Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Johane Derite]

If proto-Albanian speakers had been present in Durrës since the pre-Roman era and known it since it had the form /Durrakio-/, the form in Albanian today would be **Dúrrëq.


Instead, today's form Durrës fits an entry into Proto-Albanian from a later Latin. */Dúrratso-/

 

[torzio]

I'll post this here as well;
"While these major population movements can be traced in recorded sources, the much more common internal migrations of smaller groups (extended families) were barely noted in Ottoman sources. They are attested in reports of local Catholic clergymen to the Congregatio de propaganda fide (established in Rome in 1622), especially when people were moving towards the Adriatic coast where the Catholic Church had preserved parts of its organizational net-work. One has to distinguish between seasonal migration of herdsmen between summer and winter pastures, and permanent emigration. The latter was prompted by economic pressure (bad harvests) and often by blood feuds, which forced people to leave because they felt threatened by acts of revenge. Most of these minor movements originated in the mountains of central and northern Albania and were directed both to the West (Adriatic coast) and the east (Kosovo, western Macedonia). The multi-layered Albanian dialects in western Macedonia demonstrate that Albanians had immigrated in different stages into an area that was inhabited by Albanians since antiquity. In Kosovo, the Albanian population consisted equally of resident Albanians and newcomers from central and northern Albania."

- The Routledge Handbook of Balkan and Southeast Europe

waste of time bringing up medieval and renaissance times for linguistic purposes ..............have you got anything earlier ?

 

[Excine]

waste of time bringing up medieval and renaissance times for linguistic purposes ..............have you got anything earlier ?

Do you not understand that antiquity usually refers to a period BEFORE the Middle Ages?

 

[enter_tain]

If proto-Albanian speakers had been present in Durrës since the pre-Roman era and known it since it had the form /Durrakio-/, the form in Albanian today would be **Dúrrëq.


Instead, today's form Durrës fits an entry into Proto-Albanian from a later Latin. */Dúrratso-/

Here to debunk your bullshit propaganda all day.

The "y"/"u" in Dyrrahion is the early Doric form, because Byzantine Greek renders it as "i". But the Albanian and the Latin evolved independently from the early form similar to the Doric loanword, and it's not borrowed from the Byzantines. As Demiraj shows, the Albanian is not borrowed from the Latin because the vowel stresses are entirely different

"The modern Albanian name evolved independently from the parent language of Albanian around the same period of the post-Roman era in the first centuries AD as the difference in stress in the two toponyms (first syllable in Albanian, second in Italian) highlights"

Again, Matzinger is obsessed with suffixes that are approximated/exonyms. All "ons" are Hellenisms that don't exist in other languages and in Latin it's "um". Dyrrahion/Dyrrahium.

 

[Johane Derite]

If proto-Albanian speakers had been present in Durrës since the pre-Roman era and known it since it had the form /Durrakio-/, the form in Albanian today would be **Dúrrëq.


Instead, today's form Durrës fits an entry into Proto-Albanian from a later Latin. */Dúrratso-/

This is a particularly simple one to understand:

The /kh/ in dyrrachium would not become /s/ in Albanian as it is in Durrës and so this means Durrës is not a development of the pre-roman form, but rather of the latin development /Durratso-/.

/Ki/ did not become /ts/ in Albanian as we have examples from Albanian. faqe from roman. facia (c in latin is pronounced K) so we know that Durratsio is not an Albanian development, and that this toponym only entered the proto-Albanian vocabulary at this point.

 

[Johane Derite]

The two earliest Albanian language placenames we know of are Mati, which is documented around ~400s AD, and Kruja, which is documented in 879AD.


This means we should expect proto-Albanian speakers to have at the least been in these regions since the ~400s AD.

Since the form of Durrës requires mediation from Durratso, a late latin form, the proto-Albanians could not have learnt this toponym much earlier than 400s AD (Matzinger) as Durrës was an important economic centre and would have been an important
point of reference, so it is not probable that Proto-Albanians were in Mat living for far earlier and only learnt the toponym around the 400s when the late latin form had developed.

From this we can speculate a migration of proto-Albanian trasnhumance shepherds around the 200-300s into Mat region, probably from Dardanian regions.

