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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

  1. #1576
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Your reply doesn't surprise me, it contains absolutely no substance, just dodgy-lines, one-liners ("clown", "backed by nothing", "medieval fantasy", "that's not how it works"), care to elaborate exactly what did we say, teach us how things works, why do you think the things are said don't make sense? Elaborate and reply on the respective thread if you feel so, but replying like this without substance is beyond ridiculous.

    I seriously doubt you have the mental capacity to reflect on what we said exactly, your low IQ combined with your ego prevents you from doing that. You just don't have the knowledge (i never seen you once write about or cite any archaelogical paper on ancient Balkans, just rambles and cursing words), don't read archaeology on ancient Balkans, are not curious, because of that lack you act in state of desperation accusing us without any substance.
    He is a troll just as many other accounts on this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    As for magjup, proto J people were dark skinned. I people, in particular i2a were the true europeans
    This for instance coming from an Albanian who is I-Y3120. Apparently that Slavic line according to him is Dacian or Albanian
    He posts as ShpataeMadhe on Anthrogenica and somehow his statements are not problematic to the Rrenjet/Gjenetika community. Because making every haplogroup even Slavic ones core Proto-Albanian or Paleo-Balkan is okay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    You are not being honest, we have people here talking about Alexander of Macedon, Epirots and rotating everything to Illyria.
    ...
    Here we are now, a lot has been rethought and reshaped by the genetic evidence. Except in the most backward spot in Europe. Everyone has moved around, migration here, there. But not in Albania, we are the most ancient ever.
    This also one Albanian guy who has the habit of linking Slavic YDNAs here in particular I-Y3120 with the general Paleo-Balkans like Dacians because it is not in line with his Pan-Albaniansim:

    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    In case you arent aware, ukraine and south poland were part of the dacian world. Some i2a-din tmrca in south europe precedes the slavic expansion by hundreds of years
    ...
    so far just like v-13 it has been hard to come by possibly due to cremation. So, what do you think is dacian y dna or did they just dissapear into thin air?

    What you need to understand is i2a is the original marker of europeans and has been in europe for 20,000+ years so it makes little sense for it to all of a sudden expand in europe with late arrivals from the east (slavs) where i2 has very little history
    Don't expect anything from these people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    This also one Albanian guy who has the habit of linking Slavic YDNAs here in particular I-Y3120 with the general Paleo-Balkans like Dacians because it is not in line with his Pan-Albaniansim:


    Don't expect anything from these people.

    Back in the early 2000s before I2a was even figured out what it was other than it's distribution, I was making arguments that south Albanians have Slavic admixtures, because half of our villages have Slavic names and many of us sometimes look Slavic. I didn't know I2a was Slavic. Back then people were arguing Balkan Slavs were only 10% Slavic (military elite that just assimilated Pellasgian type slaves). I opposed this dumb view way before genetic data made it obsolete just by examining the world with no feelings.

    It's amazing how much you can figure out by not being an emotional little child.

    You notice everything is personal with these little personalities? You just hate your own haplogroup, you are just cheering for your haplogroup. The motive has to be personal. It's the main reason why there is no real professionalism from Albania. Everything has to satisfy a personal goal. This makes me question their motif, as J2b men who fantasize about E-V13 out-breeding them, are they cucks? Do they like fantasizing about E-V13 men bulling their women? I don't get it, just to keep the Illyrian theory intact, they have resorted to an embarrassing explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Both you and him are clowns writing LOTR lore backed up by nothing. Like seriously, nothing you say has any historic backing by any sources. You're just two basement dwellers writing medieval fantasy stories about your Y-DNA.
    Exactly my point I made about you. Everything is framed with a "it's impossible to question me, if you do you are a faulty character". Little child.

    BTW What sources claim Alexander was some cannabis grower bum from Kurvelesh? Show me the sources. Make me believe there is a connection.

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    Another common Thracian name, found among Roman recruits, is Bithus, Bethos, Bitus.

    The Arberesh and Arvanites had an funky name that was built around the word bytha. Possible connection?

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    This is utter nonsense and garbage. "Kuq" is a Latin loanword ultimately of Greek origin Coccum -> Kokkos meaning berry. Buze derives from Budhe + ze, coming from earlier *Budza.

