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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

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    Map to date, with the results of genetic analyzes of old haplogroups.

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...5085150826&z=6

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I did not read all because I just found it, http://www.academia.edu/2572082/The_invention_of_the_Slavic_fairytale
    but I found interesting.

    Sometimes, "ethnicity" is more linguistically defined and is mainly use as a tool for... territorial/political domination and ambitions of a few.
    Last edited by gidai; 14-01-19 at 16:44.

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    I am interested into seeing if hungarian, even daugh it is a uralic language, has retained a little bit of pannonian vocabules from the local pre-magyar people, because i think we could find some similarities, for instance: I heard a friend of mine, who is hungarian, saying to her mother via telephone something that i first recognized as an english bad word (pu**y) but that then when i asked her she told me that the world was "puszi" wich means kiss;
    In albanian Puthje is kiss, and so i started getting interested into this topic of common hungarian-albanian words, of course i didn't find much out there because i haven't yet deeply researched them but another characteristic and quite interesting one is this: in hungary they don't use "Police" or some similiar world for their police, while everyone else in europe does, they use Rendorszegg, the meaning of wich i asked this friend of mine again and she told me that it means litterally Order keepers, where Rendor is the world form public order while szegg is used to attach the meaning -keepers to the world Rendor.
    In albanian Rendi/Rend is oublic order.
    I don't know, tell me what you think about this, maybe pannonia was albanian speaking before the magyars and the romans arrived? who knows.
    Last edited by Gannicus; 22-08-19 at 20:58.

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    Where does the Albanian language come from VIDEO

    Thanks Daskale and thank you VODENKAThis is clear evidence of the acknowledgment of the Macedonian language by the Greek state. There is no disputing this.85 years later and Greece has amnesia, the Greek state has no minorities and 98 if its population is "Greek".

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    This answer on Quora is one of the best, logical, reasonable answer i have seen on this topic.

    Nobody truly knows, and those who say they do with absolute certainty are best ignored, because they’re probably speaking more out of some kind of agenda than out of sheer historical and linguistic interest.That said, I think it is quite plausible and even likely that the original territory where Proto-Albanian was once spoken also encompassed an area in or close present-day Kosovo (we can’t really be more precise than that considering the scarcity of evidences).
    There are several reasons I have read for the hypothesis that Proto-Albanian was spoken generally in area extending roughly from northeastern Albania to south Serbia:
    1) much of present-day Albania was mostly located in a part of the Roman Empire where Latin didn’t establish itself as the main lingua franca or even, eventually, mother tongue of a lot of people. However, modern Albanian is clearly a “semi-Romanized” language with a very, very significant influence from Latin since a very early age (some of the borrowings still show traces of the pronunciation of Classical Latin times, not the Late Antiquity or Early Medieval Late Latin). Conversely, for a language that neighbored Greek for such a long time, there are comparably few borrowings from Greek in Albanian. Hence, the most likely homeland of Proto-Albanian, or at least of the specific Proto-Albanian dialect that eventually became more successful and is at the basis of the modern Albanian dialects, was probably a bit more to the north.


    2) many of the early Ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian are apparently related to Northwestern Greek dialects, of which Macedonian could have been one, too. That confirms the position of Proto-Albanian north and east of the Aegean coast. There are also clues about the presence of Northwestern Greek dialects in Epirus, including parts of modern southern Albania, so the Proto-Albanian language could’ve neighbored these dialects just to their north, closer to the border with Kosovo.
    3) The rich Romance lexicon in Albanian is associated mostly with Eastern Romance (e.g. Romanian, Aromanian, etc.), which was probably initially spoken in a much larger area in the hinterland of the Balkans north of Macedonia, but it also has received a Western Romance influence. It is more likely that Italo-Dalmatian languages of a “western” type were spoken along the coast of the Western Balkans, whereas Eastern Romance developed in the interior, separated from the other Romance groupby the Dinaric Alps, and was the group of Vulgar Latin dialects spoken roughly from Pannonia (Hungary) to Moesia (basically parts of modern Serbia, Kosovo and Bulgaria) and some bits of Dacia, particularly in areas close to the Danube valley. Albanian Romance superstrate is closer to the latter than to the Italo-Dalmatian one spoken in the Dalmatian/Illyrian coast (where they would’ve been much closer to other “western” speakers in the Italian Peninsula, too).





