Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[mount123]

Have not read the paper in a long time, much less the auAnalysis, which for the paper was trash tier.
But the more robust part of the analysis, IIRC, equivalated L283 and V13 with the paleo-Balkanic local complex. And also identified around the 9th century in Kuline Slavic autosomal introgresion with I2a1-Dinaric, and earlier than that during Impeprial Rome, Eastern Ancestry (Whether of Anatolian or ME autosomal was not obvious since the sample they used as proxy was a yet unpublished Marathon sample). There was even a West Afrian in there somewher , quite the adventurer the fella.

I mean the Roman Empire was quite big so does not really surprise me. What a bummer. Papers like these make me angry just like the low resolution of the J2b-L283s in the Daunian paper. I kind of have developed a slightly irrational fear that low resolution samples might also be present in the Southern Arc paper

Also, I2a1-Slavic*

[Archetype0ne]

As a side note wanted to chime in on the eastern ancestry that was being debated upthread.
For the most part Ottomans did not resettle Albanian speaking regions, and as such not only do Albanian have very limited Ottoman ancestry if any, but also people that have Ottoman traditions and legends about their origin often times get disproven by genetics in the region.
The fact remains though that an Eastern admixture event happened much earlier during Imperial times, which signature can be noticed using modern amateur calculators.

As an example I plot quite Northern, which is surprising given my maternal line is fully south Albanian going 4-5 generations. The weird part is that on some calculators I can have as much as 15-20% PPNB* ancestry! While also having up to 20% Baltic! That is quite a paradox. I have given my opinion over my admixture in various threads here and over at anthrogenica. One way to look at it is that is a simplification/artifact of the calculator and an overfitting model. Another way to look at it is that if these are not just placeholders facilitating an overfit, then logically a 20% Northern Pull and a 20% Southern Pull would leave me in place

*So the real issue is about having exact definitions without which any argument is in vain. What we consider Eastern or even Middle Eastern Admixture? Anatolian Neolithic or Pre Pottery Neolithic? If so that admixture has very little to do with modern populations in the East/Middle east.

[mount123]

As a side note wanted to chime in on the eastern ancestry that was being debated upthread.
For the most part Ottomans did not resettle Albanian speaking regions, and as such not only do Albanian have very limited Ottoman ancestry if any, but also people that have Ottoman traditions and legends about their origin often times get disproven by genetics in the region.
The fact remains though that an Eastern admixture event happened much earlier during Imperial times, which signature can be noticed using modern amateur calculators.

As an example I plot quite Northern, which is surprising given my maternal line is fully south Albanian going 4-5 generations. The weird part is that on some calculators I can have as much as 15-20% PPNB* ancestry! While also having up to 20% Baltic! That is quite a paradox. I have given my opinion over my admixture in various threads here and over at anthrogenica. One way to look at it is that is a simplification/artifact of the calculator and an overfitting model. Another way to look at it is that if these are not just placeholders facilitating an overfit, then logically a 20% Northern Pull and a 20% Southern Pull would leave me in place

*So the real issue is about having exact definitions without which any argument is in vain. What we consider Eastern or even Middle Eastern Admixture? Anatolian Neolithic or Pre Pottery Neolithic? If so that admixture has very little to do with modern populations in the East/Middle east.

That troll quite clearly meant it in a derogatory way so modern Middle Eastern DNA that entered via the Ottomans.

This is quite interesting my father gets only 14.87% Baltic on calculators I am on the low 15% site. There was this post on anthrogenica recently where supposedly some Mirditor had only 9% scratching on that 10 percentile. We also get more North Atlantic than the reference population for Kosovo. We are from Ulpiana by the way so Rrrafshi Prishtines but the South of it.

I mean the admixture calculators are not always legit.

Edit: the slightly North West pull in some Gegs is quite interesting given the ancient Illyrian auDNA we know of. I also get more IA West Balkans in calculators.

[Archetype0ne]

That troll quite clearly meant it in a derogatory way so modern Middle Eastern DNA that entered via the Ottomans.

This is quite interesting my father gets only 14.87% Baltic on calculators I am on the low 15% site. There was this post on anthrogenica recently where supposedly some Mirditor had only 9% scratching on that 10 percentile. We also get more North Atlantic than the reference population for Kosovo. We are from Ulpiana by the way so Rrrafshi Prishtines but the South of it.