    Haplobros should stick to making up fake stories about their Y-DNAs.
    If it is Latin, by 580 AD when Coutzes lived, the word was already absorbed by the natives 2-4 centuries earlier. There is no conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I will accept your "criticism" only when you go to the respective threads and reply to us line by line why you think all those lines quoted and everything we said so far don't make sense. But what i am asking, i am asking too much from an empty-head like you who will continue dodging with one-liners and put us into a loop.
    Your entire "analysis" is unproveable on purpose since you have completely decoupled it entirely from historical sources. It's like me saying "there was a guy named Gregory living in Central Asia 7,500 years ago that had 3 eyes". How can you disprove that? Instead of focusing on historical sources/events you focus on random obscure "cultures", which we know for a fact don't necessarily bring DNA changes with it. The early Bell Beakers had no steppe DNA. They were the same culture as the latter Bell Beakers who were steppe-heavy.

    Since there are dozens of cultures out there, you just pick whatever random one that has very little historicity and associate it with your Y-DNA to write fanfiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Exactly my point I made about you. Everything is framed with a "it's impossible to question me, if you do you are a faulty character". Little child.

    BTW What sources claim Alexander was some cannabis grower bum from Kurvelesh? Show me the sources. Make me believe there is a connection.
    We just got DNA from that region you "intellectual". It's in the other thread. I literally predicted it to a tee a few months ago. Brainiacs like you forget we have this thing called "autosomal DNA". It's quite easy to figure out who the Proto-Albanians were, just like it was quite easy to figure out who the Proto-Greeks were. Just remove some Migration Era Slavic/Germanic DNA, and you get those proto-populations.

    Your central/northern Balkan bullshit is debunked by autosomal DNA, since Proto-Albanians and Proto-Greeks had to have been practically identical autosomally. And unlike Hawk's nonsense of "all Balkans were the same" we have proof that Bulgarian IA, Croatian IA, etc... were not the same at all.


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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Your entire "analysis" is unproveable on purpose since you have completely decoupled it entirely from historical sources. It's like me saying "there was a guy named Gregory living in Central Asia 7,500 years ago that had 3 eyes". How can you disprove that? Instead of focusing on historical sources/events you focus on random obscure "cultures", which we know for a fact don't necessarily bring DNA changes with it. The early Bell Beakers had no steppe DNA. They were the same culture as the latter Bell Beakers who were steppe-heavy.

    Since there are dozens of cultures out there, you just pick whatever random one that has very little historicity and associate it with your Y-DNA to write fanfiction.
    That's not true at all. The Eastern Urnfield Complex during Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age was extremely important cultural complex.

    And what kind of historical sources you want for Bronze Age, we have cited academic archaeological papers for everything we have talked about, i expect you to oppose what we have written not coming here writing one-liners and shift the reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Instead of focusing on historical sources/events you focus on random obscure "cultures", which we know for a fact don't necessarily bring DNA changes with it. The early Bell Beakers had no steppe DNA. They were the same culture as the latter Bell Beakers who were steppe-heavy.
    That's very much up to debate and more importantly, we have always look at the full package. Like the full Bell Beaker package was definitely something spread by a specific people with a specific genetic profile.

    And that's what its about if connecting archaeological cultures with replacement and founder events: Not single items, but whole packages. Like for Channelled Ware in South Eastern Europe, its a whole list of newly introduced items, technologies, customs and behaviours, which in some regions appeared together with a burnt destruction horizon. In fact, in some regions, especially the Morava valley, the connection is even more clear than with the Bell Beakers in many areas, because we have actual proof of a grande scale war and invasion. The locals fled to the hills, literally, along the whole valleys all settlements being burnt and suddenly a completely new package appeared. It was a big migration period of the Late Bronze Age, with many people on the move.

    And massive founder and replacement events, especially of patrilineages, don't just happen randomly, most of the time. So if we have specific subclades, specific branching events with a TMRCA, we need to find the background for it. And we already know that the previous people had not as much, if any, E-V13, because they being tested. And we already know that in the areas tested, in which Channelled Ware people/Psenichevo-Basarabi spread, E-V13 appears later. Not randomly, specifically in areas affected by these cultural formations and horizons. That's no coincidence, its a solid correlation.

