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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I am pretty sure he is not a Kosovar as he doesn't know anything about "North East Geg" dialects whatsoever.
    It's just how languages work. Italy had plenty of Italic languages in antiquity, but all modern Italian dialects descend from Rome. There were plenty of Illyrian dialects/languages all over Illyria, but modern Albanian dialects from northern Albania (Tosk at the dawn of the Middle Ages, while Kosovar dialects after the Middle Ages).

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    They did a quantitative analysis, and yes Albanian has more in common with Western Balkan Romance. Those Romanian linguists said it with a straight face.
    The quantitaive analysis was one incomplete work from a Romanian from the 50s, which has not been accepted by any academic since then. I

    n fact this has been perceived by some as a Romanian nationalist attempt to disentangle proto-Romanians from Albanians so that they can claim the proto-Romanians were in Romania (this is not accepted, rather it is thought they crossed the danube later).


    And there is an explicit paper by Matzinger debunking this wikipedia notion:

    L'elemento latino della lingua albanese - un impatto della Via Egnatia?
    Joachim Matzinger


    Abstract


    According to a wide-spread theory, the Latin loanwords of Albanian originate from the Latin once spoken along the Via Egnatia which ran through Albania on its way to Byzantium.

    This theory implies the presence of Albanians in their actual territory already in ancient times in full accordance with the popular theory of an Albanian autochthony.

    However, a thorough investigation of the phonological history of the Latin loanwords and the Albanian toponymy reveals that they are affected by the same late sound laws.

    This indicates that both these lexical units have entered the Albanian language only in post-Christian times which creates a strong argument against the autochtony of the Albanians.

    The Latin loanwords of Albanian have thus been integrated when the ancestors of the Albanians were still dwelling in the Balkan hinterland, in some areas distant from the Via Egnatia."


    Likewise, other historians and linguists all accept that Albanian quantitatively has far more eastern than western latin loans. It is inconceivable to present this one off theory as having some sort of weight today in academia.


    Noel Malcolm:

    "Late Latin developed in two different forms in the Balkans: a coastal variety, which survived as a distinct language (known as Dalmatian) until the end of the nineteenth century, and the form spoken in the interior, which turned into Romanian and Vlach.

    From place-names it is clear that the coastal form, spoken also in Shkodra and Durres, penetrated some way into the northern Albanian mountains.

    There are some traces of this variety of Latin in Albanian, but the Albanian language's links with the inland variety of Balkan Latin are much stronger. This suggests that the centre of gravity ofAlbanian-Vlach symbiosis lay a little further to the east."
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The quantitaive analysis was one incomplete work from a Romanian from the 50s, which has not been accepted by any academic since then. I

    n fact this has been perceived by some as a Romanian nationalist attempt to disentangle proto-Romanians from Albanians so that they can claim the proto-Romanians were in Romania (this is not accepted, rather it is thought they crossed the danube later).


    And there is an explicit paper by Matzinger debunking this wikipedia notion:

    L'elemento latino della lingua albanese - un impatto della Via Egnatia?
    Joachim Matzinger


    Abstract


    According to a wide-spread theory, the Latin loanwords of Albanian originate from the Latin once spoken along the Via Egnatia which ran through Albania on its way to Byzantium.

    This theory implies the presence of Albanians in their actual territory already in ancient times in full accordance with the popular theory of an Albanian autochthony.

    However, a thorough investigation of the phonological history of the Latin loanwords and the Albanian toponymy reveals that they are affected by the same late sound laws.

    This indicates that both these lexical units have entered the Albanian language only in post-Christian times which creates a strong argument against the autochtony of the Albanians.

    The Latin loanwords of Albanian have thus been integrated when the ancestors of the Albanians were still dwelling in the Balkan hinterland, in some areas distant from the Via Egnatia."


    Likewise, other historians and linguists all accept that Albanian quantitatively has far more eastern than western latin loans. It is inconceivable to present this one off theory as having some sort of weight today in academia.


