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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

  1. #1776
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Funnily enough the bolded part is the very cap here.
    I would give you the benefit of the doubt if we started talking about different time frames in reference to lagging and leading indicators vis a vis the two haplogroup diversification patterns. But even then lagging and leading still implies correlation.

    Edit: Placeholder. pending
    This is not how lineages from the same founding population behave.
    You can do the same for Germanics and Slavs. Very different.

    I am just using the same data and logic for all.
    Germanics were not in sync before Urnfieldisarion.

    Slavs however show differentiated pattern, but over a huge area.

  2. #1777
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    The burden of proof is not on me here. Just run the data. And lets talk after.

    Though I suspect based on the data set, this will be messy.

    Edit: A time lagged cross correlation calculation would better fit the purpose here.

    https://www.lexjansen.com/nesug/nesug12/fi/fi03.pdf

    Something like this would set this straight.

    Hint: I have no idea the results for either. But at least I am proposing ways to test it out and not just making statements out of thin air.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    What is there to elaborate though? Do I need to draw arrows pointing at the correlated moves on the graph? Be them lagging or leading correlations? Just look at the general pattern. I have not done stats in a couple* of years, but you go ahead and run the numbers for correlation between the data and you will see.

    Even then I am giving this particular method tooo much merit. The whole point of Y mutations is randomness, trying to measure degree of correlation in such a scenario beyond the general pattern that gets tricky. But even then its still staggering just from the eye test.
    Why does it align for so many events and people nicely, but here we see a massive contradiction?

    The best you could argue for is that E-V13 and J-L283 were both in the more Southern Balkans, but only E-V13 got nearly erradicated (why the difference?), while the more Northern clades stayed well and alive for yet another 200 years to the Dacian wars and Germanic invasion of the Carpathians-Western steppe.

    Again, E-V13 goes down from a fairly important, steadily growing haplogroup of Europe to nothing in the Roman period, whereas J-L283 got hit too, but 200 years earlier and growing well right when E-V13 doing bad, while the Carpathian zone/Dacians get ravaged. This would be a lot of coincidences to say the least.

    This is how synchrony looks like for Germanics (starts with Urnfieldisation):

    I-M253 are in complete synchrony between 3.100-2.000 BP.

    Slavic being split along two major branches of R-Z280, one expanding with R-M458, the other with I-CTS10936. Note how the up and downturns for the respective main founding lineages of Germanics and Slavs are nicely in synchrony.

    Then consider the much smaller area, much less diversified, for J-L283, and look at the truly massive discrepancy. I'm not saying I know the answer, but that's surely absolutely significant. J-L283 grew with Romans, E-V13 almost completely crashed, E-V13 grew better with Germanics and Slavs, J-L283 rather not.

    And the zero growth in the Roman era means the conditions for the J-L283 lineages must have been very different, significantly better, in the Roman sphere. If you think about it, we won't see anything different, because we might find a lot more clades which expanded with Dacians, Celts, Germanics and Slavs elsewhere, but so much more Albanian E-V13 subclades in that time frame? After that good testing of Albanians on YFull? Rather not.

    You have to explain the discrepancy. Probably you have a better/other explanation than Thracians and Dacians suffer more than Southern Illyrians, but I would prefer to discuss alternative explanations or additional data instead of criticism as such.

    Its a crude and probably not "scientific enough" method, but its good enough to detect and describe major events and population movements, like those of the Germanics and Slavs. So it has to mean something for the Balkan lineages as well.

    I'm just applying the same crude method to all lineages I'm interested in. Its not to "manipulate the data" for any kind of purpose. I just tried to visualise with actual data what I did recognise as a pattern on YFull already, that most E-V13 lineages have specific founding periods, most dating back to the LBA-EIA.

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    @Riverman
    The 0 growth period you mentioned corresponds with the massacres and resettlements after the Great Illyrian Revolt.

    But with the data at hand, it should be J2b2 the decimated one and resettled in Eastern Balkans or taken as slaves elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Why does it align for so many events and people nicely, but here we see a massive contradiction?

    The best you could argue for is that E-V13 and J-L283 were both in the more Southern Balkans, but only E-V13 got nearly erradicated (why the difference?), while the more Northern clades stayed well and alive for yet another 200 years to the Dacian wars and Germanic invasion of the Carpathians-Western steppe.

