Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 66 of 75 FirstFirst ... 16566465666768 ... LastLast
Results 1,626 to 1,650 of 1855

Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

  1. #1626
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,383

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    If you go to Africa and procreate with bushman, 20 generation later, your J2b decedent would cluster with the local bushman, it does not mean J2b is a ancient bushman haplogroup.
    Greek E-V13, was not present in Mycenaean, so it's a late comer into the game, you don't know when it entered Greece and which direction. Making straight lines in a graph between two points, is not predicting, that's some chimpanzee level ability.

    And, you should wait until we get autosomal DNA from other parts of Iron Age Balkans, that would clear up geneflow and DNA component. One thing is clear, Illyrian autosomal DNA is lacking among Albanians, only some northern Ghegs have some north-western Italian pull, J2b heritage.
    In the latest Urnfield paper from March 2022: https://link.springer.com/article/10...63-022-09164-0

    Authors explicitely state that the originators of Urnfield way came from Carpathian mountains and the earliers adopters are either directly or indirectly related to E-V13 Psenicevo-Babadag (by Carpathian mountains it means the general Channeled-Ware and interrelated phenomena) leaks which is considered an Eastern Hallstatt cultural hemisphere.



    And one of the earliest adopters are Zuto Brdo-Grla Mare culture from North-East Serbia/South-West Romania, these participated in the so called Aegean migration during Bronze to Iron Age transition in Greece where we see the increase of cremation burials. So, i believe most of E-V13 in Greece entered during this period.

    Authors also mention and do believe the cremation burial was a burial initially originating from a Neolithic survivor population which was devastated by Yersinia Pestis plague, initially it acted as a preventive thing and then it got transformed into a ritual/religious belief on burials.

  2. #1627
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    26-11-16
    Posts
    139


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    In the latest Urnfield paper from March 2022: https://link.springer.com/article/10...63-022-09164-0

    Authors explicitely state that the originators of Urnfield way came from Carpathian mountains and the earliers adopters are either directly or indirectly related to E-V13 Psenicevo-Babadag (by Carpathian mountains it means the general Channeled-Ware and interrelated phenomena) leaks which is considered an Eastern Hallstatt cultural hemisphere.



    And one of the earliest adopters are Zuto Brdo-Grla Mare culture from North-East Serbia/South-West Romania, these participated in the so called Aegean migration during Bronze to Iron Age transition in Greece where we see the increase of cremation burials. So, i believe most of E-V13 in Greece entered during this period.

    Authors also mention and do believe the cremation burial was a burial initially originating from a Neolithic survivor population which was devastated by Yersinia Pestis plague, initially it acted as a preventive thing and then it got transformed into a ritual/religious belief on burials.
    Very nice Hawk, it would be interesting to know which particular Greek group can be associated with this migration, ie where they initially settled in Greece. E-V13, is very prolific. It opens branch everywhere.

  3. #1628
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    1,502


    Country: Austria



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Authors also mention and do believe the cremation burial was a burial initially originating from a Neolithic survivor population which was devastated by Yersinia Pestis plague, initially it acted as a preventive thing and then it got transformed into a ritual/religious belief on burials.
    The paper is important, as it correctly points to the great importance of the Carpathian basin for the evolution of the Urnfield phenomenon, but it has some flaws as well.

    This argument is probably no flaw, but its not safe. Because "funnily", some authors argue that some of the "ritual pits" in which body burials appear even in the cremation horizon of the Thracians, might be attributed to victims of a plague. Therefore it would be, in some cases, exactly the circumstances which are supposed to have caused the rite, which prevent them from doing it (later).
    While that's possible, it could be some inconsistency of the argument as such.

    I rather tend to see the cleaning fire rite related to a religious theory and belief, associated with the sun and heaven. The solar symbols are very widespread in Pre-Gva and Gva related cultures as well.

    But it might be not possilbe to really know the motives. What's for sure is, in any case, they just did it.

