Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

We all know why you pick this theory. This theory was picked to appease political appetite of Serbs and Greeks. You will have your blow when ancient DNA from Illyrians are revealed. No matter how much you try to mask, it's pointless.

It's my opinion, right? Everyone is entitled to his/hers. Here is what I base mine on. There are a lot more loanwords from the Slavic and Romanian/romance language than the Greek language. There are very few loanwords in Greek from Albanian. You would think that there would be more if you lived next to each other over 3000 years. Greek, Roman, Celtic, Thracian and Illyrian are vowel rich languages. Albanian or shall I say Arvanitika is not. It sounds Slavic to my ears.

Gorgiev, one of the foremost authorities on Balkan languages also thinks so and so do a lot of Romanian linguists and historians.
 
We all know why you pick this theory. This theory was picked to appease political appetite of Serbs and Greeks. You will have your blow when ancient DNA from Illyrians are revealed. No matter how much you try to mask, it's pointless.

I believe the Dacian theory was developed by Romanians, This theory was proposed in 1905 by Bogdan Petriceicu Hașdeu to explain the similarities between the Romanian and Albanian languages within the framework of the continuity theory for Romanians by establishing a shared origin from Dacian, with the Albanian resisting Romanization.

This theory that reflected the political agendas of its time is obsolete now, it is very difficult to support Romanian continuity in northern Danube-Carpathian basin.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians




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It's my opinion, right? Everyone is entitled to his/hers. Here is what I base mine on. There are a lot more loanwords from the Slavic and Romanian/romance language than the Greek language. There are very few loanwords in Greek from Albanian. You would think that there would be more if you lived next to each other over 3000 years. Greek, Roman, Celtic, Thracian and Illyrian are vowel rich languages. Albanian or shall I say Arvanitika is not. It sounds Slavic to my ears.

Gorgiev, one of the foremost authorities on Balkan languages also thinks so and so do a lot of Romanian linguists and historians.

Well, weak arguments i must say, biased. Because, essentially they come from a Russian guy called Vladimir Orel who has published a book during 1998-2000 during the Kosovo war.

You disregard everything that is obvious to explain an unlikely scenario. Georgiev is outdated, it's the same guy who also believed Thracians and Pelasgians spoke similar language. Matzinger and Trumper believe that Albanian, Illyrian and Messapian form a language family. Similarities are undeniable. Also, Albanian has Doric loanwords.
 
You shouldn't wait, you should spend more time improving your English language skills, your written form is completely unstructured, i bet your speaking is catastrophic.:grin:

but not my thoughts,
neithrt the mathematical models,

I am born like this,
I have problem with logos and lectural speach,

But I was granted on shapes. maths, etc etc.

As for you,
Just wait, When you find a fully completed with no empty spaces theory,
come back to tell us.

Until then, we will 'wait', wait' 'wait' and 'wait'
 
Well, weak arguments i must say, biased. Because, essentially they come from a Russian guy called Vladimir Orel who has published a book during 1998-2000 during the Kosovo war.

You disregard everything that is obvious to explain an unlikely scenario. Georgiev is outdated, it's the same guy who also believed Thracians and Pelasgians spoke similar language. Matzinger and Trumper believe that Albanian, Illyrian and Messapian form a language family. Similarities are undeniable. Also, Albanian has Doric loanwords.

Until you find a complete theory,

we will wait, wait, and wait.

You are not convincing, even an amateuer linguist when comes to a fully completed model.

as for Georgiev, day by day its model fit and unite puzzles to a complete theory,
with bot Linguistic and genetics.
 
but not my thoughts,
neithrt the mathematical models,

I am born like this,
I have problem with logos and lectural speach,

But I was granted on shapes. maths, etc etc.

As for you,
Just wait, When you find a fully completed with no empty spaces theory,
come back to tell us.

Until then, we will 'wait', wait' 'wait' and 'wait'

I doubt it lol. At least after so many years of communication you should form a subconscious ability to form sentences better.
 
Mati Basin is very important for Albanian ethnogenesis as there is no penetration of Latin placenames. This suggests either pre-roman Albanophone presence there, or at the least early Albanophone enclave there. I don't see for now a Dacian model that explains Mati phenomen:

"There are only two regions where there are no traces of Romanisation in the place names: the high mountain areas of the Northern Albanian Alps and the district of Mat.

We would not expect Romanisation in the high mountain areas of the Northern Albanian Alps because it is obviously not a region that is conducive to settlement. Villages were and are rare there.

At any rate, any genuine Latin place names would have been wiped out by the flood of Slavic invasion.

The situation is quite different in the fertile district of Mat where, even today, there are sizeable towns and villages. It is here that we would normally expect to find Latin place names. "


Source: http://www.albanianhistory.net/1936_Stadtmueller/

Mati needs to be explained. This region is where Albanopolis is, has pre-Roman Albanophone presence.

