1500 ybp.
    Does anyone know old pre roman e-v13 samples from studies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Your Turkish coffee cup && palm reading abilities do not qualify enough for population genomics. Find another hobby.
    Couldn't have said it better. It is absolutely insane what that user puts out there and manages to get away with it all the time. From chronic name calling to pseudo scientific mishmash, it's comedic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The inscription near Shkup which actually says Albanopolis is obviously related to the Albanoi, (remember they had no illyrian names also) as is the one near Shtip, but the "Arbaios" from finiq has nothing to do with Albanopolis.

    This is Aurel Plasari's bullshit hypothesis and lies that have spammed that wiki page.

    His lies about Arbon not being the island of Rab have been debunked in this thread, and his book is one of the biggest piles of crap that has been published in a long time.
    Where do you think this 'Arbaios' comes from? Not being hostile, genuinely curious what you think / or if there's any other place he would have come from

    Another thing I'm curious about is the old name of Raska, used to be called 'Arsa' long ago. Where do these "Ar" names from from? The Slavs seemed to have changed this name from Arsa to Ras, then eventually Raska. Same with the island of Rab, used to be Arb. Do these "Ar" names have something to do with Proto-Albs?

    Arsa was a fortress that was refortified by Justinian during his reign

  11. #3236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyria View Post
    Where do you think this 'Arbaios' comes from? Not being hostile, genuinely curious what you think / or if there's any other place he would have come from

    Another thing I'm curious about is the old name of Raska, used to be called 'Arsa' long ago. Where do there "Ar" names from from? The Slavs seemed to have changed this name from Arsa to Ras, then eventually Raska. Same with the island of Rab, used to be Arb. Do these "Ar" names have something to do with Proto-Albs?

    Arsa was a fortress that was refortified by Justinian during his reign
    The change of arb- to rab- is a slavic sound law that happened before the end of the 800s, called slavic liquid metathesis.

    For another example, skardona became skradin, or Alb- became Lab- in Laberia through slavic liquid metathesis.

    Arb- appears in the old name of the croatian island Rab (Arba) and i dont think it was a proto-Albanian island.

    I would imagine that Arbaios has probably a similar meaning to the etymology of the island Arba, probably used in toponyms by illyrians, if not literally even denoting that this person was from that island.

    I do not think the albanoi and the abroi are the same people. We have no reason to believe that romans were writing it with an L when they never did that with the island of Arba for example.

    Im sure proto-albanians also had words with ar- but i dont know the etymology of these islands to say anything for sure.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rab

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Your Turkish coffee cup && palm reading abilities do not qualify enough for population genomics. Find another hobby.


    You should find another brain, because yours isn't functioning.

    EV13 clearly experienced a Roman-era expansion into all of Southern Europe and parts of Central/Western Europe. Like I said there are 4-5 million Italian men today, 1 in 7 with EV13. The baseline levels for southern Europe are 15-20%, while some regional peaks in Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Montenegro, Serbia go beyond that.

    I don't know if the EV13 people carried the so-called "Roman Imperial admixture" but the authors of that study clearly stated there was a strong correlation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Couldn't have said it better. It is absolutely insane what that user puts out there and manages to get away with it all the time. From chronic name calling to pseudo scientific mishmash, it's comedic.
    The guy who calls himself "Neo-Illyrian" and doesn't understand that Y-DNA is only 1 ancestor accuses others of "pseudo-science"

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The change of arb- to rab- is a slavic sound law that happened before the end of the 800s, called slavic liquid metathesis.
    For another example, skardona became skradin, or Alb- became Lab- in Laberia through slavic liquid metathesis.
    Arb- appears in the old name of the croatian island Rab (Arba) and i dont think it was a proto-Albanian island.
    I would imagine that Arbaios has probably a similar meaning to the etymology of the island Arba, probably used in toponyms by illyrians, if not literally even denoting that this person was from that island.
    I do not think the albanoi and the abroi are the same people. We have no reason to believe that romans were writing it with an L when they never did that with the island of Arba for example.
    Im sure proto-albanians also had words with ar- but i dont know the etymology of these islands to say anything for sure.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rab