  4. #1629
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    2,916

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The Roman split of Illyicum ...........pre the Great Illyrian revolt

    The black area they eventually named initially part of Illyricum, then changed after the revolt

    percentages of fighting men / population

    4th Conventus...ie...southern Illyrian ( proper illyrians as stated by some ) = 14.6%

    Narona Conventus = 26.0%

    Salona Conventus = 44.8%

    Scardona conventus = 14.6%


    I did not include any Pannonians
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

  5. #1630
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    2,916

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Very nice Hawk, it would be interesting to know which particular Greek group can be associated with this migration, ie where they initially settled in Greece. E-V13, is very prolific. It opens branch everywhere.

    History states that the Corinthian Greeks settled in north Albania and Corfu...............the Spartans in Taranto area Italy ...........and the some Boetians Thessalian Greeks settled in Montenegro

  6. #1631
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    424

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Later around 900 AD, early Albanians(E-V13 and R1b) settle in the core zone
    You are so uneducated on this topic, it's quite frankly embarrassing. Geg/Tosk split around Shkumbin around 400-500 AD. The split predates Slavic contact.

    Their characteristics[17][18] in the treatment of both native words and loanwords provide evidence that the split into the northern and the southern dialects occurred after Christianisation of the region (4th century AD),[19][20] and most likely not later than the 5th–6th centuries AD,[21][22][23] hence occupying roughly their present area divided by the Shkumbin river since the Post-Roman and Pre-Slavic period, straddling the Jireček Line.[24][25][26]




  7. #1632
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    424

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    Albanians and Greeks pretty much share the same haplogroups and autosomal DNA. Albania has EV13 in the 20s, just like Greeks. But yeah, it's the "proto-Albanians" who brought EV-13. Completely brain dead.

  8. #1633
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-11-20
    Posts
    152

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-FT19186
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1c

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: United States



    5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Linguistic evidence is pretty clear, Albanian came east of Albania, post Roman collapse. Kruja-Komani culture seem to be Latin speaking Illyrians. If you want to assume proto-Albanians already were loaded with J2b, than it means they replaced the Komani-kruja (J2b) people and brought their own J2b. I can't support that type of explanation.

    Among Ghegs themselves, J2b is in high frequency in frontier areas(excluding the Tosk-Gheg frontier which is a low point for Ghegs). J2b has similar story to I2a-Din in south Albania, an assimilated frontier population.

    The Albanians that migrated south, did not carry any noticeable presence of J2b. J2b is very low among Tosk, Arvanites and Arberesh, strongly suggesting it was not a early Albanian haplogroup.
    J-L283 comprises about 30% of Timacum Minus in late antiquity. Tim Minus is in the far east of Serbia. Wherever you want to assume Proto-Albanian-speakers were, in eastern Serbia or right in the middle of the Mat valley, they're going to have J-L283. It's as simple as that.

  9. #1634
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,383

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    J-L283 comprises about 30% of Timacum Minus in late antiquity. Tim Minus is in the far east of Serbia. Wherever you want to assume Proto-Albanian-speakers were, in eastern Serbia or right in the middle of the Mat valley, they're going to have J-L283. It's as simple as that.
    I posted grave classifications here from Serbian archaeologists and they think that those J2b2-L283 graves are either Numeri Dalmatorum, Dardanians. I think chances that they were Dalmatian Roman warriors is pretty high.

    Yet, you see no grave classifications in Viminacium of Numeri Dalmatorum and you see not a single J2b2-L283 there.

  10. #1635
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-21
    Posts
    363


    Country: Kosovo



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I posted grave classifications here from Serbian archaeologists and they think that those J2b2-L283 graves are either Numeri Dalmatorum, Dardanians. I think chances that they were Dalmatian Roman warriors is pretty high.

