Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Hawk]

Matzinger is E-V13 himself.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Suffix 'um' can be lost in a language like 'us' 'as' or any other given thing, one can also observe many different onomastics among Illyrian. Some of these seem to of also come from Roman and Greek influence. So which is the correct form according to mr.Matzinger DiMALUM or DIMALITAN

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimale

The toponym belongs to the southeast Dalmatian onomastic area of Illyrian.^[7] It is a compound of di + mal. The root mal – is reflected in many ancient Balkan (Illyrian or Thracian) toponyms such as Malontum, Maloventum, Malontina, Dacia Maluensis etc.^[8][9] The Illyrian toponym Dimallum has been connected to Albanian di-male, meaning "two mountains", with the Proto-Albanian form of the second component reconstructed as mol-no.^[9] The Illyrian reconstruction of the first component has been rendered as *d(ṷ)i-, 'two'. Therefore Dimale must have meant '(settlement between) two mountains' in Illyrian.^[1]

The bolded part is ironically from Matzinger that literally admits we are looking at an Albanian toponym ? .... But I guess the 'um' , noooo two different languages ....

 

[exercitus]

Hawk i personally do not belong to the big three patrilineal lineage of the modern Albanian ethnos, i belong to a paleo-european lineage but ethnically/culturally i am an Albanian ... The scientific 'truth' is 'sacred', that is for me is an absolute principle, i do not care who Matzinger is, if he does not offer true authentic scientific facts, and not just some Smerd-like wierdy interpretations, than his deductions are just dust in the wind!!

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Hawk i personally do not belong to the big three patrilineal lineage of the modern Albanian ethnos, i belong to a paleo-european lineage but ethnically/culturally i am an Albanian ... The scientific 'truth' is 'sacred', that is for me is an absolute principle, i do not care who Matzinger is, if he does not offer true authentic scientific facts, and not just some Smerd-like wierdy interpretations, than his deductions are just dust in the wind!!

You can basically read his book for free here https://books.google.com/books?id=0N9SEAAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y . There are some free chapters, if you speak or know German, you can go straight to the linguistic part.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

I basically just read through the book of pages that were available and nothing special. They claim Albanian doesn't follow phonetic changes and they have used Weigand as a source who claimed Albanian to be Thracian basically. They provide no compelling evidence. They argue based on few words that Messapian and Illyrian are also different. Basically all their ideas are constructed based on other linguists that have been dealt with including Schramm, Georgiev, Weigand and many others. They needed to remove Messapian out of the picture in order to make the claim Albanian is not Illyrian. And they did it based on no compelling evidence. You can read people like Noel Malcolm, Cabej, Eric Hamp etc etc. and look at their sources where they cite various linguists, all people that have been dealt with, these kind of debates about Albanian have been had for 60 years. There are no new ideas. These are not really newly constructed ideas.


People just bandwagon whatever they wanna believe. I guess we should all put our hands down and give up, I am sold by the compelling evidence :unhappy:

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

I google translated this from an Italian book about the toponym Dimale

The Illyrian city of Dimalla (or Dimale), identified in today's Krotinë / Berat, northwest of Apollonia, has returned a set of epigraphic documents consisting for the vast majority of stamps on tiles dating back to between the 3rd and 2nd centuries. BC, and some stone inscriptions. Among the former, we note in particular a series of stamps relating to public ateliers, some bearing the name of the polis, still in the Doric-northwestern form Διμάλλας, others bearing the ethnic in the plural genitive Διμαλλίταν, indications that the publisher, B. Dautaj, suggested interpreting as afferent respectively to the Dimalla polis alone, on the one hand, and to the Dimallitai koinon, on the other. "P. 74:" see, as significant examples, the coexistence of the writings ΔΙΜΑΛΛΙΤΑΝ and ΔΙΜΑΛΛΑ in the molds on a tile from Dimalla "

The identification of the site of Krotinë with the ancient Illyrian city became possible thanks to the discovery of ancient tiles stamped with the word DIMALLITAN (Greek: ΔΙΜΑΛΛΙΤΑΝ).^[21][22] The epigraphic material found at Dimale is mainly constituted by stamps on tiles datable between the 3rd and 2nd century BC, and by some stone inscriptions. The name of the polis is written in the Northwest Doric form Διμάλλας, Dimallas, while the name of the ethnicon is written in the genitive plural Διμαλλίταν, Dimallitan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimale


So we basically don't have a single text of Illyrian, the only thing we have is either in Greek or in Latin and in Latin the names appear with an 'Un' and 'Um' . In Greek they appear different. We only have tribal names and some words.