    Plasari's theory is way more plausible than it being the island Rab. There's also a theory that places it in southern Dalmatia. You're trash talking (as usual) about him because you don't like the conclusions. If he was a Yugoslav anti-Albanian conspiracy theorist who thinks that Albanians came from the Carpathians in 900 AD, you would be cheering him. Instead you are cowardly writing such things because he subscribes to what genetic studies proved. I say cowardly because you would never dare to write a single thing about Plasari or anyone else with your real name and get actual criticism.

    Arb- is an Illyrian root and Arba is northern Illyrian. Proto-Albanians with whatever name were the people who lived in southern Illyria as evidenced by the highest diversity and concentration of major Albanian lineages in Cinamak. The people who were the Albani could have also been E-V13 but they were definitely R-CTS1450, R-PFT7563, J-L283, three major lineages under which Albanians have very high diversity.
    Again, if you don't like it, so much worse for you but the facts won't change. The people who spoke the closest language to Albanian, carried the same haplogroups.

    If you don't think that the Abroi are the Albani, it's also your problem. Historians who have written about this subject do consider them the same people.


    @Illyria Arbaios likely came from somewhere else in Albania, maybe in the region of the Taulanti, in the same area as the Abroi, which is most likely a Greek mistake of writing Arboi. He didn't come to the island Arba.



    Among ancient Illyrians, there was a /l/ < > /r/ shift. The name Pleuratus is found in inscriptions also as Preuratus and this is totally unrelated to Romans because the same shift is found in Greek inscriptions:

    https://epigraphy.packhum.org/text/182157?hs=23-29
    https://epigraphy.packhum.org/text/182476?hs=24-30

    Pleuratos in Durres.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Plasari's theory is way more plausible than it being the island Rab. There's also a theory that places it in southern Dalmatia. You're trash talking (as usual) about him because you don't like the conclusions. If he was a Yugoslav anti-Albanian conspiracy theorist who thinks that Albanians came from the Carpathians in 900 AD, you would be cheering him. Instead you are cowardly writing such things because he subscribes to what genetic studies proved. I say cowardly because you would never dare to write a single thing about Plasari or anyone else with your real name and get actual criticism.

    Arb- is an Illyrian root and Arba is northern Illyrian. Proto-Albanians with whatever name were the people who lived in southern Illyria as evidenced by the highest diversity and concentration of major Albanian lineages in Cinamak. The people who were the Albani could have also been E-V13 but they were definitely R-CTS1450, R-PFT7563, J-L283, three major lineages under which Albanians have very high diversity.
    Again, if you don't like it, so much worse for you but the facts won't change. The people who spoke the closest language to Albanian, carried the same haplogroups.

    If you don't think that the Abroi are the Albani, it's also your problem. Historians who have written about this subject do consider them the same people.


    @Illyria Arbaios likely came from somewhere else in Albania, maybe in the region of the Taulanti, in the same area as the Abroi, which is most likely a Greek mistake of writing Arboi. He didn't come to the island Arba.



    Among ancient Illyrians, there was a /l/ < > /r/ shift. The name Pleuratus is found in inscriptions also as Preuratus and this is totally unrelated to Romans because the same shift is found in Greek inscriptions:

    https://epigraphy.packhum.org/text/182157?hs=23-29
    https://epigraphy.packhum.org/text/182476?hs=24-30

    Pleuratos in Durres.

    Arba is a Liburnian name ..............I would like to see what Liburnian words are found in Corfu as they held the island for more than 300 years ( circa 1050 -733BC )

    the name Arba. That name belonged to the Liburnians, so far the oldest known inhabitants of the island. Arba was also the name of the Liburnian settlement in the modern city of Rab

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    FOLLOWING THE TRAIL OF THE NEW
    LIBURNIAN CIPPUS FROM RAB
    ARBA - NEW PRODUCTION CENTER OF
    LIBURNIAN CIPPI



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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Plasari's theory is way more plausible than it being the island Rab. There's also a theory that places it in southern Dalmatia. You're trash talking (as usual) about him because you don't like the conclusions. s.
    Wrong. Plasari deserves to be trash talked for misleading people and totally forcing disjointed unconnected things together to force a conclusion which doesnt exist.