    Yet, you see no grave classifications in Viminacium of Numeri Dalmatorum and you see not a single J2b2-L283 there.
    He learned this whataboutistic pseudo argument from Bruzmi. There is one younger confirmed clade under Z631 in those without a doubt Numeri Dalmatorum. The pathway of J2b-L283 when it comes to the Balkans by all evidence is Western. It is absolutely obnoxious to suggest otherwise. As I have told your earlier with each Illyrian sample that will be added to the list it won't change the stubborn wishful thinking of some people; it is like talking to a wall. Add to that the fact that that they always and consciously miscount/falsify the evidence of the importance of J2b-L283 for the Illyrian ethnogenesis.

    This is clearly due to personal reasons: one of them is a Kelmendas the other you were just answering is from Malesia so they have that "we are Pelasgo-Illyrians" non sense propaganda deeply engraved in their minds; it is a losing game since they will always repeat the same non sense.

    Notice how the latest early Iapygian from Grotta Delle Mura, Italy_BronzeAge, J2b2a1a1a1a1a1b, which corresponds to: J2b-L283>>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878, a J2b-L823 (so shocking ), and his clade were already hinted by the Posusje samples.

    These people will have a hard time with the other due to be published IA Illyrian samples from Bosnia, Croatia, Montenegro. We already have leaked evidence of MBA J2b-L283 presence in North Albania. Some might get their tissues ready...

  11. #1636
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    1,059

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133379
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Greeks and Albanians overlap, this has been known for decades now. This is not news. You keep clutching to this like you discovered something or it proves your fantasies about we wuzz Alex of Macedon.
    I'm talking about Komani-Kruja remains, which are off limits for genetic testing. If we test the Komani remains, and they all come out J2b with some R1b, the whole "we wuz Illyrian and kangs" house of cards of collapses.

    Collapse?? You do realize Komani is argued to be a symbiosis between Illyrians, Greco-Romans, Slavs, Avars, Huns etc right?

    Komani likely represents the late proto-Albanian ethnogensis which eventually solidified into the early medieval Albanians mentioned first the first time between the 9th-11th centuries.

    Komani is literally a recipe in the making and would demolish our neighbors lies. This is why Serbs, their sympathizers, anti-Albanians and even Albanian ignorants are so terrified at that prospect so they cling to Daco-Thracian nonsense. Anything to pull Albanians out of their homelands. And you wonder why it's forbidden to test those remains.

    Depending on the number of remains, Komani culture sites will have it all, from R1b, J2b-L283, E-V13 including R1a and I-Y3120.

    Albanians definitely carry some Daco-Thracian stock, but the overwhelming number of lineages and relation to Messapic are clear indicators of a Paleo-West Balkan origin for pre-proto-Albanians.

    Even if our language is not Illyrian, there is a large amount of support for Albanian representing a paleo-balkan tongue that likely developed close to their present territories.
    Illyrian language family could have been extensive with Proto-Albanian representing one branch.

    So, in summary, the discovery of those very lineages among others present in Albanians would fortify that house of cards, not collapse it.

  12. #1637
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-05-22
    Posts
    45


    Country: Ukraine



    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    J-L283 comprises about 30% of Timacum Minus in late antiquity. Tim Minus is in the far east of Serbia. Wherever you want to assume Proto-Albanian-speakers were, in eastern Serbia or right in the middle of the Mat valley, they're going to have J-L283. It's as simple as that.
    Yep. Pretty much this.

    It's funny how they are using some southern Albanians to claim it was not a proto-Albanian marker which would suggest it was only absorbed into Albanians
    after their spread into their present location in Albania, or after the whole dialect split. I wonder how such a thing would even be possible since we already also have J2b2-L283 in Albania itself, Croatia etc.

    Mat valley and the Shkumbin and the surrounding areas were also inhabited by various tribes Albanoi, Taulantii, Parthini and more north ''Abri'' . And they were all Illyrian.


    Just kidding about that last part. I think some Vlachs in Albania, Romania etc have J2b2-L283 too and EV-13.

  13. #1638
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-05-22
    Posts
    45


    Country: Ukraine



    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Greeks and Albanians overlap, this has been known for decades now. This is not news. You keep clutching to this like you discovered something or it proves your fantasies about we wuzz Alex of Macedon.




