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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

  1. #1551
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Interesting, so you literally fade out the rest of the J2b-L283 samples along the East Adriatic, the West Adriatic and the Mediterranean in order to support your claim of Illyrians being heavy E1b-V13 despite its absolute absence and totally different pathway.
    Thanks for the geography lesson I guess the MBA Posusje samples like the ones from Southern Croatia are actually Northern Croatian since Southern Croatia is the new Northern Croatia.
    I thought we were discussing classical Illyrians of the Balkans, as in mid to late Iron Age. Bronze Age samples you bring up obviously don't fit that category. And I did not claim Illyrians being E-V13 heavy. So don't put words in my mouth please :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    It hasn't shown up yet. But keep in mind that currently all we have is a few IA samples from one region of Northern Croatia which corresponds to Iapydes areas.

    While E-V13 may not turn out to be a major haplogroup among the classical Illyrians, it's possible that some of the major Albanian subclades were present among them. After all, they did stretch all the way to Central Balkans in classical antiquity. So let's wait until we have some hard data before jumping into conclusions.
    The actual statement is premature (given the lack of evidence) and not the persons who are saying it
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    This person PaleoRevenge doesn't believe in founder effects, they are nonsense according to him.
    You are not going to shame me because I am not a conventional person with no personality. Parroting is not hard, in fact most people can only parrot back popular view points. Show them proof that Albanians might have lived further east and they poop their pants or start rioting like BLM.

  3. #1553
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    You are not going to shame me because I am not a conventional person with no personality. Parroting is not hard, in fact most people can only parrot back popular view points. Show them proof that Albanians might have lived further east and they poop their pants or start rioting like BLM.

    No one is denying that Proto-Albanian was spoken in an area roughly corresponding to Dardania.

  4. #1554
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    That's because you can't see.
    Care to show us the evidence of a "late" entry then?

    What the evidence we have shows is that Albanian J2b-L283 subclades, such as J-Y20899 and J-Y82533, have TMRCAs among Albanian samples dating back well into the late antiquity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    No one is denying that Proto-Albanian was spoken in an area roughly corresponding to Dardania.
    You are not being honest, we have people here talking about Alexander of Macedon, Epirots and rotating everything to Illyria. If you stand by your quote, you should have no beef with people like me setting this people strait.

    Let's talk about founder effect, I first read that term in 2004-05 when the first Balkan and Bosnian study came out. They claimed I2a(back then I1b) = founder effect. Let's examine that overused term. We now know, that Dalmatia and Bosnia was chock full of J2b in BCE. Do you really believe some lonely I2a-Dinaric walked in one day and it went down like this?

    I2a man drifts into Bosnia, by sheer luck.
    J2b: What's up bro?
    I2a-Dinaric: It hurts man, the Avars burned down my home, I got nothing.
    J2b: You can stay with us bro, it's cool man, here have my wife too.

    Then the founder effect kicked in(magic) and the lonely I2a man out bred J2b, reducing them to nothing. Or J2b got smallpox and the I2a had all the women to himself? Do you really think like that and want to laugh at me?

    Let me tell you a little secret. Founder effect is taking a knee for multiculturalism. Just government employees (geneticist) simply toeing the party line, parti Enver kind of slogan, to keep the cheese rolling ($$$). Before genetic evidence came out, anthropologist were arguing old theories were wrong, Bell Beaker, Corded Ware all these cultures were simply a change of life style, not a change of people. You know kind of like boy now deciding he is really girl and needs to get a trans operation, same absurd concept. People like me questioned that view point in disbelief. Then genetic studies came out, and people like Maciamo and Jean proved the old school right, invasions were invasions and not some kumbaya event of people sharing cultures. Here why don't you try my pants on Neolithic dude. Founder effect is disclaimer language, yes R1a replaced the previous lineages, but it could be founder effect which translates to, it looks like an invasion occurred but invasion might not be invasion, we do not challenge the official government view, please don't cut our funding P.S founder effect.
    If you don't think such a policy exists, you are living life with your eyes closed.


    Here we are now, a lot has been rethought and reshaped by the genetic evidence. Except in the most backward spot in Europe. Everyone has moved around, migration here, there. But not in Albania, we are the most ancient ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Care to show us the evidence of a "late" entry then?
    What the evidence we have shows is that Albanian J2b-L283 subclades, such as J-Y20899 and J-Y82533, have TMRCAs among Albanian samples dating back well into the late antiquity.
    They are old because they are the real natives of Albania. I'm sure the J2a in the south is just as old. Do you think even....bro?