What these people are claiming is that the place names in Latin of 'Un' and 'Um' is supposed to be a typical Illyrian trait when it is actually Latin ? It appears many Illyrian place names never appeared like this originally.

They also argue based on some Illyrian tribal names with ae that it must be different from Messapian. When these type of suffixes in reality seem to vary. And can even
change. Such as Albanoi changed to Arbanon and later became Arberesh , Arberia, Arbenia, Arbonites, Arvanon etc

Based on few things they seem to argue Messapian and Albanian are different from Illyrian and they use different arguments yet apparently Messapian and Albanian
not aligning with each other in everything still seem to be related apparently.

Also it's lame to claim Albanian as descendant from an undocumented paleo-balkan language and not Illyrian when literally Illyrian is an undocumented language.

I will be reading more and update.

 

[Hawk]

Low IQ is heavy burden to carry.

This thread has been infected from two nutcases. You write once why he is wrong and that's it, you don't repeat the same thing.

This place is for discussing the possibilities, it's not about cementing and stamping the origin. He has given his opinion in a scientific way he believes is a good linguistic methodology. Now let's see the reviews by other prominent linguists.

 

[Johane Derite]

Google translated:

Copper and Early Bronze Ages in the Balkans
(4th-early 2nd millennium BC)


Only in the last few years have the new possibilities of genetics led to a useful reconstruction of earlier settlement processes in south-eastern Europe (Mathieson et al. 2018; Krause 2019, 115-134). I.


In the 6th mill. Anatolian farmers migrated to the Balkan Peninsula and gradually spread from here into the interior of Europe. At the beginning of the 3rd millennium then followed more and more intensive immigration slices, this time from the South Russian steppes.


This led to indo-Europeanization not only in south-eastern Europe, but also in large parts of Europe.


The steppe DNA is essentially composed of ancestral Northern Eurasians and immigrants from Iran. In the last third of the 4th millennium. the Yamnaja or pit grave culture emerged in the space between the Caspian and Black Sea. The invention of the wheel and cart, the domestication of the horse and the production of the first arsenic bronzes are attributed to her.


It was a highly mobile cattle herding society, for which the erection of huge burial mounds, so-called Kurgane, is characteristic. The exposed dead were mostly men and were buried in grave chambers with jewelry, weapons and a whole wagon, lying on their backs with their legs drawn up, often sprinkled with ocher. In addition to seasonal settlement areas, there were also permanent, sometimes fortified settlements in the river dividers, which suggests that not only cattle breeding but also arable farming (Parzinger 2014, 395-397).


Towards the end of the 4th millennium. there was a sudden drop in climate which led to the drying up of the South Russian steppe valley. Nomad groups of the Yamnaja culture first moved to the Hungarian Plain and the lower Danube region.


The manner of burial and the furnishing of the dead are marked by an astonishing similarity. For the first time, hill graves and battle axes and string-adorned clay cups appear in this area. The Vucedol culture in Pannonia, named after the settlement finds on the Ljubljana Moor, is regarded as an offshoot of the steppe nomadic Kurgan culture.


It took shape in several regional variants (Schnurbein 2010, 75). The DNA analyzes also show that the immigrants were mainly men, who often associated with the local women. The share of immigrants in the population was around 80% (Krause 2019, 128).


The giant grave figurines in the Bay of Kotor, which have been completely examined using modern methods, date from around 2800 BC. BC (Primate 1996). In the grave figurehead of Mala Gruda, next to the hips of the only burial, lay a shaft-hole ax made of a copper-silver alloy.


On his head the man wore five small gold rings of northwest Greek shape. He also owned a gold-bladed dagger of the Levantine type (Primas 1996, 17-18). Several phases of allocation and occupancy have been documented in Velika Gruda.