    Again, E-V13 goes down from a fairly important, steadily growing haplogroup of Europe to nothing in the Roman period, whereas J-L283 got hit too, but 200 years earlier and growing well right when E-V13 doing bad, while the Carpathian zone/Dacians get ravaged. This would be a lot of coincidences to say the least.

    This is how synchrony looks like for Germanics (starts with Urnfieldisation):

    I-M253 are in complete synchrony between 3.100-2.000 BP.

    Slavic being split along two major branches of R-Z280, one expanding with R-M458, the other with I-CTS10936. Note how the up and downturns for the respective main founding lineages of Germanics and Slavs are nicely in synchrony.

    Then consider the much smaller area, much less diversified, for J-L283, and look at the truly massive discrepancy. I'm not saying I know the answer, but that's surely absolutely significant. J-L283 grew with Romans, E-V13 almost completely crashed, E-V13 grew better with Germanics and Slavs, J-L283 rather not.

    And the zero growth in the Roman era means the conditions for the J-L283 lineages must have been very different, significantly better, in the Roman sphere. If you think about it, we won't see anything different, because we might find a lot more clades which expanded with Dacians, Celts, Germanics and Slavs elsewhere, but so much more Albanian E-V13 subclades in that time frame? After that good testing of Albanians on YFull? Rather not.

    You have to explain the discrepancy. Probably you have a better/other explanation than Thracians and Dacians suffer more than Southern Illyrians, but I would prefer to discuss alternative explanations or additional data instead of criticism as such.

    Its a crude and probably not "scientific enough" method, but its good enough to detect and describe major events and population movements, like those of the Germanics and Slavs. So it has to mean something for the Balkan lineages as well.

    I'm just applying the same crude method to all lineages I'm interested in. Its not to "manipulate the data" for any kind of purpose. I just tried to visualise with actual data what I did recognise as a pattern on YFull already, that most E-V13 lineages have specific founding periods, most dating back to the LBA-EIA.
    What I think on the matter is that the graphs being interpreted this way is a very simplistic aproach.
    I think what the graphs show in both Slavic - German context that you mentioned as well as V13 L283 context is a positive correlation score (to be tested). What this means in my opinion is not a foregone conclusion. Sure the various wars and movements could be the culprit, it could also be random variations of the same general pattern.
    What I think it is more likely to show is the ecosystem/economic busts and booms of the past for specific regions as a whole. Humans with bronze swords can only do so much killing, lack of grain, drought, disease though is a much better explanation for why there is correlation between inhabitants of Central Europe between themselves, and of the Balkans between themselves.
    Sure tribe raids tribe type of thing can have an impact, and an empire resettling hundreds of thousands of people like the Romans did with Dalmatia can have a larger impact, but I think the underlying driver is actually ecosystem / economic drivers. Keep in mind the Illyrian revolt was economic driven to begin with. The much more prosperous Southern Illyrians did not revolt, as they had little reason too, being one of the more prosperous regions along with Anatolia, Egypt and mainland Italy. Bit hard to make war without a belly full, or while fighting smallpox.

    Ecosystem disaster + Economic bust --> Demographic change --> Power Vacuum --> Economic incentive --> Waring tribes is my explanation
    and rather not
    Waring tribes for fun --> Demographic change + Economic bust

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    @Riverman
    The 0 growth period you mentioned corresponds with the massacres and resettlements after the Great Illyrian Revolt.

    But with the data at hand, it should be J2b2 the decimated one and resettled in Eastern Balkans or taken as slaves elsewhere.
    It could be different tribes, but it only corresponds to the first downturn - after which there was a very small uptick even. This is 200-300 years earlier and affects both E-V13 and J-L283, which could correspond either to the Illyrian or Thracian uprisings:
    During the Macedonian Wars, conflict between Rome and Thrace was unavoidable. The rulers of Macedonia were weak, and Thracian tribal authority resurged. But after the Battle of Pydna in 168 BC, Roman authority over Macedonia seemed inevitable, and the governance of Thrace passed to Rome.[citation needed] Initially, Thracians and Macedonians revolted against Roman rule. For example, the revolt of Andriscus, in 149 BC, drew the bulk of its support from Thrace. Incursions by local tribes into Macedonia continued for many years, though a few tribes, such as the Deneletae and the Bessi, willingly allied with Rome.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians#Roman_rule

    The really big blow corresponds in time not with the J-L283 growth and not with the Illyrian stories, but only with the Dacian wars, Sarmatian and Germanic invasions. And I'd really say the Dacians got hit much harder than the Illyrians in the Roman era. Germanic and Slavic, maybe different, because they seem to have allied up with them in the forms of some Dacian and Daco-Sarmatian groups.