    I'm talking about Komani-Kruja remains, which are off limits for genetic testing. If we test the Komani remains, and they all come out J2b with some R1b, the whole "we wuz Illyrian and kangs" house of cards of collapses.
    How does it collapse exactly ? EV-13 is a haplo found across the Balkans and Europe and there were various people that settled Albania etc. It's more likely that some EV-13 branches is the result of foreigners being absorbed than J2b2 or R1b. Certainly would not collapse, you're just assuming proto-Albanians were mainly EV-13 without any factual evidence.

  14. #1639
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    1,059

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133379
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    The only thing that's gonna collapse is your "we wuz EV-13 Dardanians" pile of horse manure.

    If Greeks and Albanians overlap (and more than that. pretty much identical), and Greeks are heavy in EV-13, there is no reason Albanians wouldn't have it.

    You suck at understanding proto-populations =/= modern populations. Otherwise, all Europeans would be RZ2103 like the Yamnaya.
    To be fair, there is a greater diversity of E-V13 in Albanians than Greeks, and it's likely not to have entered Greece until the Iron Age with populations of the North. Presumably related to some Proto-Albanians.

    At least this goes for most Greek E-V13. Perhaps Epirotes carried a sizeable amount in their domain, splitting North and South from its nucleus.

    Most diversity of E-V13 center around west Balkans and not East. Of course those are dependent on collected samples more than anything else. However, u don't expect it to change.

  15. #1640
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-05-22
    Posts
    45


    Country: Ukraine



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Komani-Kruja representing a Latinized population certainly does not disprove the connection since Albanian shows Latin influence and more contact with Latin speakers during the Roman period rather than Greek. The Mat valley was the least exposed to Latin, and basically surrounded by this culture.

    The Komani-Kruja culture is an archaeological culture attested from late antiquity to the Middle Ages in central and northern Albania, southern Montenegro and similar sites in the western parts of North Macedonia
    Those areas could of been an Albanian homeland or where proto-Albanian was spoken or at least what survived of Albanian that did not entirely Latinize or Hellenize. Illyrians historically also lived in Southern Albania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimale

  16. #1641
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    1,059

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133379
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Clearly, E-V13, J-L283 and R-Z2103 lived at least close to each others latest since 900 BC.
    That predates the modern Albanians, even the Proto-Albanians by a bit.
    J-L283 is higher in the North because the Proto-Illyrians came from the North West, possibly at a time E-V13 with Channelled Ware and Yamnaya-KMK related R-Z2103 was already in place. They met between Montenegro, North Albania, Kosovo, Southern Serbia and Macedonia between 1.100-900 BC.
    It depends on what your definition of Proto-Albanian is. Because, Albanians already carried J2b-L283 l, E-V13 and R1b with diversity stretching mostly to the Iron Age and late Bronze Age. E-V13 diversity is mostly between 400-700BCE going by yfull. A couple branches with Albanians going back to the LBA.

    Most of these lineages including E-V13 and some minor ones as well, were already a part of pre/early proto-Albanians which is roughly from 1000BCE forward.

    The connection to Messapian, the finding of J2b-L283 in Illyrians and Daunians, and the heavy chunk of Latin influence in our language is a testament to a West Balkan origin of Proto-Albanian that solidified into the late proto/old Albanians of the early medieval within the Komani-Kruja cultural complex.

    There were surely other loosely related late Proto-Albanians groups that fell outside this development and merged later. Which can account for all the confusion.

    It sure as hell wasn't Daco-Thracian or in the Carpathians.

  17. #1642
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-05-22
    Posts
    45


    Country: Ukraine



    I support an origin in Albania of course as the core but I think there was also presence in Dardania and other surrounding areas, many adopted the Latin and Greek language. What survived of these people turned into Albanian and later ''Arbanon'' came to dominate Albania. Or there was a population contraction and then extraction in the last 1500 years, also causing a dialect split.