    He tries to place arbon from polybius in Albania when its clearly not in Albania going from polybius' account alone. He knows that for Arbon to be in Albania then Issa and Pharos also have to be close by since they are mentioned as being in contact, but his suggestion that Issa and Pharos are Ishëm and Rodon are beyond impossible and absurd.





    From even a basic reading of Polybius we know that Demetrius of Pharos could not be Demetrius of Rodon.

    We know the Romans took "several illyrian cities" and took losses at "Nutria" as they sailed along the coast on their way to Issa.

    Plasari's model would suggest there were "several Illyrian cities", one being Nutria, in between Durrës & Rodon. This is just one of the countless facts that don't match.

    The romans at this time had already subdued the Ardiaeans, who were a way more northern Illyrian group.

    Furthermore, Polybius tells us later, that the people of Issa complained to Rome about the Dalmatians raiding them, and that Issa was in league with Trogir (Croatian town), etc.

    Plasari's hypothesis that Issa was Ishem either suggests he didn't even read any other parts of Polybius or he counts on his dumb zombie followers to just take his word for it. Either way its very poor scholarship.




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    Reposting this again since that troll with multiple fake accounts repeated a wrong statistical percentage (tHeRe Is 60% non-J2b-L283 …), and actually manages to get upvotes for that, regarding Southern Arc samples from Albania.
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    In regards to Southern Arc aDNA records of Albania:


    ID I8471 1880-1695 calBCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597 (Z609+, Z628+, FT92472-, Z40053-, CTS12554-) Shkrel (Shkodër), Albania (Cetina/Dinaric)
    ID I17633 700-400 BCE J2b-L283>? (Z589+, Z622+, Y37818-) Çinamak (Kukës), Albania
    ID I16253 658-403 calBCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y 37121 (Z1298+, Y37818+, Y106264+, FT29003-, FT34408-, Y110968-, F3754-) Çinamak (Kukës), Albania
    ID I16254 600-400 BCE J2b-L283>? (coverage too low: Z2512/CTS5382+, S23613/Z2521+, FT92472-, CTS12554-) Çinamak (Kukës), Albania


    ID I14690 1700-400 BCE R1b-Z2103>CTS1450 Çinamak (Kukës), Albania

    ID I16251 500-50 BCE R1b-Z2103? Çinamak (Kukës), Albania


    ID I14689 2663-2472 calBCE R1b-PF7562? (low coverage: L23-) Çinamak (Kukës), Albania (Balkan Yamnayan)
    ID I14688 600-400 BCE R1b-PF7562 Çinamak (Kukës), Albania
    We have samples from two tested sites from Albania, one is from the North West Shkodra where we got that Proto-Illyrian I8471 Cetina/Dinaric guy from and the very east Albanian Cinamak, Kukes samples, of which one is EBA Balkan Yamnayan with similar auDNA to other early Yamnayan dispersals as in Bulgaria and co.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Whilst I am certain to agree based on aDNA records that very early Proto-Albanians are highly likely descendants of some Central Balkan MBA nest spanning from the North to the South (likely similar to ancient Greeks, we got those Mycenean PF7562 samples too didn't we?), it is very much wrong to equate them with their Western actual core Illyrian neighbors. THESE ULANCI​ OFFSHOOTS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PROTO-ILLYRIAN CETINA/DINARIC.

    Look at the BA/IA North Macedonian results from largely Paeonian cemetries and what the archeology suggests about these sites, esp. the MBA/LBA Ulanci group and their of shoots rich in R1b-Z2103 (likely a PF7562 minority too).

    Cinamak is to the very east of Albania bordering these clearly distinct archeological complexes and R1b-Z2103 starts to appear (in only two samples, and PF7562 in solely one IA sample). Is this a coincidence? Clearly not.

