Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[torzio]

The Illyrians came in the MBA most likely, down from an area close to the Alps-Adriatic zone. We don't know details yet, but either that or they were more regionalised and just allied up with the incoming Middle Danubian TC/UF people (R-L2 dominated), after initially suffering from them.

The Thracian and Illyrian tribes were in constant competition, among themselves and with each other. Like the Triballi seem to have assimilated the Illyrians, being largely Thracian, the opposite happened in the Srem group and with Dardanians. It wasn't the same and the Illyrians seem to have had enormous pressure from the North West still, which caused whole tribes to migrate and push each other. That way some just ended up invading former Thracian lands, where they could. And if ending up dominant, they "made" these territories Illyrian.

we see superior Illyrian tribes , pushing smaller or inferior Illyrian tribes further south over time

the 2 main Illyrian tribes in Albania where originally in Montenegro

Enchelai and Taulanti lived together near modern Budva Montenegro , before fleeing to Albania
Cadmus was the conqueror and ruler of the Greek province of Boeotia and, when he was exiled from the city of Thebes, together with his wife Harmonia, he found refuge with an Illyrian tribe called the Enchelei. According to the legend, Cadmus arrived with a team of oxen, which is where Budva got its name from (bous is Greek for ox).
The Periplus of Pseudo-Skylax from the 4th century BC, mentions the Enchelei as an Illyrian tribe on the Adriatic coast in modern-day Montenegro.

and the Taulanti replaced the Bryges in North Albania...................the Bryges headed East and also North-East

Durres and Appolonia where never Illyrian , they always remained Corinthian Greek as they began from circa 700BC , they remained Greek until the Roman occupation during the 2nd Punic war

[torzio]

@Riverman and @Hawk

I agree with every evidence that you brought up, but I’m not drawing linguistic conclusions yet. Even aDNA won’t clear things up for us as they’ll just point to differences among Western Balkan tribes. That’s it.

When we talk of tribes/ethnicities, language is the main factor and my point is that the #1 Illyrians are those that lived next to Makedon (even inside the later bigger kingdom of Makedon). Arnisa, a Makedonian city, was initially an Illyrian (possibly Taulantian) city.

The further they lived from the Makedonians and Hellenes, the less we can be sure of their ethnic identity and language.

Then we have the Roman time identification of “Illyrii proprie dicti”. That fact that they specified “proper Illyrians” is a big indication in my opinion. I haven’t heard of Graeci proprie dicti, Galii proprie dicti, etc.

Therefore, it’s enough to find E-V13 in Iron Age Albania to prove that “proper Illyrians” had E-V13 and those Illyroid/Illyric/possibly Illyrianized people of Bosnia and its surroundings need to find a new name during the Bronze and Early Iron Age. They’re “similar to proper Illyrians” only during the Roman-Illyrian Wars or the The Great Illyrian revolt.

To concluse, the candidates of real Illyrians by order are:

1. Those near the Makedonians and near Corcyra, Apollonia and Dyrrhachium
2. Those in North Albania and Montenegro, around Skodra and Rhison
3. Those in Western Dardania, but historically linked to those near the Makedonians around South-Eastern Albania and further
4. Those in Liburnia, Northern Dalmatia, and Pannonia

Illyrii proprie dicti refers only to Illyrians which where not celtinized, in customs, Tattoos and dress

your #1 ..............Corcyra ( Corfu ) was Liburnian from circa 1000BC until 733BC when it was conquered by the Corinthian Greeks......these Greeks created Apollonia and Dyrrhachium on the Albanian coast and remained Greek until the macedonian occupation...........they became Roman cities during the 2nd punic war.

[Dushman]

Yes, Strabo 700 years after the events knew exactly which Illyrian seafaring people controlled Korkyra.

@Riverman
Not disagreeing with you on the possibility, but that’s a lot speculation.

[mount123]

According to one of Rrenjet admins gjergj one sample from Early Bronze Age Albania is R1b-M269>PF7562, one from Middle Bronze Age Albania is J2b2-L283.

And he said that he expects E-V13 in Early Iron Age Albania, i don't know in what sense he said, whether he knows something or it's just his personal prediction.

Are these due to be published in the upcoming Southern Arch paper? If so, that would be interesting since there are supposedly 10 samples from Albania (no regional/time specification yet, as far as I know).

[Hawk]

Are these due to be published in the upcoming Southern Arch paper? If so, that would be interesting since there are supposedly 10 samples from Albania (no regional/time specification yet, as far as I know).

Not quite sure, but it looks like it. Southern Arch paper or let's say one of the three split papers from Southern Arch. They split because probably it was too huge of a paper and different contexts to include in a single release.

[Archetype0ne]

Nice to hear about what happened to Southern Arch paper, really lost touch there for a bit, first it was its out in a month, then radio silence and some publisher changes, but now it makes sense.
Also 10 samples from Albania is not bad at all, given these are the very first batch ever, as far as I know.

[enter_tain]

I hope some of those samples are at least from 500 BC onwards... I don't want to have to explain to people that Mesolithic Hunter Gatherers or something are not "Illyrian".

[enter_tain]

The point I’m trying to make is who we decide to call Illyrian by language.

That's a very easy answer. Who did the Greeks and Romans call Illyrian? If a population wasn't called that during that time or that place, then they're not it. It's that simple.

Every other sample can be Illyrian-related, but it's just speculation.

Durres and Appolonia where never Illyrian

They were Corinthian colonies on Illyrian soil. Every historian agrees on that, and even ancient Greeks wrote that they were located in Illyria.

From the evidence we have we actually have Greeks and Illyrians living in the cities, and later Romans as well.

[torzio]

That's a very easy answer. Who did the Greeks and Romans call Illyrian? If a population wasn't called that during that time or that place, then they're not it. It's that simple.

Every other sample can be Illyrian-related, but it's just speculation.



They were Corinthian colonies on Illyrian soil. Every historian agrees on that, and even ancient Greeks wrote that they were located in Illyria.

From the evidence we have we actually have Greeks and Illyrians living in the cities, and later Romans as well.

The Romans called nobody as Illyrian ...................even in the Great Illyrian revolt, they named the opposing tribes




Illyricum was a name they used to administer people that spoke the same language ............basically there was no illyrian in Roman eyes, there where Pannonians or Dalmatians, Liburnians etc

like as an example, region ten ( Venetic and Histria ) same language

[PaleoRevenge]

Are you illiterate? Modern Albanians are on that circle. Check the map. They're right next to the ancient Greek samples. Literally the same DNA + some extra Slavic (from R1a, branches of I2a, etc...).

Greeks and Albanians overlap, this has been known for decades now. This is not news. You keep clutching to this like you discovered something or it proves your fantasies about we wuzz Alex of Macedon.

Mate, wtf are you talking about? They just sent like like 50+ samples from Albania for DNA testing to Oxford. They already did the carbon dating (from 3rd century to 4th century). No one is "hiding" anything.

Thank God we have you the unbiased intellectual to write us fanfics about our Y-DNAs. Those biased Albanians that collaborate with some of the biggest universities in the world are just propagandists.

I'm talking about Komani-Kruja remains, which are off limits for genetic testing. If we test the Komani remains, and they all come out J2b with some R1b, the whole "we wuz Illyrian and kangs" house of cards of collapses.

[Archetype0ne]

Greeks and Albanians overlap, this has been known for decades now. This is not news. You keep clutching to this like you discovered something or it proves your fantasies about we wuzz Alex of Macedon.




I'm talking about Komani-Kruja remains, which are off limits for genetic testing. If we test the Komani remains, and they all come out J2b with some R1b, the whole "we wuz Illyrian and kangs" house of cards of collapses.

Why would that be the conclusion though? How does that negate anything about Illyrians?

[enter_tain]

Greeks and Albanians overlap, this has been known for decades now. This is not news. You keep clutching to this like you discovered something or it proves your fantasies about we wuzz Alex of Macedon.




I'm talking about Komani-Kruja remains, which are off limits for genetic testing. If we test the Komani remains, and they all come out J2b with some R1b, the whole "we wuz Illyrian and kangs" house of cards of collapses.

The only thing that's gonna collapse is your "we wuz EV-13 Dardanians" pile of horse manure.

If Greeks and Albanians overlap (and more than that. pretty much identical), and Greeks are heavy in EV-13, there is no reason Albanians wouldn't have it.

You suck at understanding proto-populations =/= modern populations. Otherwise, all Europeans would be RZ2103 like the Yamnaya.

[enter_tain]

Why would that be the conclusion though? How does that negate anything about Illyrians?

He's convinced the "Proto-Albanians" are this mythical LOTR pure EV-13 people who came from the Central Balkans, and mixed with Illyrians.

Just random Kosovar nationalist garbage. EV-13/J2B2 ratio is the highest in the south. It should be in the north if that was the case. J2B2 is the highest precisely in the areas up north.

[Archetype0ne]

TBH I try to stay out of this nonsense. The - we are more Albanian than you bs going on in this forum. It is getting tiresome for me I can only imagine for the foreign community. It's really absurd and repetitive. I think in the years to come when we get more pieces of the puzzle like the missing E-V13 right now all these conversations are going to be a cringe inducing memory to everyone engaged in them. By the time Albanian ethnos was crystalized under Skenderbeg these haplos were core to the nationality, so there is no use debating anything in my book.

[Riverman]

Clearly, E-V13, J-L283 and R-Z2103 lived at least close to each others latest since 900 BC.
That predates the modern Albanians, even the Proto-Albanians by a bit.
J-L283 is higher in the North because the Proto-Illyrians came from the North West, possibly at a time E-V13 with Channelled Ware and Yamnaya-KMK related R-Z2103 was already in place. They met between Montenegro, North Albania, Kosovo, Southern Serbia and Macedonia between 1.100-900 BC.

[PaleoRevenge]

Clearly, E-V13, J-L283 and R-Z2103 lived at least close to each others latest since 900 BC.
That predates the modern Albanians, even the Proto-Albanians by a bit.
J-L283 is higher in the North because the Proto-Illyrians came from the North West, possibly at a time E-V13 with Channelled Ware and Yamnaya-KMK related R-Z2103 was already in place. They met between Montenegro, North Albania, Kosovo, Southern Serbia and Macedonia between 1.100-900 BC.

Riverman you are trying to placate people, by giving each one as a good parent a toy, here some Illyrian for you, some Macedonian for Timmy, etc... but describing Albanians as some ancient creole population that belonged to no culture horizon is even more horrible outcome. And not a great explanation. Such populations with no real identity will not survive any migration crisis, and would more willingly assimilate into imperial identity. The creole explanation would better fit the Vlach/Romanians formation.

The Komani-Kruja culture of 600-900AD (compassing roughly from Montenegrin border to western lake Ohrid), is a urban culture, not pastoral like the early Albanian, people lived in fixed settlements. First inconsistency. Literary inscriptions found are in Latin, suggesting a Latin speaking population lived in this cultural horizan. There are Latin toponyms concentrated in this cultural horizon that are of Dalmatian/Illyrian Latin not Vulgar Latin, and for them to exists in today's Albanian would mean they were inherited from a pre-Albanian population which spoke Illyrian/Dalmatian Latin. We are not dealing here with a Albanian speaking population, and we have to identify who they were. All this points to J2b(with some R1b fellow travelers). Kruja-Komani and linguistic evidence strongly points to Albanian speech not being native to the area, it came from the speculated Nish-Shtip homeland.

To sum up the chronology, North Albania was a refuge area for Illyrians after the Slavic invasions. Later around 900 AD, early Albanians(E-V13 and R1b) settle in the core zone of this culture suppressing and pushing the J2b clades along the banks of Drin river. Around 1300 AD the two populations begin to merge as one(unify against Serbian pressure I assume), the process was finalized by Ottoman invasion (lots of destruction and shuffling of populations). To this day J2b is strongest among frontier Ghegs, recoiled like a serpent around Drin river and it's tributaries.

The people you are trying to placate are arguing linear decent from Bronze Age. If there was no DNA science they would argue times immemorial. They do think they evolved out of the rocks of their villages and when you point out inconsistencies they get offended and defensive, as if you are stealing something from them.

[Excine]

TBH I try to stay out of this nonsense. The - we are more Albanian than you bs going on in this forum. It is getting tiresome for me I can only imagine for the foreign community. It's really absurd and repetitive. I think in the years to come when we get more pieces of the puzzle like the missing E-V13 right now all these conversations are going to be a cringe inducing memory to everyone engaged in them. By the time Albanian ethnos was crystalized under Skenderbeg these haplos were core to the nationality, so there is no use debating anything in my book.

Perfectly said.

[PaleoRevenge]

Why would that be the conclusion though? How does that negate anything about Illyrians?

I just posted an explanation to Riverman, but what I am pointing out has already been discussed, you should read all the posts on the thread. I am not making things up to be a smartass.

What do you mean with your second question? If E-V13 along with some branches of R1b is a late comer to north Albania, do you really not see the giant hole in this Illyrian chest beating? This embarrassing tard parades along the internet? We are the most ancient, Alex the Great, yeah that was me. It's one giant slap to the tard movement that has hijacked Albanian identity.

[torzio]

The Roman split of Illyicum ...........pre the Great Illyrian revolt

The black area they eventually named initially part of Illyricum, then changed after the revolt

[PaleoRevenge]

The only thing that's gonna collapse is your "we wuz EV-13 Dardanians" pile of horse manure.

If Greeks and Albanians overlap (and more than that. pretty much identical), and Greeks are heavy in EV-13, there is no reason Albanians wouldn't have it.

You suck at understanding proto-populations =/= modern populations. Otherwise, all Europeans would be RZ2103 like the Yamnaya.

I am not suggesting a Dardanian, the Kosovar members are doing that, and they do it for similar reasons as you, they want to anchor as closely to ancient Illyria as possible. I am open to the best candidate, it could easily further east, a Mysian tribe, we have no clear answer because it is frawned upon by the low IQ masses that are easily herded by Rilindja komuniste of Rama & Co. I don't think it's a very rough task, just heavily suppressed. Testing Komani-Kruja skeletons would answer this really fast.

If you go to Africa and procreate with bushman, 20 generation later, your J2b decedent would cluster with the local bushman, it does not mean J2b is a ancient bushman haplogroup.
Greek E-V13, was not present in Mycenaean, so it's a late comer into the game, you don't know when it entered Greece and which direction. Making straight lines in a graph between two points, is not predicting, that's some chimpanzee level ability.

And, you should wait until we get autosomal DNA from other parts of Iron Age Balkans, that would clear up geneflow and DNA component. One thing is clear, Illyrian autosomal DNA is lacking among Albanians, only some northern Ghegs have some north-western Italian pull, J2b heritage.

[Riverman]

Riverman you are trying to placate people, by giving each one as a good parent a toy, here some Illyrian for you, some Macedonian for Timmy, etc... but describing Albanians as some ancient creole population that belonged to no culture horizon is even more horrible outcome. And not a great explanation. Such populations with no real identity will not survive any migration crisis, and would more willingly assimilate into imperial identity. The creole explanation would better fit the Vlach/Romanians formation.

The Komani-Kruja culture of 600-900AD (compassing roughly from Montenegrin border to western lake Ohrid), is a urban culture, not pastoral like the early Albanian, people lived in fixed settlements. First inconsistency. Literary inscriptions found are in Latin, suggesting a Latin speaking population lived in this cultural horizan. There are Latin toponyms concentrated in this cultural horizon that are of Dalmatian/Illyrian Latin not Vulgar Latin, and for them to exists in today's Albanian would mean they were inherited from a pre-Albanian population which spoke Illyrian/Dalmatian Latin. We are not dealing here with a Albanian speaking population, and we have to identify who they were. All this points to J2b(with some R1b fellow travelers). Kruja-Komani and linguistic evidence strongly points to Albanian speech not being native to the area, it came from the speculated Nish-Shtip homeland.

To sum up the chronology, North Albania was a refuge area for Illyrians after the Slavic invasions. Later around 900 AD, early Albanians(E-V13 and R1b) settle in the core zone of this culture suppressing and pushing the J2b clades along the banks of Drin river. Around 1300 AD the two populations begin to merge as one(unify against Serbian pressure I assume), the process was finalized by Ottoman invasion (lots of destruction and shuffling of populations). To this day J2b is strongest among frontier Ghegs, recoiled like a serpent around Drin river and it's tributaries.

The people you are trying to placate are arguing linear decent from Bronze Age. If there was no DNA science they would argue times immemorial. They do think they evolved out of the rocks of their villages and when you point out inconsistencies they get offended and defensive, as if you are stealing something from them.

Nobody really knows at this point, but fact is that there was a wide stretch of land, and modern Albanians are directly in that zone, in which Proto-Illyrian J-L283 and the earlier groups (Thracian E-V13, Phrygian/Brygian R-Z2103 as the main haplogroups?) met. This means we have this mixture of linages minimum 1.000 years before the Antiquity Proto-Albanians were around. They surely assimilated people then too, like some Vlach lineages, some Roman, Greek, Slavic etc., but the basic, main lineages of E-V13, J-L283 and R-Z2103 are very likely to have been close by and intermixed before.
If you want to have E-V13 + R-Z2103 as the primary markers, you have to assume an origin from Thracians or Bryges. Basically, that's primarily a linguistic debate, because then you would have to prove a Thracian origin for Proto-Albanian, instead of an Illyrian one, which would connect with J-L283.
Fact is also that various people existed in the region, which united these groups, like the Srem group = Illyrians with Thracian substrate, Triballi = Thracians with Illyrian influences, Dardanians = Illyrians with Thracian substrate elements.
That alone is quite telling as to how long these people intermixed in the Central Balkans.

[torzio]

The conventus in Scardona and the other Dalmatian conventus Scardona grew on the mouth of the Krka (Titius) River, and it was a major mercantile port which linked the coastal part of Liburnia with its hinterland. It was also a Liburnian city with a powerful indigenous element, which was situated at the boundary between the Liburnian and Delmataean parts of Dalmatia, so it is not surprising that a conventus was in fact seated here. The connection of the two fragments of this monument has revealed certain new aspects of the inscription.
Thus “some” conventus dedicated in Scardona, which is known from Pliny to have been the seat of a conventus. Because of this, the usage of the term conventus Scardonis.
The conventus name which begins with the letter L additionally reinforces the logic of the interpretation of this name connected with the Liburni or Liburnia. Our hypothesis, therefore, is that the name of the conventus was conventus Liburnorum, or the conventus of the Liburni. Before explaining this hypothesis in full, we shall go over some of the facts about the conventus system in Dalmatia.For the conventus it may be said that these were administrative districts, and their seats were visited by the peregrines to resolve legal and administrative affairs. The imperial cult was also particularly promoted in these cities, which additionally simplified the legal jurisdiction of the province.
In the administrative sense, the territory of Dalmatia was divided into three conventus in the first century, with their seats in Scardona, Salona and Narona.
There are theories that the conventus with the seat in Scardona corresponded to the territory of the Liburnian and Iapodian prefectures, i.e., the military administration of this territory during the Great Revolt in 6-9 AD.
The conventus in Dalmatia were, it would appear, established in order to enable control of the non-Roman communities and peoples living there. The sole Roman-era source that mentions the
conventus system in Dalmatia is Pliny the Elder, whose very meagre, but valuable report on these territories recounts the conventus to which the nations, peregrine communities and their cities in Dalmatia belonged.
From Pliny, we learn that the nations and peregrine communities of Liburnia were not sub-divided among themselves into decuriae, which was the case with the nations and communities in the other two conventus. It is generally believed that the division into decuriae was the poorer option for the peregrine population, since many smaller communities were quite likely merged with larger ones in this division, thus losing their ethnic and cultural identity.
The capital city of Dalmatia and the seat of the Salonitan conventus was Salona, in which the governor had his seat.

[torzio]

After the quelling of the revolt in Illyricum in 9 AD and the division of this province, very likely into Illyricum Superior and Inferior initially, the imperial cult was introduced at the regional level in Illyricum Superior, later Dalmatia. This level implied worship of the cult of a living emperor by the peregrine communities gathered around a single religious hub in each of the conventus in order to more rapidly implement acceptance of the newly-established Roman rule among the indigenous population.

This was still a time when the imperial cult was not yet divided into the central (Roman), provincial and municipal cults at the state level.

The best testimony to the regional imperial cult in Dalmatia was found on Liburnian soil, where the epigraphic monuments inform us that this cult was practiced on the altar of the Liburni (ara Augusti Liburnorum) that was located in Scardona.

The terms sacerdos Liburnorum, ara Augusti Liburnorum and civitates Liburniae confirm this. This is why we believe that the word conventus in this inscription was truly followed by the name of the Liburni, the dominant people between the Raša and Krka Rivers. Pliny mentioned that the Liburnian and Iapodian peregrine communities belonged to this conventus Liburnian communities constituted civitates, and they were jointly known under the name Liburni; it is asserted that the Iapodian communities, however, were not involved in the regional imperial veneration,
and there were no epigraphic confirmations of them in this context. The use of the common ethnonym in the context of the regional imperial cult has been demonstrated by the already mentioned phrases sacerdos Liburnorum and ara Augusti Liburnorum, while the understanding of the territorial unit to which the peregrine communities belonged was expressed by the term
civitates Liburniae. Since this is a representative public inscription, it was most likely installed on a building vital to the Liburnian peregrine communities that exercised their rights in the seat of this
conventus, Scardona. Pursuant to all of the aforementioned points, we have chosen to restore the crucial part of the inscription as conventus Liburnorum, while we deem the phrases
conventus Liburniae and conventus Liburnicus as less likely.

[torzio]

contradiction ??? ....same people ???

Pliny mentioned that the Liburnian and Iapodian peregrine communities belonged to this conventus Liburnian communities constituted civitates

[PaleoRevenge]

Nobody really knows at this point, but fact is that there was a wide stretch of land, and modern Albanians are directly in that zone, in which Proto-Illyrian J-L283 and the earlier groups (Thracian E-V13, Phrygian/Brygian R-Z2103 as the main haplogroups?) met. This means we have this mixture of linages minimum 1.000 years before the Antiquity Proto-Albanians were around. They surely assimilated people then too, like some Vlach lineages, some Roman, Greek, Slavic etc., but the basic, main lineages of E-V13, J-L283 and R-Z2103 are very likely to have been close by and intermixed before.
If you want to have E-V13 + R-Z2103 as the primary markers, you have to assume an origin from Thracians or Bryges. Basically, that's primarily a linguistic debate, because then you would have to prove a Thracian origin for Proto-Albanian, instead of an Illyrian one, which would connect with J-L283.
Fact is also that various people existed in the region, which united these groups, like the Srem group = Illyrians with Thracian substrate, Triballi = Thracians with Illyrian influences, Dardanians = Illyrians with Thracian substrate elements.
That alone is quite telling as to how long these people intermixed in the Central Balkans.

Linguistic evidence is pretty clear, Albanian came east of Albania, post Roman collapse. Kruja-Komani culture seem to be Latin speaking Illyrians. If you want to assume proto-Albanians already were loaded with J2b, than it means they replaced the Komani-kruja (J2b) people and brought their own J2b. I can't support that type of explanation.

Among Ghegs themselves, J2b is in high frequency in frontier areas(excluding the Tosk-Gheg frontier which is a low point for Ghegs). J2b has similar story to I2a-Din in south Albania, an assimilated frontier population.

The Albanians that migrated south, did not carry any noticeable presence of J2b. J2b is very low among Tosk, Arvanites and Arberesh, strongly suggesting it was not a early Albanian haplogroup.