I mean the admixture calculators are not always legit.

Yes it might be a calculator relic. Think I also posted in that thread.
But also on such calculators that might lack the appropriate pops to be more accurate (which in itself is quite a subjective matter) 15-22% Baltic is quite common form Albanians from Malesi / Male te Zi. So normally 9% is bound to happen as an outlier given a normal distribution.

[Dibran]

As a side note wanted to chime in on the eastern ancestry that was being debated upthread.
For the most part Ottomans did not resettle Albanian speaking regions, and as such not only do Albanian have very limited Ottoman ancestry if any, but also people that have Ottoman traditions and legends about their origin often times get disproven by genetics in the region.
The fact remains though that an Eastern admixture event happened much earlier during Imperial times, which signature can be noticed using modern amateur calculators.

As an example I plot quite Northern, which is surprising given my maternal line is fully south Albanian going 4-5 generations. The weird part is that on some calculators I can have as much as 15-20% PPNB* ancestry! While also having up to 20% Baltic! That is quite a paradox. I have given my opinion over my admixture in various threads here and over at anthrogenica. One way to look at it is that is a simplification/artifact of the calculator and an overfitting model. Another way to look at it is that if these are not just placeholders facilitating an overfit, then logically a 20% Northern Pull and a 20% Southern Pull would leave me in place

*So the real issue is about having exact definitions without which any argument is in vain. What we consider Eastern or even Middle Eastern Admixture? Anatolian Neolithic or Pre Pottery Neolithic? If so that admixture has very little to do with modern populations in the East/Middle east.

Seems alot of Albanians claimed Ottoman origin because it brought benefits within the empire. Nice privilege and opportunity etc. But the problem to also consider is that much of what was Ottoman was actually native Balkan.

The Ottomans like the Bulgars were a minority of actual asiatic origin that gave their name and rule to wider local tribes. Only difference is Ottomans imposed their language and Bulgars took Slavic.

In regards to the area of Koxhaxhik in Macedonia, we have a guy who is a typical Albanian YDNA despite the region largely identifying as Turk/Torbesh. No one really left there though as I understand it.

[Fustan]

Pretty obvious Ottoman or Middle Eastern family legends are just (a pathetic tbh) way to elevate the status of a family, in order to make it more special, unique, and exotic. I don't think Aspurg was completely serious in everything he wrote, he was obviously trolling a lot, but the problem is that he wasn't even funny so he just came across as stupid.

[mount123]

Yes it might be a calculator relic. Think I also posted in that thread.
But also on such calculators that might lack the appropriate pops to be more accurate (which in itself is quite a subjective matter) 15-22% Baltic is quite common form Albanians from Malesi / Male te Zi. So normally 9% is bound to happen as an outlier given a normal distribution.

Perhaps some geographic or cultural constructs favored some genetic isolates. I have actually also seen 11% of Baltic in another Gheg but don't recall what area he was from.

[Archetype0ne]

Seems alot of Albanians claimed Ottoman origin because it brought benefits within the empire. Nice privilege and opportunity etc. But the problem to also consider is that much of what was Ottoman was actually native Balkan.
The Ottomans like the Bulgars were a minority of actual asiatic origin that gave their name and rule to wider local tribes. Only difference is Ottomans imposed their language and Bulgars took Slavic.
In regards to the area of Koxhaxhik in Macedonia, we have a guy who is a typical Albanian YDNA despite the region largely identifying as Turk/Torbesh. No one really left there though as I understand it.

Yes. It gets quite confusing especially with Torbesh / Sherli / Muslim Macedonians who claim Ottoman/ Turkish descent. If one can not find meaningful Ottoman / Turkish ancestry in them, finding such in Albanophone population is a very long shot. Leaving this paper here again, as it really paints it in quite black and white terms https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31351212/

[mount123]

Yes. It gets quite confusing especially with Torbesh / Sherli / Muslim Macedonians who claim Ottoman/ Turkish descent. If one can not find meaningful Ottoman / Turkish ancestry in them, finding such in Albanophone population is a very long shot. Leaving this paper here again, as it really paints it in quite black and white terms https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31351212/

I like how these yugo "scientists" just spit out macro haplogroups instead of subclades in the opening letter or completely ignore the ethnic affiliation component. Saying just I2 instead of I2a-Slav gives of the wishful impression that it does not have anything to do with the R1a Slavic subclades. Major cringe vibes here.