    4) In Late Antiquity Proto-Romanian was probably centered a bit to the west of where it is spoken now, around present-day Serbia (that would’ve been before Slavs reduced the reach of Romance), though it could’ve been spoken in the areas around it in modern Romania, Bulgaria and elsewhere, too. It just happens that Latin was never a major language in or very close to Macedonia and Epirus, which is basically around most of present-day Albania. Another thing is that Romanian has a pre-Romance Paleo-Balkan substrate that has several close parallels to Albanian.
    Any credible evidence of a massive migration of Dacians from present Romania to Albania is very scant, not to say nonexistant. Likewise, though I have read such hypotheses before, I think it is very unlikely that Eastern Romance arose in or near Epirus, or anywhere south of Macedonia for that matter, and spread with people from there to Romania to become a major force in Wallachia, leaving little to no significant trace of such a profound change.
    Instead, I think it is far more plausible to explain the similarity between the Paleo-Balkanic Romanian substrate and Albanian with the hypothesis that the earliest form of Romanian was spoken a bit to the west, and the earliest form of Albanian (or at least an influential early dialect of it) a bit to the northeast, so that the two coexisted side by side.
    5) Albanian lacks a rich native vocabulary related to the sea and coastal areas and activities linked to them. Its lexical history points to an original linguistic community living at quite a distance from the coast and not being in regular use by people who relied on the sea for their living, a very common thing in the Mediterranean region. It is possible that a language/dialect similar to Proto-Albanian was spoken in some areas along the shore, but in any case that wouldn’t have been the language variety from which the extant Albanian dialects would’ve evolved.
    6) The Slavic names of some Serbian cities, like Nish (Serbia) and Shtip (North Macedonia), follow typically Albanian sound changes from their ancient Latin forms to their modern names in Serbo-Croatian. It is possible that the entire area, where languages broadly related to Proto-Albanian, may have undergone the same sound changes, but it is also possible that simply Kosovo and Southern Serbia still had many people speaking Proto-Albanian in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages, and the Slavs adopted the names of some local cities with all the quirks of the local people’s pronunciation.

    Thus, it is at least plausible that Proto-Albanian was spoken not necessarily only in the territory of Kosovo, but more broadly in an area stretching from North Albania to the western borders of Bulgaria, also encompassing lands in present-day Kosovo, Serbia, Montenegro and North Macedonia. The epicenter of the language would’ve gradually shifted southward as Slavs expanded in the Early Middle Ages and became increasingly dominant.

    Incidentally, it’s at least intriguing that that roughly determined location correlates closely to where the Kingdom of Dardania had been before the Roman conquest. Dardania, by the way, is a word that can be made sense of by an Albanian origin pear tree (Proto-Albanian *darda-), which also fits another word the etymology of which can be made sense of with the name of a domesticated animal/plant, Dalmatia (Proto-Albanian *delme, “sheep”). If Dardanians were a population speaking an eastern Illyrian language (it’s honestly unlikely that Illyrian hadn’t split into distinct if similar languages after such a long time), maybe with some Daco-Thracian influence, that could also explain the relatively easy adoption of it by people in the rest of the territory of modern Albania later.
    All of this is of course not proven conclusively nor is anything more than a hypothesis, but it is plausible and substantiated enough to be at least worth investigating further.
    https://www.quora.com/Can-it-be-true...sovo-territory








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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    This answer on Quora is one of the best, logical, reasonable answer i have seen on this topic.
    I agree with the nearly all of his points, as well as his conclusion. A Proto-Albanian homeland stretching from North Albania, Eastern Montenegro and into Kosovo makes most sense. However he does make some errors.

    He states that Albanian and Romanian share a Paleo-Balkan substrate, whilst this is true, it should be noted that most of this substrate is a result of Proto-Albanian words being adopted into Proto-Romanian. For example, Romanian barza (stork) and Aromanian bardzu (usually used to describe a white horse) is from Proto-Albanian bardza (white). Other examples also include, Romanian viezure/viedzure (badger) from Proto-Albanian vedzula.