 

[enter_tain]

You lack basic logic skills. Go back and learn what a subset is.

"Nis is Albanian, therefore Albanians originated in Nish." (Even though Nish was clearly originally a Celtic city, so Albanians didn't originate there)

"We know Albanian was spoken here in 400 AD, therefore it didn't exist before then."

I don't even what to say that. It's comical.

 

[enter_tain]

Btw, I did some digging on the "Alb/Arb" root. It looks like all Latin or Latin-derived documents (a few of the Byzantine ones) write it as "Alb" while all native Albanian and Greek sources use "Arb". Greeks use both Alvanos and Arvanite, and the "Alv" is Latin derived.

This is what I'm talking about being careful about foreign languages adopting names to their own sounds/grammar. "Albanus", "Alban" were very common names near/around Rome. Guys like Matzinger completely ignore that aspect and pretend exonyms are the native form.

 

[Johane Derite]

The two earliest Albanian language placenames we know of are Mati, which is documented around ~400s AD, and Kruja, which is documented in 879AD.


This means we should expect proto-Albanian speakers to have at the least been in these regions since the ~400s AD.

Since the form of Durrës requires mediation from Durratso, a late latin form, the proto-Albanians could not have learnt this toponym much earlier than 400s AD (Matzinger) as Durrës was an important economic centre and would have been an important
point of reference, so it is not probable that Proto-Albanians were in Mat living for far earlier and only learnt the toponym around the 400s when the late latin form had developed.

From this we can speculate a migration of proto-Albanian trasnhumance shepherds around the 200-300s into Mat region, probably from Dardanian regions.

This region of course matches more or less with the early Albanopolis region and the tribe "Albanoi" that was first mentioned by Ptolemy in 150AD, written in Greek.

Ptolemy doesn't actually claim the Albanoi as an illyrian tribe, he just lists them simply as "Albanoi" living in Macedonia (he lists the Taulantians separately from the Albanoi, in blue)

Matzinger writes that this was probably the earliest region that proto-Albanians settled in within Albania.

This would explain why the proto-Albanians would then adopt the name of "Arbëresh" (Albanensis), based on their region of settlement, in the same way the Slavic Strymonians called themselves after their settlement region in the Strymon.

 

[Johane Derite]

This region of course matches more or less with the early Albanopolis region and the tribe "Albanoi" that was first mentioned by Ptolemy in 150AD, written in Greek.

Ptolemy doesn't actually claim the Albanoi as an illyrian tribe, he just lists them simply as "Albanoi" living in Macedonia (he lists the Taulantians separately from the Albanoi, in blue)

Matzinger writes that this was probably the earliest region that proto-Albanians settled in within Albania.

This would explain why the proto-Albanians would then adopt the name of "Arbëresh" (Albanensis), based on their region of settlement, in the same way the Slavic Strymonians called themselves after their settlement region in the Strymon.

How do we know then that the proto-Albanians weren't simply some of those Albanoi living in an enclave? Well, they would have known Durrës from a far earlier age, and today Durrës would be Durrëq in Albanian. Likewise, this is far too west for the shared vocabulary between romanian and Albanian in terms of both Latin and non-Latin.

Therefore the proto-Albanians must have moved into Albanopolis region and begun to self-identify with this region like the Slavic Strymonians.

 

[Hawk]

As for Kelmendasi, and his Rrenjet masters trying to spread propaganda.

First and foremost claiming that there are multiple Berishas completely unrelated to each other is a sneaky frame projection they are trying to do, Berisha in Muhurr were extremelly small, Berisha in Pogradec if they even existed which i am doubtful of probably adopted that name as some Gypsies adopted the surname during Middle Ages since during those times Berishas were the strongest Albanian clan. The common knowledge is that the core and original Berisha is the one from Puke.

As for Sopi, they most likely migrated from somewhere near Berishas, there is some Sopi Gjinolli who claim they originate in Fierze, a village very close to Berishas. It is very likely that early on they migrated in Kukes and Topojan initially and then massively in Kosov and mostly in Nish, Toplic, Vranje and Presheve where from all Albanian clans they were the dominant ones in those areas.

In my opinion, Sop/Sopoti/Sopron is a Slavic word. They most likely got this name by a placename they lived by and they got identified by it.

 

[enter_tain]

How do we know then that the proto-Albanians weren't simply some of those Albanoi living in an enclave? Well, they would have known Durrës from a far earlier age, and today Durrës would be Durrëq in Albanian. Likewise, this is far too west for the shared vocabulary between romanian and Albanian in terms of both Latin and non-Latin.

Therefore the proto-Albanians must have moved into Albanopolis region and begun to self-identify with this region like the Slavic Strymonians.

Yeah we know the Albanoi aren't Albanians because Durres should be Durreq.

Every week it's something else with you. First, Albanians came there during the 9th century. Now it's 3rd century, but they "adopted" the name from the actual Albanoi. So the Albanoi disappeared, and some random ghost population that is identical to northern Greeks, came in and took their name.

Anyone who follows any of your posts knows you're a fraud. Nothing you say makes sense. You contradict yourself with every post.

 

[torzio]

This is a particularly simple one to understand:

The /kh/ in dyrrachium would not become /s/ in Albanian as it is in Durrës and so this means Durrës is not a development of the pre-roman form, but rather of the latin development /Durratso-/.

/Ki/ did not become /ts/ in Albanian as we have examples from Albanian. faqe from roman. facia (c in latin is pronounced K) so we know that Durratsio is not an Albanian development, and that this toponym only entered the proto-Albanian vocabulary at this point.

Durres was known as

Epidamnos/Epidamnus was more commonly used among Ancient Greek authors, it was a Greek town created by migrating Corinthian Greeks circa 700BC, its name was changed to Dyrrhachion/Dyrrhachium.[14] by the Romans in 220BC

 

[Johane Derite]

Neither Epidamnos nor Dyrrachion are proto-Albanian toponyms.

Dyrrachion is a pure greek toponym that has been known since antiquity. It is made from the compound dys + rrakhia (bad surf).

There is simply no doubt about it that a late romance Durratso is the source of Albanian. Durrës, and not the earlier pre Roman version. This is also the source of Slavic. Drač.

This change from ki to ts could not have happened in proto-Albanian, but in a romance language, i.e. a local romanised illyrian language.

This means proto-Albanians learnt this toponym from romance speakers of the region. If proto-Albanians were just locals the ki would simply have become q in Albanian, as proto-Albanian kakio became albanian. keq, latin facia became albanian. faqe, etc.

There really is no way around it, for all linguists in academia this is as obvious as 1 + 1 = 2

 

[enter_tain]

Neither Epidamnos nor Dyrrachion are proto-Albanian toponyms.

Dyrrachion is a pure greek toponym that has been known since antiquity. It is made from the compound dys + rrakhia (bad surf).

There is simply no doubt about it that a late romance Durratso is the source of Albanian. Durrës, and not the earlier pre Roman version. This is also the source of Slavic. Drač.

This change from ki to ts could not have happened in proto-Albanian, but in a romance language, i.e. a local romanised illyrian language.

This means proto-Albanians learnt this toponym from romance speakers of the region. If proto-Albanians were just locals the ki would simply have become q in Albanian, as proto-Albanian kakio became albanian. keq, latin facia became albanian. faqe, etc.

There really is no way around it, for all linguists in academia this is as obvious as 1 + 1 = 2

Yes, why don't you answer the etymology of Epidamnus. Go ahead.

Etymologically, Epidamnos may be related to Proto-Albanian *dami (cub, young animal, young bull) > dem (modern Albanian) as proposed by linguist Eqrem Çabej.^[13]

And that goes for the Taulanti/Dallandyshe translated by Greeks, Ulqin, Delminium, Brindisi. All named after names of animals in Albanian.

 

[Illyria]

Dimallum, ancient southern Illyrian toponym, today Dimale, in Albanian:

The toponym belongs to the southeast Dalmatian onomastic area of Illyrian.^[7] It is a compound of di + mal. The root mal – is reflected in many ancient Balkan (Illyrian or Thracian) toponyms such as Malontum, Maloventum, Malontina, Dacia Maluensis etc.^[8][9] The Illyrian toponym Dimallum has been connected to Albanian di-male, meaning "two mountains", with the Proto-Albanian form of the second component reconstructed as mol-no.^[9] The Illyrian reconstruction of the first component has been rendered as *d(ṷ)i-, 'two'. Therefore Dimale must have meant '(settlement between) two mountains' in Illyrian.^[1]

Looks like we didn't learn this toponym from any foreigners, it's outside of Arber region and it's more south than Lezhe, Durres, etc, and below the Jiricek line.

The town of Ulqin doesn't seem to be learned from foreigners either, it's connected to the Proto-Alb word for wolf. Also outside of Arber region, more north west of the Jiricek line

Early historian Livy (59 BC–AD 17) mentioned it,^[10] as did Pliny the Elder (23–79),^[11] who mentioned it as Olcinium, its old name Colchinium, "founded by [settlers from] Colchis" (Olchinium quod antea Colchinium dictum est a Colchis conditum).^[11]Ptolemy (90–168) mentions the city as Greek Oulkinion (Ουλκίνιον).^[12] Although the ancient writers preferred a connection with Cholchis, the name of the settlement appears to be connected with the Albanian word ujk or ulk (meaning wolf in English),^[13][14] from Proto-Albanian*(w)ulka, from Proto-Indo-European*wĺ̥kʷos.^[15] The name, through Late (Vulgar) Roman, became Middle LatinUlcinium, Italian: Dulcigno (pronounced [dulˈtʃiɲɲo]), Slavic: Ulcinj, Albanian: Ulqin or Ulqini and Turkish: Ülgün.

 

[Dibran]

As for Kelmendasi, and his Rrenjet masters trying to spread propaganda.

First and foremost claiming that there are multiple Berishas completely unrelated to each other is a sneaky frame projection they are trying to do, Berisha in Muhurr were extremelly small, Berisha in Pogradec if they even existed which i am doubtful of probably adopted that name as some Gypsies adopted the surname during Middle Ages since during those times Berishas were the strongest Albanian clan. The common knowledge is that the core and original Berisha is the one from Puke.

As for Sopi, they most likely migrated from somewhere near Berishas, there is some Sopi Gjinolli who claim they originate in Fierze, a village very close to Berishas. It is very likely that early on they migrated in Kukes and Topojan initially and then massively in Kosov and mostly in Nish, Toplic, Vranje and Presheve where from all Albanian clans they were the dominant ones in those areas.

In my opinion, Sop/Sopoti/Sopron is a Slavic word. They most likely got this name by a placename they lived by and they got identified by it.

First off Kelmendasi is nothing but a stand up gentleman. So I'm not sure why you're attacking him. He's also been very neutral regarding both projects.

Regarding this Berisha issue. I'm not sure where this assumption that the Berisha of Diber and Librazhd have to be related to the Berisha of Puka comes from?

I think there's no question the E-V13 Puka Berisha are the biggest and most widespread fis with that name and make up the overwhelming majority of Berisha. Of that there is no doubt.

The actual Berisha of Dibra who have historical links with those affiliated with Skanderbeg were tested and have nothing to do with Berisha of Puka and are not even E-V13. Historically I don't think there is any evidence even linking the Berisha of Diber to the Berisha of Puka anyway.

As for the Berisha of Librazhd I'm not sure if they were tested(at least to my knowledge). Maybe they were and I didn't know.

Regardless, there wasn't anything false in what he said. Regardless of the insignificant size of the other Berisha in comparison to those of Puka.

 

[Hawk]

First off Kelmendasi is nothing but a stand up gentleman. So I'm not sure why you're attacking him. He's also been very neutral regarding both projects.
Regarding this Berisha issue. I'm not sure where this assumption that the Berisha of Diber and Librazhd have to be related to the Berisha of Puka comes from?
I think there's no question the E-V13 Puka Berisha are the biggest and most widespread fis with that name and make up the overwhelming majority of Berisha. Of that there is no doubt.
The actual Berisha of Dibra who have historical links with those affiliated with Skanderbeg were tested and have nothing to do with Berisha of Puka and are not even E-V13. Historically I don't think there is any evidence even linking the Berisha of Diber to the Berisha of Puka anyway.
As for the Berisha of Librazhd I'm not sure if they were tested(at least to my knowledge). Maybe they were and I didn't know.
Regardless, there wasn't anything false in what he said. Regardless of the insignificant size of the other Berisha in comparison to those of Puka.