In the oldest period A, the grave figurehead already had a diameter of 23 m. It covered a stone box grave sunk into the natural ground. The adult man had been given an ax and two arsenic bronze knives, a cylindrical polishing stone, and two boar tusks. On his head he wore eight gold rings of a shape similar to that in Mala Gruda. A handle and a creator, both with deeply incised Vucedol patterns, are added to the ceramics.


The handle shell is, however, an Agaic shape (Primas 1996, 25-112). The double-edged knives, on the other hand, occur in Kurganen in the Dnieper region (Primas 1996, 93-94, Fig. 7.1) and are often with 'stone blocks' that were used as polishing stones (Primas 1996, 116-117, Fig. 8.3), socialized.

Hill graves of the early 3rd millennium. are also known from Cetina in northern Dalmatia. We also know the cremation that is customary here from Late Copper Age graves on the Lower Danube and in the Carpathian Basin (Primas 1996, 133, Fig. 9.3).


Early Bronze Age tumuli, which also still show characteristics of the Kurgan culture, have been researched in north and central Albanian necropolises on the lower Adriatic. The clay ware that was added is similar to the settlement ceramics in the Korca plain, which is to be placed there using 14-C data in the period between approx. 2850 and 2400 (Korkuti 2013, 397). In Shtoj near Shkodra, too, the strikingly large funerary cages 2 and 6 were erected at this early stage with several phases of partitioning. They are characterized by outer and inner stone circles and central graves sunk into the ground. The oldest core of Tumulus 6 was a hill made of earth and stones with a diameter of 11 m.


Underneath was the central grave 16, paneled with stones. The stool burial was carefully covered with a layer of small stones and sprinkled with ocher. There were six anthropomorphic clay figures on it. With the enlargement of the tumulus, burials 14 and 15 were introduced, in which, as in the cage filling, was decorated ceramics of the north Adriatic variant of the Vucedol culture (Korkuti 2013, 461-463).


Also in Pazhoku, just south of the Shkumbin Valley, the giant tumulus I with a diameter of 30 m and an outer stone circle dates to the early Bronze Age. The central burial was framed by its own stone circle. The person buried in the right stool position had a cattle skull (Korkuti 2013, 473, T. VIII b).

All of these findings point to eastern elements in burial customs as well as in the shape and decoration of ceramics and weapons. But it cannot be seen that other cultural currents, for example from the Agais, reached the Western Balkans.

This part is interesting, forgot to bolden it:



We also know the cremation that is customary here from Late Copper Age graves on the Lower Danube and in the Carpathian Basin (Primas 1996, 133, Fig. 9.3).

 

[Hawk]

A Neolithic survivor lineage in Balkans residing in Central Balkans, Bubanj-Hum III practiced cremation. But cremation as a generic phenomenon doesn't mean common ancestry, there is wide-range of them. Analyzing the process of burial rite gives us more details.

A question arises, is the so called Brnjica-Mediana group just a Middle Bronze Age sibling of it's more Northern sibling Gava/Channeled-Ware? I have no idea, people keep saying they were different people.

It looks like the name Dardani really should be attributed either to:

1. Brnjica-Mediana
2. Gava/Channeled-Ware

Because of obvious reasons, Dardani were mentioned in North/West Anatolia during LBA as allies of Hittites and in Iliad as one of the groups forming Troy. The various South-East Urnfield Cultures from Danube Valley had contacts with Anatolia during this time. It should also be noted that Brnjica are regarded also as one of the world's first iron smithers, though not mass-producing it.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

I haven't gotten to read through everything since some of the pages aren't available. And I'm certainly not going to waste my money on some useless information I could get anywhere else. But here is just to show you some mistakes this guy has made from earlier work https://www.albanologie.uni-muenche...matzinger_nov_2016/muenchen_2_ethnogenese.pdf

In this work he claimed Latin loan words in Albanian to of only changed from sk to k or something and the o has only changed from a, such as he claims Scodra must of changed into Hader and not Shkoder. He claims I think Sc or Sk after it changed to hk should of changed into h .