    He also implies that Proto-Albanian must have arrived in modern day Albania during the Medieval, as a result of the Slavic migrations. The problem with this is that the Gheg-Tosk dialect split seems to predate the Slavic incursions, most probably occurring after the region was Christianized (so sometime during the 4th Century AD). We can assume this because of how Latin words associated with Christianity have undergone rhotacism in Tosk, for example Latin monachus (monk) becomes murgu in Tosk and mungu in Gheg. Also certain Slavic loanwords haven't undergone Tosk rhotacism, suggesting that Tosk rhotacism itself predates the Slavic migration. The presence of Proto-Albanian speakers in modern day Albania or the Southern Balkans prior to the Slavic migrations is also made likely by the fact that certain words in Greek (especially Doric dialects) have Proto-Albanian origin https://www.academia.edu/31212816/Th...words_in_Greek. There is also the fact that the majority of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian are Doric. Though I guess you could make a case that the dialect split didn't necessarily happen Albania, but I don't think that's likely.

    The claim that Albanian is lacking in maritime vocabulary was also brought up, though this is true for the most part, there are certain essential maritime words in Albanian that are native. For example, Albanian det (sea)comes from Proto-Albanian deubeta which in turn comes pre-Albanian dheubetos (ultimately from PIE dheubos which means deep). There is also the word anije (ship) which is believed to have come from Proto-Albanian anta or aukn. Also, a lack of maritime words doesn't necessarily mean that Proto-Albanian must have formed somewhere far to the east. A tribe living around the Albanian Alps (or some other highland region of Albania) wouldn't have a need to use maritime words.
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    Where does the Albanian language come from VIDEO

    For bystanders. Kanji are Chinese characters used in the Japanese language. I spotted these two myself but I havent got used to you posting out of office hours, Dan, so got beaten to it.

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    Where does the Albanian language come from VIDEO

    Thanks Daskale and thank you VODENKAThis is clear evidence of the acknowledgment of the Macedonian language by the Greek state. There is no disputing this.85 years later and Greece has amnesia, the Greek state has no minorities and 98 if its population is "Greek".

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    A very simplified short list of just some of the main theories that have historically been considered. Albanian has to have been at least around the Mati basin since early Roman times, as this place has almost no Roman placenames or linguistic penetration (something also observed in northern albanian mountains)


    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    A very simplified short list of just some of the main theories that have historically been considered. Albanian has to have been at least around the Mati basin since early Roman times, as this place has almost no Roman placenames or linguistic penetration (something also observed in northern albanian mountains)


    What do you guess, in how many years will we have the answer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_joe View Post
    What do you guess, in how many years will we have the answer?
    If there isn't total social collapse and civilization reset, within ten years we will know at least within the last 2000 years with fairly high precision where proto-albanian was and wasn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    A very simplified short list of just some of the main theories that have historically been considered. Albanian has to have been at least around the Mati basin since early Roman times, as this place has almost no Roman placenames or linguistic penetration (something also observed in northern albanian mountains)


    Interesting summary....the genetic composition in different times probably will provide us better clues for language.


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    I'll go with the Dacian theory but will go with it coming from the lands around the border of Serbia and Romania with the Albanian people a mix of local Illyrians and the romanized Dacian/Slavic tribe above.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    If there isn't total social collapse and civilization reset, within ten years we will know at least within the last 2000 years with fairly high precision where proto-albanian was and wasn't.
    I'm looking forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I'll go with the Dacian theory but will go with it coming from the lands around the border of Serbia and Romania with the Albanian people a mix of local Illyrians and the romanized Dacian/Slavic tribe above.
    We all know why you pick this theory. This theory was picked to appease political appetite of Serbs and Greeks. You will have your blow when ancient DNA from Illyrians are revealed. No matter how much you try to mask, it's pointless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I'll go with the Dacian theory but will go with it coming from the lands around the border of Serbia and Romania with the Albanian people a mix of local Illyrians and the romanized Dacian/Slavic tribe above.
    Mati Basin is very important for Albanian ethnogenesis as there is no penetration of Latin placenames. This suggests either pre-roman Albanophone presence there, or at the least early Albanophone enclave there. I don't see for now a Dacian model that explains Mati phenomen:

    "There are only two regions where there are no traces of Romanisation in the place names: the high mountain areas of the Northern Albanian Alps and the district of Mat.

    We would not expect Romanisation in the high mountain areas of the Northern Albanian Alps because it is obviously not a region that is conducive to settlement. Villages were and are rare there.

    At any rate, any genuine Latin place names would have been wiped out by the flood of Slavic invasion.

    The situation is quite different in the fertile district of Mat where, even today, there are sizeable towns and villages. It is here that we would normally expect to find Latin place names. "


    Source: http://www.albanianhistory.net/1936_Stadtmueller/

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    Also, if we look at where Illyrian and Roman toponyms survived the most, it correlates with the "Arber" culture (or Komani culture, based on earliest finds in Koman) which is what Albanian archaeologists offer as the cultural marker for the transition of Illyrians into Proto-Albanians.