101013104_897751637407619_5263066861687275520_o.jpg
 
I doubt it lol. At least after so many years of communication you should form a subconscious ability to form sentences better.

and you?

shouldn't you develope the ability to check and compare models,
instead screams of 'scholars'?

Lol

look who is talking.

We all know why you pick this theory. This theory was picked to appease political appetite of Serbs and Greeks. You will have your blow when ancient DNA from Illyrians are revealed. No matter how much you try to mask, it's pointless.

As bad are my English, such bad are the screams you provide,
Until then, wait, wait, wait, wait and wait.


:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 
Mati needs to be explained. This region is where Albanopolis is, has pre-Roman Albanophone presence.

101013104_897751637407619_5263066861687275520_o.jpg

I believe Albanoi was an exonym given by Romans to the Illyrian tribe who probably called themselves Arber/Arben as Medieval Albanians did.
 
I believe Albanoi was an exonym given by Romans to the Illyrian tribe who probably called themselves Arber/Arben as Medieval Albanians did.

Yes this place is crucial since it gave us our ethnonym, and since there isnt latin penetration, it suggest it is where we survived, our refugum.
 
Also, if we look at where Illyrian and Roman toponyms survived the most, it correlates with the "Arber" culture (or Komani culture, based on earliest finds in Koman) which is what Albanian archaeologists offer as the cultural marker for the transition of Illyrians into Proto-Albanians.

Serb nationalists argue this was a latinized vlach people in the Arber/Komani culture, who preserved these Illyrian and Roman toponyms. That necessitates proto-Albanians coming in Roman collapse and assimilating almost most of these "Komani" romanised peoples. This seems improbable to me.

But then how do you explain the strong isoglosses with the pre-Latin substrate in Romanian and the prevalence of Eastern Romance over Western Romance (Italo-Dalmarian) borrowings into old Albanian? Doesn't that indicate that Albanian was either spoken or also and relevantly spoken to the east/northeast of Albania, and that those eastern/northeastern Proto-Albanian dialects were pretty influential in the development of the later dialects that survived to form the Gheg and Tosk dialects of modern Albanian? Also considering other toponyms and their phonetic evolution, I'd say the core of the Proto-Romanian Romance was originally spoken more to the west (towards/in Serbia), and the reach of Proto-Albanian included much ofthe present northern half of North Macedonia and the southern half of Serbia, encompassing all of Kosovo and extending to central-northern Albania. That geographic location would fit the particular division of Romance borrowings (western vs. eastern), the relative paucity of Albanian loanwords in Greek, the prevalence of Romance over Hellenic borrowings (for that would put most of the Proto-Albanian territory solidly in the Latin-speaking part of the Balkans), and so on.
 
But then how do you explain the strong isoglosses with the pre-Latin substrate in Romanian and the prevalence of Eastern Romance over Western Romance (Italo-Dalmarian) borrowings into old Albanian? Doesn't that indicate that Albanian was either spoken or also and relevantly spoken to the east/northeast of Albania, and that those eastern/northeastern Proto-Albanian dialects were pretty influential in the development of the later dialects that survived to form the Gheg and Tosk dialects of modern Albanian? Also considering other toponyms and their phonetic evolution, I'd say the core of the Proto-Romanian Romance was originally spoken more to the west (towards/in Serbia), and the reach of Proto-Albanian included much ofthe present northern half of North Macedonia and the southern half of Serbia, encompassing all of Kosovo and extending to central-northern Albania. That geographic location would fit the particular division of Romance borrowings (western vs. eastern), the relative paucity of Albanian loanwords in Greek, the prevalence of Romance over Hellenic borrowings (for that would put most of the Proto-Albanian territory solidly in the Latin-speaking part of the Balkans), and so on.

Well, Komani is in Northern Albania. Also, Mihaescu definitely argues that Western Romance is way more prevalent in Albanian than Eastern Romance.

Albania-Shkoder.jpg


How does Albanian genetics corroborates in your opinion?
 
But then how do you explain the strong isoglosses with the pre-Latin substrate in Romanian and the prevalence of Eastern Romance over Western Romance (Italo-Dalmarian) borrowings into old Albanian? Doesn't that indicate that Albanian was either spoken or also and relevantly spoken to the east/northeast of Albania, and that those eastern/northeastern Proto-Albanian dialects were pretty influential in the development of the later dialects that survived to form the Gheg and Tosk dialects of modern Albanian? Also considering other toponyms and their phonetic evolution, I'd say the core of the Proto-Romanian Romance was originally spoken more to the west (towards/in Serbia), and the reach of Proto-Albanian included much ofthe present northern half of North Macedonia and the southern half of Serbia, encompassing all of Kosovo and extending to central-northern Albania. That geographic location would fit the particular division of Romance borrowings (western vs. eastern), the relative paucity of Albanian loanwords in Greek, the prevalence of Romance over Hellenic borrowings (for that would put most of the Proto-Albanian territory solidly in the Latin-speaking part of the Balkans), and so on.

