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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Happy flag day to my shqipez!



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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Damn son I'm Illyrian as ****. Probably have no ev13 ancestors cos they're thracians! /s

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Damn son I'm Illyrian as ****. Probably have no ev13 ancestors cos they're thracians! /s
    The paradox is quite obvious, right?
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    The paradox is quite obvious, right?
    I think we have gone through it several times, the actual paper states that those two E-V13 Himerans are between Balkans (IMO, Illyrian-like but slightly leaning toward Thracians) and Central European (slightly leaning more toward Western Europe considering some western countries are listed on their assumption). If that doesn't scream Pannonian-Illyrian-like, i don't know what else. One E-V13 was fully Caucasus-like, that's weird, but considering that some Stamped Pottery people and their related cousins Gava expanded to Ukrainian steppe during Late Bronze Age, not only more south in Balkans, i consider he was a leftover of them.

    But, that's beyond the point, that the majority of Thracians were E-V13 carriers is almost universally accepted, and Thracians along with Celts were the biggest ethnicities in Iron Age Europe.
    Last edited by Hawk; 04-12-22 at 14:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I think we have gone through it several times, the actual paper states that those two E-V13 Himerans are between Balkans (IMO, Illyrian-like but slightly leaning toward Thracians) and Central European (slightly leaning more toward Western Europe considering some western countries are listed on their assumption). If that doesn't scream Pannonian-Illyrian-like, i don't know what else. One E-V13 was fully Caucasus-like, that's weird, but considering that some Stamped Pottery people and their related cousins Gava expanded to Ukrainian steppe during Late Bronze Age, not only more south in Balkans, i consider he was a leftover of them.

    But, that's beyond the point, that the majority of Thracians were E-V13 carriers is almost universally accepted, and Thracians along with Celts were the biggest ethnicities in Iron Age Europe.
    I think you read another subtext from what I was going for. Was not really thinking of the Himerans when I posted that, and even V13 was not the punchline.

    The punchline is that Lazaridis is a G, and the map speaks for itself, backing him up.

    I don't bother replying to clowns like Paleobrain anymore, or to other clowns trying to claim Thraco-Daco-Moeso-Besi assimilated Illyrians into the Albanian culture.

    So the question is, if there is Y and autosomal continuity, with what perversion of truth can one side with the clowns?

    PS: Again the subtext is not V13, but when we find V13 in Dardania I am sure this conversation will flow there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I think you read another subtext from what I was going for. Was not really thinking of the Himerans when I posted that, and even V13 was not the punchline.

    The punchline is that Lazaridis is a G, and the map speaks for itself, backing him up.

    I don't bother replying to clowns like Paleobrain anymore, or to other clowns trying to claim Thraco-Daco-Moeso-Besi assimilated Illyrians into the Albanian culture.

    So the question is, if there is Y and autosomal continuity, with what perversion of truth can one side with the clowns?

    PS: Again the subtext is not V13, but when we find V13 in Dardania I am sure this conversation will flow there.
    My mistake, the 2 Himeran samples are in the reddest surface of your plot, and on ph2er map they plot just more inland Western Balkans. So, i assumed you are talking about them. I noted in the beginning where they approximately should plot, ph2ter map plot is not far from what i assumed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I think we have gone through it several times, the actual paper states that those two E-V13 Himerans are between Balkans (IMO, Illyrian-like but slightly leaning toward Thracians) and Central European (slightly leaning more toward Western Europe considering some western countries are listed on their assumption). If that doesn't scream Pannonian-Illyrian-like, i don't know what else. One E-V13 was fully Caucasus-like, that's weird, but considering that some Stamped Pottery people and their related cousins Gava expanded to Ukrainian steppe during Late Bronze Age, not only more south in Balkans, i consider he was a leftover of them.

    But, that's beyond the point, that the majority of Thracians were E-V13 carriers is almost universally accepted, and Thracians along with Celts were the biggest ethnicities in Iron Age Europe.
    Herodotus stated that the thracians are the second biggest race in numbers after the indians


    The Thracians are the biggest nation in the world, next to the Indians; were they under one ruler, or united, they would in my judgment be invincible and the strongest nation on earth; but since there is no way or contrivance to bring this about, they are for this reason weak. They have many names, each tribe according to its region. All these Thracians are alike in all their usages, save the Getae, and the Trausi, and those that dwell above the Crestonaeans.


    known in Roman times as Illyricum: it covered a
    vast territory from the Adriatic to Pannonia and
    from Moesia to Noricum and the Roman Regio X
    (Venetia et Histria) (Fig. 1). Pliny the Elder (N. H.
    3.139), who also deals with these issues, writes:
    Arsiae gens Liburnorum iungitur usquem ad flu-
    men Titium. Pars eius fuere Mentores, Himani,
    Encheleae, Bulini et quos Callimachus [fr. 107
    Pfeiffer] Peucetios appellat, nunc totum uno nom-
    ine Illyricum vocatur generatim. “The Liburnian
    people stretch from Arsia to the river Titius. It once
    included the Mentores, Himani, Encheleae, Bulini
    and those known to Callimachus as Peucetii; at
    present these are all called only with the name of
    Illyricum”.