    Patrilineages spread primarily by conquest, colonisation and social dominance. This needs to be achieved and connected to events which can be, usually, traced in the archaeological record if they are big enough. And Eastern Urnfield/Channelled Ware was big enough, because it created a horizon which can be used for dating the region, for the regional chronology e.g. in Bulgaria. There is a time before and after it. After they appear, its the time of the beginning Iron Age. Their invasion ends the Bronze Age for the Balkans.
    And E-V13 has this massive series of founder effects, like everyone can check on FTDNA and YFull, exactly in that time frame of the Transitional LBA-EIA period, between about 1.300-900 BC.

    At some point, there will be a similar case being made for Proto-Albanians, but that's harder to track because it was a significantly smaller and less homogeneous phenomenon. The Channelled Ware expansion, especially of Belegis II-Gáva into the Psenichevo-Basarabi horizon will create glass clear numbers of more than 70 % plus E-V13 for many regions. That's coming close to the numbers for R1a in Corded Ware and R1b in Bell Beakers.
    Albanians were a much later formation with a more complex history at the borderline of two big blocks, Illyrians (dominated by J-L283) and Thracians (dominated by E-V13), which both intermixed, being later pushed by Iranians, later largely subdued by the Romans and affected by all later migrations.

    In the Bronze Age however, especially for Channelled Ware/Psenichevo-Basarabi, in the initial stage, things were still more clear and differentiated. The "Roman" Viminacium samples and the "Avar" era samples from around Szeged, both Basarabi strongholds in the Iron Age, are first but very clear hints.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    We just got DNA from that region you "intellectual". It's in the other thread. I literally predicted it to a tee a few months ago. Brainiacs like you forget we have this thing called "autosomal DNA". It's quite easy to figure out who the Proto-Albanians were, just like it was quite easy to figure out who the Proto-Greeks were. Just remove some Migration Era Slavic/Germanic DNA, and you get those proto-populations.

    Your central/northern Balkan bullshit is debunked by autosomal DNA, since Proto-Albanians and Proto-Greeks had to have been practically identical autosomally. And unlike Hawk's nonsense of "all Balkans were the same" we have proof that Bulgarian IA, Croatian IA, etc... were not the same at all.

    You're inept, you see whatever you want to see. A medieval Greek from Epirus clusters with modern Greeks. That means what? You're Alex of Macedon?

    Doliani, which has to be Doliani of Greek Zagoria region is a world apart from Kurvelesh, in terms of civilization. You don't have much to do with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    In the mountains of the Nish-Shtip complex yes lol. I think we finally understand each other.

    J2b-L283 also being heavy in some Catholic areas coincidence ehmmm nope? That too I'd argue might have helped it maintaining its existence in the medieval after the Slavic and Proto-Albanian migration (Notice how the Arbereshe are of the Byzantine rite aka Orthodox...they dont have any J2b-L283 maybe one person haha) so many coincidences indeed.

    Nika guy marrying Gojcaj girl vice versa Spaci marrying Camaj etc. Back in the days that is how stuff went down.

    Whatever you choose to identify with is up to you and not on me to decide.
    Watch this clip from Elveta Nallbani, the one that prevents the Koman remains from being tested.

    http://youtu.be/VspFRsuzFJw?t=121

    She is saying the liturgy inscription in the Komani culture is in Latin. Their church leaned to Rome. However she also says this Latin period occurred in the 11th-12th century when he Komani culture had phased out. As usual no clear chronology coming from the ex-communist experts. I am not sure why this is presented as part of Komani material culture. If Komani culture elements lingered in certain parts of Albania past the 10th century, it should be stated.
    I do consider the Drin valley dwellers Komani derived, up to the 12th century when the Albanians begin to dominate and settle among them.
    Last edited by PaleoRevenge; 04-05-22 at 04:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    You're inept, you see whatever you want to see. A medieval Greek from Epirus clusters with modern Greeks. That means what? You're Alex of Macedon?

