Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[1337_]

 

[enter_tain]

Did these illiterates go over the paper that said Albanians are largely unchanged since the Middle Bronze Age?

First they were Daco-Thracians. Now they're PART-ILLYRIAN, but it's the "EV-13" Proto-Albanians that brought the language. Yet, the EV-13 dominant Albanians are nowhere to be seen in Post-Medieval Albanian.

Did these clowns read that the exact same shit happened in Greece? No EV-13 in antiquity, and just popped up the last few hundred years. The EV-13 in 1800s Greeks is also due to Proto-Albanians from 800 AD

 

[Hawk]

Author: Milos Jevtic


The text proves absolutely nothing bro. Just people who have an agenda to claim that Kosova was inhabited by Thracians and not Illyrians. Some proto-Thracians/Dacians probably did spread out there obviously and brought some cultures just like Illyrians.

Read the paper, he said aboriginal Dardanians, he didn't mention that Dardanians were Thracians, on contrary he said the Bassarabi North Thracian influence is late, the Illyrian Glasinac-Mati is from Early Iron Age and its influence diminishes in Classical Antiquity. I don't see anything wrong what he claimed, despite him being Serbian. I don't think he has a horse in the race Thracians or Illyrians.

 

[1337_]

I don't know if you are self-reflective but it's you who is quoting wikipedia, and it was Wilkes who said Albanians cannot be descendants of Illyrians. Derite made a solid contribution on this matter, there were 4 different cultures in Dardania and certainly Channeled-Ware descended was at its core not Glasinac-Mati.

That's what I said ? He was talking to me and not you. I responded to him by saying just because I quote wiki doesn't mean I trust what it says. And you're the one who is quoting Serbs.

Where is the evidence that Channeled-Ware was it's core ? Different cultures emerged because different people migrated and contributed, even proto-Thracians/Dacians that touched the Western Balkans. Certainly does not prove the Classical Dardani were a Thracian tribe. Nor do we know how different Thracian was from Illyrian in the first place. But it's one intruging line of arguments you seem to ignore how most of Dardania totally lacks Thracian/Dacian names except for the Eastern part.

As for modern Kosovo or specifically the ''Rrafshi i Dukagjinit' it falls actually within Glasinac-Mati culture from what I know.

 

[1337_]

Read the paper, he said aboriginal Dardanians, he didn't mention that Dardanians were Thracians, on contrary he said the Bassarabi North Thracian influence is late, the Illyrian Glasinac-Mati is from Early Iron Age and its influence diminishes in Classical Antiquity. I don't see anything wrong what he claimed, despite him being Serbian. I don't think he has a horse in the race Thracians or Illyrians.

OK. I understand now that you explained it better. Maybe I should of read first. I will read more about this because obviously I don't know everything about this or that much at all. But he is saying it received Greek influence in classical antiquity ?

 

[Hawk]

That's what I said ? He was talking to me and not you. I responded to him by saying just because I quote wiki doesn't mean I trust what it says. And you're the one who is quoting Serbs.

Where is the evidence that Channeled-Ware was it's core ? Different cultures emerged because different people migrated and contributed, even proto-Thracians/Dacians that touched the Western Balkans. Certainly does not prove the Classical Dardani were a Thracian tribe. Nor do we know how different Thracian was from Illyrian in the first place. But it's one intruging line of arguments you seem to ignore how most of Dardania totally lacks Thracian/Dacian names except for the Eastern part.

As for modern Kosovo or specifically the ''Rrafshi i Dukagjinit' it falls actually within Glasinac-Mati culture from what I know.

Derite has made a map, based on archaeological studies on Dardanians.

There is a lot of stuff which both Albanian and Serbian archaeologists agree on prehistoric Balkans. And, remember, it was the Serbian archaeologists like Benac who were the first to reject the Urnfield/Hallstatt origin of Illyrian and adopt the native Early/Middle Bronze Age which was quickly adopted and confirmed by Albanian archaeologists.

 

[enter_tain]

Hawk's entire posts on this forum

Dude wants his haplogroup to be relevant historically, when it was another T, J2a, J1, up until recently etc...

He wants to invent some mythical "Proto-Albanians" when Greece underwent the exact same EV-13 phenomenon.

 

[1337_]

Derite has made a map, based on archaeological studies on Dardanians.