I think I'm mostly agreeing with you about the core area, just maybe a bit more west and south.

There are a couple of issues where I'm not as sure or disagree.

Firstly, Albanian has a lot of latin loanwords, but we don't know what percentage of latin loanwords may have replaced greek loanwords from the previous period.

Secondly, the Roman empire was also different in its intensity and nature to Greek colonization, Greeks did not have as far a wide and brutally encompassing linguistic assimilation effect as the Romans did, and their expansions happened in different technological ages which determined or limited scope of linguistic influence imo.

Thirdly, i think the Jiricek line is a partially flawed or incomplete idea that has had an overall negative effect with respect to placing Alb in my opinion:

During the Roman Empire, Latin had more hegemonic power both north and south of the jiricek line, it wasnt a symmetrical relationship between Greek and Latin as if there was a parallel Greek empire during the Roman one. There are many towns south of the jiricek line for example where all administrative epigraphy etc is wholly in latin, and also many entire language groups that were entirely latinized, absorbed by latin, south of the jiricek line (vlach groups in greece, thrace, etc).

This attests to a more nuanced reality and not the reduced and simplified one that albanian must have been well "above the jiricek line" to have latin influence as is usually argued. I obviously still don't think it was super south, but i do think proto-albanian most probably was at least in north epirus, at the most in south epirus peripherally also. I sincerely am not motivated in this belief by any sort of nationalist ambitions, i just don't think the bronze age branches of l283, ev13, in southern albanians, especially the south west labs, are from a migration from the east. They match arber/komani culture finds, and suggest some sort of enclave also in the laberia region. I also don't see it feasible that laberia, the most compact tosk zone, was a latinized or greek speaking region until some migration from 6th century ad of proto-albanians. If i hear a decent argument for this then I will change my mind, but L283 branches in laberia are ancient.

We need to recognize that these reconstructions are in themselves quite volatile and privy to easily being skewed, especially with an incomplete ancient corpus like proto-albanian. So the question of the Komani/Arber culture, also called the Komani-Kruja culture has to be primary in adressing origin of Albanian since this is the region which gave Albanians their ethnonym. If this archaeological culture was not proto-Albanian, then why is it where we find the most non-latin, non-slavic, non-greek, Albanian placenames? There needs to be an answer for that. If it was a latinised illyrian population, it should be full of latin placenames. Positing non-Albanian komani-kruja culture is imo the most improbable argument atm. Kruja in itself is considered the earliest Proto-Albanian gloss, attested in 879, from Albanian. Kroi (spring, stream).

So before arguing about East vs West Romance stratums, we should keep in mind that maybe we don't actually know just quite well the sphere of influence eastern vs western dialects, and how it was striated across territories, classes, etc. Its probably not as simple as just a border line.

I think North-East Albanian dialects from non-Romanised Dardanians which are mentioned in Kosova by romans until fairly late. I think Vlachs of timok and south serbia are partially romanised Dardanians, Moesians (some are also just slavs or others which joined vlachs at later periods).
 
This is a video interview with a researcher of this culture, its only in albanian, but some artefacts are visible.

 
Up until VI century Byzantine Empire was officially Latin speaking.
 
Firstly, Albanian has a lot of latin loanwords, but we don't know what percentage of latin loanwords may have replaced greek loanwords from the previous period.

Albanian even seems to have early Pre-Latin (loan)words, for which it is difficult to say if they are indeed loanwords or genuine Albanian words. So Albanian may (? must) have been spoken in a place significantly more to the north than now.
Besides, none of the words that are supposed to be borrowed from Albanian into Greek looks any good.
Albanian tilts much more northward than southward.

Secondly, the Roman empire was also different in its intensity and nature to Greek colonization, Greeks did not have as far a wide and brutally encompassing linguistic assimilation effect as the Romans did, and their expansions happened in different technological ages which determined or limited scope of linguistic influence imo.

No, in fact, Greeks exerted a quite intense linguistic attraction in Anatolia, the Near-East and even Egypt.
The influence was apparently quite peaceful, but very strong, possibly because of cultural prestige.


Thirdly, i think the Jiricek line is a partially flawed or incomplete idea that has had an overall negative effect with respect to placing Alb in my opinion: During the Roman Empire, Latin had more hegemonic power both north and south of the jiricek line, it wasnt a symmetrical relationship between Greek and Latin as if there was a parallel Greek empire during the Roman one. There are many towns south of the jiricek line for example where all administrative epigraphy etc is wholly in latin, and also many entire language groups that were entirely latinized, absorbed by latin, south of the jiricek line (vlach groups in greece, thrace, etc).
This attests to a more nuanced reality and not the reduced and simplified one that albanian must have been well "above the jiricek line" to have latin influence as is usually argued. I obviously still don't think it was super south, but i do think proto-albanian most probably was at least in north epirus, at the most in south epirus peripherally also.

There are nevertheless good linguistic reasons to think the ancestor of Albanian was indeed more to the north than is now.


We need to recognize that these reconstructions are in themselves quite volatile and privy to easily being skewed, especially with an incomplete ancient corpus like proto-albanian. So the question of the Komani/Arber culture, also called the Komani-Kruja culture has to be primary in adressing origin of Albanian since this is the region which gave Albanians their ethnonym. If this archaeological culture was not proto-Albanian, then why is it where we find the most non-latin, non-slavic, non-greek, Albanian placenames? There needs to be an answer for that. If it was a latinised illyrian population, it should be full of latin placenames. Positing non-Albanian komani-kruja culture is imo the most improbable argument atm. Kruja in itself is considered the earliest Proto-Albanian gloss, attested in 879, from Albanian. Kroi (spring, stream).

Is *kroi* an Indo-European word or not?
 
Messapic language spoken in South-East Italy was for sure related to Albanian (Matzinger 2018, Trumper 2018). It's very hard to argue against Ygor's arguments.
 
Albanian even seems to have early Pre-Latin (loan)words, for which it is difficult to say if they are indeed loanwords or genuine Albanian words. So Albanian may (? must) have been spoken in a place significantly more to the north than now.
Besides, none of the words that are supposed to be borrowed from Albanian into Greek looks any good.
Albanian tilts much more northward than southward.



No, in fact, Greeks exerted a quite intense linguistic attraction in Anatolia, the Near-East and even Egypt.
The influence was apparently quite peaceful, but very strong, possibly because of cultural prestige.




There are nevertheless good linguistic reasons to think the ancestor of Albanian was indeed more to the north than is now.




Is *kroi* an Indo-European word or not?

Its an indo european word, but the form is specifically Albanian.

Proto-Albanian has only begun to properly be reconstructed in the last 20 years, and the Old Albanian texts properly studied for the first time in the last 10 years.

Lets focus on the material evidence first and then see what fits together.

If you are arguing for 6th century entry into Albania, i think this poses more problems than the supposed lack of greek affinities, which is based on a more tertiary evidence, than direct material evidence.

1. The territories where roman and illyrian have placenames survived the most seem to correlate to the Komani-Kruja culture. (See map above)

If you are arguing it wasnt proto Albanians, then who were they? Why is it in these zones that we find among the most compact Albanian groups like Laberia, Mati-Kruja, etc.

If proto-Albanians didnt preserve those pre-slavic toponyms, then who did?

Positing another extra ethnicity seems to go against occams razor and not motivated by the evidence but some emotional or political need for Albanians to not have been in Albania.

Why does Mati basin not have any latin placenames?

Any argument for northern late origin needs to adress these since they are higher order evidence.

These concrete facts keep being avoided and the debate keeps getting shifted to lower order and more speculative circumstantial evidence.

Its like having footprints at the scene of a crime, and ignoring them.
 
Its an indo european word, but the form is specifically Albanian.
Proto-Albanian has only begun to properly be reconstructed in the last 20 years, and the Old Albanian texts properly studied for the first time in the last 10 years.
Lets focus on the material evidence first and then see what fits together.
If you are arguing for 6th century entry into Albania, i think this poses more problems than the supposed lack of greek affinities, which is based on a more tertiary evidence, than direct material evidence.
1. The territories where roman and illyrian have placenames survived the most seem to correlate to the Komani-Kruja culture. (See map above)
If you are arguing it wasnt proto Albanians, then who were they? Why is it in these zones that we find among the most compact Albanian groups like Laberia, Mati-Kruja, etc.
If proto-Albanians didnt preserve those pre-slavic toponyms, then who did?
Positing another extra ethnicity seems to go against occams razor and not motivated by the evidence but some emotional or political need for Albanians to not have been in Albania.
Why does Mati basin not have any latin placenames?
Any argument for northern late origin needs to adress these since they are higher order evidence.

I'm rather arguing for an * early * northern origin, consistent with Pre-Latin loanwords and no Greek interactions.
 
I'm rather arguing for an * early * northern origin, consistent with Pre-Latin loanwords and no Greek interactions.

Ah right, i also more and more think this, an origin around central europe
 

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