Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[PaleoRevenge]

Because E-V13 is not Illyrian, than there is a evil plot to make them Africans? Wanderer until some months back you were all cursing Riverman for suggesting E-V13 comes Daco-Thracian zone, not only that, but your camp were proponents that E-V13 was some loser haplogroup being big brothered by various IE groups, smacked around, eating left overs like some gypsy class in any given society.

It turns out E-V13 has its own successful story. Now you are on a mission to baptize any E-V13 that lacks south Thracian profile as some Illyrian variant. I won't object if that's the case, but the Himera's E-V13 are not Illyrians.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post662431

[Wanderer]

Because E-V13 is not Illyrian, than there is a evil plot to make them Africans? Wanderer until some months back you were all cursing Riverman for suggesting E-V13 comes Daco-Thracian zone, not only that, but your camp were proponents that E-V13 was some loser haplogroup being big brothered by various IE groups, smacked around, eating left overs like some gypsy class in any given society.

It turns out E-V13 has its own successful story. Now you are on a mission to baptize any E-V13 that lacks south Thracian profile as some Illyrian variant. I won't object if that's the case, but the Himera's E-V13 are not Illyrians.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post662431

Ev13 is common in north africa. And map shows migrations out of africa in the middle east and europe.
Egypt colonized parts of the middle east before, and egyptians have migrated to greece, sicilly and the medditeranean in ancient times. Its not even evil, theres dna evidence of it and ancient sources showing that greeks recieved migration from north africa anatolia and the middle east.
And they would migrate into roman provinces. I don't even know you characterized it as evil unless you think its evil to be mixed race or that middle easterners and north africans are inherently evil just because.
Theres alot of cool ancient history from the middle east and egyptians. I dont know why its even a bad thing necessarily.
J-L283 really is european but I think from the medditerenean and agean and balkans. Some people want to attribute from yanmaya.
When you can find ancient ev13 close to 2000BC - 3000BC then I might believe it came from indo european migration into europe. But it really looks like it came from egyptians.

[mount123]

Im starting to think that E1b came from egyptian migrants and colonists after J-L283.

Perhaps you're confusing the nomenclatures. When people say E1b in this thread they mean E1b-V13 which has absolutely nothing to do with "Egyptians". As for its history or other Paleo-Carpatho-Balkan lineages there is more than enough sources you might want to read about.

[Hawk]

Ev13 is common in north africa. And map shows migrations out of africa in the middle east and europe.
Egypt colonized parts of the middle east before, and egyptians have migrated to greece, sicilly and the medditeranean in ancient times. Its not even evil, theres dna evidence of it and ancient sources showing that greeks recieved migration from north africa anatolia and the middle east.
And they would migrate into roman provinces. I don't even know you characterized it as evil unless you think its evil to be mixed race or that middle easterners and north africans are inherently evil just because.
Theres alot of cool ancient history from the middle east and egyptians. I dont know why its even a bad thing necessarily.
J-L283 really is european but I think from the medditerenean and agean and balkans. Some people want to attribute from yanmaya.
When you can find ancient ev13 close to 2000BC - 3000BC then I might believe it came from indo european migration into europe. But it really looks like it came from egyptians.

E-V13 is very uncommon in Northern Africa, and whatever there is it looks like it is mainly from Byzantine Empire period, some Byzantine garrisons.

But, yeah, ultimately during Paleolithic-Mesolithic the ancestor of E-V13 was an inhabitants of one of Mesolithic Egyptian Cultures. Along the Nile river likely. But, that's approximately more than 12k years.

[Wanderer]

Perhaps you're confusing the nomenclatures. When people say E1b in this thread they mean E1b-V13 which has absolutely nothing to do with "Egyptians". As for its history or other Paleo-Carpatho-Balkan lineages there is more than enough sources you might want to read about.

Is there a map and list of ancient E1b-v13 samples? Like how they have for J-L283?