  18. #1643
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    1,059

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133379
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Riverman you are trying to placate people, by giving each one as a good parent a toy, here some Illyrian for you, some Macedonian for Timmy, etc... but describing Albanians as some ancient creole population that belonged to no culture horizon is even more horrible outcome. And not a great explanation. Such populations with no real identity will not survive any migration crisis, and would more willingly assimilate into imperial identity. The creole explanation would better fit the Vlach/Romanians formation.

    The Komani-Kruja culture of 600-900AD (compassing roughly from Montenegrin border to western lake Ohrid), is a urban culture, not pastoral like the early Albanian, people lived in fixed settlements. First inconsistency. Literary inscriptions found are in Latin, suggesting a Latin speaking population lived in this cultural horizan. There are Latin toponyms concentrated in this cultural horizon that are of Dalmatian/Illyrian Latin not Vulgar Latin, and for them to exists in today's Albanian would mean they were inherited from a pre-Albanian population which spoke Illyrian/Dalmatian Latin. We are not dealing here with a Albanian speaking population, and we have to identify who they were. All this points to J2b(with some R1b fellow travelers). Kruja-Komani and linguistic evidence strongly points to Albanian speech not being native to the area, it came from the speculated Nish-Shtip homeland.

    To sum up the chronology, North Albania was a refuge area for Illyrians after the Slavic invasions. Later around 900 AD, early Albanians(E-V13 and R1b) settle in the core zone of this culture suppressing and pushing the J2b clades along the banks of Drin river. Around 1300 AD the two populations begin to merge as one(unify against Serbian pressure I assume), the process was finalized by Ottoman invasion (lots of destruction and shuffling of populations). To this day J2b is strongest among frontier Ghegs, recoiled like a serpent around Drin river and it's tributaries.

    The people you are trying to placate are arguing linear decent from Bronze Age. If there was no DNA science they would argue times immemorial. They do think they evolved out of the rocks of their villages and when you point out inconsistencies they get offended and defensive, as if you are stealing something from them.
    This is utterly wrong in so many ways. It's really a shame to think someone could be so deluded. Or perhaps there's a clear agenda.

    The diversity of J2b-L283, E-V13 and R1b within Albanians stretches back to the LBA and Iron Age. They were present for all stages of the Proto-Albanian ethnogenesis. Actually J2b-L283 and R1b is far more diverse in Albanians that E-V13 which appears to encompass an Iron Age arrival.

    E-V13, and R1b didn't arrive in 900AD and absorb J2b-L283 in the 1300s. What in God's good name are you smoking?

    These lineages were already part of Proto-Albanians long before the latinuzation process started. Matter of fact E-V13 is more prevelant in latinized populations of the Balkans than J2b-L283 is. But that's something that seems to go over your "J2b-L283 are latinizied Illyrians" mumbo jumbo. With your E-V13/R1b Daco-Thraco-Trojo-Dardanian orig9n of Albanian nonsense.

  19. #1644
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    1,059

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133379
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Nobody really knows at this point, but fact is that there was a wide stretch of land, and modern Albanians are directly in that zone, in which Proto-Illyrian J-L283 and the earlier groups (Thracian E-V13, Phrygian/Brygian R-Z2103 as the main haplogroups?) met. This means we have this mixture of linages minimum 1.000 years before the Antiquity Proto-Albanians were around. They surely assimilated people then too, like some Vlach lineages, some Roman, Greek, Slavic etc., but the basic, main lineages of E-V13, J-L283 and R-Z2103 are very likely to have been close by and intermixed before.
    If you want to have E-V13 + R-Z2103 as the primary markers, you have to assume an origin from Thracians or Bryges. Basically, that's primarily a linguistic debate, because then you would have to prove a Thracian origin for Proto-Albanian, instead of an Illyrian one, which would connect with J-L283.
    Fact is also that various people existed in the region, which united these groups, like the Srem group = Illyrians with Thracian substrate, Triballi = Thracians with Illyrian influences, Dardanians = Illyrians with Thracian substrate elements.
    That alone is quite telling as to how long these people intermixed in the Central Balkans.
    I find it really nonsensical that people can just assign one haplogroup per population like they were some inbred buffoons.