There is a lot of stuff which both Albanian and Serbian archaeologists agree on prehistoric Balkans. And, remember, it was the Serbian archaeologists like Benac who were the first to reject the Urnfield/Hallstatt origin of Illyrian and adopt the native Early/Middle Bronze Age which was quickly adopted and confirmed by Albanian archaeologists.

Serbs can be factual and objective when they are not driven by nationalism.

I obviously admit that I don't know much about this topic or these cultures which I will read more about and learn but how do we define what was the core ? Based on the map, Channeled Ware seems to of also touched Albania ? Which sites were found more often Glasinac-Mati or Channeled Ware ?

As for Illyrians, there are various theories from what I know, from Hallstatt, Glasinac to Vucedol . That there were various Indo European migrations was proposed actually by many, including that some came during the Bronze Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture ,
Some Yugoslavs argued Illyrians had formed from the Bronze Age and that Iron Age did not affect them much.

 

[Hawk]

Have you realized the one crying and using curse-words is you, every single 2-3 posts i see you coming and instead of debating and bringing sources you stick into discussions like a fly in shit.

 

[Hawk]

Serbs can be factual and objective when they are not driven by nationalism.

I obviously admit that I don't know much about this topic or these cultures which I will read more about and learn but how do we define what was the core ? Based on the map, Channeled Ware seems to of also touched Albania ? Which sites were found more often Glasinac-Mati or Channeled Ware ?

As for Illyrians, there are various theories from what I know, from Hallstatt, Glasinac to Vucedol . That there were various Indo European migrations was proposed actually by many, including that some came during the Bronze Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture ,

You mean Albania?

Devoll, Nezir and some part of Mat. Definitely not as Glasinac-Mat. Far from it. Frano Prendi aknowledged Channeled-Ware in Late Bronze Age Albania, he called it Kanellyre/Kanellure and he associated it with so called Balkan-Danubian/Balkan-Carpathian Complex, but he rejected any idea of migration of these people, he just said it was cultural influence.

 

[1337_]

You mean Albania?

Devoll, Nezir and some part of Mat. Definitely not as Glasinac-Mat. Far from it. Frano Prendi aknowledged Channeled-Ware in Late Bronze Age Albania, he called it Kanellyre/Kanellure and he associated it with so called Balkan-Danubian/Balkan-Carpathian Complex, but he rejected any idea of migration of these people, he just said it was cultural influence.

Coon on his work on Albanians 'Mountains of Giants' claims proto-Thracians/Dacians from the Steppes settled Western Balkans too. But he considered Albanians as Glasinac-Mati and Hallstatt derived. And considered Illyrians to be of Hallstatt and Glasinac culture. But he also noticed some Thracian and Roman tools used by Albanians

 

[Hawk]

Coon on his work on Albanians 'Mountains of Giants' claims proto-Thracians/Dacians from the Steppes settled Western Balkans too. But he considered Albanians as Glasinac-Mati and Hallstatt derived. And considered Illyrians to be of Hallstatt and Glasinac culture. But he also noticed some Thracian and Roman tools used by Albanians

I certainly don't know of such case, that Proto-Thracians settled Western Balkans, despite that Coon's work is from 1950 when the Eastern Urnfield origin of Illyrians was the favorite theory in academic circles, but it was mostly because lack of extensive archaeological excavation. Read Andreas Lippert part in 2021 book Der Illyrer, he refuses Urnfield/Hallstatt influence on Illyrians.

In certainty we can say the so called Belotic-Bela Crkva Culture from EBA Western Serbia and Cetina from Dalmatian coast were originators of Illyrians.

 

[Riverman]

I certainly don't know of such case, that Proto-Thracians settled Western Balkans, despite that Coon's work is from 1950 when the Eastern Urnfield origin of Illyrians was the favorite theory in academic circles, but it was mostly because lack of extensive archaeological excavation. Read Andreas Lippert part in 2021 book Der Illyrer, he refuses Urnfield/Hallstatt influence on Illyrians.

In certainty we can say the so called Belotic-Bela Crkva Culture from EBA Western Serbia and Cetina from Dalmatian coast were originators of Illyrians.

The problem with "Illyrian in the wider sense" is that many Urnfield groups which might have been at least related Pannonian-Illyrian people, can't be tested. So we don't know what they were. But by the looks of it, they were rather R-L51 dominated and had probably as much E-V13 as J-L283. But the final word is not spoken yet.

 

[Hawk]

The problem with "Illyrian in the wider sense" is that many Urnfield groups which might have been at least related Pannonian-Illyrian people, can't be tested. So we don't know what they were. But by the looks of it, they were rather R-L51 dominated and had probably as much E-V13 as J-L283. But the final word is not spoken yet.

I admit, the Pannonian-Illyrian is still an ongoing issue not solved by Cetina/Belotic-Bela Crkva/Glasinac-Mat, neither of this subsequent cultures reach up north and west there. I don't have an explanation how Pannonian-Illyrians were formed, but looking at the location they should have been descendands of Middle Danubian Urnfielders because by Iron Age and Classical times as you said these people used cremation burials. They were renowned for that. Even the Celts got influenced by them in burial rite of cremation.

Unless, the R1b-L51 Tumulus/Hugelgraber comes into play during Middle-Late Bronze Age before their mingling with native Pannonians and formation of Urnfielder Culture?

 

[1337_]

I certainly don't know of such case, that Proto-Thracians settled Western Balkans, despite that Coon's work is from 1950 when the Eastern Urnfield origin of Illyrians was the favorite theory in academic circles, but it was mostly because lack of extensive archaeological excavation. Read Andreas Lippert part in 2021 book Der Illyrer, he refuses Urnfield/Hallstatt influence on Illyrians.

In certainty we can say the so called Belotic-Bela Crkva Culture from EBA Western Serbia and Cetina from Dalmatian coast were originators of Illyrians.

He said there were some Proto-Thracians that had spread from the Steppes and also touched the Western Balkans but he said most who settled Western Balkans were Illyrians anyway. I thought maybe some Thracians were responsible for spreading this type of Channelled ware culture or the elements in Novi Pazar. Ancestor of Dardanians was considered Illyrus by Appian:

According to a mythological tradition reported by Appian (2nd century AD), Dardanos (Δάρδανος), one of the sons of Illyrius (Ἰλλυριός), was the eponymous ancestor of the Dardanoi (Δάρδανοι).

Meaning the Autariate would of just descendant together with Dardanians from a common Illyrian origin, if the Dardanians were Illyrians that is.

The root Dard- is attested outside the Dardanian region and the Trojan-Dardanian area in several other ancient ethnonyms, personal names, and toponyms: Dardas, an opraetor epiratrum; Δερδιενις, name of Macedonian-Elimiot princes; Δερδια in Thessaly; Δερδενις in Lesbos; in ancient Apulia Dardi, a Daunian tribe, Derdensis a region and Δαρδανον, a Daunian settlement. The suffix -ano in Dard- was common to many Indo-European languages.^[30]

The name of the Dardani is mentioned for the first time in the Iliad in the name of Dardanus who founded Dardanus on the Aegean coast of Anatolia and his people the Dardanoi, from which the toponym Dardanelles is derived . Other parallel ethnic names in the Balkans and Anatolia, respectively include: Eneti and Enetoi, Bryges and Phryges. These parallels indicate closer links than simply a correlation of names. According to a current explanation, the connection is likely related to the large-scale movement of peoples that occurred at the end of the Bronze Age (around 1200 BC), when the attacks of the 'Sea Peoples' afflicted some of the established powers around the eastern Mediterranean.^[32]

^ Other Illyrian tribal names can be found in Anatolia too.


It's from wiki of course so take it as you want. Of course Thracian influence on Dardanian is still open for debate.

 

[enter_tain]

Some bad faith posters are always looking for solutions to non-existent problems. What is the issue here? The paper stated from Middle Bronze Age (which has always been cited as the Illyrian arrival archeologically) to now, Albanians have been largely been the same.

Why are Thracians still being discussed here? They're way too east (no ******* shit) to have anything to do with Albanians. Look at their autosomal profiles. They have nothing to do with Albanians. You add some extra Roman Imperial + Slavic to these people and they end up in no man's land.

Is all of this really because you don't want to accept EV-13 experienced a recent founder effect in all the southern Balkans, including Greece? Greece has like 25-30% EV13 just like Albos, and it was almost non-existent until recently.

 

[Riverman]

I admit, the Pannonian-Illyrian is still an ongoing issue not solved by Cetina/Belotic-Bela Crkva/Glasinac-Mat, neither of this subsequent cultures reach up north and west there. I don't have an explanation how Pannonian-Illyrians were formed, but looking at the location they should have been descendands of Middle Danubian Urnfielders because by Iron Age and Classical times as you said these people used cremation burials. They were renowned for that. Even the Celts got influenced by them in burial rite of cremation.

Unless, the R1b-L51 Tumulus/Hugelgraber comes into play during Middle-Late Bronze Age before their mingling with native Pannonians and formation of Urnfielder Culture?

We still don't really know who spoke an Illyrian-related language first. We know that the "proper Illyrians" being the East Adriatic J-L283 people we're talked about. But we don't know whether they were the first or only ones who spoke a related language. Actually, that is rather unlikely, that they were "alone".

But this relates to the debate where Proto-Illyrian as a language group was coming from in the first place. I say Bell Beakers, which would embed them within the Bell Beaker/R-L51 networks, but others might say different, like from earlier Yamnaya or whatever. Even if they spoke a related language, there was some ethnocultural barrier obviously, the inhumation vs. cremation rite is telling us that. Urnfield really stopped at the borderline, by and large.

As for Thracians, well, they were closer than some think. Its just we don't have that many because they cremated, for the most part, and the relevant cultures being not sampled yet.

I'm really disappointed that we have zero Basarabi and Babadag samples. I think that a lot of the E-V13 which relates to the Albanians will be found rather in Basarabi-related Western Thracian-Dacian groups, rather than the Eastern Psenichevo-related ones. But we don't know without results, especially from Basarabi.

Basarabi was as huge and very influential phenomenon, important for Eastern Hallstatt as a whole even, with Fr?g as its intermediary centre. They were one of the few Thracian/Channelled Ware groups with some subgroups with regional inhumation preference. Therefore they can be tested, but we have ZERO, ZERO samples from them as of yet.

 

[enter_tain]

What the actual f am I seeing here?

Most Albanian samples fall south of that line. What is your solution, 50% Slavic admixture + some unknown quantity?

Modern Albanians are right next to Iron Age Albanians, and this guy wants to draw up "Illuminati Confirmed" graphs.

 

[enter_tain]

We still don't really know who spoke an Illyrian-related language first. We know that the "proper Illyrians" being the East Adriatic J-L283 people we're talked about. But we don't know whether they were the first or only ones who spoke a related language. Actually, that is rather unlikely, that they were "alone".

But this relates to the debate where Proto-Illyrian as a language group was coming from in the first place. I say Bell Beakers, which would embed them within the Bell Beaker/R-L51 networks, but others might say different, like from earlier Yamnaya or whatever. Even if they spoke a related language, there was some ethnocultural barrier obviously, the inhumation vs. cremation rite is telling us that. Urnfield really stopped at the borderline, by and large.

As for Thracians, well, they were closer than some think. Its just we don't have that many because they cremated, for the most part, and the relevant cultures being not sampled yet.

I'm really disappointed that we have zero Basarabi and Babadag samples. I think that a lot of the E-V13 which relates to the Albanians will be found rather in Basarabi-related Western Thracian-Dacian groups, rather than the Eastern Psenichevo-related ones. But we don't know without results, especially from Basarabi.

Basarabi was as huge and very influential phenomenon, important for Eastern Hallstatt as a whole even, with Fr�g as its intermediary centre. They were one of the few Thracian/Channelled Ware groups with some subgroups with regional inhumation preference. Therefore they can be tested, but we have ZERO, ZERO samples from them as of yet.

You will never know who spoke an Illyrian-related language first. When you have Romans/Etruscans being identical genetically, but speaking entirely different languages (not just a different variety of IE), we know genetics will never prove this. My issue is let's not overload the word "Illyrian" by ignoring history. This is primarily a historical/geographical term. This a term used for Iron Age Albanians by the Greeks, given to them by the Greeks. We can group their distant cousins in Croatia under this umbrella, as long as there is some historical + genetic link.

Linguistically, all we will ever written down is the Messapic language. This is where the studies should be conducted. The Messapic-Illyrian genetic/historic/archeological and Messapic-Albanian linguistic links.

 

[1337_]

Cinamak was a proper Illyrian territory. Considered Glasinac-Mati site since early Iron Age.

I think you misunderstood my post. I did not say Cinamak wasn't Glasinac-Mati but that it is Glasinac-Mati together with 'Rrafshi i Dukagjinit' , the pushing out part I was referring to the claim made in his post that the Autariate had pushed out the Dardanians supposedly out of the pester since he regards Dardanians as Thracians.