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    Already mentioned by Oroku Saki:
    Quote Originally Posted by Oroku Saki View Post
    Ulanci carried R-CTS7556, and Ulanci group had some direct parallels to Paracin and Brnjica groups. It's obvious Central Balkans became a refugium for R-Z2103 already based on N.Macedonian results.

    Southern Albania also was run by Z2103, it was the Brygian territory, and the Matt painted pottery, which also influenced Ulanci originates there.

    LBA saw arrival of some Gava people (before they would form the Psenicevo and related cultures in EIA), then the Psenicevo itself. Latest was the arrival of Illyrians from the West, who have nothing to do with the original Dardanians.
    Basically Illyrians are as Dardanian as British are derived of the Bretons. But they formed the ruling class and according to reports even ruled the indigenous Dardanians with an iron fist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Whilst I am certain to agree based on aDNA records that very early Proto-Albanians are highly likely descendants of some Central Balkan MBA nest spanning from the North to the South (likely similar to ancient Greeks, we got those Mycenean PF7562 samples too didn't we?), it is very much wrong to equate them with their Western actual core Illyrian neighbors. THESE ULANCI​ OFFSHOOTS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PROTO-ILLYRIAN CETINA/DINARIC.

    Look at the BA/IA North Macedonian results from largely Paeonian cemetries and what the archeology suggests about these sites, esp. the MBA/LBA Ulanci group and their of shoots rich in R1b-Z2103 (likely a PF7562 minority too).

    Cinamak is to the very east of Albania bordering these clearly distinct archeological complexes and R1b-Z2103 starts to appear (in only two samples, and PF7562 in solely one IA sample). Is this a coincidence? Clearly not.
    I13834 from Korca is also a LBA or IA, I'm 100% confident, and he is R-PF7563.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Mirditors score 50% Illyrian, Himariotes around 20%.


    I've been playing around with the G25 coordinates. Once I was able to find the Roman Danubian Frontier data, doors began to open. Initially I was trying things out with the Southern Arc data only, but once I combined these two, things started to come in together nicely.
    I would appreciate if any of you could forward more Albanian samples, I would appreciate that because the regional ones posted by Brumi seem tempered, I really think he added a HR_IA pull to the averages, they have a suspicious avoidance of Thracian IA and an attraction to HR IA, even though the random Albanian samples do not behave this way(the opposite actually), even when I average them out. So I would appreciate any Albanian G25 coordinates. I started learning this calculator this week, so I have missed out on modern data and where it's stashed.

    My analysis, none of the Albanian_Mdv are Albanian, the Kenete(I14622) sample is not even related all, this persons lineage might live on, but his autosomal is alien. The Korca I13834 is really an ancient sample mislabeled as Mdv, see my previous post.
    The Shtike(I13839) sample is not Albanian, but it does play a role in the modern gene pool. She appears to be a local Byzantine citizen, living in a area full of Slavic toponyms, but only slightly mixed with them. It does appear that Balkan Slavs segregated themselves from the natives until late middle ages. The Shtike sample is a good proxy for a Roman-Greek speaking substrate throughout Albania(even north), Macedonia, Northern Greece.

    I pretty much ran all ancient samples against individual Albanians and looked for consistent patterns, and slowly eliminated low matches and inconsistent matches.






    1) From all ancient samples, Croatia_Novo_selo_Bunje:R3547___AD_571 and Croatia_Zadar_Hypo_banka:R3745___AD_72 seem like a good proxy for a Romanized Illyrians, it works well for all western Balkans(even portions of Greece. So I averaged those two, as the Illyrian remnant substrate.

    2) From the central and east Balkans,I combined BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186, MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10379 and Serbia_Viminacium:R9674___AD_134 as one average, as a proxy for the Dardanian-Thracian population. This mixture works super well for Romanians, central Balkans and us(Albanians). I suspect the Viminacium represents a Moesian proxy, so mixing all these three points together does seem to give a good proxy for a population living south-east of Nish.