    Doliani, which has to be Doliani of Greek Zagoria region is a world apart from Kurvelesh, in terms of civilization. You don't have much to do with them.
    Are you illiterate? Modern Albanians are on that circle. Check the map. They're right next to the ancient Greek samples. Literally the same DNA + some extra Slavic (from R1a, branches of I2a, etc...).

    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Watch this clip from Elveta Nallbani, the one that prevents the Koman remains from being tested.
    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post

    http://youtu.be/VspFRsuzFJw?t=121

    She is saying the liturgy inscription in the Komani culture is in Latin. Their church leaned to Rome. However she also says this Latin period occurred in the 11th-12th century when he Komani culture had phased out. As usual no clear chronology coming from the ex-communist experts. I am not sure why this is presented as part of Komani material culture. If Komani culture elements lingered in certain parts of Albania past the 10th century, it should be stated.
    I do consider the Drin valley dwellers Komani derived, up to the 12th century when the Albanians begin to dominate and settle among them.


    Mate, wtf are you talking about? They just sent like like 50+ samples from Albania for DNA testing to Oxford. They already did the carbon dating (from 3rd century to 4th century). No one is "hiding" anything.

    Thank God we have you the unbiased intellectual to write us fanfics about our Y-DNAs. Those biased Albanians that collaborate with some of the biggest universities in the world are just propagandists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Mate, wtf are you talking about? They just sent like like 50+ samples from Albania for DNA testing to Oxford. They already did the carbon dating (from 3rd century to 4th century).
    Are there any Bronze and earlier Iron Age samples in the pipeline from Albania? Anybody knows anything?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Are there any Bronze and earlier Iron Age samples in the pipeline from Albania? Anybody knows anything?
    According to one of Rrenjet admins gjergj one sample from Early Bronze Age Albania is R1b-M269>PF7562, one from Middle Bronze Age Albania is J2b2-L283.

    And he said that he expects E-V13 in Early Iron Age Albania, i don't know in what sense he said, whether he knows something or it's just his personal prediction.

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    There should be some ancient dna tested from Maliq, Albania, among other places. That might be a good candidate for some ancient E-V13. I remember reading into Maliq last year and I think there may be links to Channeled Ware there.

    https://imgur.com/a/s66epYW

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    They are basically claiming the same for E1b-V13 and R1b-Z2705. J2b-L283 is like nope I don't want to multiply anymore you guys do your thing here are our wives. Or perhaps they massively decided to drown themselves in the Adriatic.

    A partial population replacement which everything is f***** pointing to is not okay because we are all the same and every haplogroup is Albanian and Albanians are Illyrians and the whole Balkan peninsular is Illyrian. Moesians? Dacians? Thracians? Paeonians? Never heard of these folks. Dardania? Is that a thing or something? Albanians are the Natives of the Natives they are a SyNoNyM FoR NaTiViTy.
    One E-V13 has been found in Illyrian land and even one R1b.
    Besides all Phoenicians turned to be J nobody is claiming that Phoenicians were only J.

    And no G was found in Iron Age Central Italy until the 24 samples from Etruscans were revealed.

    Even if E-V13 has nothing to do with Illyrians, it is what it is. But we still need way more and waaay more data to be sure. Even if your claim turns out to be true it's only a matter of luck. You have not provided any good arguments aside from screaming.
    Last edited by ihype02; 05-05-22 at 01:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    One E-V13 has been found in Illyrian land ...
    Which E-V13 from Illyrian lands? Bronze to Iron Age?

    Even if E-V13 has nothing to do with Illyrians, ...
    E-V13 is very likely to be one way or another, even if just as an assimilated minority-border lineage, involved with actual Illyrians. The question is rather whether they can be connected to Proto-Illyrians (ancestral and early Illyrians), and the answer to that is no. The later historical tribes of Illyrians will have E-V13, as many Thracian groups will have at least some J-L283.
    There was gene flow between these groups, as soon as the dust was setting and everybody settled down after the tumultuous Early Iron Age.

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    First we need to be sure who we’re calling Illyrians.

    Linguistically Illyrian? Geographically Illyrian?

    Secondly, which Illyrians? Proprie dicti?

    What we know so far is that J2b2 was in Illyria but not that it belonged to the ancestral people that brought the Illyrian language.

    It’s not impossible that J2b2 were similar to Italo-Celts, then R1b Illyrians came, then E-V13 heavy (plus other haplos) Daco-Thracians came.

    So J2b2 is so far just geographically Illyrian, as is Etruscan, Sardinian, and Daunian.

    As of now, nobody can disprove that E-V13 didn’t bring the Illyrian language.

    What we know as Illyrian is roughly from 500 BC onwards, giving enough time to E-V13 to spread in Dardania, Praevalitana, Albania, Makedonia, etc.

    We can’t even agree on the etymology of Scodra not to mention who spoke actually Illyrian and who didn’t.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    First we need to be sure who we’re calling Illyrians.

    Linguistically Illyrian? Geographically Illyrian?

    Secondly, which Illyrians? Proprie dicti?

    What we know so far is that J2b2 was in Illyria but not that it belonged to the ancestral people that brought the Illyrian language.

    It’s not impossible that J2b2 were similar to Italo-Celts, then R1b Illyrians came, then E-V13 heavy (plus other haplos) Daco-Thracians came.

    So J2b2 is so far just geographically Illyrian, as is Etruscan, Sardinian, and Daunian.

    As of now, nobody can disprove that E-V13 didn’t bring the Illyrian language.

    What we know as Illyrian is roughly from 500 BC onwards, giving enough time to E-V13 to spread in Dardania, Praevalitana, Albania, Makedonia, etc.

    We can’t even agree on the etymology of Scodra not to mention who spoke actually Illyrian and who didn’t.
    The problem comes from the fact that we deal with two fairly distinct cultural and archaeological spheres as well. Not just linguistically these are two groups, whether they being themselves related or not, Illyrian and Thracian, but they also had different geographical ranges and cultural features.

    And we do have from enough places by now J-L283 from Illyrian and related contexts. Take for example the Unterkrainische group in Slovenia and the site of Novo Mesto: R1b (R-L2) and J-L283. They practised Illyrian style community burials. Directly neighbouring, to their North, in Frög, they cremated and had a Thracian societal structure, direct ties to Basarabi, including migrants and bride exchange.
    The Unterkrainische group also had material and trade ties directly to areas like Montenegro-Albania!

    So we deal from there onwards with archaeological groups which being either Illyrian or heavily Illyrian influenced and shifted. And voila, they have J-L283 as their main haplogroup!

    If we go North and Eastwards, the Thracian influences become stronger, particularly after the Danube bent and East of the Tisza. This is the area where the biggest clusters of E-V13 have been found so far, in the midst of former Thracian, also Gáva/Basarabi territory. Also in Psenichevo, a clearly and Basarabi-related Iron Age Thracian culture.

    So while we don't have anything from "in between", we see that the Western and clearly Illyrian related (carefully chosen words) groups being dominated by J-L283, with so far zero E-V13, even from later times. Why should the Illyrians in between be dominated by E-V13? And how should the Illyrians being split into two groups, of which one carries the Thracian patrilineage?

    They could so, later, by having assimilated the Channelled Ware people and Basarabi groups, like in the Srem group, the Dardanians etc. But that's secondary assimilation, not primary, ancestral Illyrians.

    It really makes no sense, at this point, if Illyrians would turn out to be full of E-V13 in their Eastern core, without contacts to Thracians from which they could have acquired it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    First we need to be sure who we’re calling Illyrians.

    Linguistically Illyrian? Geographically Illyrian?

    Secondly, which Illyrians? Proprie dicti?

    What we know so far is that J2b2 was in Illyria but not that it belonged to the ancestral people that brought the Illyrian language.

    It’s not impossible that J2b2 were similar to Italo-Celts, then R1b Illyrians came, then E-V13 heavy (plus other haplos) Daco-Thracians came.

    So J2b2 is so far just geographically Illyrian, as is Etruscan, Sardinian, and Daunian.

    As of now, nobody can disprove that E-V13 didn’t bring the Illyrian language.

    What we know as Illyrian is roughly from 500 BC onwards, giving enough time to E-V13 to spread in Dardania, Praevalitana, Albania, Makedonia, etc.

    We can’t even agree on the etymology of Scodra not to mention who spoke actually Illyrian and who didn’t.
    Because when you connect the dots of aDNA with archaeology you get a more clearer picture. The quintessential Illyrian material culture is considered the Glasinac-Mat Culture which scretched from Bosnia to North Albania, the burial rite was quite specific for all related tribes (to those where J2b2-L283 has been found so far), even for those scretching down to South Albania. Very likely it is that E-V13 was the secondary contributor to their ethnogenesis (more Southern Illyrians and Dardanians) via the Trebeniste Culture where the Channeled-Ware influence was prevalent (Polska mentioned Maliq, that was one of the sites of Trebeniste Culture). For instance, the Enchelei (historical population representative of Trebeniste Culture) are considered the first attested Illyrian tribe, yet their burial rite is quite different from core Illyrians, they practiced cremation on a pyre beneath having a low mound and as secondary burials they had rectangular pits.

    No one can say that religious practices on burials in Iron Age, archaic times could be adopted like that, no chance, there was no universal message on their religion, there was no Christianity-like, Islam-like during those time, it was a tribalistic religious practices all over the regions, and hence for decades the burial rites are considered as one of the consistent tools of defining material culture for a certain ancient population.

    We cannot know for sure without getting aDNA results. That's clear.

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    @Riverman and @Hawk

    I agree with every evidence that you brought up, but I’m not drawing linguistic conclusions yet. Even aDNA won’t clear things up for us as they’ll just point to differences among Western Balkan tribes. That’s it.

    When we talk of tribes/ethnicities, language is the main factor and my point is that the #1 Illyrians are those that lived next to Makedon (even inside the later bigger kingdom of Makedon). Arnisa, a Makedonian city, was initially an Illyrian (possibly Taulantian) city.

    The further they lived from the Makedonians and Hellenes, the less we can be sure of their ethnic identity and language.

    Then we have the Roman time identification of “Illyrii proprie dicti”. That fact that they specified “proper Illyrians” is a big indication in my opinion. I haven’t heard of Graeci proprie dicti, Galii proprie dicti, etc.

    Therefore, it’s enough to find E-V13 in Iron Age Albania to prove that “proper Illyrians” had E-V13 and those Illyroid/Illyric/possibly Illyrianized people of Bosnia and its surroundings need to find a new name during the Bronze and Early Iron Age. They’re “similar to proper Illyrians” only during the Roman-Illyrian Wars or the The Great Illyrian revolt.

    To concluse, the candidates of real Illyrians by order are:

    1. Those near the Makedonians and near Corcyra, Apollonia and Dyrrhachium
    2. Those in North Albania and Montenegro, around Skodra and Rhison
    3. Those in Western Dardania, but historically linked to those near the Makedonians around South-Eastern Albania and further
    4. Those in Liburnia, Northern Dalmatia, and Pannonia

  23. #1598
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    @Riverman and @Hawk

    I agree with every evidence that you brought up, but I’m not drawing linguistic conclusions yet. Even aDNA won’t clear things up for us as they’ll just point to differences among Western Balkan tribes. That’s it.

    When we talk of tribes/ethnicities, language is the main factor and my point is that the #1 Illyrians are those that lived next to Makedon (even inside the later bigger kingdom of Makedon). Arnisa, a Makedonian city, was initially an Illyrian (possibly Taulantian) city.

    The further they lived from the Makedonians and Hellenes, the less we can be sure of their ethnic identity and language.

    Then we have the Roman time identification of “Illyrii proprie dicti”. That fact that they specified “proper Illyrians” is a big indication in my opinion. I haven’t heard of Graeci proprie dicti, Galii proprie dicti, etc.

    Therefore, it’s enough to find E-V13 in Iron Age Albania to prove that “proper Illyrians” had E-V13 and those Illyroid/Illyric/possibly Illyrianized people of Bosnia and its surroundings need to find a new name during the Bronze and Early Iron Age. They’re “similar to proper Illyrians” only during the Roman-Illyrian Wars or the The Great Illyrian revolt.

    To concluse, the candidates of real Illyrians by order are:

    1. Those near the Makedonians and near Corcyra, Apollonia and Dyrrhachium
    2. Those in North Albania and Montenegro, around Skodra and Rhison
    3. Those in Western Dardania, but historically linked to those near the Makedonians around South-Eastern Albania and further
    4. Those in Liburnia, Northern Dalmatia, and Pannonia
    It is very clear however that going by the archaeological evidence, that the Illyrians came from the relative North West, Thracians from the North and East, both met at the borders of modern Albania. Later E-V13 doesn't prove it to have been in ancestral/Proto-Illyrians.

    And the burial rites and customs of the Illyrians vs. Thracians were quite specific, not arbitrary. Unless you find an Illyrian tribe which being dominated by E-V13 (not one of the mixed groups like Srem and Dardanians, but those from the core), it will be very hard to prove E-V13 as a primary Proto-Illyrian.
    Historical Illyrians however will have it, like explained. Might be similar to the I2a-Din case for the Slavs: It might have been carried by a very different people initially, but was picked up by the Slavs early on. It will be similar for E-V13, but with the big difference that its original context and source was never destroyed, because the Thracians and their descendants being still around. So unlike in the I2a-Din case, there is much less space for speculation about their original context, once we can prove them to be overly dominant in the very clearly Thracian cultural formations of Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo-Babadag.

    For Illyrians we have to simply distinguish between:
    Proto-Illyrians
    Historical Illyrian people

    Even the Northern historical Illyrian and Pannonian, Liburnian and other people might have acquired at least some E-V13 at some point. Especially the Pannonian groups pretty much so, because they had a strong impact from Channelled Ware/Gáva, Thraco-Cimmerians, Bosut-Basarabi, Thraco-Scythian groups etc., all expected to have significant E-V13.

  24. #1599
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    We already covered the difference between Proto-Illyrians and Illyrians. We’re on the same page on that.

    The point I’m trying to make is who we decide to call Illyrian by language. The J2b2 was a local population compared to the apparently later E-V13 migration, so you’re automatically saying that the Illyrian language is way older in the Balkans than previously thought.

    In this context you could even say that the J2b2 Illyrian predate even the Mycenaeans/Early Hellenes. Why else would they spread so far South during the Iron Age, exactly when the E-V13 starts to migrate into the Balkans?

    Another interesting fact is why Appian considers the commonly known Thracian Maedi as Illyrians with their Maedus progenitor. Was it the E-V13 expanding West and South or the J2b2 expanding South-East? It doesn’t make sense that both haplogroups were at the peak of their power at the same time and were competing for dominance exactly at the same time.

    To me it’s more likely that the expanding North-Central Balkan E-V13 ended up North and North-West of Macedonians and those were the first ones to be known as Illyrians.

    Why would a Thracian E-V13 people at the peak of their power drop their language in favour of Illyrian yet retain their material culture (North of Makedonia) and don’t adopt the Glasinac-Mati one?

    For disclosure, I’m not trying to monopolize the Proto-Illyrians as I’m probably carrying more local West Balkan Autosomal DNA than the later coming E-V13 related Gava/Psenichevo/Carpathian (whatever you want to call them) autosomal DNA.

    Even Matzinger (whom I don’t idolize much) came to the conclusion that Coastal modern Albania and Montenegro spoke a non-Albanoid Adriatic language. Perhaps they didn’t speak Illyrian either but some later extinct J2b2 related language. The Liburnians and Venetic languages should help us bring more light into this possibility.

  25. #1600
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    The Illyrians came in the MBA most likely, down from an area close to the Alps-Adriatic zone. We don't know details yet, but either that or they were more regionalised and just allied up with the incoming Middle Danubian TC/UF people (R-L2 dominated), after initially suffering from them.

    The Thracian and Illyrian tribes were in constant competition, among themselves and with each other. Like the Triballi seem to have assimilated the Illyrians, being largely Thracian, the opposite happened in the Srem group and with Dardanians. It wasn't the same and the Illyrians seem to have had enormous pressure from the North West still, which caused whole tribes to migrate and push each other. That way some just ended up invading former Thracian lands, where they could. And if ending up dominant, they "made" these territories Illyrian.

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