    praeterea multorum Graeciae
    oppidorum deficiens memoria nec non et civitatium
    validarum: eo namque tractu fuere Labeatae,
    Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei; proprieque dicti
    Illyri et Taulanti et Pyreaei retinent nomen19 (“...
    and also the memory of many a town founded by
    the Greeks is fading away as well as that of a lot
    of powerful cities: in this region were situated the
    Labeatae, Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei, while
    the Illyrians properly called so, the Taulantii and
    the Pyraei, retain their names”). Pliny is referring
    to the regions situated to the north of Epirus, in
    present-day Albania and Montenegro.
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Herodotus stated that the thracians are the second biggest race in numbers after the indians
    The Thracians are the biggest nation in the world, next to the Indians; were they under one ruler, or united, they would in my judgment be invincible and the strongest nation on earth; but since there is no way or contrivance to bring this about, they are for this reason weak. They have many names, each tribe according to its region. All these Thracians are alike in all their usages, save the Getae, and the Trausi, and those that dwell above the Crestonaeans.
    known in Roman times as Illyricum: it covered a
    vast territory from the Adriatic to Pannonia and
    from Moesia to Noricum and the Roman Regio X
    (Venetia et Histria) (Fig. 1). Pliny the Elder (N. H.
    3.139), who also deals with these issues, writes:
    Arsiae gens Liburnorum iungitur usquem ad flu-
    men Titium. Pars eius fuere Mentores, Himani,
    Encheleae, Bulini et quos Callimachus [fr. 107
    Pfeiffer] Peucetios appellat, nunc totum uno nom-
    ine Illyricum vocatur generatim. “The Liburnian
    people stretch from Arsia to the river Titius. It once
    included the Mentores, Himani, Encheleae, Bulini
    and those known to Callimachus as Peucetii; at
    present these are all called only with the name of
    Illyricum”.

    praeterea multorum Graeciae
    oppidorum deficiens memoria nec non et civitatium
    validarum: eo namque tractu fuere Labeatae,
    Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei; proprieque dicti
    Illyri et Taulanti et Pyreaei retinent nomen19 (“...
    and also the memory of many a town founded by
    the Greeks is fading away as well as that of a lot
    of powerful cities: in this region were situated the
    Labeatae, Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei, while
    the Illyrians properly called so, the Taulantii and
    the Pyraei, retain their names”). Pliny is referring
    to the regions situated to the north of Epirus, in
    present-day Albania and Montenegro.
    Thycidides (or someone else, perhaps i am mistaking the author, INS) stated that Celts were the biggest nation in Europe which IMO makes sense since they occupied literally most of Central and Western Europe and even attempted to invade Eastern Europe and Southern Europe, after Celts he lists Thracians as second biggest group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    My mistake, the 2 Himeran samples are in the reddest surface of your plot, and on ph2er map they plot just more inland Western Balkans. So, i assumed you are talking about them. I noted in the beginning where they approximately should plot, ph2ter map plot is not far from what i assumed.
    Did not notice that. That's quite neat. I expect many more such V13 samples to show up, that have high proximity to modern Albos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Did not notice that. That's quite neat. I expect many more such V13 samples to show up, that have high proximity to modern Albos.
    Here, zoomed...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Thycidides (or someone else, perhaps i am mistaking the author, INS) stated that Celts were the biggest nation in Europe which IMO makes sense since they occupied literally most of Central and Western Europe and even attempted to invade Eastern Europe and Southern Europe, after Celts he lists Thracians as second biggest group.

    I think it was someone in Eupedia that stated the celts made up 60% of Europe ................I have not seen it anywhere else.

    unless they refer to the ancient mix from 2400BC ...a mix of Italic-Illyric-Celtic people.....that began around hungaria, east-austria and czechia

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I think it was someone in Eupedia that stated the celts made up 60% of Europe ................I have not seen it anywhere else.

    unless they refer to the ancient mix from 2400BC ...a mix of Italic-Illyric-Celtic people.....that began around hungaria, east-austria and czechia
    I am pretty sure a Greek writer (perhaps Thucydides but i don't insist) from classical time wrote that the Celts were largest group in Europe, it makes sense considering their geographic spread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I think we have gone through it several times, the actual paper states that those two E-V13 Himerans are between Balkans (IMO, Illyrian-like but slightly leaning toward Thracians) and Central European (slightly leaning more toward Western Europe considering some western countries are listed on their assumption). If that doesn't scream Pannonian-Illyrian-like, i don't know what else. One E-V13 was fully Caucasus-like, that's weird, but considering that some Stamped Pottery people and their related cousins Gava expanded to Ukrainian steppe during Late Bronze Age, not only more south in Balkans, i consider he was a leftover of them.

    But, that's beyond the point, that the majority of Thracians were E-V13 carriers is almost universally accepted, and Thracians along with Celts were the biggest ethnicities in Iron Age Europe.
    Indeed. A little more reading the actual paper and a little less of that "touché" saying a lot without actually saying anything helps understand what the data is showing.

    I don’t agree with your conclusion though. The wording „Pannonian-Illyrian“, in the sense that one could equate them, is really something which I don’t see aDNA records supporting at all. Pannonia received such a high TC culture influx and that in itself forms the fundament of the people of it. Other more minor components were from the Illyrian sphere and the general non-Illyrian Carpatho-Balkan complex although the latter was more significant from what aDNA suggests thus far.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I think you read another subtext from what I was going for. Was not really thinking of the Himerans when I posted that, and even V13 was not the punchline.

    The punchline is that Lazaridis is a G, and the map speaks for itself, backing him up.

    I don't bother replying to clowns like Paleobrain anymore, or to other clowns trying to claim Thraco-Daco-Moeso-Besi assimilated Illyrians into the Albanian culture.

    So the question is, if there is Y and autosomal continuity, with what perversion of truth can one side with the clowns?
    What, that Modern Albanians descend from solely one population from the Bronze Age and haven’t changed since then? There is nothing that supports that claim.

    As for linguistic debates: everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Freedom of speech is a thing.

    Besides, I have seen a number of different suggestions here, which is great since plurality of opinions is fundamental for a good discussion. When it comes to the origin of Albanian I for instance am more on the Bërnica (Brnjica in literature) culture MBA Central Balkan camp.

    I don’t see anyone here as Hawk already mentioned trying to „monopolize“ a personal suggestion. Disagreeing on matters is one thing but going completely mad about it and using ad hominems is another. No one has the power over what might turn out to be the truth.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Indeed. A little more reading the actual paper and a little less of that "touché" saying a lot without actually saying anything helps understand what the data is showing.

    I don’t agree with your conclusion though. The wording „Pannonian-Illyrian“, in the sense that one could equate them, is really something which I don’t see aDNA records supporting at all. Pannonia received such a high TC culture influx and that in itself forms the fundament of the people of it. Other more minor components were from the Illyrian sphere and the general non-Illyrian Carpatho-Balkan complex although the latter was more significant from what aDNA suggests thus far.

    I don't agree or disagree with you on this, Pannonian-Illyrians are a bit problematic issue, perhaps some authors knew what they were writing in that not all Illyrians defined might be a single cultural entity, perhaps Pannonians and Illyrians due to close proximity had close relationships and don't have the same ancestry. IDK. As per that they have Urnfield influence, yes, they resided in the territory which was the heaviest Urnfield epicenter during LBA to EIA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I don't agree or disagree with you on this, Pannonian-Illyrians are a bit problematic issue, perhaps some authors knew what they were writing in that not all Illyrians defined might be a single cultural entity, perhaps Pannonians and Illyrians due to close proximity had close relationships and don't have the same ancestry. IDK. As per that they have Urnfield influence, yes, they resided in the territory which was the heaviest Urnfield epicenter during LBA to EIA.

    people get confused.................phase one halstatt..celts enter noricum ( east austria ) and mix with illyrians.......later these celtic-illyrian moved in the pannonian direction ...........this is what people refer to as pannonian-illyrian .

    we all know , the celts did not stop heading in that direction until they hit the black sea

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    pannonian-illyrian mixed with dacians firstly

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Indeed. A little more reading the actual paper and a little less of that "touché" saying a lot without actually saying anything helps understand what the data is showing.

    I don’t agree with your conclusion though. The wording „Pannonian-Illyrian“, in the sense that one could equate them, is really something which I don’t see aDNA records supporting at all. Pannonia received such a high TC culture influx and that in itself forms the fundament of the people of it. Other more minor components were from the Illyrian sphere and the general non-Illyrian Carpatho-Balkan complex although the latter was more significant from what aDNA suggests thus far.

    Which aDNA are you referring to? The Slavonian samples from Roman era only show some Celtic mixture, other than that there is no noticeable alien aDNA profile, they appear as ancient authors described them, Celto-illyrians. The area is under sampled, but the population that lived there during early Roman rule is the final and relevant layer when trying to model Albanians to these people. J2b-L283 is also strong in this zone, I see these people as inland Illyrians. Reading Riverman's posts, the E-V13 block suffered a two pincer strikes, Scytho-Cimmerian from the east and Celtic from the west. The Ilyrians must have taken advantage of this weakness/situation and pushed E-V13 back.



    BTW Phiter's map is fantasy based, I10950 should be north-east of Nassius, the strong Cimmerian MJ12 component and noticeable Baltic BA mixture is a dead give away geographical signal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    BTW Phiter's map is fantasy based, I10950 should be north-east of Nassius, the strong Cimmerian MJ12 component and noticeable Baltic BA mixture is a dead give away geographical signal.
    Ph2ter's map is fine.

    MJ12 isn't a Cimmerian. It's clear that this person's ancestry is somewhere from the western/central Balkans.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Ph2ter's map is fine.

    MJ12 isn't a Cimmerian. It's clear that this person's ancestry is somewhere from the western/central Balkans.

    MJ12 is Babadag culture. Others can chime in about it's material origin, but this individual and culture was on the Danube Delta. It has absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians, no where near it. And what else to say about the desperate attempts, constantly wanting to appropriate/steal alien aDNA and falsely assign it as a western block. Even to equate the two clear distinguished blocks(western and central) as one and the same is false statement on it's own.

    There is no evidence MJ12 is from the central block. There is strong evidence that they are related to the central block. I don't know the details if the connection is direct, both groups originating in southern Serbia and splitting up or simply two Yamnaya derivatives surviving in their own enclaves with no contact with one another.

    But here, I am going to show you a comparison beyond 5th grade level PCA plots.




    Not only is MJ12 Yamnaya, making it radically different from Illyrians, she also lacks any WHG component too, zero. Phiter's map remains fantasy, he should do some detective work before assigning mercenaries geographical origins.

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    I am not sure why people don’t really seem to get the idea behind population modeling. Just because someone plots a certain way on a PCA it doesn’t have to equal actual ancestry. It is not even intended to do so, but of course can in very few clear cut contexts.

    As for all of the repetitive noise in regards to E1b samples (e. g. Naissus, Himera): they don’t plot „exactly like an Illyrian group“, period.

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    Fake it till you make it... Something which came to my mind when reading your Convo, Paleo, with Bruzmi on the other forum. His initial reaction when the avalanche of Illyrian samples was just getting started with Patterson/Reich, imagine putting Medieval samples in a "supposed PCA" with multiple actual Bronze and Iron Age samples to conclude "correlation". The quality of this guy's mantra does show with these posts more. Perhaps his private messaging real self will come out in future posts? Doubtful since he really is trying to hide it as much as he can:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi
    I have added all J2b and E-V13 aDNA samples in one PCA
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi
    The overlap is obvious in the Balkans. I can't see how "Illyrian-like" groups which didn't have both J2b-L283 and E-V13 can have existed.


    Do I need to say more? If the word bizarre needs some prime example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi
    Homogeneity is an autosomal feature. It's not about haplogroup < patrilineal descent. Haplogroups are not population groups and they don't carry any culture. This also tells us that we need to abandon this weird male-centric fetishization which treats haplogroups as if they were self-standing entities which reproduced by themselves.

    J-L283 has this profile because they intermarried (took & gave wives and husbands) from other clans which were non-J-L283. In my opinion, this is what created this very similar autosomal profile for many of the J-L283 and also E-V13 samples which have been found.
    Setting aside those "cannot be Illyrians as they are from the fringes of Illyria" comments.





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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I am not sure why people don’t really seem to get the idea behind population modeling. Just because someone plots a certain way on a PCA it doesn’t have to equal actual ancestry. It is not even intended to do so, but of course can in very few clear cut contexts.

    As for all of the repetitive noise in regards to E1b samples (e. g. Naissus, Himera): they don’t plot „exactly like an Illyrian group“, period.
    They (Brumi, Exine, etc...) are possessive about certain samples, if the PCA shows them near Illyrians, they start behaving as if these samples belong to them. Zero analytical approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Fake it till you make it... Something which came to my mind when reading your Convo, Paleo, with Bruzmi on the other forum. His initial reaction when the avalanche of Illyrian samples was just getting started with Patterson/Reich, imagine putting Medieval samples in a "supposed PCA" with multiple actual Bronze and Iron Age samples to conclude "correlation". The quality of this guy's mantra does show with these posts more. Perhaps his private messaging real self will come out in future posts? Doubtful since he really is trying to hide it as much as he can:


    Do I need to say more? If the word bizarre needs some prime example:



    Setting aside those "cannot be Illyrians as they are from the fringes of Illyria" comments.
    Even if my model was incorrect, the Himera's E-V13 should be picking the same components as the Illyrian samples if they are the same. The fact they they pick different options on the menu is clear cut proof they are not the same.


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    Country: Algeria



    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Even if my model was incorrect, the Himera's E-V13 should be picking the same components as the Illyrian samples if they are the same. The fact they they pick different options on the menu is clear cut proof they are not the same.

    Im starting to think that E1b came from egyptian migrants and colonists after J-L283.

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