  7. #1557
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    In the mountains of the Nish-Shtip complex yes lol. I think we finally understand each other.

    J2b-L283 also being heavy in some Catholic areas coincidence ehmmm nope? That too I'd argue might have helped it maintaining its existence in the medieval after the Slavic and Proto-Albanian migration (Notice how the Arbereshe are of the Byzantine rite aka Orthodox...they dont have any J2b-L283 maybe one person haha) so many coincidences indeed.

    Nika guy marrying Gojcaj girl vice versa Spaci marrying Camaj etc. Back in the days that is how stuff went down.

    Whatever you choose to identify with is up to you and not on me to decide.
    Ah yes, the "mountains" of Nish, and Shtip. Nish has an elevation of 640 feet, Shtip has an elevation of 1000ft. They are cities in low lands. You call these mountains?

    The Albanian Alps have an elevation of 9000ft, and the Sharr mountains have an elevation of 9000ft. Dibra, 9000ft. 9 times the height of Shtip and 14 times greater than Nish lol. Why do you think Proto-Albanians didn't survive in Nish & Shtip? Too low of an elevation, too easily accessible, while the Northern Albanian Alps and the mountain range from Sharr to Ohrid, are very tall, steep, with many valleys, narrow chokepoints, and cliff towers to fend off invaders. J2b2 is highest in these mountains. Living and developing in the mountains is how Proto-Albanians survived in it's early stages. Summers in the mountains, winters in the low lands, where we had contact with Latins and then Slavs.

    There are J2b2 Arvanites and Arberesh, but you can just ignore them like you do everything, to make yourself feel smaller about your haplogroup. I've never seen someone shit on their own haplogroup so hard, it's very strange behavior.

    What's next? If we find a couple I2a Arbereshe, you and your E-V13 buddies will say it must be a Proto-Albanian haplogroup because it's more widespread in Toskeria than J2b2, LOL. "There it is, it seems Toskeria was heavily E-V13 + R1b + I2a, much at the demise of the J2b2 holders"

  8. #1558
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    You are not being honest, we have people here talking about Alexander of Macedon, Epirots and rotating everything to Illyria. If you stand by your quote, you should have no beef with people like me setting this people strait.

    Let's talk about founder effect, I first read that term in 2004-05 when the first Balkan and Bosnian study came out. They claimed I2a(back then I1b) = founder effect. Let's examine that overused term. We now know, that Dalmatia and Bosnia was chock full of J2b in BCE. Do you really believe some lonely I2a-Dinaric walked in one day and it went down like this?

    I2a man drifts into Bosnia, by sheer luck.
    J2b: What's up bro?
    I2a-Dinaric: It hurts man, the Avars burned down my home, I got nothing.
    J2b: You can stay with us bro, it's cool man, here have my wife too.

    Then the founder effect kicked in(magic) and the lonely I2a man out bred J2b, reducing them to nothing. Or J2b got smallpox and the I2a had all the women to himself? Do you really think like that and want to laugh at me?

    Let me tell you a little secret. Founder effect is taking a knee for multiculturalism. Just government employees (geneticist) simply toeing the party line, parti Enver kind of slogan, to keep the cheese rolling ($$$). Before genetic evidence came out, anthropologist were arguing old theories were wrong, Bell Beaker, Corded Ware all these cultures were simply a change of life style, not a change of people. You know kind of like boy now deciding he is really girl and needs to get a trans operation, same absurd concept. People like me questioned that view point in disbelief. Then genetic studies came out, and people like Maciamo and Jean proved the old school right, invasions were invasions and not some kumbaya event of people sharing cultures. Here why don't you try my pants on Neolithic dude. Founder effect is disclaimer language, yes R1a replaced the previous lineages, but it could be founder effect which translates to, it looks like an invasion occurred but invasion might not be invasion, we do not challenge the official government view, please don't cut our funding P.S founder effect.
    If you don't think such a policy exists, you are living life with your eyes closed.


    Here we are now, a lot has been rethought and reshaped by the genetic evidence. Except in the most backward spot in Europe. Everyone has moved around, migration here, there. But not in Albania, we are the most ancient ever.
    They are basically claiming the same for E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705. J2b-L283 is like nope I don't want to multiply anymore you guys do your thing here are our wives. Or perhaps they massively decided to drown themselves in the Adriatic.

    A partial population replacement which everything is f***** pointing to is not okay because we are all the same and every haplogroup is Albanian and Albanians are Illyrians and the whole Balkan peninsular is Illyrian. Moesians? Dacians? Thracians? Paeonians? Never heard of these folks. Dardania? Is that a thing or something? Albanians are the Natives of the Natives they are a SyNoNyM FoR NaTiViTy.

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    Some of the explanations thrown around are not well thought out. Proto-Illyrians are not the same as classical Illyrians? You are arguing discontinuity in Illyrians. At the same time you want to argue Albanian-Illyrian continuity. It's unreal how incompetent these people are.

  10. #1560
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    They are old because they are the real natives of Albania. I'm sure the J2a in the south is just as old. Do you think even....bro?
    Sorry, but you're showing us nothing to support your "genetic evidences". All you're doing is recycling your unsubstantiated personal beliefs. I don't have any more time to waste today :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyria View Post
    I've never seen someone shit on their own haplogroup so hard, it's very strange behavior.

  12. #1562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyria View Post
    There are J2b2 Arvanites and Arberesh, but you can just ignore them like you do everything, to make yourself feel smaller about your haplogroup. I've never seen someone shit on their own haplogroup so hard, it's very strange behavior.

    What's next? If we find a couple I2a Arbereshe, you and your E-V13 buddies will say it must be a Proto-Albanian haplogroup because it's more widespread in Toskeria than J2b2, LOL. "There it is, it seems Toskeria was heavily E-V13 + R1b + I2a, much at the demise of the J2b2 holders"
    There are Slavic haplogroups among Arbreshe, just as there are among Chams and Arvanites, because Proto-Albanians and Pre Proto-Albanoids had extensive contacts with Slavs and actually even contributed greatly to the formation of the South Slavic ethne (that is the plural of the word ethnos in case you are wondering).

    You can count those Arvanite/Arbereshe J2b-L283 on your hand and won't even get to ten. The sample size of Chams is small but there actually even is not a single J2b-L283 amongst them. You can also look up Albanian surnames that hint to a Cham origin and non of them are J2b-L283. There is some very low percentage of J2b-L283 under certain subclades in that region but among Greeks and Aromanians which one stock as I have mentioned earlier claims descent from Roman legionaries and indeed the "genetic" timing would support that.

    How exactly am I making myself feel smaller about my haplogroup? It is strange behaviour opposing or may I say refusing genetic data. I only stay true to my origins and not wishful thinking that suits a certain nationalistic narrative.
    Last edited by mount123; 30-04-22 at 16:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Sorry, but you're showing us nothing to support your "genetic evidences". All you're doing is recycling your unsubstantiated personal beliefs. I don't have any more time to waste today :)
    It's ok, go back the mud pool of Albaniaforum.com, let the big boys talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyria View Post
    Ah yes, the "mountains" of Nish, and Shtip. Nish has an elevation of 640 feet, Shtip has an elevation of 1000ft. They are cities in low lands. You call these mountains?

    The Albanian Alps have an elevation of 9000ft, and the Sharr mountains have an elevation of 9000ft. Dibra, 9000ft. 9 times the height of Shtip and 14 times greater than Nish lol. Why do you think Proto-Albanians didn't survive in Nish & Shtip? Too low of an elevation, too easily accessible, while the Northern Albanian Alps and the mountain range from Sharr to Ohrid, are very tall, steep, with many valleys, narrow chokepoints, and cliff towers to fend off invaders. J2b2 is highest in these mountains. Living and developing in the mountains is how Proto-Albanians survived in it's early stages. Summers in the mountains, winters in the low lands, where we had contact with Latins and then Slavs.

    There are J2b2 Arvanites and Arberesh, but you can just ignore them like you do everything, to make yourself feel smaller about your haplogroup. I've never seen someone shit on their own haplogroup so hard, it's very strange behavior.

    What's next? If we find a couple I2a Arbereshe, you and your E-V13 buddies will say it must be a Proto-Albanian haplogroup because it's more widespread in Toskeria than J2b2, LOL. "There it is, it seems Toskeria was heavily E-V13 + R1b + I2a, much at the demise of the J2b2 holders"
    First region associated with Albania has some of the lowest mountains in Albania (Mat valley, Kruja, Shkumbin). The most mediocre looking mountains too.

    Kruja-Komani culture was not a pastoral one.

  15. #1565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    You guys can keep dreaming about those potent E1b-V13 men that outnumbered J2b-L283 among Illyrians as much as you want. If that is what makes your bottoms I mean hearts happy then that is fine. Each to their own.

  16. #1566
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    I wonder if its correlation or causation... mental health problems/deterioration in relation to frequenting anthrofora.

    Trojet I took you advise and have kept away from the monthly shitshow, discussions about Albanians / L283 / Illyrians can become on fora. As you can see you were completely right on some observations.
    This is with us having like 50 ancient samples now linking Albanians with L283 subclades to ancient haplotypes found in bronze age "Illyrian" Balkans.
    I can only imagine the shit you went through years ago when even ancient samples were missing... respect.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    They are basically claiming the same for E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705. J2b-L283 is like nope I don't want to multiply anymore you guys do your thing here are our wives. Or perhaps they massively decided to drown themselves in the Adriatic.

    A partial population replacement which everything is f***** pointing to is not okay because we are all the same and every haplogroup is Albanian and Albanians are Illyrians and the whole Balkan peninsular is Illyrian. Moesians? Dacians? Thracians? Paeonians? Never heard of these folks. Dardania? Is that a thing or something? Albanians are the Natives of the Natives they are a SyNoNyM FoR NaTiViTy.
    Insecure and ignorant. They are insecure with our origins and lack any ability to self-reflect. The internet has made the world super small, and they are totally oblivious to what is discussed outside their Hoxha history theme. Completely disconnected from the rest of world.

    Imagine being ashamed of your biological parents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    He is an Albanian nationalistic troll account with false info in his bio. He also is not J2b-L283 in case you are wondering. He has multiple puppet accounts on this forum where he basically claims the whole world and every haplogroup is Albanian .


    Yes, I made everything up. I'm a sock account and I faked my Y-DNA all for you. You got me.

    https://ibb.co/HnVRMWz







    I think they have medication for what you have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Buza is used quite often as nickname for Albanians with thick lips. Even during wartime they nicknamed people like that. So, looks quite credible as much as the Dacian name Diegis meaning the burnt/flamed one which has similar meaning to Albanian djegs.

    As for Coutzes i have no idea. Derite is quite the expert on linguistics and etymologies.

    Matzinger has already put his decade-long of study in a book. I tend more to trust credible linguists like him. I do believe Pre/Proto-Albanoid(note that this is not Proto-Albanian but much ancient, Late Bronze Age) was one of the languages brought by the Gava/Channeled-Ware people which took the Central Balkans route and not the Eastern Thracoid variants which had latter heavy Iranid influences both culturally and linguistically likely.

    Likely similar people pushed into Albania during Late Bronze Age attested by the Kanellure influence, but were latter swamped and included by the Early-Middle Iron Age Glasinac expansion.

    You even have it in legend/mythology where the cremating Enchelei were being attacked by Northern Illyrians likely the Glasinac-Mat people.
    This is utter nonsense and garbage. "Kuq" is a Latin loanword ultimately of Greek origin Coccum -> Kokkos meaning berry. Buze derives from Budhe + ze, coming from earlier *Budza.

    Haplobros should stick to making up fake stories about their Y-DNAs.

  20. #1570
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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    This is utter nonsense and garbage. "Kuq" is a Latin loanword ultimately of Greek origin Coccum -> Kokkos meaning berry. Buze derives from Budhe + ze, coming from earlier *Budza.
    So, in the first part of your sentence you claim it is completely nonsense and garbage and in the second part you just go in line what i said, not opposing at all, Buzas is indeed a proper Albanian name and somehow which i never indicated how is related to Thracian Bouzas, could be a folk etymology just as Matzinger hinted for many of Illyrian words. As for Kuqi, Koutzes, never indicated something, it looks to be Vulgar Latin adaption in Albanian.

    IMO, you have some serious issues.