[mount123]

It turns out E-V13 has its own successful story. Now you are on a mission to baptize any E-V13 that lacks south Thracian profile as some Illyrian variant. I won't object if that's the case, but the Himera's E-V13 are not Illyrians.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post662431

Indeed. Some intuitions and guesses on Thracians based on actual archeological foreknowlegde have been very spot on. Thinking of Riverman, Hawk etc. Which leads me to this: I would generally advice to trust leaks from international individuals as there was some fake news spread in the past by some people. I am talking about the supposedly rich Z2103, "G2a" and "J2a" Thracians that never actually existed. An Israeli friend of mine has thankfully told me at the time that they are all but one E1b-V13 which was also in line with the screenshot of a lecture about EIA Kapitan Andreevo. Not really what some guy here posting on this thread lied to me about (name starts with the letter A, who got the info from the supposedly insider Bruzmi who's allegedly in the, how he called it, "know group" lol). Not cool.

[Wanderer]

Indeed. Some intuitions and guesses on Thracians based on actual archeological foreknowlegde have been very spot on. Thinking of Riverman, Hawk etc. Which leads me to this: I would generally advice to trust leaks from international individuals as there was some fake news spread in the past by some people. I am talking about the supposedly rich Z2103, "G2a" and "J2a" Thracians that never actually existed. An Israeli friend of mine has thankfully told me at the time that they are all but one E1b-V13 which was also in line with the screenshot of a lecture about EIA Kapitan Andreevo. Not really what some guy here posting on this thread lied to me about (name starts with the letter A, who got the info from the supposedly insider Bruzmi who's allegedly in the, how he called it, "know group" lol). Not cool.

Ok looking at this i see two clearly labeled Ev 13. Are other ones here E-v13?
I only see 2 and one of them doesnt have yamnaya admixture.
They only have overlapping uralic, GEO_CHG and western serbian Iron Gates scores and its at very low levels.
I am not sure what GEO is is.

[PaleoRevenge]

Ok looking at this i see two clearly labeled Ev 13. Are other ones here E-v13?
I only see 2 and one of them doesnt have yamnaya admixture.
They only have overlapping uralic, GEO_CHG and western serbian Iron Gates scores and its at very low levels.
I am not sure what GEO is is.

GEO is Georgia, CHG is Caucacus Hunter Gatherer. E-V13 block is not Yamnaya derived, some individuals show Yamnaya because they absorbed high amount of aDNA from the R1b-Z2103 block, by expanding on their territory.

[PaleoRevenge]

Indeed. Some intuitions and guesses on Thracians based on actual archeological foreknowlegde have been very spot on. Thinking of Riverman, Hawk etc. Which leads me to this: I would generally advice to trust leaks from international individuals as there was some fake news spread in the past by some people. I am talking about the supposedly rich Z2103, "G2a" and "J2a" Thracians that never actually existed. An Israeli friend of mine has thankfully told me at the time that they are all but one E1b-V13 which was also in line with the screenshot of a lecture about EIA Kapitan Andreevo. Not really what some guy here posting on this thread lied to me about (name starts with the letter A, who got the info from the supposedly insider Bruzmi who's allegedly in the, how he called it, "know group" lol). Not cool.

I'm pretty sure Brumi is in the know. He smugly wrote that there will not be any papers coming from Bulgaria, Kosovo, Romania, Bosnia for at least two years, so the E-V13 mystery and his bs will carry on. He chose to lie to his followers and they respect him for it.

However, he omitted Serbia when he bragged on how long we'll have to wait. Any samples coming out of from Serbia will be quite valuable and damning, and we will likely see them next year.

[epirus1000]

Anyone read this:

Romance in Contact with Albanian
Walter Breu

• https://doi.org/10.1093/acrefore/9780199384655.013.421
• Published online: 19 October 2022

[torzio]

as I said many times....until someone clears up what the dacians spoke before taking the Latin route ( that is changing to a latin syntax ), one cannot make a call on Albanian ...............there seems to be a link of albanian with pre-latin based Dacian language

[Excine]

Not really what some guy here posting on this thread lied to me about (name starts with the letter A, who got the info from the supposedly insider Bruzmi who's allegedly in the, how he called it, "know group" lol). Not cool.

He said that Proto-Thracians weren't E-V13 based on BA samples and guess what? They weren't and nobody thinks what only a small fringe group propagated on internet fora supports.

Proto-Thracians were in Thrace in the Bronze Age:

The discoveries of massive migrations from the steppe both westward into Central and Western Europe (4, 8), and eastward into South Siberia (4) and Central/South Asia (34), have provided powerful evidence for the theory of steppe Indo-European origins by linking populations all the way from Northwest Europe (36) to India and China through common steppe ancestry. The present study adds further support to the theory by the discovery of ubiquitous ancestry from the steppe in the Bronze Age Balkans [where, indubitably, Indo-European, Paleo-Balkan languages such as Thracian and Illyrian (41) were spoken], including individuals of predominantly steppe ancestry; (...) (Lazaridis, Southern Arc, Papers)

Matzinger considers them to have moved there in 2600-2500 BC:



When Bruzmi was saying that Cetina will be J-L283 long before the publication of the Southern Arc, you were supporting Riverman and the rest of that group who really didn't want Cetina to be J-L283 and now you're pretending here that you always supported Cetina to be J-L283.

[Excine]

The oldest contacts between Latin and Proto-Albanian go back to the 2nd century BCE, after the victory of the Romans against the Illyrian king Genthios in 168 BCE, or even the 3rd century BCE, when the Romans first invaded the Illyrian coast in 229 BCE...

Along with now-extinct Dalmatian, Romanian is a possible candidate for Balkan-Latin sources of Albanian borrowings... As for their languages, Mihăescu unlike, for example Çabej sought to reduce common lexical characteristics of Albanian with Romanian. He maintained among other things that Latin reflexes are older in Albanian than in Romanian, for example, faqe 'face' < Lat. facies; Romanian has the younger form faţă < Lat. facia...

In view of the absence of historical documents, the discussion on these questions largely depends on the characteristics of the (reconstructed) languages, which in the case of Albanian even concerns the central question of their Illyrian or Thracian heritage. In addition to some terms going back to a common Balkan or even Mediterranean substrate... the main question is, whether Albanian borrowings from non-classical Latin can be derived from Proto-Romanian (or eastern Balkan Latin) or whether Albanian has common characteristics only with Dalmatian (western Balkan Latin). In any case, possible contacts with Romanians do not concern the oldest layer of Latin influences on Albanian, as they go back to times when only the coast was Romanized and not the central Balkan areas. What is more, Albanian has preserved Latin characteristics that did not survive in any Romance language, that is, from before the regionalization of Latin, or at least may be found elsewhere only in very conservative varieties; see, for example, the preservation of Latin k, g before front vowels Albanian has in common with Sardinian varieties, the conservation of the neuter in Latin borrowings or archaic Latin lexemes like ōs 'mouth' > Alb. vesh 'ear', vetus, veteris > Alb. i vjetër 'old', where Romance languages, including Romanian, show only derivations...

Mihăescu differentiated four categories of common terms of Albanian with Romanian, which in a way contrary to Çabej's opinion also reflects different chronological stages:

1) Latin words of extended circulation, preserved not only in Albanian and Romanian, but also in western Romance languages (including Italian). This is the largest group in Mihăescu's corpus, containing 270 items like altare '(sacrificial) altar' > Alb. Lter, Ro. altar; arena > Alb. rërë (Geg rênë), Ro. arină; aurum > Alb. ar, Ro. aur.

2) Latin words, common to Albanian and western Romance languages (partially also to Dalmatian), but not found in Romanian. Mihăescu counted 151 elements in this groups, for example, amicus 'friend' > Alb. mik; causa 'thing' > Alb. kafshë 'animal, thing'; fides 'belief' > Alb. fe; servire 'to serve' > Alb. shërbenj.

3) Latin words found only in Romanian and Albanian. Mihăescu's corpus contains 39 of them, of which 19 are terms of wider circulation in these languages, like canticum 'song' > Alb. këngë, Ro. cîntec; sessus ‘plain’ > Alb. shesh, Ro. şes. Twelve of them are uncertain because of formal or semantic inconsistencies, for example, hospitium, *hostip(it)ium > Alb. shtëpi 'house', Ro. ospăţ ‘banquet’; dirigere > Alb. dërgonj ‘to send’, Ro. drege ‘to make’. The rest of them consist of local Hellenisms like spodium (> Grk. σπούδιον) > Alb. shpuz ‘embers’, Ro. spuză.

4) Latin loans preserved only in Albanian. In Mihăescu's opinion, the 85 items he counted are especially useful for knowledge of Latin and help determine the territory and the date of the influence of the Roman culture on the ancestors of the Albanians. In referring to Jokl, he remarked that the basic agricultural terminology of the ancient Albanians is clearly Latin, for example, apparamentum 'provision' > parmendë 'plough', *hibernium (cf.. hibernus 'wintery') > vërri 'winter pasture'. Flora and fauna terms in this group according to Mihăescu are mainly Mediterranean or refer at least to humid territories, as, for example, olivaster > ullashtër 'wild olive-tree', catta > gatë 'heron'. Additional information comes from religious terms, which, being partially pre-Christian, turned into Christian ones and followed without interruption the western (Roman) Church, while the ancestors of the Romanians oriented themselves by the Byzantine model, for example, Lat. Saturni dies > Alb. e shtunë 'Saturday' (≠ Ro. sâmbătă), Lat. Christi natale > kërshëndella ‘Christmas’ (≠ Ro. Crăciun, etymology unclear).

In his final summary, Mihăescu listed words from several parts of speech showing that Albanian borrowed from Classical Latin, whereas the corresponding Romanian terms go back to Vulgar Latin. Among the Albanian borrowings he cited alterare > ndërronj ‘to change’, gaudimentum > gazmend ‘joy’, caltha ‘marigold, violet’ > i, e kaltër ‘blue’, ingratus > i, e ngratë ‘pitiable’, showing according to the author that it would be a fallacy to suppose that the Latin elements of Romanian and Albanian have a common “Balkan Latin” source. In his opinion, Roman influence spread on the Balkans along different tracks.

[Excine]

As for consonant clusters the most important case is the integration of ancient Latin borrowings with ct [kt], which had three different results in Albanian, ft, jt, t, without any clear conditions for the individual developments (Çabej, 1976, p. 54). So, Albanian has ft (< pt) contrary to Romanian (and Dalmatian) pt and assimilated tt in Italian, for example, in luftë ‘war’ ← Lat. lucta, versus Ro. luptă, It. lotta. However, it has jt ← ct as in Alb. drejt ‘straight, right’ ← Lat. directu‑, versus Ro. drept, It. dritto, contrary to later integrations like t ← ct in Alb. fryt (≠ frujt in older times) ‘fruit’ ← Lat. fructu-, versus Ro. frupt, It. frutto. The Latin cluster ks (x) did not have uniform results either, resulting, for example, in Alb. kofshë ‘thigh’ ← Lat. coxa, versus Ro. coapsă, It. coscia, but Alb. frashër ‘ash’ ← Lat. fraxinu-, versus Ro. frasin, It. frassino.

When Proto-Albanian borrowed words with originally velar consonants from classical Latin, they still had kept their pronunciation before front vowels, contrary to their palatalization in most modern Romance languages, with the exception of Sardinian. Only afterward did an internal palatalization before front vowels occur in Albanian, both in inherited words and in loanwords: k, g > kʲ, gʲ / V[-back]. Well-known examples in modern Albanian, going back to this sound change, are Lat. caelum ‘sky’ → Alb. qiell, centum ‘100’ → qind. It is a problem for historical linguistics that the same happened to be the case in southern Balkan-Romance varieties (Dalmatian, Liburnian).10 As a consequence, it often remains unclear if Albanian in such cases borrowed directly from Latin before the corresponding internal change, for example, Italian k, g > [tʃ], [dʒ] /V[–back], or only afterward from one of its Balkan vernaculars, differing in this respect from western Romance. Latin borrowings of the older layer have preserved a very conservative form of Latin, often found in Albanian alone, sometimes accompanied by peripheral Romance varieties like Sardinian, Romanian, or other forms of Balkan Romance.