The point is no one has ever heard of any Berish in Librazhd, them being Berisha is equally to some Gypsies/Roma having the surname Berisha. Trying to sell it like hey this surname seems to be carried by completely different people is frame projection propaganda, when logic dictates otherwise. The only core Berisha known is that from Puke/Dukagjine and various different authors have written about them.

 

[Johane Derite]

Dimallum, ancient southern Illyrian toponym, today Dimale, in Albanian:



Looks like we didn't learn this toponym from any foreigners, it's outside of Arber region and it's more south than Lezhe, Durres, etc, and below the Jiricek line.

The town of Ulqin doesn't seem to be learned from foreigners either, it's connected to the Proto-Alb word for wolf. Also outside of Arber region, more north west of the Jiricek line

The middle latin name for Ulqin was Ulcinium which plausibly would have become Ulqin in Albanian if it entered at this state. So this cannot necessarily be use to argue a pre-roman knowledge of this toponym in the proto-Albanian vocab.

The toponym Dimallum didn't survive into any modern Albanian toponyms though, so it was lost, and cannot be used to argue any continuity of proto-Albanian speakers in that region.

As for the etymology, I actually agree that it is most probably cognate with Albanian Mal, but so is Dacian Maluensis, so this doesn't mean it is a proto-Albanian toponym.

If you are going to argue Dimallum means Illyrian was Albanian, then you have to argue Dacia Maluensis means Dacian was Albanian.

Single cognates are not enough to establish descendance from a language, it is the phonological system which does that.

Also, the earliest recordings of Ulqin are Oulkinion and Olcinium. Proto-Albanian should have been just Ulkinium.

The Oulkinion has been just to argue that this is a case of Illyrian /l/ giving /ul/ ( remember, l, n, m, r in Illyrian gave ul, un, um, ur, unlike in Albanian) hence this variation with /ou/

Regardless, the toponym of Ulqin being related to wolf is just one possible etymology, there is another that it is related to uelk- (wet), obviously referring to the sea.

As we get closer in the tree to pinpointing the proto-Albanians, we should expect to find more and more cognates that are shared, but we cannot stop and be satisfied with just finding related language, but the exact dialect that gave proto-Albanian.

 

[Dibran]

The point is no one has ever heard of any Berish in Librazhd, them being Berisha is equally to some Gypsies/Roma having the surname Berisha. Trying to sell it like hey this surname seems to be carried by completely different people is frame projection propaganda, when logic dictates otherwise. The only core Berisha known is that from Puke/Dukagjine and various different authors have written about them.

But the surname Berisha is carried by different people/families/clans. No where did Kelmendasi play devils advocate by stating something like "real Berisha are this line or that". He stated a simple fact. There are unrelated Berisha. Now if he said the Berisha of Puka should be the same as those from Diber, you may have a point. There is no where in any history book that everyone who is a Berisha has to be from Puka or has to be E-V13. We can only say for certain those Berisha of Puka or those claiming to come from them MUST be E-V13 as this is the biggest Berisha fis/clan there is with that name. Most famous for sure.

As far as the Berisha fis of Diber mentioned with Skanderbeg, they are a tribe their own. And whilst many have theoretically tried to connect them to those of Puka, there is no actual evidence of that and now Y-DNA testing also confirms that they are not in fact related. Claiming those who have the surname Berisha that aren't from Puka is "equivalent to gypsies/roma" having that surname is extremely childish and insulting. Just because the Berisha of Puka are the largest and most popular with that surname, does not make other smaller fis with this surname Gypsies or insignificant.

I'm not sure what the etymology of Berisha is, but one would expect like "Gjergj" or "Gjon" that many can bare this name without any relation to the other.

It just so happens that those of Puka are the ones who are the most famous for it. And perhaps the Berisha mentioned in Latin records which would make sense.

I still don't see how he is being slimey or mischievous for stating simple facts.