    Haplobros should stick to making up fake stories about their Y-DNAs.
    You are a troll for sure, using dodgy-lines one-liners won't make you shift the attention, elaborate why and how. I think that Riverman's systematic approach is the best explanation on anthrofora which comes close, he knows his shit. He'll go one by one explaining how, when and why he thinks so, something which you guys lack and substitute by trolling, ad-hominems and personal insults. Lack of knowledge in combination with an ego beyond what you can bear.

  21. #1571
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    Wow, another Civil War.

    Off topic, anyone kind enough to direct me to autosomal topics between Albanians? I want to compare the ancient similarities especially. Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    So, in the first part of your sentence you claim it is completely nonsense and garbage and in the second part you just go in line what i said, not opposing at all, Buzas is indeed a proper Albanian name and somehow which i never indicated how is related to Thracian Bouzas, could be a folk etymology just as Matzinger hinted for many of Illyrian words. As for Kuqi, Koutzes, never indicated something, it looks to be Vulgar Latin adaption in Albanian.

    IMO, you have some serious issues.



    You are a troll for sure, using dodgy-lines one-liners won't make you shift the attention, elaborate why and how. I think that Riverman's systematic approach is the best explanation on anthrofora which comes close, he knows his shit. He'll go one by one explaining how, when and why he thinks so, something which you guys lack and substitute by trolling, ad-hominems and personal insults. Lack of knowledge in combination with an ego beyond what you can bear.
    Both you and him are clowns writing LOTR lore backed up by nothing. Like seriously, nothing you say has any historic backing by any sources. You're just two basement dwellers writing medieval fantasy stories about your Y-DNA.

    The EV13s did this, The J2b did this. Complete childlike understanding of history and archeology. We're talking IE tribes that used to be primarily R1b-Z2103 heavy, now Z2103s are minorities. That's how Y-DNA works. But you would need a functioning brain to figure that out.

  23. #1573
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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Both you and him are clowns writing LOTR lore backed up by nothing. Like seriously, nothing you say has any historic backing by any sources. You're just two basement dwellers writing medieval fantasy stories about your Y-DNA.

    The EV13s did this, The J2b did this. Complete childlike understanding of history and archeology. We're talking IE tribes that used to be primarily R1b-Z2103 heavy, now Z2103s are minorities. That's how Y-DNA works. But you would need a functioning brain to figure that out.
    Your reply doesn't surprise me, it contains absolutely no substance, just dodgy-lines, one-liners ("clown", "backed by nothing", "medieval fantasy", "that's not how it works"), care to elaborate exactly what did we say, teach us how things works, why do you think the things are said don't make sense? Elaborate and reply on the respective thread if you feel so, but replying like this without substance is beyond ridiculous.

    I seriously doubt you have the mental capacity to reflect on what we said exactly, your low IQ combined with your ego prevents you from doing that. You just don't have the knowledge (i never seen you once write about or cite any archaelogical paper on ancient Balkans, just rambles and cursing words), don't read archaeology on ancient Balkans, are not curious, because of that lack you act in state of desperation accusing us without any substance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Your reply doesn't surprise me, it contains absolutely no substance, just dodgy-lines, one-liners ("clown", "backed by nothing", "medieval fantasy", "that's not how it works"), care to elaborate exactly what did we say, teach us who things works, why do you think the things are said don't make sense? Elaborate and reply on the respective thread if you feel so, but replying like this without substance is beyond ridiculous.

    I seriously doubt you have the mental capacity to reflect on what we said exactly, your low IQ combined with your ego prevents you from doing that.
    Yes, it takes great perspicacity and brain power to grasp your esoteric "But EV-13s went like this, and J2bs went like that, and R1bs were like WOW" discourse. Very scholarly.

    You sound like a bunch of 12 year old children who want everything oversimplified and dumbed down.

  25. #1575
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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Yes, it takes great perspicacity and brain power to grasp your esoteric "But EV-13s went like this, and J2bs went like that, and R1bs were like WOW" discourse. Very scholarly.

    You sound like a bunch of 12 year old children who want everything oversimplified and dumbed down.
    I will accept your "criticism" only when you go to the respective threads and reply to us line by line why you think all those lines quoted and everything we said so far don't make sense. But what i am asking, i am asking too much from an empty-head like you who will continue dodging with one-liners and put us into a loop.

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