[Dibran]

Yes it might be a calculator relic. Think I also posted in that thread.
But also on such calculators that might lack the appropriate pops to be more accurate (which in itself is quite a subjective matter) 15-22% Baltic is quite common form Albanians from Malesi / Male te Zi. So normally 9% is bound to happen as an outlier given a normal distribution.

Are you referring to K13?

Alot of these calculators produce wonky results. Also, the Torbesh sample group are only 4 individuals who are likely of Albanian extraction as they plot closer to Albanians than many Albanians do. Someone also posted a Mirditor sample on anthro and he comes up as North Italian mostly with most Albanians having large distances.

My guess is he's just an outlier.


Distance to: Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
3.63917573 Italian_Lazio
3.74977333 Italian_Marche
4.10082918 Italian_Umbria
5.17549998 Italian_Romagna
5.50610570 Greek_Western_Thrace
6.82568678 Italian_Tuscany
7.14372452 Italian_Abruzzo
7.51382725 Italian_Basilicata
7.70085710 Italian_Molise
8.22253002 Greek_Western_Macedonia
8.27516767 Italian_Apulia
8.33086430 Greek_Eastern_Macedonia
8.84068436 Greek_Athens
8.91531828 Greek_Cyclades
8.94280717 Italian_Emilia
9.04000553 Albanian_Tosk
9.25234024 Greek_Central
9.33296845 Italian_Sicily
9.39639292 French_Corsica
9.54388810 Greek_Andros
9.57077975 Greek_Thessaly
9.58834709 Albanian
9.65135742 Greek_Peloponnese
9.80386148 Greek_Western
9.92139607 Torbesh

[Dibran]

Pretty obvious Ottoman or Middle Eastern family legends are just (a pathetic tbh) way to elevate the status of a family, in order to make it more special, unique, and exotic. I don't think Aspurg was completely serious in everything he wrote, he was obviously trolling a lot, but the problem is that he wasn't even funny so he just came across as stupid.

Maybe he had Aspergers lmao

[Archetype0ne]

That has been a criticism for a lot of geneticists far and wide. I think the paper is quite decent itself. I tend to give benefit of the doubt here, as from what I gather for the scope of testing their hypotheses, low coverage testing / analysis was enough. What grinds my gears is when ancient samples are tested at coverages/levels orders of magnitude outside their scope. Like if one is testing an Iron age sample at a 22,000 year subclade level. What is one even supposed to do with that xD?

---

On a completely unrelated note. I am starting to give some aspects of Derites hypothesis more attention.
So far we have samples from BA - IA from the Balkans which could be quite representative even for the south and east (hypothetical).
They look modern north Italian. Then we had the Kuline samples which give an indication as to the Slavic admixture. But what does not add up to me is that the shift modern Albanians have vis a vis said BA - IA samples does not apear Kuline derived? Somewhere between Imperial and 9th century, some other eastern (maybe Slavic like group) likely shifted us away marginally from North Italy like autosomal (despite us still plotting close to that).






Okay. Rather does not look like a Slavic shift, maybe Avars? Huns? I have not had a chance to play around with the Avar and Hungary paper coordinates to see if a shift akin to the local L283 and E-V13 Avars and conquering Huns would fit the model.
Alans, Goths or something else with a higher CHG could also be the culprit?
When I do the same analysis trying to estimate my slavic component, and using Avar Szolad, DEU, or Early Medieval Czech Slavic as a proxy, usually I get better fits with VA Smolensk, and VA Scandinavians? No idea what the VA stands for, I initially thought it meant Varangian but could not confirm.

PS: The methodology here is very shaky. Since the assumption could be wrong.
1. This could have been many minor shifts rather than one.
2. Higher individual CHG in the coordinates, could take the form of said NE samples in AC-BC calculation.
So take this with a grain of salt.