    All these lineages were already present within Illyrians. Even if E-V13 was dominant in Thracians, it does not negate that E-V13 was already present in Illyrians where it was offset by more dominant J2b-L283.

    These lineages were probably present in all paleobalkan peoples to some degree. Dealing in absolutes is contrary to reality.

    Let's wait for those southern arch papers. E-V13 and R1b divided likely somewhere around Pannonia and E-V13 likely took two routes west and East.

    Claiming all E-V13 is Daco-Thracian will not have legs likely. The truth is there will be some subclades from Thracians and some from Illyrians.

    Because, these people were already mixed by the classical era that recorded their history. Assigning one haplogroup to a people makes zero sense.

  20. #1645
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    1,059

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133379
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Linguistic evidence is pretty clear, Albanian came east of Albania, post Roman collapse. Kruja-Komani culture seem to be Latin speaking Illyrians. If you want to assume proto-Albanians already were loaded with J2b, than it means they replaced the Komani-kruja (J2b) people and brought their own J2b. I can't support that type of explanation.

    Among Ghegs themselves, J2b is in high frequency in frontier areas(excluding the Tosk-Gheg frontier which is a low point for Ghegs). J2b has similar story to I2a-Din in south Albania, an assimilated frontier population.

    The Albanians that migrated south, did not carry any noticeable presence of J2b. J2b is very low among Tosk, Arvanites and Arberesh, strongly suggesting it was not a early Albanian haplogroup.
    Literal hogwash. You have no idea what you're saying. Do you know what Y-DNA diversity is? Because it sounds like you have no clue.

    A simple search would show you that diversity for J2b-L283 jn Albanians among other lineages goes back to the LBA and IA. So your timeline is completely off by 2+ millennia.

    Albanian is believed to be most related to Messapian, and J2b-L283 ancients in NW Balkans and Daunians seems to strengthen that fact.

    E-V13 is far more common in latinized Balkan populations than J2b-L283 is. But keep claiming J2b-L283 were just some latinized Balkan group that got assimilated only 700 years ago(how bizarre) by E-V13/R1b Thracian Albanians from the East Balkans.

    Sound like a Serbian fringe theory propagandist.

    News flash, all 3 bloodlines were already carried by Albanians since the LBA/IA. Regardless of whether they were Thracian or Illyrian, a ghost population or a mix thereof.

  21. #1646
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-21
    Posts
    363


    Country: Kosovo



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Albanian is believed to be most related to Messapian, and J2b-L283 ancients in NW Balkans and Daunians seems to strengthen that fact. E-V13 is far more common in latinized Balkan populations than J2b-L283 is. But keep claiming J2b-L283 were just some latinized Balkan group that got assimilated only 700 years ago(how bizarre) by E-V13/R1b Thracian Albanians from the East Balkans.
    Sound like a Serbian fringe theory propagandist.
    News flash, all 3 bloodlines were already carried by Albanians since the LBA/IA. Regardless of whether they were Thracian or Illyrian, a ghost population or a mix thereof.
    E1b-V13 is very common in Aromanians and other latinized East Balkan groups (they are semi-slavic now) because those don't have anything to do with Illyrians. What do latinized Illyrians (J2b-L283) have to do with latinized Daco-Thracians? Nothing at all.

    Sure sure your paternal line is, I assume, also pre Proto-Albanian, right?

  22. #1647
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    1,059

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133379
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    E1b-V13 is very common in Aromanians and other latinized East Balkan groups (they are semi-slavic now) because those don't have anything to do with Illyrians. What do latinized Illyrians (J2b-L283) have to do with latinized Daco-Thracians? Nothing at all.