    If you look at the other patterns, a time gap of 200-300 years of one founding population is something which doesn't exist in the data. I was astonished by this fact myself, because my trust into YFull estimates was not that high before. But there is something about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    What I think on the matter is that the graphs being interpreted this way is a very simplistic aproach.
    I think what the graphs show in both Slavic - German context that you mentioned as well as V13 L283 context is a positive correlation score (to be tested). What this means in my opinion is not a foregone conclusion. Sure the various wars and movements could be the culprit, it could also be random variations of the same general pattern.
    What I think it is more likely to show is the ecosystem/economic busts and booms of the past for specific regions as a whole. Humans with bronze swords can only do so much killing, lack of grain, drought, disease though is a much better explanation for why there is correlation between inhabitants of Central Europe between themselves, and of the Balkans between themselves.
    Sure tribe raids tribe type of thing can have an impact, and an empire resettling hundreds of thousands of people like the Romans did with Dalmatia can have a larger impact, but I think the underlying driver is actually ecosystem / economic drivers. Keep in mind the Illyrian revolt was economic driven to begin with. The much more prosperous Southern Illyrians did not revolt, as they had little reason too, being one of the more prosperous regions along with Anatolia, Egypt and mainland Italy. Bit hard to make war without a belly full, or while fighting smallpox.

    Ecosystem disaster + Economic bust --> Demographic change --> Power Vacuum --> Economic incentive --> Waring tribes is my explanation
    and rather not
    Waring tribes for fun --> Demographic change + Economic bust
    We're talking about patrilineages. R-L2 grew massively with Tumulus while much of the Carpatho-Balkan sphere got just slaughtered and the demography collapsed. But the reason was indeed that they killed and drove out so many people from Pannonia. They just grabbed the land they liked, the resources they liked and lived from their herds and made children with some of the women they could grab along the way. That's the story of the R-L2 expansion with Tumulus culture and Middle Danubian Urnfielders, from the destructive Koszider horizon onwards, which destroyed whole people like the Transdanubian Encrusted Pottery people, which lived there before for many centuries and were one of the dominant groups of the region - before.

    The only thing one side needs is having the edge in a specific respect, technology, tactics, ideology, demography and the will to conquer, for whatever reason. Could be because they were pushed too, but could be the sheer opportunity to grab something because of superiour means.

    In the cases we are talking about, these patrilinear founder effects, are practically always connected to some clans expanding at the expense of others. You see it with E-V13 and J-L283 before, even being themselves from the Alpine-Carpatho-Balkan sphere, doesn't matter, they replaced other lineages on the way which now are very rare or non-existent.

    The boom : bust cycles are real, but oftentimes if two boom, one booms more, if two bust, one gets busted more. It is very rarely about the absolute impact, but rather the relative. Like if in a time of catastrophy one side does just good enough, like the J-L283 under Roman rule, they got an edge over a people which obviously suffered much more, like the E-V13 lineages did.
    But such a discrepancy can't be just neglected as being of no importance, it is very imporant, especially if having such a magnitude and duration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    You wish to distinguish them because you refuse to believe that J-L283 and E-V13 spoke the same language. Illyrians are the only ancient people to have a single haplogroup, according to fringe theories promoted by the same people who claimed Albanians originated in the Caucasus a decade ago. In any case, we are beginning to discover E-V13 in the western Balkans during antiquity, and that's what will remain recorded in history.
    They'll always find some bullcrap...

    First it was Illyrians aren't Z638. Then it's Illyrians don't have EV-13. Now it's they're genetically related to Albanians, but they don't speak the language.

    Now they're relegated to making up ghost populations, fake languages, fake migrations that have no basis in history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    They'll always find some bullcrap...

    First it was Illyrians aren't Z638. Then it's Illyrians don't have EV-13. Now it's they're genetically related to Albanians, but they don't speak the language.