[mount123]

On a completely unrelated note. I am starting to give some aspects of Derites hypothesis more attention.
So far we have samples from BA - IA from the Balkans which could be quite representative even for the south and east (hypothetical).
They look modern north Italian. Then we had the Kuline samples which give an indication as to the Slavic admixture. But what does not add up to me is that the shift modern Albanians have vis a vis said BA - IA samples does not apear Kuline derived? Somewhere between Imperial and 9th century, some other eastern (maybe Slavic like group) likely shifted us away marginally from North Italy like autosomal (despite us still plotting close to that).



Okay. Rather does not look like a Slavic shift, maybe Avars? Huns? I have not had a chance to play around with the Avar and Hungary paper coordinates to see if a shift akin to the local L283 and E-V13 Avars and conquering Huns would fit the model.
Alans, Goths or something else with a higher CHG could also be the culprit?
When I do the same analysis trying to estimate my slavic component, and using Avar Szolad, DEU, or Early Medieval Czech Slavic as a proxy, usually I get better fits with VA Smolensk, and VA Scandinavians? No idea what the VA stands for, I initially thought it meant Varangian but could not confirm.

PS: The methodology here is very shaky. Since the assumption could be wrong.
1. This could have been many minor shifts rather than one.
2. Higher individual CHG in the coordinates, could take the form of said NE samples in AC-BC calculation.
So take this with a grain of salt.

IA West Balkans being higher in certain regions of the Gheg populated areas to me is also an important indicator. And if we would go by Derites hypotheses I would assume that Illyrians did not receive a direct Eastern shift but did so after mixing with whatever the other group was which by the way dominates the modern Albanian genome.

[mount123]

IA West Balkans being higher in certain regions of the Gheg populated areas to me is also an important indicator. And if we would go by Derites hypotheses I would assume that Illyrians did not receive a direct Eastern shift but did so after mixing with whatever the other group was which by the way dominates the modern Albanian genome.

He calls the other group Proto-Albanians based on Matzingers linguistic assumptions and also given aDNA.

[Archetype0ne]

Oh I am not talking about Albanian ethnogenesis here. Whatever group was East Balkans West Balkans was not "Albanian" till it mixed into a soup that still exists today. Hence I find these conversations such as the title of this thread petty. As languages are not linear, rather they get mixed in waves and are a synthesis of various elements that become relevant in day to day life. Hence I do not think conversations such as was E-V13 or L283(Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians yada yada) the source of Albanian are worth even talking about. My point was rather trying to connect the autosomal dots from the few samples we have from the region spread over the centuries.

I have no doubt in my mind that ancestors of modern Albanians lived in the Komani complex. And for me even the foreign/exotic element in Komani Derite was pointing out (2/25 skulls I know, not even YDNA) might have been an important ingredient in the genesis of Albanians as we know them. So gotta give credit to that observation, as from what I am seeing using these amateur calculators in the amateur way I know, seems to corroborate such a narrative. Maybe you guys can double check the AC-BC calculator in vahaduo vis a vis the two samples I did for my coordinates, with your coordinates. Maybe I am just an outlier

@Dibran


K13 is quite limited. It gives me 18-19% Baltic. More interesting is the oracle to the right.

[Archetype0ne]

IA West Balkans being higher in certain regions of the Gheg populated areas to me is also an important indicator. And if we would go by Derites hypotheses I would assume that Illyrians did not receive a direct Eastern shift but did so after mixing with whatever the other group was which by the way dominates the modern Albanian genome.

Very interesting hypothesis. Also have a feeling its the right direction to investigate. Too drunk/tired rn to find the G25 for the Avar Hun Pannonian L283s and E-V13s and see if E-V13s had such a shift. But I think the paper itself created and denominated some of the clusters. IIRC L283 and E-V13s were in the Southern cluster. But maybe some of the E-V13s were also in the eastern cluster. Again, just maybe we can find a signal similar to what we see in the AC-BCs I posted.

[Illyria]

I upvoted this. Should have put a disclaimer or something on the end of my answer Since he was asking in regards to "bosh" we say thatë/thât which I am assuming you guys in Presheve say too.

My God. It all makes sense now. Hawk is from Presheva, Johane Derite's ancestors were from today's Serbia, just north of Kosovo. Of course they're pushing Daco-Thracian theory so hard and denying Illyrian-Albanian cognates lol. They want the Proto-Albanian homeland to be close to their own origins, near the Channeled Ware finds, and not in Albania or the Western Balkans

I remember just weeks ago, Hawk said something like, Thracians didn't have any interest in the poor Adriatic, and preferred the rich Aegean, and that E-V13 outnumbers J2b2 and R1b in Albanians because the Channeled Ware people were far more superior than the weaker Glasinac Mati people lmfao. I guess people gotta cope some how, but I don't know why they both jump to conclusions based on insecurity. There are many reasons that could explain why E-V13 is most common, but he likes that one best. Carlton Coon noted that Albanians above the Drin river were the tallest, strongest, most athletic, wide-shouldered and wide-jawed of all Albanians, Malsi E Madhe & Kukes are both 45%+ J2b2 lol. How could it be! When they are mixed with these weak Glasinac Mati Illyrians! We still have that upcoming paper that will make many clown theories fall flat

Every other day, one of them has to quote something about Channeled Ware or a Thracian-Albanian cognate, and say "It seems likely Proto-Albanian derived from Channeled Ware people who migrated into Albania" lol, Matzinger doesn't believe we are Thracian either, but any time an Illyrian-Albanian cognate is mentioned, Johane Derite is quick to quote him If Matzinger is such a genius, why are you pushing the Bessi-Phygrian theory if even he doesn't believe it lol. We must be from some other unattested ghost shepherding population that was Christianized that went into Albania, and no one noticed or recorded it lol.

[mount123]

Oh I am not talking about Albanian ethnogenesis here. Whatever group was East Balkans West Balkans was not "Albanian" till it mixed into a soup that still exists today. Hence I find these conversations such as the title of this thread petty. As languages are not linear, rather they get mixed in waves and are a synthesis of various elements that become relevant in day to day life. Hence I do not think conversations such as was E-V13 or L283(Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians yada yada) the source of Albanian are worth even talking about. My point was rather trying to connect the autosomal dots from the few samples we have from the region spread over the centuries.

I have no doubt in my mind that ancestors of modern Albanians lived in the Komani complex. And for me even the foreign/exotic element in Komani Derite was pointing out (2/25 skulls I know, not even YDNA) might have been an important ingredient in the genesis of Albanians as we know them. So gotta give credit to that observation, as from what I am seeing using these amateur calculators in the amateur way I know, seems to corroborate such a narrative. Maybe you guys can double check the AC-BC calculator in vahaduo vis a vis the two samples I did for my coordinates, with your coordinates. Maybe I am just an outlier

@Dibran


K13 is quite limited. It gives me 18-19% Baltic. More interesting is the oracle to the right.

I was just quoting Derite.

Wow that is very low North Atlantic my father gets ~26% and I get ~ 25% something. Your results seem to be more or less mainstream Albanian though.

[Illyria]

I also get high Baltic and North-Atlantic, just barely my highest scores lol. I do plot with a NW pull too. My autosomal was 96% Greece/Balkans, 4% Irish

North_Atlantic	21.93 Pct
Baltic	22.14 Pct
West_Med	20.49 Pct
West_Asian	9.41 Pct
East_Med	21 Pct
Red_Sea	3.85 Pct
South_Asian	-
East_Asian	-
Siberian	0.79 Pct
Amerindian	-
Oceanian	0.39 Pct

[mount123]

My God. It all makes sense now. Hawk is from Presheva, Johane Derite's ancestors were from today's Serbia, just north of Kosovo. Of course they're pushing Daco-Thracian theory so hard and denying Illyrian-Albanian cognates lol. They want the Proto-Albanian homeland to be close to their own origins, near the Channeled Ware finds, and not in Albania or the Western Balkans

I don't like personal insults against people to be honest. He was the only one that condemned the racist pseudo scientific remarks that Dushman user made against people from Kosovo. Being not in line with someone's hypotheses or assumptions is one thing verbal attacking is another thing.

Derite is a Muhaxher? We have a lot of them that settled in South and East Kosovo. They endured a lot of pain and atrocities on their way here.

[mount123]

I also get high Baltic and North-Atlantic, just barely my highest scores lol. I do plot with a NW pull too. My autosomal was 96% Greece/Balkans, 4% Irish

North_Atlantic	21.93 Pct
Baltic	22.14 Pct
West_Med	20.49 Pct
West_Asian	9.41 Pct
East_Med	21 Pct
Red_Sea	3.85 Pct
South_Asian	-
East_Asian	-
Siberian	0.79 Pct
Amerindian	-
Oceanian	0.39 Pct

The Baltic sets you East too my friend.

[Archetype0ne]

I was just quoting Derite.

Wow that is very low North Atlantic my father gets ~26% and I get ~ 25% something. Your results seem to be more or less mainstream Albanian though.

Not sure what the North Atlantic stands for tbh. Is it modern North Atlantic? Maybe I just have lower WHG.
But check that Amerindian at 1.6%

---

I see. But think about it. If the L283 samples from BA-IA were North Italian like. If modern Albanian admixture seems to be Eastern Shifted with a degree of higher CHG (was it Varangian, Alan, Hun, Avar, Slavic, whatever). Between Imperial period and today (question was it pre 9th century Kuline or after) proto*-Albanians could have shifted from something North Italian like (HRB BA/BGR IA) to modern Albanian autosomals through the mixture of L283, Z2103 with E-V13. Certainly E-V13 could be a good candidate, even as a second hand admixture. I don't know.

[Fustan]

Would be cool if someone could interpret my K13, I haven't looked into autosomal stuff in years.

[Dibran]

Oh I am not talking about Albanian ethnogenesis here. Whatever group was East Balkans West Balkans was not "Albanian" till it mixed into a soup that still exists today. Hence I find these conversations such as the title of this thread petty. As languages are not linear, rather they get mixed in waves and are a synthesis of various elements that become relevant in day to day life. Hence I do not think conversations such as was E-V13 or L283(Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians yada yada) the source of Albanian are worth even talking about. My point was rather trying to connect the autosomal dots from the few samples we have from the region spread over the centuries.
I have no doubt in my mind that ancestors of modern Albanians lived in the Komani complex. And for me even the foreign/exotic element in Komani Derite was pointing out (2/25 skulls I know, not even YDNA) might have been an important ingredient in the genesis of Albanians as we know them. So gotta give credit to that observation, as from what I am seeing using these amateur calculators in the amateur way I know, seems to corroborate such a narrative. Maybe you guys can double check the AC-BC calculator in vahaduo vis a vis the two samples I did for my coordinates, with your coordinates. Maybe I am just an outlier
@Dibran

K13 is quite limited. It gives me 18-19% Baltic. More interesting is the oracle to the right.

Have you tried running your K13 through Vahadu? More sample groups.
Admixture oracles aren't alwaya reliable. I get a huge southern pull so I get Sardinian and Peloponnese sometimes which is obviously hogwash. Iget like 60% IA Bulgaria which alot of these clowns try to use to claim Albanians have mostly Thracian admixture. Yet on PCA Bruzmi plot me, I was on the IA_West Balkan cline. Just white out my name.

[mount123]

I remember just weeks ago, Hawk said something like, Thracians didn't have any interest in the poor Adriatic, and preferred the rich Aegean, and that E-V13 outnumbers J2b2 and R1b in Albanians because the Channeled Ware people were far more superior than the weaker Glasinac Mati people lmfao. I guess people gotta cope some how, but I don't know why they both jump to conclusions based on insecurity. There are many reasons that could explain why E-V13 is most common, but he likes that one best. Carlton Coon noted that Albanians above the Drin river were the tallest, strongest, most athletic, wide-shouldered and wide-jawed of all Albanians, Malsi E Madhe & Kukes are both 45%+ J2b2 lol. How could it be! When they are mixed with these weak Glasinac Mati Illyrians! We still have that upcoming paper that will make many clown theories fall flat

I don't want to make any more comments on phenotypes last time I pointed out mine people went nuts (spoiler I am tall have dark blond hair and green eyes). I definitely do think that Illyrians are responsible for this in specific regions mine included (Ulpiana).

I am going to put a disclaimer here though since people can get quite cheeky here.