    Sure sure your paternal line is, I assume, also pre Proto-Albanian, right?
    Unlike yourself, I have no delusions of grandeur about my Y-DNA. I know it mostly came from the North East with Slavic tribes and secondarily some other groups of Barbaricum in the early medieval.

    You on the other hand my Neo-Kosovan friend, seemed to have forgotten that your father and his father were Albanian. You can grasp at straws with your pet theories all you want.

    There is zero evidence Proto-Albanians were Thracian E-V13 inbred that "cucked" latinized Illyrians. They carried all those lineages already.

    Even a kid who can read at a 3rd grade level has enough common sense to understand phylogeny of these haplogroups and their diversity within a given population.

    If I didn't know any better I would have guessed you a Serb sympathizer. Half of the garbage out your mouth is spouted by their ilk regularly.

  23. #1648
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-21
    Posts
    363


    Country: Kosovo



    1 members found this post helpful.
    You and your fellow trolls use the same methodology: ignoring the previous user's valid point whilst making a whataboutistic off topic non evidential pseudo argument. Then you go on with your usual collection of ad hominems.

  24. #1649
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    1,059

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133379
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    You and your fellow trolls use the same methodology: ignoring the previous user's valid point whilst making a whataboutistic off topic non evidential pseudo argument. Then you go on with your usual collection of ad hominems.
    You literally dished out a slew of ad hominims on everyone and what valid point? What pseudoscientific argument?

    You clowns literally just said J2b-L283 has no diversity in Proto-Albanians and was absorbed in 1300CE.

    Do you clowns even look at the actual phylogeny and branch diversity? Both in highest number of branches, ages within the population, and their formation and most recent ancestor?
    The evidence is there for anyone to see.

    Pseudoscientific is your hogwash about J2b-L283 being latinized Illyrians that were later Albanianized by an Eastern population.

    My Y-DNA has no horse in this race. The actual evidence is quite clear. Most J2b-L283 found in Albanian populations stretch back to LBA/IA and so do R1b and lastly E-V13 with most of thst diversity within Albanian populations going from Iron Age onward.

    Look at the various trees, branches for yourself. These branches are highly diverse in Albanians regardless if they were further East. Proto-Albanians carried all 3. NW Balkam samples, Daunian samples, and a linguistic level the relation with Messapian all point to a West Balkan origin of Proto-Albanians. And you will see that E-V13 was quite diverse and versatile and not restricted to some inbred concept of "all E-V13 is Daco-Thracian"

    and stop spewing World of War craft fantasies.

  25. #1650
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    1,502


    Country: Austria



    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I find it really nonsensical that people can just assign one haplogroup per population like they were some inbred buffoons.
    All these lineages were already present within Illyrians. Even if E-V13 was dominant in Thracians, it does not negate that E-V13 was already present in Illyrians where it was offset by more dominant J2b-L283.
    These lineages were probably present in all paleobalkan peoples to some degree. Dealing in absolutes is contrary to reality.
    Let's wait for those southern arch papers. E-V13 and R1b divided likely somewhere around Pannonia and E-V13 likely took two routes west and East.
    Claiming all E-V13 is Daco-Thracian will not have legs likely. The truth is there will be some subclades from Thracians and some from Illyrians.
    Because, these people were already mixed by the classical era that recorded their history. Assigning one haplogroup to a people makes zero sense.
    The special thing about both E-V13 and J-L283 is that they had LBA-EIA founder effect series in different regions and with specific timings
    Both haplogroups grew rapidlyand beingnow widespread because they expanded Proto-Thracians (E-V13) and Proto-Illyrians (J-L283).
    Many other Neolithic and Bronze Age lineages of similar and larger size largely disappeared, but they grew with the success of the ethnicities and their descendants.
    Their fate was bound to those ethnicities in the LBA-EIA transition. Similar story, ended up in the same place and later ethnicities, but different origins and separated ethnicities with a lot of competition in the EIA-MIA.

Page 66 of 75 FirstFirst ... 16566465666768 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •