Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[PaleoRevenge]

The chances of him being Illyrian decent seem similar or better than the chances of Modern Greeks being Ancient ones or Modern Italians being Ancient Latin or Italic decent.


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As a haplgroup E individual, the best I can do for him is assign a janitor decent from Illyria, according to their own theories, low status slaves, being whipped around and forced to clean J2b Illyrian ships. I could also assign him a Thracian king status, but I don't want to insult the guy.

[Androgenica]

Excine, pretty much every Balkan thread ends up like this.

Anyways, I don't see why he's so infatuated with toilets in every reply. Maybe that's from where he is typing?

[Androgenica]

these cultures are classified as Eastern Hallstatt, Eastern Urnfielder groups by all archaeologists. Psenicevo is directly derived from Belegis-Gava/Gava Culture. We also have the Channeled-Ware/Kanellure/Fluted Ware incursion into Early Iron Age Macedonia, Albania, Northern Greece as well. Subclade TMRCA, aDNA leaks, burial rite of cremation of these people, everything points to that direction that E-V13 is to be linked with Gava and broader Eastern Urnfielder or Carpathian Urnfielder complexes. These group of people were extremely important during Bronze to Iron Age transition, hence the importance mimicks the E-V13 wide-Balkan presence, and to a degree Central European presence.

Whoops. Thought my reply to this went through. Thank you for the clarification, Hawk.

Bulgarians are one of the highest E-V13 South Slavs, so this theory makes sense at filling in the gaps.

[Dushman]

As a haplgroup E individual, the best I can do for him is assign a janitor decent from Illyria, according to their own theories, low status slaves, being whipped around and forced to clean J2b Illyrian ships. I could also assign him a Thracian king status, but I don't want to insult the guy.

Says that guy that hides his Y-DNA and praises I2a-Din South as a warrior and brave clade descended from the Bastarnae.

Are you an I2a “Greek” bro?

[Hawk]

I don't exclude the possibility that Koszider hoard part of Proto-Illyrians might have included E-V13 which was dragged by R1b-L51 Tumulus people, but that's just a speculation so far. We need proper Glasinac samples in order to conclude anything. Even, if that's true, they wouldn't account more than ~10% of Illyrians still. The vast majority were from Central-Southern Balkans tribes and Daco-Thracians.

[torzio]

What's so difficult to understand? For Matzinger, Albanian is a different language (not the same, not a linear descendant) from Illyrian AND closely related to it:
Matzinger (2018), Lexicon of Albanian, Handbook of Comparative and Historical Indo-European Linguistics
[....] Albanian cannot be regarded as an offspring of Illyrian or even Thracian but must be considered to be a modern continuation of some other undocumented Indo-European Balkan idiom. However, Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and also Messapic (a language spoken in Southern Italy in antiquity but originally of Balkan origin), which is why Albanian in some instances may shed some light on the explanation of Messapic as well as Illyrian words (see Matzinger 2005): (Messapic-) Oenotrian ῥινός ‘clouds’ ~ Old Geg rẽ, Old Tosk rē ‘cloud’, the Messapic gloss βρένδο- ‘stag’ and the place-name Brundisium (Italian Bríndisi) ~ Old Geg brĩ, or the name of the Illyrian tribe of the Taulantioi ~ Albanian dallëndyshe ‘swallow’ (see Eichner 2004: 10 f.).

Messapic language is Daunian language it came via Iapodes in the area where Croatia meets Slovenia .............it mixed with Local Italian language once arriving in Italy............its most populous users in Italy where the Daunians ( the biggest of the 3 tribes ) ...................more than 600 years past before it was used as a trade language between messapic Italy and Epirote lands.
It was not a pure Illyrian language after 600 years

[PaleoRevenge]

Says that guy that hides his Y-DNA and praises I2a-Din South as a warrior and brave clade descended from the Bastarnae.

Are you an I2a “Greek” bro?

I would have to know my own haplogroup to "hide" it. If I were to bet money on it, I would bet E, though not necessarily E-V13. I have no idea if anyone with my lineage has taken the test, is that data public like it used to be in the old project?

[Excine]

@Androgenica
Not quite, Bulgarians are not the South Slavs with the greatest E-V13; Montenegrins/Serbs of Montenegro and Macedonians are, respectively.
In reality, many E-V13 Bulgarians can trace their origin to Macedonia.

Montenegro: 26.48% https://www.poreklo.rs/2017/11/19/ge...ika-crne-gore/

Bulgaria: 18.1% http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779

Macedonia: 19% 'Y-chromosome diversity of the three major ethno-linguistic groups in the Republic of North Macedonia'




Regardless, Montenegro has the greatest proportion of E-V13 among all Balkan Slavs.

[Hawk]

Montenegrins have massive founder effects , clan based.

And it's completely unsound, never heard that majority of E-V13 Bulgarians have Macedonian origin. Doesn't make sense.

[Excine]

@Hawk

The E-V13 from Zadar is upstream from Dushmani and Vasojevici. E-V13 from Bulgaria has much less diversity than in Montenegro regardless of clans like Vasojevici and Kuci.



Check the individual story of all the E-V13 Bulgarian samples you can find online. You'll find that many of them come from Macedonia or Serbia.

[torzio]

User Bruzmi on anthrogenica has made a great response on the issue of the linguistic classification of Albanian. Maybe some members here can learn quite a bit about it :).

Clearly, some individuals on this forum are irritated and ignorant of what linguists are truly saying. Matzinger, who entirely dismisses a Thracian or Dacian origin for Albanian, despite being one of the more controversial scholars discussed on this forum. Despite this, the E-V13 dilemma has led users to incessantly clutch at baseless Dacian or Thracian origins for the Albanian language.

from the same book you used the upload
Apple Indo-Europeans divide, presumably on an east/west basis into Northwest
Indo-Europeans (pre Italics, Celts, and Phrygians] and Northern Indo-Europeans
(Germanics, Balto-Slavs/Albanians/Illyrians/Messapics).



Northwest Indo-Europeans are likely to have been the first inhabitants of Hallstatt.


Leaving behind the Balto-Slavs, the “Adriatic Indo-Europeans” all [together or
apart? (“not enough evidence”)] eventually move south of the Carpathians,
presumably along the middle Danube; the Messapics eventually cross the Adriatic.

[Hawk]

At this point i am convinced that you are trolling, how would selectively all 18-20% of E-V13 Bulgarians come from Macedonians and Serbs. Ridiculous attempt at propaganda.

[PaleoRevenge]

At this point i am convinced that you are trolling, how would selectively all 18-20% of E-V13 Bulgarians come from Macedonians and Serbs. Ridiculous attempt at propaganda.

Macedonians have a similar ratio of E-V13, almost identical. How can a nation of 1.3-4 million Macedonians give a nation of 7.3 mill Bulgarians their E-V13 for both to end up around 20%? Was Bulgaria empty? All their arguments have forced explanations, but you're a hater if you don't go along.

[Excine]

Who said anything about ethnicity? Many E-V13 who live in Bulgaria today lived in the Middle Ages in Macedonia and Serbia. They could be Slavic Macedonians, Vlachs, Bulgarians and many others. I'm not even counting Albanian migrations which increased E-V13 in Bulgaria.

Check the individual history of the E-V13 in Bulgaria from FTDNA/YFULL and the TMRCA of the ones who are uploaded on yfull which you can easily check. There are 22 Bulgarian samples on yfull. For almost half of them even existing TMRCA from non-Bulgarian (geographically) samples lies in the Middle Ages. There's a reason why E-V13 is not diverse in Bulgaria and Romania and it's not because they haven't tested enough.


Read up on Bulgaria's history. After the Balkan Wars and the split of Macedonia between Serbia/Yugoslavia and Greece, many Slavic Macedonians who considered themselves Bulgarians migrated massively to Bulgaria.

[enter_tain]

I am not putting a stamp here, but Matzinger is a respected linguist and Albanologist, he for sure has seen some kind of pattern.

Respected by who? By you and Johan Deranged? Who is quoting Matzinger?

You literally stated yourself this guy makes up new shit every year and contradicts himself. I know a large section of university profs bullshit their research hoping no one will check upon them, but this dude takes it to a new level. But hey as long as he keeps stuff coming every year. 2021 Matzinger was different from 2018 Matzinger, but wait till you see 2024 Matzinger on Ancient Aliens.

[enter_tain]

It's likely that Pre/Proto-Albanoid came during Bronze to Iron Age transition in Central Balkans, probability is good, it's there.

Your fragile brain still fails to grasp that Albanian and Messapic being related, makes this impossible. Messapic has roots as long as >3000 years back to the Balkans, and we see archeological + genetic evidence linking them to the West Balkans.



There are 0 linguists today who dispute a link between Albanian and Messapic. This is why Albanian is "Adriatic Indo-European".

[Johane Derite]

The tree with "Adriatic Indo-European" comes from Eric Hamp's notebook in 2012. Its not a published paper of his.

Interesting how only the "adriatic indo-european" has been cropped out so as not reveal the larger context of Hamp's proposed phylogeny, in which illyrian and Albanian are common dialects with Balto-Slavic in a proposed Balto-Slavic-Adriatic branch.

This is not an accepted phylogeny by anybody serious.

[Excine]

@Johane Derite

Hamp's reference to a "Balto-Slavic-Adriatic" refers to a Pre-Balkan date in the IE era before the final split of the inner IE branches. It doesn't even refer to MBA era branches. So whether you agree or disagree with such a notion is irrelevant for the existence of an Adriatic Indo-European which for Hamp included Albanian and Messapo-Illyrian. The important thing is that the same notion is being accepted today by all newer studies. Hyllested and Joseph classify (to be published October 2022) Albanian and Messapic under an "Illyric" branch. The difference is that they then connect this branch with Armenian and Greco-Phrygian. The point remains regardless of pre-Balkan groupings: Albanian, Messapic, Illyrian of the proprie dicti are related and are grouped together.


The connection between Albanian and Messapic cannot be reconciled 1)with any idea of Proto-Albanians in Thrace or Dacia 2)with any idea which excludes Proto-Albanians from the Illyrian peoples from northern Croatia to the central Balkans.

[Androgenica]

Anecdotal contribution:

My father originally from Kosovo was shocked during his travels in Albania in the early 90’s when people had difficulty understanding him. It’s not only the accent, but the vocabulary and how the language flows.

Instead of “Miremengjes” (Good morning) we say “Auchovah”. Even when spoken with grammar (standard Albanian), we always say “Miremengjesi“ (with an extra i).
A common insult is “Magar”, but Kosovar Gheg Albanians say “Magari”
The name “Dardan”? People like to say “Dardani”.

For domate (tomato), we say “potleejohn” (Not sure how it’s spelled, but that’s how you pronounce it).

Gheg Albanians, like Italians, add extra vowels at the end of words for better “flow” whereas I don’t see Tosks do so. it’s also spoken more aggressively with less nasal pitch than Tosks and many words are completely different, none of them connected to Turks/Slavs/Greeks, but different dialect of Albanian.

Just found that interesting.

I don’t know if these differences are within natural linguistic variation or an ancient influence...

But it may be helpful in better understanding the language.

[Illyria]

Albanian is not a pure Illyrian language

Albanian is not a pure Thracian language

Bryges were in Albania circa 1200BC, some Dardani crossed from Balkans to Anatolia around this time too, WITH some of the Bryges. Some stayed behind in the Balkans. Bryges, Dardani, Paeoni, seem to all be heavily interlinked in history & their geography, in both the Balkans and Anatolia. Lots of overlap with these ancient tribes. It's likely these people were rich in E-V13. I think around this time, Illyrians had started settling Albania, and other nearby areas, or possibly earlier (rumored MBA J2b2 Albania sample)

No doubt J2b2 and E-V13 lived among each other and mixed since the LBA. By The Iron Age, Illyrians gave even more influence, to the Dardani, Paeoni, etc. The Illyrians allied with these people numerous times in history too, their stretch of influence was up to the Morava Vardar, where they met Thracians that lived among these rivers

It's also interesting that after Bryges disappear from Albania, the Albanoi are mentioned in their place several hundreds of years later. This makes me wonder, if Albanoi / Arber was formed from Bryges + Illyrians (Arbi?)

Either way, I think there's no doubt that Albanian is Thraco-Illyrian, with more Illyrian influence than Thracian. I don't think it's possible to tie it down to only one of these languages, given the lack of written material from ancient Illyrians and Thracians. We know Albanian is linked to Messapic, who came from Illyria, who were J2b2. To ignore this, is a wishful, pure Thracoid fantasy.. In that same token, to ignore that E-V13 is the most common haplogroup among Albanians today, is a wishful, pure Illyrian fantasy too. Clearly we have links to both, I think this shouldn't be ignored. Everyone wants to be "pure" and assign themselves to one tribe or race, this type of thinking is a lot like the outdated "Aryan-Nordic-Nazi" theories that was popular in Germany / Northern Europe like 100 years ago. All we talk about here is, "J2b2 isn't Albanian" "E-V13 isn't Albanian" "Illyrians were weak, look how low J2b2 is." "Thracians were weak, look how assimilated E-V13 is"

Ridiculous. We are not pure Illyrians and we are not pure Thracians... All the fantasy fiction writers on here need to realize this

[mount123]

This is not an accepted phylogeny by anybody serious.

For obvious reasons lol. I actually did look this up yesterday and had a good laugh. Pretty much shows how some users put things out of context in order to support an obsolete and rightfully false theory.

[mount123]

Instead of derailing this and other threads on this forum and therefore embarrassing yourselves, what about opening a thread where you can "discuss" all things you seem obsessed about?

[Johane Derite]

The tree with "Adriatic Indo-European" comes from Eric Hamp's notebook in 2012. Its not a published paper of his.
Interesting how only the "adriatic indo-european" has been cropped out so as not reveal the larger context of Hamp's proposed phylogeny, in which illyrian and Albanian are common dialects with Balto-Slavic in a proposed Balto-Slavic-Adriatic branch.
This is not an accepted phylogeny by anybody serious.

Matzinger's argument is relevant here

He argues thar Messapic is part of the Balkanic IE group with Greek, Phrygian, Albanian, etc, but not part of the East Alpine Block like Illyrian.

He also clarifies that Balkanic IE doesnt necessarily mean phylogenetic relationship, but can possibly be areal contact as in the balkan sprachbund where Albanian, Turkish, South Slavic dialects have shared features from contact despite not having a phylogenetic relationship.

So according to him the term Messapo-Illyrian is like saying Albano-South Slavic, it is imposing a phylogenetic relationship where there is possibly none, and should therefore be avoided.

Messapians Proper also need to be differentiated from Daunians, etc, since almost all messapian language inscriptions are found where the Messapi Proper lived, and those regions outside of the Messapi Proper also appear to be places that Messapi conquered, as in the example of a reference to Messapi conquering the Dauni.

Daunians may have had more Illyrians, Dalmatians, Iapodians etc in their ethnogenesis, Messapi Proper may have had more Dardanians, etc (the largest Messapi Proper tribe, the Kalabri, are connected with the Dardani Galabroi.)

Another thing relevant here is that Messapic is not Proto-Albanian, it feels like some people are under this impression.

Likewise, the big point here is that languages like Phrygian, Paeonian, etc, existed. These were Balkan IE languages that were neither Thracian or Illyrian, as Matzinger is considering Messapic and Albanian.

[Hawk]

Matzinger's argument is relevant here
He argues thar Messapic is part of the Balkanic IE group with Greek, Phrygian, Albanian, etc, but not part of the East Alpine Block like Illyrian.
He also clarifies that Balkanic IE doesnt necessarily mean phylogenetic relationship, but can possibly be areal contact as in the balkan sprachbund where Albanian, Turkish, South Slavic dialects have shared features from contact despite not having a phylogenetic relationship.
So according to him the term Messapo-Illyrian is like saying Albano-South Slavic, it is imposing a phylogenetic relationship where there is possibly none, and should therefore be avoided.
Messapians Proper also need to be differentiated from Daunians, etc, since almost all messapian language inscriptions are found where the Messapi Proper lived, and those regions outside of the Messapi Proper also appear to be places that Messapi conquered, as in the example of a reference to Messapi conquering the Dauni.
Daunians may have had more Illyrians, Dalmatians, Iapodians etc in their ethnogenesis, Messapi Proper may have had more Dardanians, etc (the largest Messapi Proper tribe, the Kalabri, are connected with the Dardani Galabroi.)
Another thing relevant here is that Messapic is not Proto-Albanian, it feels like some people are under this impression.
Likewise, the big point here is that languages like Phrygian, Paeonian, etc, existed. These were Balkan IE languages that were neither Thracian or Illyrian, as Matzinger is considering Messapic and Albanian.

Thanks for the clarification, it sounds plausible.

[Dushman]

Wow, Messapic is related to Trojan-Dardanian now. The inland Dardanians could settle and rename Southern Italy but they couldn’t influence Albania and Montenegro. They just pressed Skip on those lands and bought ships from the Enchelei and Taulantians or the mysterious non-Illyrian non-Hellenic Adriatic tribes around Dyrrachium. Ok, where do I buy his book? I want to donate to this poor dude.

Daddy Matzinger has 0 written records but he knows there were separate Paeonian, Brygian, Dardanian, Illyrian (of the Illyrii proprie dicti), Adriatic language around Dyrrachium (non-Illyrian).

I’m curious about the Ardiaei language. Was it proprie dicti? Or more of an Autariatae-like language since they reached the coast later?

Next thing, we need to show some love to the Parthini and Dassareti languages of the South.

This loser linguist that makes a living out of the neglected Albanian needs to revise his university lectures on Aeolic, Ionic, Doric, and Arcado-Cypriot.