Excerpts from Breu's paper. Albanian has nothing to do with Dacian or any language which spoken in the eastern Balkans or even the more eastern part of the central Balkans.

[torzio]

Excerpts from Breu's paper. Albanian has nothing to do with Dacian or any language which spoken in the eastern Balkans or even the more eastern part of the central Balkans.

nothing to do with the Latin based Dacian language is what he states................he says nothing about the pre-Latin Dacian language

[mount123]

When Bruzmi was saying that Cetina will be J-L283 long before the publication of the Southern Arc, you were supporting Riverman and the rest of that group who really didn't want Cetina to be J-L283 and now you're pretending here that you always supported Cetina to be J-L283.

That is not true at all. J2b-L283 thread page 11 from the other forum:

I agree with your conclusion re: Tumulus Culture. I had looked at this Tumulus Culture for some time, but since they had never found any ancient L283 amongst the Unetice, who preceded the TC, I had concluded that L283 was unlikely to be linked to original TC lineages.

Trojet has mentioned the Cetina Culture. I think the focus might be on Cetina and Posusje Cultures from here on out, with possible distant ties to Alpine Bell Beakers further down the road.

Question: Are you able to run this graph for J2b L283 alongside R1b L23/L51? I’m wanting to compare each at the 3500 BC to 4000 BC mark. Since L283 has a TMRCA of 5500 ybp, I’m assuming L283 can’t be extended any further to the left?

As of right know there is no DNA to back this TC hypotheses up and it seems quite unlikely in my opinion. Edit: I misunderstood your response. I too think J2b-L283 cannot be linked to TC culture.

Agreed. I think when the ancient L283 Z38240 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/ kid was discovered in Veliki Vanik years ago underneath a tumulus, it looked like a possible link to the Tumulus Culture. However, the best explanations that I’ve seen so far tie his burial to this Posusje Culture. Posusje, Cetina, and Ljubljana Cultures are high on my list.

Mine too.

I have joined this and the other forum at the end of 2021. My guesses have always been around Cetina, Dinaric and also to a lesser extent Ljubljana Culture. The first archaeogenetic attestation we got was around Dinaric culture sites but with the abundance of newer samples it was proven that it is nothing than just a late phase of Cetina.

[mount123]

He said that Proto-Thracians weren't E-V13 based on BA samples and guess what? They weren't and nobody thinks what only a small fringe group propagated on internet fora supports.

Interesting that you used a map of linguist Matzinger's suggestions.
Yes. Bruzmi did claim that they were what they weren't. He talked about Iron Age samples and Archetype did too claim to know of batches that supposedly had 0% E1b.

...I am not talking about Bronze but Iron Age samples.

I don't really care about Iron Age Thracians as they are not relevant to my patrilineage. There was the need for the personlization of certain topics by some people and I wanted to set clear that I wasn't in the wrong when pointing out "fake news" and what a friend of mine who indeed has a scientific background and did know about the samples in question told me about.

[Excine]

That is not true at all. J2b-L283 thread page 11 from the other forum:







I have joined this and the other forum at the end of 2021. My guesses have always been around Cetina, Dinaric and also to a lesser extent Ljubljana Culture. The first archaeogenetic attestation we got was around Dinaric culture sites but with the abundance of newer samples it was proven that it is nothing than just a late phase of Cetina.

On the other forum you always supported what Riverman and co. said which is that "Posusje" might J-L283 but Cetina isn't. Don't make me get all your comments and "likes" towards Riverman. When Trojet came forward and said the same thing as Bruzmi (Trojet had actually said the same thing a few years earlier), you stopped commenting, but let's review one of your earlier posts:


https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post854952 once more you get an explanation (before the SA publication) that there's just 1 J-L283 sample from MBA Albania and this is evidence for Cetina Proto-Illyrians before Glasinac-Mati in Albania.

You knew that there is just one sample because another user told you and he learned about it from Bruzmi. So what did you do with this information? You straight up lied that there are "more Bronze Age J-L283 samples from multiple sites in Albania" and that someone is hiding this information. You did so in order to throw mud against the people who gave you the information (pa pike burrnie) Therefore you can stay here, have a chat with Paleo-Revenge (lol) and wait for those who do serious work to post results on the other forum.

For Thracians, keep taking comments out of context to make fake points, you're doing great. The point is that Proto-Thracians weren't E-V13 which is what was claimed by the entire group that you support.

PS It's really funny how about the J-L283 in Peloponnese you just went on anthrogenica and basically copy/pasted Bruzmi's response here. Thank you for spreading around the work of people who aren't on eupedia. Good job!

[mount123]

I am not taking anything out of context. You claimed Bruzmi made comments solely on Bronze Age Bulgarian samples but from his posts it is evident that that is not the case and he explicitly more than once talks about how IA Bulgarian samples will be what he claimed them to be. That is the definition of lying.

This is the initial bizarre reaction of Wikipedia's Maleschreiber when Patterson/Reich et. al. 2021 was published. Imagine posting this on an anthroforum about a paternal lineage the irony and disrespect :

Homogeneity is an autosomal feature. It's not about haplogroup < patrilineal descent. Haplogroups are not population groups and they don't carry any culture. This also tells us that we need to abandon this weird male-centric fetishization which treats haplogroups as if they were self-standing entities which reproduced by themselves.

J-L283 has this profile because they intermarried (took & gave wives and husbands) from other clans which were non-J-L283. In my opinion, this is what created this very similar autosomal profile for many of the J-L283 and also E-V13 samples which have been found.

[mount123]

On the other forum you always supported what Riverman and co. said which is that "Posusje" might J-L283 but Cetina isn't. Don't make me get all your comments and "likes" towards Riverman. When Trojet came forward and said the same thing as Bruzmi (Trojet had actually said the same thing a few years earlier)

I have proven above that Cetina, Dinaric and Ljubljana were my initial guesses and that the initial archaeogenetic attestation was around Dinaric sites which was indeed the case at the time. What you are writing is repetitive.

As for Mygdalia, I shared a post which user Peloponnesian initially posted first and foremost. I shared links to papers which over the time I have asked in the J2b-L283 thread my fellow members about. Links to certain papers which have been shared by Trojet, Polska etc. I have openely asked about it as I was eager to learn more about EBA-MBA Cetina (and its late phase MBA Dinaric) culture and did want to go through useful sources. That is what you do when you want to learn about something and what better place to ask such questions than in an anthroforum.

PS It's really funny how about the J-L283 in Peloponnese you just went on anthrogenica and basically copy/pasted Bruzmi's response here. Thank you for spreading around the work of people who aren't on eupedia. Good job!

These papers aren't the work of Wikipedia's Maleschreiber/Bruzmi they are the work of archeologists. That internet enthusiast doesn't own the rights to these papers. This is comedic.

[mount123]

As for sharing rumors: Why doesn't Archetype tell you about the J2b-L283 rumor among Myceneans that I told him about?

My reply to him via email June 6th 2022:

"Interesting I am not sure what you exactly mean here. But let me get this straight I would actually expect J2b-L283 in Macedonia too, to say the least. This would not be surprising to me especially the time frame. Illyrians or Proto-Illyrians penetrating further into the Southern Central Balkans and even Eastern Balkans is an attested historical fact. Might want to make Bardylis responsible for this. Also at some point they also mixed with other groups of people or what do you think how us Albanians popped out of the oven.

Wasn't there even the leaked or low coverage Mycenean J2b-L283, remember that?"

Of course the reason is not Bardylis but EBA-MBA Cetina (its late phase MBA Dinaric) and later on IA movements.

I knew about this rumor from a fellow Hungarian J2b-L283 member over at facebook (there is a very good chance that it isn't just Mygdalia ). Does this mean my life depends on wether people share this rumor or not? Do I have the ownership over a leak? It is beneficial sharing such stuff on a patrilineage thread.

[Excine]

I am not taking anything out of context. You claimed Bruzmi made comments solely on Bronze Age Bulgarian samples but from his posts it is evident that that is not the case and he explicitly more than once talks about how IA Bulgarian samples will be what he claimed them to be. That is the definition of lying.

This is the initial bizarre reaction of Wikipedia's Maleschreiber when Patterson/Reich et. al. 2021 was published. Imagine posting this on an anthroforum about a paternal lineage the irony and disrespect :

OK, so as usual you have nothing to reply even about your own posts about the "multiple sites". Good job.

The only irony here is that you think by showing such a post you're "discrediting" anyone. You're making them a favour by re-posting good arguments.

This is exactly how ethnic groups are created. Haplogroups aren't ethnic groups and while in your head you might think that you descend from J-L283, the ratio of haplogroups of your ancestors is exactly the same as the average Albanian who might be E-V13 or R-Z2103 or J-L283 or R-L1029 or J1-FGC12816. You have roughly the same number of J-L283 ancestors as any other Albanian regardless of their haplogroup. You don't descend "just" from your haplogroup. In fact, you mostly don't descend from your haplogroup. It really is just your exact patrilineal ancestry and if the only thing you had in common with Illyrians was the fact that you personally carry J-L283 then you would have fewer Illyrian ancestors than an Albanian who doesn't carry J-L283. It might be shocking to someone like you, but it's the reality.

Guess what this ratio of ancestors creates over a long period? An autosomal profile which is the signal of an ethnic group, which itself is much more than autosomal profiles. It's a cultural and social union.

So yeahhh, Cetina J-L283 males have this autosomal profile because of intermarriage with other groups who carried other haplogroups and over time the common Illyrian autosomal cline was created from north to south.

[mount123]

This is just repetitive. I addressed all falsehoods you made about me in my replies to you.

auDNA is what makes up the entire ancestry and that is quite clear, obviously, and I never claimed otherwise. Though uniparentals are essential in tracing our ancestral origin, that is a fact. Albanians are more or less the same autosomally. Some might be a bit more there some a tiny bit more here on a PCA. This was something which I did not even talk about.

There is no statistical basis for the stuff you write and I am not going to comment on it. Besides I, by solely coincidence, am also on my mother's paternal side J2b-L283>Z1043>Y22894. That of course won't apply to all of the many paternal lines within my family tree, never claimed such a thing.

The intention behind Maleschreiber's post was to cope with the paternal homogenity of an ancient Western Balkan people he obsesses over so much. You are blending out the pseudoscientific E1b correlation suggestion of Maleschreiber, using a PCA with medieval samples next to actual BA/IA samples.

Anyways, we can agree to disagree on many matters and that is okay.

[torzio]

So yeahhh, Cetina J-L283 males have this autosomal profile because of intermarriage with other groups who carried other haplogroups and over time the common Illyrian autosomal cline was created from north to south.

the bulk of that line is Northern Balkan ..........ie modern slovenia and croatia

[eupator]

The only way to be certain of patrilinear lineage down the line throughout the passing of thousands of years is through Y-DNA, and to a much lesser extent through mtDNA for the maternal side.

Autosomals are entirely washed out in the span of 10 generations meaning that your ancestor 11 generations ago has completely disappeared, the only thing that's left in terms of actual biological connection to you is possible similarity on a PCA.

Only his Y-DNA (or her mtDNA respectively) remains.

So in that sense, only Y-DNA (/mtDNA) can confirm or discard the trace of genealogy in such lengthy time-spans.

For example, the way we can be certain of the lasting impact of historical migrations is through the occurence of such markers, like Y-DNA

Ssomeone from Crete may plot entirely like his neighbors and have sites like mytrueancestry tell him that he's the real descendant of the Minoans based on a plot, but maybe it's his Y-DNA that can tell the whole truth.

If it's Ia2-din, for instance, then we know this person is a successful lineage that stems from the Slavic migrations/invasions into the medieval Helladic space, one that made a long lasting impact, maybe at the expense of another older lineage that was forced to leave or even wiped out.

As such, the historical presence of Slavs in the Helladic space (and of Vlachs and others) can only be realised through the frequency of their markers since their autosomals had plenty of time to move away from the original ancestral population, etc.