    Now they're relegated to making up ghost populations, fake languages, fake migrations that have no basis in history.
    Dacians and Thracians are "fake populations", major archaeological formations like Channelled Ware or Bosut-Basarabi being "made up".
    Sure.

    Illyrians had E-V13, but
    ) secondarily acquired from Thracians
    ) not as much, especially in their core regions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Dacians and Thracians are "fake populations", major archaeological formations like Channelled Ware or Bosut-Basarabi being "made up".
    Sure.
    Illyrians had E-V13, but
    ) secondarily acquired from Thracians
    ) not as much, especially in their core regions
    Ok, Mr. "Daco-Sarmatians".

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Ok, Mr. "Daco-Sarmatians".
    Very mature behaviour I must say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Ok, Mr. "Daco-Sarmatians".
    If combining these two ethnicities that way, its not meant as a new group, but rather describes the fact that a people had both elements in the mix. And that was definitely the case in the Eastern Carpathian basin, and beyond, where incoming Sarmatians and Dacians mixed on a grande scale. You see it in the samples from Transtisza which oscillate between Dacian and Sarmatian for the most part. Just a mixed population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Very mature behaviour I must say.
    It's mature to make up fake migrations and populations because you don't like reality?

    Hawk literally is not aware that the "Central Balkans" during the time he's talking about were inhabited by Celtic tribes.



    Nish only became Albanian during the Roman Empire and was founded by Celts.

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    There was no long-term impact of Celts deeper and inner in Central Balkans, they were kicked out by Dardanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    It's mature to make up fake migrations and populations because you don't like reality?

    Hawk literally is not aware that the "Central Balkans" during the time he's talking about were inhabited by Celtic tribes.



    Nish only became Albanian during the Roman Empire and was founded by Celts.
    Many regions being rather assimilated and only superficially Celticised, having picked up La Tene elements before the the tribal Celts came. In other regions, the actual La Tene Celtic impact was significant, it really depends on the region in question. Not possible to draw all too broad conclusions in this respect. Even less so if considering later Dacian and Sarmatian expansions.

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    It is a big question mark to me that this "entertain" user who constantly posts off topic and pseudo scientific non sense and ad hominems is not banned yet. Add to that all of these other sock puppet accounts that have been reported multiple times, this site more and more resembles theapricity.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    It is a big question mark to me that this "entertain" user who constantly posts off topic and pseudo scientific non sense and ad hominems is not banned yet. Add to that all of these other sock puppet accounts that have been reported multiple times, this site more and more resembles theapricity.com
    I keep posting pseudo-scientific nonsense, yet I keep getting proven right and you wrong. Funny how that works.

    I suggest you stop posting trash before actual samples come from Albania and you look even more foolish. We still have 0 samples from Albania so far. Croatian Illyrians were distant cousins, but still only cousins. We still haven't posted the ancestral samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I keep posting pseudo-scientific nonsense, yet I keep getting proven right and you wrong. Funny how that works.

    I suggest you stop posting trash before actual samples come from Albania and you look even more foolish. We still have 0 samples from Albania so far. Croatian Illyrians were distant cousins, but still only cousins. We still haven't posted the ancestral samples.
    You are lucky that you have not gotten banned for derailing every thread and making it about yourself or other weird off topic stuff. I have just seen what you did on the Stable population structure thread. What an embarrassing behaviour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    You are lucky that you have not gotten banned for derailing every thread and making it about yourself or other weird off topic stuff. I have just seen what you did on the Stable population structure thread. What an embarrassing behaviour.
    Come on man, as a Neo-Illyrian, control yourself. You’re not a barbaric Proto-Illyrian, you’re Neo, an improved and sophisticated version.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    With all the respect I have for the mods here, and knowing they have other things in life, seeing how such insults stay up on this forum for 48 hours really puts me off this forum as a whole.

    If the insults and larping was antisemitic or italophobic instead of albanophobic you know it would have been taken care off within the minute.
    Shame all around.
    No wonder some forums do better than others.
    I did go through all of those derogatory, racist name-calling posts and collected some in the "ancient Balkans Y DNA" thread as a respond to one of the moderators. I wrote a private message to another moderator as a "letter of concern". There is unfortunately no response even though they are active on this thread which can be seen in their timeline.