    Noel Malcolm:

    "Late Latin developed in two different forms in the Balkans: a coastal variety, which survived as a distinct language (known as Dalmatian) until the end of the nineteenth century, and the form spoken in the interior, which turned into Romanian and Vlach.

    From place-names it is clear that the coastal form, spoken also in Shkodra and Durres, penetrated some way into the northern Albanian mountains.

    There are some traces of this variety of Latin in Albanian, but the Albanian language's links with the inland variety of Balkan Latin are much stronger. This suggests that the centre of gravity ofAlbanian-Vlach symbiosis lay a little further to the east."
    Yes, yes, I know. Every linguist that's not Matzinger is wrong. Now if we only could get Matzinger to agree with himself, because every 3 years he comes up with some new shit to sell books and keep his academic job.

    And for the last time, stop spamming random bullshit. No one's gonna read your nonsense. Either do smaller or quotes or stop filling the threads with garbage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Yes, yes, I know. Every linguist that's not Matzinger is wrong. Now if we only could get Matzinger to agree with himself, because every 3 years he comes up with some new shit to sell books and keep his academic job.
    Nope. You have to resort to lying constantly because your position isn't based on truthfully assessing the evidence.

    Noel Malcolm is not Matzinger. Trying to single out Matzinger when this is the consensus in academia among all academics today is not going to achieve anything, it will just further discredit you.

    Noel Malcolm also singles out Mihaescu as one of those earlier nonsense studies since it intentionally focussed on the religious vocabulary differences that were from a later stage when Romanians fell under the orthodox church.


    Noel Malcolm:


    67. Earlier studies linked Albanian exclusively with Romanian; more recent ones have tried to prise them apart, especially if written by Albanians trying to keep Albanian origins in Albania, or Romanians trying to keep Romanian origins in Romania: see Cabej, 'Zur Charakteristik'; Mihaescu,

    'Les Elements' Mihaescu uses Latin Christian vocabulary in Albanian to emphasize its divergence from Romanian, but this is highly misleading: Romanian has a different vocabulary here simply because Romanians were later brought under the Orthodox Church."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Nope. You have to resort to lying constantly because your position isn't based on truthfully assessing the evidence.

    Noel Malcolm is not Matzinger. Trying to single out Matzinger when this is the consensus in academia among all academics today is not going to achieve anything, it will just further discredit you.

    Noel Malcolm also singles out Mihaescu as one of those earlier nonsense studies since it intentionally focussed on the religious vocabulary differences that were from a later stage when Romanians fell under the orthodox church.


    Noel Malcolm:


    67. Earlier studies linked Albanian exclusively with Romanian; more recent ones have tried to prise them apart, especially if written by Albanians trying to keep Albanian origins in Albania, or Romanians trying to keep Romanian origins in Romania: see Cabej, 'Zur Charakteristik'; Mihaescu,

    'Les Elements' Mihaescu uses Latin Christian vocabulary in Albanian to emphasize its divergence from Romanian, but this is highly misleading: Romanian has a different vocabulary here simply because Romanians were later brought under the Orthodox Church."
    What am I lying about? I literally quoted you people that have done this analysis. You don't like Albanian linguists, I showed you foreign linguists.

    With you everything comes to down to Matzinger. Get a room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Noel Malcolm is not Matzinger.
    Noel Malcolm is not a linguist. He's a journalist. You want to quote some drug dealers too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Noel Malcolm is not a linguist. He's a journalist. You want to quote some drug dealers too?
    Keep going, show everybody here exactly what a low order of creature you are.

    Equating Noel Malcolm with a drug dealer is so pathetically desperate.

    You must have gotten very mad that your stupid wikipedia linked romanian linguist Mihaescu and his argument from the 50s is not valid in the slightest and not accepted as serious by anybody in academia.

    As for Noel Malcolm, here is something from your beloved wikipedia about who he is:


    He studied history at Peterhouse, Cambridge, between 1974 and 1978. He received his PhD in history while he was at Trinity College, Cambridge.

    Malcolm was a Fellow and college lecturer at Gonville and Caius College, Cambridge, from 1981 to 1988.

    He was knighted in the 2014 New Year Honours for services to scholarship, journalism, and European history.

    If you had five lifetimes you wouldn't be able to achieve what he has done, because you are a very low and irrelevant nobody. You can keep yapping all you want, nobody respects your yapping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Keep going, show everybody here exactly what a low order of creature you are.
    Equating Noel Malcolm with a drug dealer is so pathetically desperate.
    You must have gotten very mad that your stupid wikipedia linked romanian linguist Mihaescu and his argument from the 50s is not valid in the slightest and not accepted as serious by anybody in academia.
    As for Noel Malcolm, here is something from your beloved wikipedia about who he is:
    He studied history at Peterhouse, Cambridge, between 1974 and 1978. He received his PhD in history while he was at Trinity College, Cambridge.
    Malcolm was a Fellow and college lecturer at Gonville and Caius College, Cambridge, from 1981 to 1988.
    He was knighted in the 2014 New Year Honours for services to scholarship, journalism, and European history.
    If you had five lifetimes you wouldn't be able to achieve what he has done, because you are a very low and irrelevant nobody. You can keep yapping all you want, nobody respects your yapping.
    I'm equating him with someone who doesn't have a degree in linguistics and that's not his field.

    The people I'm quoting you are actual linguists, not journalists.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    My paternal line is f'ing Illyrian... the African answer was just at the same cognitive level as your weird answer to my phenotype comment. Sure but I don't think these E1b people were as fair as PIE Illyrians or had in any way similar features... I mean would be obscure if they did. Also just looking at that turban like garnment of those Berisha/Kelmendi/Sopi whatever guys in Rugova and their tan and features...yikes.
    Indeed. Chances are they didn't. At least those in the Balkans.

    Illyrian Iapodian in K13, closer to North Euros than to MENA's
    Distance to: I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    22.35843912 German
    26.77410316 Scottish
    30.37995885 Danish
    32.95071168 Algerian
    41.36360840 Russian
    43.87628403 Syrian
    48.73961941 Lebanese_Druze





    Iron Age Thracian in K13, closer to MENA's than NE's.
    Distance to: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    22.59103362 Algerian
    33.04508284 Syrian
    36.74405938 Lebanese_Druze
    40.89445928 German
    45.71078866 Scottish
    49.24464742 Danish
    55.60052068 Russian


    Albanians are autosomally better modelled as mainly Iron Age Thracians + obvious Slavic input (Albanians get higher Baltic than Illyrians despite being more Southern and less Steppe in comparison, so certainly this is Slavic derived). Illyrians were North Italian-like. Illyrian autosomal element seems to pop up in calculations involving Ghegs.

    Distance to: I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    5.12415847 French_Provence
    5.43453770 Italian_Veneto
    5.56891372 Italian_Piedmont
    6.91223553 Italian_Friuli
    7.23040801 Italian_Liguria
    7.50322597 Italian_Trentino
    7.63498527 Italian_Lombardy
    7.66717679 Italian_Emilia
    7.95719800 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    8.92562603 Swiss_Italian
    9.82746661 Portuguese
    9.86850039 Spanish_Extremadura
    10.24896092 Italian_Tuscany
    10.95161175 Spanish_Galicia
    11.07736882 Swiss_French
    11.18624602 Austrian_Tyrol
    11.19579385 Spanish_Catalonia
    11.31314722 Spanish_Murcia
    11.36757230 Spanish_Andalusia
    11.75111910 Italian_Romagna
    11.85622200 Spanish_Castile-León
    12.05249767 Spanish_Valencia
    12.38313369 Italian_Umbria
    12.63928795 Spanish_Castilla-La_Mancha
    12.65749975 French_South

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    Well, in absence of South Illyrian genomes, i guess the algorithm automatically picks up Iron Age Bulgarian instead of Dalmatian. I am like sure of this. Probably the ancient Balkans was more divided in an horizontal axum as well, having more Mediterranean to the South and more Steppe to the North. On a vertical axum it was the slight WHG admixture which differed the West Balkans from deeper South/East Balkans.

    Realistically i expect South Illyrian + Thracian + Greek (more Mediterranean) and North Illyrian + Danubian Daco-Moesians and last Slavic admixture among Albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Well, in absence of South Illyrian genomes, i guess the algorithm automatically picks up Iron Age Bulgarian instead of Dalmatian. I am like sure of this. Probably the ancient Balkans was more divided in an horizontal axum as well, having more Mediterranean to the South and more Steppe to the North. On a vertical axum it was the slight WHG admixture which differed the West Balkans from deeper South/East Balkans.

    Realistically i expect South Illyrian + Thracian + Greek (more Mediterranean) and North Illyrian + Danubian Daco-Moesians and last Slavic admixture among Albanians.
    Well if something more Southern than Thracians enters the picture, like Mycenean like then Albanians can be modelled more after the Dalmatian Illyrian core.

    Also we see know that V13 was the premier Byzantine marker (majority of Avar V13 are Byzantines, so far 12/20, maybe few more). So a number of Albanian V13 could have ended up there in Late Antiquity that way too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Well, in absence of South Illyrian genomes, i guess the algorithm automatically picks up Iron Age Bulgarian instead of Dalmatian. I am like sure of this. Probably the ancient Balkans was more divided in an horizontal axum as well, having more Mediterranean to the South and more Steppe to the North. On a vertical axum it was the slight WHG admixture which differed the West Balkans from deeper South/East Balkans.

    Realistically i expect South Illyrian + Thracian + Greek (more Mediterranean) and North Illyrian + Danubian Daco-Moesians and last Slavic admixture among Albanians.

    Dalmatians and Liburnians spoke the same language ( another clue that Liburnia controlled Dalmatia in the late bronze and early iron age )...........it ranged from Northern Liburnia to Northern Montenegro .............it did not include Dubrovnik city

    It was spoken until about 1900 ......it was Illyrian based but developed Latin syntax over time after the Great illyrian revolt
    Vegliot, a northern dialect of Dalmatian, spoken in the island of Veglia, now called Krk in Croatian to Kotor Montenegro.
    It does not resemble Messapic

    After the romans disappeared , it had about 700 years of isolation before Venetian moved in around 1200AD .............it started taking in many Venetian language words etc until 1900 when the langauge disappeared

    The "illyrian" spoken in Dubrovnik developed into a different isolated stream................plus Dubrovnik was never under Venice
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    The evidence for a Latinised Illyrian people in North Albania can be found in placenames like:


    Kashnjet <- Castanetum
    Kallmet <- Calametum
    Qerret <- Ceretum
    Laç <- Latio
    Vinjall <- Vinealis


    Etc.


    But what happened to these Latin speaking Illyrians?


    There are indications that at least some of these Illyrians were assimilated by the Proto-Albanians.


    This might mean Central Ghegs and Northwest Ghegs possibly have an Illyrian component not present in Tosks and Northeast Ghegs.




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    I've long wondered about the etymology of "Gegë".


    Some have theorised origin from Greek "Gregor" or "Gigas" (Giants) but these are not convincing.


    Can there be any relation to Albanian. Gogë, a term used by Albanians to denote Latin speaking Vlachs?


    Gogës were claimed by Çabej to appear in the ethnographic record of North Albania as an old tribe.


    Gogënisht / Gogërisht is one of the terms for the Vlach language in Albanian.


    Is there a possibility that "Gegë" was a similar term to Gogë that originally referred to those Latin speaking Illyrians?


    Might this explain the traditional ethnographic division between Gegë-proper tribes and Lekë and Malësor tribes (although all three of these today are generally lumped in under the Gegë label)


    The Gegë proper tribes fall in the regions where we see the Latin toponyms and don't have migration myths, while both the Malësors and Lekë tribes have traditions of migration




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    "Po të pyesim pleq të ndryshëm nga Malësia e Lezhës, nga Bajrakët e Ohrit, nga Mirdita, nga Berisha, nga Merturi i Gurit, për prejardhjen e tyne, të gjithë kanë me t'u përgjegjë në një mënyrë:

    Na nuk jemi anas, por jemi të ardhun; këtu në këtë vend banonte një popullsi tjetër."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    "Po të pyesim pleq të ndryshëm nga Malësia e Lezhës, nga Bajrakët e Ohrit, nga Mirdita, nga Berisha, nga Merturi i Gurit, për prejardhjen e tyne, të gjithë kanë me t'u përgjegjë në një mënyrë:

    Na nuk jemi anas, por jemi të ardhun; këtu në këtë vend banonte një popullsi tjetër."

    English translation of some important parts:

    "" If we ask the elders of the highlands of Lezha, the tribes of Ohrid, Mirdita, Berisha, Merturi i Gurit, about their origins, they will all answer you in the same way:

    'We are not natives, we are migrants, another people lived here.'


    The migrants tell us with full conviction where they came from. They all say the same thing:


    'We came from the East, our home was the Plain of Dukagjin, as it's known by the people, or the Plain of Metohia as it's known in literature. That was our home which we left due to war, and retreated into the mountains."

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    Dardanians were also Latinized by the Romans too, not only the Illyrians from Illyria Proper

    In both Illyria and Dardania, there were Latinized Illyrians, as well as Non-Latinized Illyrian rebels, living in the mountains, avoiding Roman rule the best they could

    So if these linguists want to argue that Albania has Latin toponyms, and that the Proto-Albanian population couldn't have come from there, then why don't they apply that logic for Dardania? Dardania has plenty of Latin toponyms, so Proto-Albanians couldn't have come from Dardania either?

    "This might mean Central Ghegs and Northwest Ghegs possibly have an Illyrian component not present in Tosks and Northeast Ghegs."

    This is false, North-East Ghegs have plenty of the J2b2 Illyrian component, Kukes is 48% J2b2, Tropoja is a J2b2 hotspot as well, Gjakove and Prishtine have high J2b2, so North East Ghegs have a significant amount of Illyrian genes. Tosks have J2b2 in Laberia and near the coast, and an Arbereshe was found to be J2b2 as well, so the Illyrian component is found not only in Central and North West Ghegs, but all over Albanian lands. The oldest J2b2 branch, at 3200ybp, also belongs to a Tosk from Korca.

    Trying to attribute Illyrian J2b2-Z638 as a purely Romanized, non-Albanoid haplogroup, is jumping to conclusions without enough evidence. We know the Proto-Albanian language was likely formed above the Jiricek Line, where this Illyrian component, happens to be at it's highest frequencies, in Malsi, Kosova, and other Northern Albanians above the Drin River, with hotspots in Mirdite/Mat/Diber, the Arber stronghold. Dukagjin royal family are proven to be J2b2, calling one of the oldest royal Albanian families, non-Albanoid, sounds insane to me. We shouldn't be quick to call J2b2 a Romanized lineage, when it could very well be a non-Romanized lineage. We don't have proof that the Latin toponyms in Albania are from J2b2 people. What if the R1b/J2a/G2 Romans brought these toponyms, to J2b2 Non-Romanized Illyrians?

    We need linguists who also are also proficient in genealogy, and Albanian Gheg, to analyze the Albanian language. We may not have much material on what the ancient Balkan people spoke, which gives linguists not much to work with, so their best-guessed assumptions or theories, are just that, and not enough to be conclusive. But we do have solid DNA evidence, which can help conclude the origins of Albanian language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyria View Post
    Dardanians were also Latinized by the Romans too, not only the Illyrians from Illyria Proper

    In both Illyria and Dardania, there were Latinized Illyrians, as well as Non-Latinized Illyrian rebels, living in the mountains, avoiding Roman rule the best they could

    So if these linguists want to argue that Albania has Latin toponyms, and that the Proto-Albanian population couldn't have come from there, then why don't they apply that logic for Dardania? Dardania has plenty of Latin toponyms, so Proto-Albanians couldn't have come from Dardania either?