    Serb nationalists argue this was a latinized vlach people in the Arber/Komani culture, who preserved these Illyrian and Roman toponyms. That necessitates proto-Albanians coming in Roman collapse and assimilating almost most of these "Komani" romanised peoples. This seems improbable to me.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    We all know why you pick this theory. This theory was picked to appease political appetite of Serbs and Greeks. You will have your blow when ancient DNA from Illyrians are revealed. No matter how much you try to mask, it's pointless.
    LOL

    we just wait.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    LOL

    we just wait.
    You shouldn't wait, you should spend more time improving your English language skills, your written form is completely unstructured, i bet your speaking is catastrophic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    We all know why you pick this theory. This theory was picked to appease political appetite of Serbs and Greeks. You will have your blow when ancient DNA from Illyrians are revealed. No matter how much you try to mask, it's pointless.
    It's my opinion, right? Everyone is entitled to his/hers. Here is what I base mine on. There are a lot more loanwords from the Slavic and Romanian/romance language than the Greek language. There are very few loanwords in Greek from Albanian. You would think that there would be more if you lived next to each other over 3000 years. Greek, Roman, Celtic, Thracian and Illyrian are vowel rich languages. Albanian or shall I say Arvanitika is not. It sounds Slavic to my ears.

    Gorgiev, one of the foremost authorities on Balkan languages also thinks so and so do a lot of Romanian linguists and historians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    We all know why you pick this theory. This theory was picked to appease political appetite of Serbs and Greeks. You will have your blow when ancient DNA from Illyrians are revealed. No matter how much you try to mask, it's pointless.
    I believe the Dacian theory was developed by Romanians, This theory was proposed in 1905 by Bogdan Petriceicu Hașdeu to explain the similarities between the Romanian and Albanian languages within the framework of the continuity theory for Romanians by establishing a shared origin from Dacian, with the Albanian resisting Romanization.

    This theory that reflected the political agendas of its time is obsolete now, it is very difficult to support Romanian continuity in northern Danube-Carpathian basin.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians




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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    It's my opinion, right? Everyone is entitled to his/hers. Here is what I base mine on. There are a lot more loanwords from the Slavic and Romanian/romance language than the Greek language. There are very few loanwords in Greek from Albanian. You would think that there would be more if you lived next to each other over 3000 years. Greek, Roman, Celtic, Thracian and Illyrian are vowel rich languages. Albanian or shall I say Arvanitika is not. It sounds Slavic to my ears.

    Gorgiev, one of the foremost authorities on Balkan languages also thinks so and so do a lot of Romanian linguists and historians.
    Well, weak arguments i must say, biased. Because, essentially they come from a Russian guy called Vladimir Orel who has published a book during 1998-2000 during the Kosovo war.

    You disregard everything that is obvious to explain an unlikely scenario. Georgiev is outdated, it's the same guy who also believed Thracians and Pelasgians spoke similar language. Matzinger and Trumper believe that Albanian, Illyrian and Messapian form a language family. Similarities are undeniable. Also, Albanian has Doric loanwords.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    You shouldn't wait, you should spend more time improving your English language skills, your written form is completely unstructured, i bet your speaking is catastrophic.
    but not my thoughts,
    neithrt the mathematical models,

    I am born like this,
    I have problem with logos and lectural speach,

    But I was granted on shapes. maths, etc etc.

    As for you,
    Just wait, When you find a fully completed with no empty spaces theory,
    come back to tell us.

    Until then, we will 'wait', wait' 'wait' and 'wait'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Well, weak arguments i must say, biased. Because, essentially they come from a Russian guy called Vladimir Orel who has published a book during 1998-2000 during the Kosovo war.

    You disregard everything that is obvious to explain an unlikely scenario. Georgiev is outdated, it's the same guy who also believed Thracians and Pelasgians spoke similar language. Matzinger and Trumper believe that Albanian, Illyrian and Messapian form a language family. Similarities are undeniable. Also, Albanian has Doric loanwords.
    Until you find a complete theory,

    we will wait, wait, and wait.

    You are not convincing, even an amateuer linguist when comes to a fully completed model.

    as for Georgiev, day by day its model fit and unite puzzles to a complete theory,
    with bot Linguistic and genetics.

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