    Honestly, my understanding ends here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    You are lucky that you have not gotten banned for derailing every thread and making it about yourself or other weird off topic stuff. I have just seen what you did on the Stable population structure thread. What an embarrassing behaviour.
    The only thing I derailed was the trash anti-Albanian nonsense that you Hawk, Riverman, Johan Deranged post, hoping to go unchallenged. Illyrian-Albanian continuity has been pushed around for centuries by Western Historians, but to you and those others it's "communist propaganda".

    We have EV-13 Illyrians and now a J2B2-L283/Z638 Sicilian/Mycenean-like Illyrian in Montenegro. Illyrian-Albanian continuity has all but been proven with this paper, and we still have 0 samples from Albania. Imagine when those samples actually come rolling in. You all will look like absolute fools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    The only thing I derailed was the trash anti-Albanian nonsense that you Hawk, Riverman, Johan Deranged post, hoping to go unchallenged. Illyrian-Albanian continuity has been pushed around for centuries by Western Historians, but to you and those others it's "communist propaganda".

    We have EV-13 Illyrians and now a J2B2-L283/Z638 Sicilian/Mycenean-like Illyrian in Montenegro. Illyrian-Albanian continuity has all but been proven with this paper, and we still have 0 samples from Albania. Imagine when those samples actually come rolling in. You all will look like absolute fools.
    Don Quixote always misstaking/imagining the wind mill as the dragon, the E-V13 there are very likely Urnfield derived, if not then from earlier Koszider hoard influence on Glasinac, either way their ultimate origin doesn't share the same story as J2b2-L283 previous of LBA. As for the language, i leave it to people who understand more about linguistics and i believe from Albanians around here Johane Derite is the pro. Atleast from what i have seen he is the guy who has constantly brought all kind of arguments/sources about Albanian language, Pro-Illyrian (which you seem to forget but once he shared the against Illyrian your ego got hurt) and non-Illyrian ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I did go through all of those derogatory, racist name-calling posts and collected some in the "ancient Balkans Y DNA" thread as a respond to one of the moderators. I wrote a private message to another moderator as a "letter of concern". There is unfortunately no response even though they are active on this thread which can be seen in their timeline.

    Honestly, my understanding ends here.
    If you have not noticed, this forum for the most part is a joke.
    Only way anything gets done here is through Maciamo, but he has delegated the moderating to the mods obviously, and the mods don't seem to moderate anything that does not go against their world view, right or wrong.
    When genetic fora meta was apricity like, that would fly, as you can see the older threads here having much more activity. But overtime as the level of discussion was raised as far as genetics goes, pareto efficiency dictated that this particular forum would wither, thanks in large part to partisan moding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    The only thing I derailed was the trash anti-Albanian nonsense...
    What's Anti-Albanian about discussing E-V13 origins? If assuming an origin North of Albania in the Bronze Age (!!!), this causes headache to you? This is "Anti-Albanian"?

    What does that tell other people about your kind of nationalism or agenda?

    That's how you argue: "No, E-V13 must be our own pet, we kept it in the Balkan cage, East of the Illyrian bulk of J-L283, just somewhere in between they were all sitting, in some valley, caught up there, they never moved out. I don't know where, I don't know when, I don't even know any archaeological culture which might have been dominated by them, but I'm sure they weren't anywhere else. Its our own pet, we don't give it away."

    That's how you sound to me. E-V13 had double the number of J-L283 in the Iron Age, yet by current sampling, if not accounting for the cremation horizon and Channelled Ware, the area in which the bulk of E-V13 is supposed to be sitting and hiding would be 1/3 the size. Even worse, it would be an area constantly overrun and devastated by other people, including those people which I propose brought it to the Balkans in the LBA in the first place. If that would have been the case, E-V13 would have barely survived and never experienced any sort of founder series it had, in the Late Bronze and Early Iron Age, in the areas and with the phylogeny we know from the modern data.

    I haven't even heard any plausible alternative to the Gva/Belegis II-Gva into Basarabi-Psenichevo model. Only unfounded criticism. No alternative explanation for the observable patterns of the modern distribution and phylogeny, which need to be explained.

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    mfs be like, "illyrian has nothing to do with the proto-albanians, it was enver hoxha's communist propaganda bro, dardania is the cradle of jesus the thracian, we kosovars are pure dardani thracians unlike the weak roman-illyrian arber highlanders in malsi, mirdite, and dibra"

    then they're like "how are we being anti-albanian "

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