    3) I selected Croatia_Trogir_Policij as a proxy for middle eastern source, otherwise you need ancient Armenian and IA Levant to make it smooth. It works very well for western Balkans, Greek Marathon works well for modern Greeks.


    4) Alb Mdv I13839 is a mixture of 30% Levant IA, 50% Romanized Illyrian, 8-10% Slavic, the rest other. It works well as substrate from Albania to Bulgaria and lowers the Levant IA average. However it does muddy up the patterns a bit, so I excluded it. The model I am using right now is super smooth and demonstrates the basics quite well.

    5) Levant IA is needed because the Trogir Policij does not capture all of it, some other source, yet to be discovered brought some additional ME mixture.




    So, I would love to have more Albanian samples, because Brumi's regional averages seem a little tempered. You can see modern Balkan Slavs and Romanians work super well with this model. It's a a very good fit. It's a keeper.
    Last edited by PaleoRevenge; 02-10-22 at 06:00.

  23. #3248
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Albanians only, the Alb average is made of the Albanian samples I was able to find online(G25 modern individuals in autosomal subforum https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Ancient-Modern), one from a link ihype had posted and two Kosovo individuals I saw posted on Anthro (Toplica).





    BTW, notice how the Alb average I made(Alb;Average and Kukes post mdv Average) do not move at all(no change) when I introduce Bell Beaker, while all Brumi's averages move, that's just sleazy.
    Last edited by PaleoRevenge; 02-10-22 at 05:57.

  24. #3249
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I forgot to add my IA Levant average is made of two samples: ASH067 and ASH068. The Kukes post-mdv show there is some Levant heavy admixture, this mixture covers Kukes, Mirdite and Dibra. It's less pronounced in these regions because Brumi and co have dressed their averages with a Beaker-Illyrian component.

    I suspect this mysterious Levant heavy mixture may actually represent the Komani layer(some type of ME and Illyrian remnant hybrid), however, none of the Roman Balkan samples match it's profile, I will check tomorrow if I can find the parent source in other parts of Rome and figure out it's composure. It overlaps with ALB_Mdv:I13839, but ALB_Mdv:I13839 also overlaps with my Croatia Illyrian-Roman proxy. It is for that reason I prefer not to use ALB_Mdv:I13839, because it has it's foot in two different clusters.

  25. #3250
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Whilst I am certain to agree based on aDNA records that very early Proto-Albanians are highly likely descendants of some Central Balkan MBA nest spanning from the North to the South (likely similar to ancient Greeks, we got those Mycenean PF7562 samples too didn't we?), it is very much wrong to equate them with their Western actual core Illyrian neighbors. THESE ULANCI​ OFFSHOOTS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PROTO-ILLYRIAN CETINA/DINARIC.

    Look at the BA/IA North Macedonian results from largely Paeonian cemetries and what the archeology suggests about these sites, esp. the MBA/LBA Ulanci group and their of shoots rich in R1b-Z2103 (likely a PF7562 minority too).

    Cinamak is to the very east of Albania bordering these clearly distinct archeological complexes and R1b-Z2103 starts to appear (in only two samples, and PF7562 in solely one IA sample). Is this a coincidence? Clearly not.
    Cinamak is to the very east of Albania bordering these clearly distinct archeological complexes and R1b-Z2103 starts to appear (in only two samples, and PF7562 in solely one IA sample). Is this a coincidence? Clearly not.

    They are southern Illyrians and there's R-M269 among Daunians too as there is R-Z2103 in Vucedol from where Cetina began. You should expect that when we get more Daunian or generally Iapygian samples we will find R-CTS1450 or R-PF7563. You guys all have to accept reality and stop making up new theories every week. It's becoming an obsession to deny reality.

    You went from "Albanians have nothing to do with Illyrians" to "Illyrians in Albania aren't Illyrians but Proto-Albanians".

    What's the point in all of this? These theories have hit rock bottom and now you're just arguing semantics.

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