Latein. Lehnwörter/sk/ nur als /ʃk/ substituiertlatein. /ó/ alt durch /u/ substituiert,später durch /o/

z.B. ON Scodra: läge hier eine lineare illyrisch-albanische Kontinuität vor, so müssteder Name mit erbwörtlicher Entwicklung behandelt worden sein, das Resultat davon wäre**Hádër (siehe oben EXKURS 3: Entwicklung von idg. */sṢ/ zu späturalban. */h/ undvon idg. */ó/ > frühuralban. */á/, beides Wandel, die chronolog. vor der Aufnahme derältesten Lehnwörter bereits beendet waren!). Die reale alban. Lautform Shkódër zeigt jedoch lehnwörtliche Behandlung! Dies gilt auch für andere Orts- und Flussnamen aufalbanischem Territorium.

He seemed to of ignored Noel Malcolm quoting Cabej on Schramms claim ? Yet he seems to quote Noel Malcolm about his claim ?

It had already been answered by Cabej, who pointed out that the shift to 'h' belonged to a much earlier (pre-Roman) period of Albanian: 'Problem of Autochthony', p. 44. Schramm's case can be disproved by a series of Albanian borrowings from Latin, such as shkorse (rug) from scortea, shkendije (spark) from scantilla, shkemb (rock-formation) from scamnum, and shkop (staff) from scopae: see Capidan, 'Raporturile'. pp. 546-8; Philippide, Originea Rominilor, vol. 2, pp. 653-4; Cabej, 'Zur Charakteristik', p. 177; and the entries in Meyer, Etymologisches Worterbuch.

In many of these cases the sc has turnd to sh and o even sometimes to e or a.

Matzinger used one single apparent Greek loan word in this case also 'hurdhe' in Greek apparently: ''Skorodon'' or something to claim that 'Scoder' should of changed to 'Hader' ?


German is not my first language but I used to speak it so I might not understand what this guy is on about but it's almost like some autistic work of a guy who thinks there is a universal code of change in everything.

 

[Hawk]

Joachim Matzinger is an Austrian carrying E-V13. Obviously, he is your enemy, that's why he doesn't like you and you don't like him.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

I kept reading the paper I linked above and I understand now more of what he means, some of his claims are opposed by other scholars such as Radoslav Katicic, so lets go through some of the things he claims so far in this paper


He claims the name Shkoder could not of developed from Albanian
yet Slavs have almost the same name 'Skadar'. And we can
see these type of changes occurred in many areas. Coastal
areas of Albania were Romanized anyway and lowlands were occupied
by Slavs essentially. It is still possible that a proto-Albanian
population would of also picked up these toponyms from other
Romanized Illyrians. This still does not prove there were no Albanian speakers there.
We also know the Gheg-Tosk split is most likely happened right before Slavs so we know Albanian
speakers preceded the Slavs in many parts of Albania regardless, it is natural Albanians, if they were not in these areas
would of picked up placenames from the native Illyrians which would of essentially been picked up by Slavs from Albanian
regardless. We have the rivername 'Drin' for example and we have some others also.


He claims 'Mat', which in Albanian has been explained to mean 'river-bank' shows no development since ancient times and therefore must be a
loan word.


I haven't seen him mention the name 'Albanoi' yet or to explain it's development which developmed into 'Arbanon'.


Claims Albanians originated in Dardania (which was literally
Illyrian territory) and that Nish and Shtip were picked up
by Slavs, where the old name 'Naissos' and 'Abistos' developed into
Albanian 'Nish' and 'Shtip' and were picked up by Slavs which in this case makes sense and supported
by other scholars yet the name for the mountains around Kosovo, Macedonia and
Albania called in Albanian 'Sharr' and in which in the
antique was called 'Scardus' , 'Scordus' , literally
developed into Albanian 'Sharr' and which was picked up by Slavs into 'Sar' yet this is supposedly not Albanian nor does it show Albanian development.
In this case he even quotes Schramm again. But it is in the same way 'Scutari' to 'Shkoder' developed or how Naissos developed into 'Nish' , there is a 'h' turn from 's' that can be observed in some of these development regardless if they are at the beginning of the word or in the middle.


This is from Katicic :

The Slavic name, "Šar", presupposes sound development characteristic to the Albanian language from “Scardus”

On the other hand Niš from Ναϊσσός, Štip from Ἄστιβος, Šar from Scardus, and Ohrid from Lychnidus presuppose the sound development characteristic for Albanian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šar_Mountains


So Katicic claims here the name 'Sharr' clearly shows an Albanian development and which was picked up by Slavs. It is a similar development to 'Shkoder' and many other words that were explained by Cabej. He also agrees Nish and Shtip show an Albanian development which was picked up by Slavs.




Yet this dude is claiming that they do not show an Albanian development based on a single Greek loan word. Yet claims right next to these areas supposedly show Albanian development and in a similar fashion where 'Sar' has clearly been picked up by Slavs from Albanian 'Sharr' in the same way he claims 'Nis' was picked up by Slavs from Albanian 'Nish' .

He argues based on the fact that 'Sk' or 'Sc' in Albanian should of turned entirely into 'h'.



This seems to also ignore entirely the idea that even if proto-Albanians did not originate in Albania they clearly did not find the area empty, that's how the name 'Albanoi' occurred. We are also talking about two neighboring areas. Lets also not forget a lot of native words in Albanian refer to high altitude mountains and shepherding which brings me to the toponym ''Sharr'' again.

He even goes as far as comparing the German name 'Schumacher' to claim if Sharr is Albanian or Shkoder is Albanian then 'Shumacher' must supposedly
be Albanian.


This is also the paper where he also mentions the Bessi tribe. I will keep reading.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Even the name 'Viciana' (Romans added the suffix 'um') Suffix 'um' in Illyrian toponym is actually of Roman influence and was not originally Illyrian, in Kosovo which has turned into 'Vushtrri' show a similar development like 'Sharr' , Shtip, 'Nish' , 'Shkoder' and many others. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučitrn and which Slavs most likely also picked up from Albanian speakers.

Where either the 'c' or 's' has been introduced as 'h'. It doesn't matter if it's at the start of a word or not . These type of changes can be seen across Northern Albania and Dardania yet this dude claims they are not Albanian, he cherry picks what is an Albanian development and not based on some extremely dubious claims. To me it seems this guy is trying to push a home land in Eastern Dardania basically close to Thracian/Dacian territory, supporting the Bessi theory of Schramm (?), but claim it is 'from an undocumented Balkan language' when literally Illyrian is undocumented.

This guy is contradicting himself in every possible way.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Btw, in his newer book 'Die Illyrer', from what I understood when I read the pages I got to read and I might be wrong about this, he does not seem to say directly that Albanian is not Illyrian he simply claims ''There is no continuity'' and ''Two different'' languages based on some extremely dubious claims such as 'ul' and 'ur' in some Illyrian names or toponyms . Of course there might not be a continuity in every aspect, languages change but these type of claims cannot be made based on an undocumented language comparing it with a living language to claim they did not share a common ancestor at one point. The same thing with Messapian, using some suffix that appear in Illyrian such as 'ae' to claim Messapian did not once descendant from Illyrians is also dubious or not in ''agreement'' when we literally have cultural material that shows they came from the Western Balkans. This guy is literally a propagandist.

The 'um' and 'un' this dude is larping on about is of Roman influence also.



I will keep reading.

 

[Johane Derite]

Google translated:
"For Illyrian itself, which, according to the findings given here, cannot be continued in modern Albanian, it can finally be established with regard to its linguistic history that, like other local languages ​​in the Balkans, apart from Greek and the precursor of Albanian, it has gradually been abandoned would.
After the territorial integration of the Illyrian area under the Roman rulership structure, the speakers of Illyrian will probably have switched to Latin after a certain phase of bilingualism, as can also be observed in other areas of the ancient world, where Roman rule in the course of the The change to Latin followed (see for example Italy, where the local Italian languages ​​but also Etruscan was abandoned with the expansion of Rome, or Gaul, where the Celtic variety shows gave way to Latin; see here e.g. Budinszky 1881 and Adams 2004 ).
The circumstances under which this language change from Illyrian to Latin took place, for how long a bilingual phase can be assumed and how long remains of Illyrian could have been preserved in post-ancient times cannot be determined due to a lack of data.
Pg 167"

Matzinger says it clearly here that he is arguing that Illryian went extinct, and that the onlt surviving local balkan languages are albanian and greek.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Matzinger says it clearly here that he is arguing that Illryian went extinct, and that the onlt surviving local balkan languages are albanian and greek.

The paragraphs you quoted contradict themselves?

Google translated:

"For Illyrian itself, which, according to the findings given here, cannot be continued in modern Albanian, it can finally be established with regard to its linguistic history that, like other local languages ​​in the Balkans, apart from Greek and the precursor of Albanian, it has gradually been abandoned would.


After the territorial integration of the Illyrian area under the Roman rulership structure, the speakers of Illyrian will probably have switched to Latin after a certain phase of bilingualism, as can also be observed in other areas of the ancient world, where Roman rule in the course of the The change to Latin followed (see for example Italy, where the local Italian languages ​​but also Etruscan was abandoned with the expansion of Rome, or Gaul, where the Celtic variety shows gave way to Latin; see here e.g. Budinszky 1881 and Adams 2004 ).


The circumstances under which this language change from Illyrian to Latin took place ??, for how long a bilingual phase can be assumed and how long remains of Illyrian could have been preserved in post-ancient times cannot be determined due to a lack of data.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Pg 167"

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]will probably, could have, can be assumed, cannot be determined, lack of data[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I am sure Johane you know my opinion on linguistics from this and that other forum, which is bar statistical neural models it can not be considered a science ala Popper.

To be frank I have no idea about this Metzinger guy nor an opinion, cant judge something I have not read. But by those two paragraphs little can be proven. This is like trying to connect the dots minus the dots.[/FONT]

 

[torzio]

Dardania is part of Superior Moesia

The Romans created the province of Moesia from parts of Dardania, but later made it a separate province called Dardania.

eastern part of Moesia was the superior Thracian tribe called the Triballi ....................their emblem the Wild Boar is used in Serbian government documentation

Below is the only map from anicent times which states Dardania is part of Illyria

Map is at start of 2nd Punic war against Hannibal .....................note: Albania is under Macedon Empire

 

[torzio]

Btw, in his newer book 'Die Illyrer', from what I understood when I read the pages I got to read and I might be wrong about this, he does not seem to say directly that Albanian is not Illyrian he simply claims ''There is no continuity'' and ''Two different'' languages based on some extremely dubious claims such as 'ul' and 'ur' in some Illyrian names or toponyms . Of course there might not be a continuity in every aspect, languages change but these type of claims cannot be made based on an undocumented language comparing it with a living language to claim they did not share a common ancestor at one point. The same thing with Messapian, using some suffix that appear in Illyrian such as 'ae' to claim Messapian did not once descendant from Illyrians is also dubious or not in ''agreement'' when we literally have cultural material that shows they came from the Western Balkans. This guy is literally a propagandist.
The 'um' and 'un' this dude is larping on about is of Roman influence also.
I will keep reading.

He also states the pre-slavic slovenia, croatia, Montenegro spoke Illyrian ..................clearly aiming that Messapian came out of Croatian Illyrian lands ........................we know it mixed firstly with local Italic tribes in Apulia when it arrived circa 1000BC .............over time it would have mixed more by the time it opened its gates to trading with Epirus 600 years later.

But its only a language ...it has no ethnic value for the people , same as today is the same as yesterday

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

'' As Papazoglu notes, most ancient sources classify Dardanians as Illyrians. Her reasons for rejecting this identification in a later essay, 'Les Royaumes', are obscure. There were Thracian names in the eastern strip of Dardania, but Illyrian names dominated the rest; Katicic has shown that these belong with two other Illyrian 'onomastic provinces' (see his summary in Ancient Languages, pp. 179-81, and the evidence in Papazoglu, 'Dardanska onomastika').''

- Malcolm, Noel.

 

[Hawk]

It's New Year and this man is still crying about bogeyman called Matzinger.

Obviously masks have fallen. If anything not in their favor, they start crying like babies.