    "This might mean Central Ghegs and Northwest Ghegs possibly have an Illyrian component not present in Tosks and Northeast Ghegs."

    This is false, North-East Ghegs have plenty of the J2b2 Illyrian component, Kukes is 48% J2b2, Tropoja is a J2b2 hotspot as well, Gjakove and Prishtine have high J2b2, so North East Ghegs have a significant amount of Illyrian genes. Tosks have J2b2 in Laberia and near the coast, and an Arbereshe was found to be J2b2 as well, so the Illyrian component is found not only in Central and North West Ghegs, but all over Albanian lands. The oldest J2b2 branch, at 3200ybp, also belongs to a Tosk from Korca.

    Trying to attribute Illyrian J2b2-Z638 as a purely Romanized, non-Albanoid haplogroup, is jumping to conclusions without enough evidence. We know the Proto-Albanian language was likely formed above the Jiricek Line, where this Illyrian component, happens to be at it's highest frequencies, in Malsi, Kosova, and other Northern Albanians above the Drin River, with hotspots in Mirdite/Mat/Diber, the Arber stronghold. Dukagjin royal family are proven to be J2b2, calling one of the oldest royal Albanian families, non-Albanoid, sounds insane to me. We shouldn't be quick to call J2b2 a Romanized lineage, when it could very well be a non-Romanized lineage. We don't have proof that the Latin toponyms in Albania are from J2b2 people. What if the R1b/J2a/G2 Romans brought these toponyms, to J2b2 Non-Romanized Illyrians?

    We need linguists who also are also proficient in genealogy, and Albanian Gheg, to analyze the Albanian language. We may not have much material on what the ancient Balkan people spoke, which gives linguists not much to work with, so their best-guessed assumptions or theories, are just that, and not enough to be conclusive. But we do have solid DNA evidence, which can help conclude the origins of Albanian language.
    That was in reference to possible autosomal signal, there have been many bottle neck events so i doubt such a signal would be clear in such a small region only paternally. I'm not singling out L283, althought it does partially fit. There are probably Ev13 branches that also might fit such an origin, maybe even mine.

    The latinisation of dardania is accepted as paetial origin of the proto-vlachs, but the latin toponyms of north albania areof the dalmatian variety, and extend into remote regions in drin valley, fan valley, etc.

  19. #894
    Regular Member
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Indeed. Chances are they didn't. At least those in the Balkans.

    Illyrian Iapodian in K13, closer to North Euros than to MENA's
    Distance to: I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    22.35843912 German
    26.77410316 Scottish
    30.37995885 Danish
    32.95071168 Algerian
    41.36360840 Russian
    43.87628403 Syrian
    48.73961941 Lebanese_Druze





    Iron Age Thracian in K13, closer to MENA's than NE's.
    Distance to: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    22.59103362 Algerian
    33.04508284 Syrian
    36.74405938 Lebanese_Druze
    40.89445928 German
    45.71078866 Scottish
    49.24464742 Danish
    55.60052068 Russian


    Albanians are autosomally better modelled as mainly Iron Age Thracians + obvious Slavic input (Albanians get higher Baltic than Illyrians despite being more Southern and less Steppe in comparison, so certainly this is Slavic derived). Illyrians were North Italian-like. Illyrian autosomal element seems to pop up in calculations involving Ghegs.

    Distance to: I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    5.12415847 French_Provence
    5.43453770 Italian_Veneto
    5.56891372 Italian_Piedmont
    6.91223553 Italian_Friuli
    7.23040801 Italian_Liguria
    7.50322597 Italian_Trentino
    7.63498527 Italian_Lombardy
    7.66717679 Italian_Emilia
    7.95719800 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    8.92562603 Swiss_Italian
    9.82746661 Portuguese
    9.86850039 Spanish_Extremadura
    10.24896092 Italian_Tuscany
    10.95161175 Spanish_Galicia
    11.07736882 Swiss_French
    11.18624602 Austrian_Tyrol
    11.19579385 Spanish_Catalonia
    11.31314722 Spanish_Murcia
    11.36757230 Spanish_Andalusia
    11.75111910 Italian_Romagna
    11.85622200 Spanish_Castile-León
    12.05249767 Spanish_Valencia
    12.38313369 Italian_Umbria
    12.63928795 Spanish_Castilla-La_Mancha
    12.65749975 French_South
    Illyrian in Croatia and Slovenia are not all Illyrians. Of course you know that, but want to keep bullshitting. We still have no Z638 Illyrians.

    And we went over this. Albanians are still closer to Croatian Iron Age dude, than they are to Bulgarian Iron Age, which they have almost nothing to do with.

  20. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The evidence for a Latinised Illyrian people in North Albania can be found in placenames like:


    Kashnjet <- Castanetum
    Kallmet <- Calametum
    Qerret <- Ceretum
    Laç <- Latio
    Vinjall <- Vinealis


    Etc.


    But what happened to these Latin speaking Illyrians?


    There are indications that at least some of these Illyrians were assimilated by the Proto-Albanians.


    This might mean Central Ghegs and Northwest Ghegs possibly have an Illyrian component not present in Tosks and Northeast Ghegs.



    Can someone ban this dude from posting random pictures. It's spamming all these threads, no one is reading it, and he even misquotes the people in the actual books to lie.

  21. #896
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Illyrian in Croatia and Slovenia are not all Illyrians. Of course you know that, but want to keep bullshitting. We still have no Z638 Illyrians.

    .
    yes they are from late bronze-age to early iron-age when they became celtinized due to celts moving south from central and southern Germany

  22. #897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Albanians are autosomally better modelled as mainly Iron Age Thracians + obvious Slavic input
    And by the way. Here is your suggestion. Add some "Ukranian-like" DNA to Iron Age Thracians, and you end up in no man's land. Nothing to do with Albanians.



    Bulgarian Iron Age Thracians are far too eastern shifted already. You add more Slavic DNA, and that you get absolutely nothing.

    You lost. Give it up. Albanians are obviously some "Mycenean-like" DNA + Slavic.

  23. #898
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    We've seen Greeks and Albanians cluster for a reason. These Dacian/Thracian detractors are nothing but butthurt people trying to overwrite Albanian history. Dacians/Thracians are far too eastern shifted without Slavic input, to be ancestral to Albanians (or Greeks).

  24. #899
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    30-12-21
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c7a

    Ethnic group
    Neo-Illyrian
    Country: Kosovo



    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Illyrian in Croatia and Slovenia are not all Illyrians. Of course you know that, but want to keep bullshitting. We still have no Z638 Illyrians.

    And we went over this. Albanians are still closer to Croatian Iron Age dude, than they are to Bulgarian Iron Age, which they have almost nothing to do with.
    What's your problem? Those samples are clearly Illyrian. Check yourself in or something I see you posting utter non sense everywhere.

  25. #900
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Kosovo



    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The evidence for a Latinised Illyrian people in North Albania can be found in placenames like:


    Kashnjet <- Castanetum
    Kallmet <- Calametum
    Qerret <- Ceretum
    Laç <- Latio
    Vinjall <- Vinealis


    Etc.


    But what happened to these Latin speaking Illyrians?


    There are indications that at least some of these Illyrians were assimilated by the Proto-Albanians.


    This might mean Central Ghegs and Northwest Ghegs possibly have an Illyrian component not present in Tosks and Northeast Ghegs.



    I am from Central and East Kosovo which is considered "north east Geg" which i personally find misleading as our dialect is very different from let's say Presheve Albanians or other supposedly North East Geg areas. The Prishtina valley has also a higher South Illyrian patrilineage survival than West or South Kosovo for instance.

    Goga is by the way a very common Aromanian surname it is also present among South Albanians.

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