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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

  1. #2076
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    So we kind of agree on all points. As I said looking at Yfull it is evident that the diversity boom happened around LBA-IA. Hence I tend to follow the cremation line of thinking. I would question it if we had any other homeland for E-V13, say steppe, Central Europe or Anatolia but so far the indication is that it is local to the Balkan-Carpathian region, hence if it was there and we have no samples one has to concede that cremation is the best hypothesis.
    The Carpathian basin was also one of the primary source regions for cremation. So its not just that cremation appeared there too, it was the main rite of the local population throughout the ages, even when other people abandoned it.

    And the difference is particularly striking to Illyrians:
    - Illyrians had collective clan tumuli, into which the members of the clan being buried with great care
    - Thracians oftentims had not even a proper individual burial, but quite often scattered the ashes of the burnt remains on ritual places, so that not even an urn cemetery can be investigated!

    And that tradition we later hear and can testify archaeologically from Northern Dacians already appeared in the Carpatho-Balkan zone thousands of years earlier, especially in the Upper Tisza/Carpathian Nyirseg group, which I think could be directly ancestral, the main group of E-V13 in the EBA:

    Nyírség and Sanislău are both characterised by cremation burials in urns which almost always occur singly or in small groups. Indications for burials where the ashes was scattered are as uncertain as the cultural attribution of two inhumation burials (due to the lack of decorated vessels. Kalicz 1984, 111; Dani 1997, 56f.).
    http://www.donau-archaeologie.de/dok...nglish_version

    Even if inhumation burials appear, which could be tested, they are more likely than not foreigners. Same goes for Gáva.

    We have the same pattern in the opposite direction, like in Vekerzug the same area which was the home to Nyirseg and Gáva was still cremating, forming an own Thracian Vekerzug province. There were occasionally inhumations in their territory, but they clearly were no locals or at least unusual, untypical burials. The same goes for the Western groups, which preferred inhumation, sometimes appeared cremations of the Eastern group's style. Clearly, this rather points to exchange between the Vekerzug provinces, but the more clearly Thracian and therefore more likely E-V13 associated Western group was just cremating.

    This means even in a wider cultural sphere, like Hallstatt or Vekerzug, the specific groups more likely to have increased E-V13, like in Vekerzug the Eastern province, and for Eastern Hallstatt the Frög group, did as a rule cremate and can't be properly tested. Like we will get more Vekerzug and Hallstatt samples which are less likely to carry E-V13, throughout the whole Iron Age.

    There are just a couple of exceptions, and those need to be looked at most carefully, like Thraco-Cimmerian local Mezocsat samples, Basarabi, Psenichevo (already E-V13) and Babadag inhumation burials.

    A lot of the Urnfield cultures beliefs and rites seems to have an origin in the Carpathian basin. So they spread the cremation rite to others, including Slavs and Germanics (transmitted by Lusatians and Western Urnfield groups).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    MBA-LBA-EIA i bet on Balkan-Carpathian horizont. From Vatin-Belegis to Gava/Ottomany/Wietenberg. South/West to North/East cline.

    Beyond MBA i cannot say anything, i would even say in Early Bronze Age E-V13 could have been even more inland Balkans, say Bubanj-Hum. But, at this stage i don't bet on anything. But, i can exclude Steppe and Anatolia for sure otherwise we could have seen old subclades from there, but not the case.
    Bubanj-Hum is a candidate, but I think, if it was more Southern, it will be more South Eastern, rather, like in the direction of Southern, Transcarpathian Romania. But at the moment a more Northern centre, like around Ukraine Transcarpathia, NW-Romania, NE-Hungary, very SE-Slovakia, is the most likely candidate. Because there we have a continuous, less disturbed, local element, from Makó into Nyirseg, into Otomani -> Suciu de Sus/Lapus/Berkesz-Demecser -> Gáva/Channelled Ware.

    But again, if more Southern, I would check areas like Oltenia first:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olteni..._Wallachia.svg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Tbh I think it's too late for them, but I don't think they will get any backlash from south albanians but rather probably kosova albanians.

    Some of the stuff this guy and fustan wrote about kosova albanians, even saying filthy things about war victims, I'm pretty sure they will face consequences. There are Kosova Albanians that will not tolerate offending them on certain subjects, especially if they have victims in their family from the war, and also tbh they are vengeful and not about forgive and forget. Kosova youth has thousands working in IT, this site is super easy to track IPs through, and there are some lines that cannot be crossed. Their obsession with hating on kosova albanians is recorded here on countless posts and will cost them imo.
    Good thing you indicated that your family did not fight for UÇK and did not have victims. Did you come to Albania to hide and eat for free? Or you chose some better country?

    “There are Kosovo Albanians that will not tolerate offending them…”, yes, but you’re not one of them. There’s a reason they’re Kosovo Albanians and not Trojan wannabes.

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    I never understood why Illyrian-Albanian continuity attracted so many creeps and weirdos with batshit crazy theories. You have a territory in the middle of the freaking Roman Empire that connected Rome and Constantinople, but somehow random tribes sneaked in and replaced Illyrians without anyone taking note. Do you realize how utterly insane this sounds? You have Byzantine Emperors that were from Illyrian families in Durres as late as the 400s/500s. This wasn't some remote place in the middle of ******* nowhere that was unknown to historians.

    The reality that the Albanoi, an Illyrian tribe, are the forefathers of Albanians, is just too much to handle. This is not a historical, linguistic or archeological problem. This is a psychological problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    So we kind of agree on all points. As I said looking at Yfull it is evident that the diversity boom happened around LBA-IA. Hence I tend to follow the cremation line of thinking. I would question it if we had any other homeland for E-V13, say steppe, Central Europe or Anatolia but so far the indication is that it is local to the Balkan-Carpathian region, hence if it was there and we have no samples one has to concede that cremation is the best hypothesis.
    It's not a hypothesis. It's copium overload.

    SANU literally pointed out a massive founder effect of EV-13. There is nothing to argue here. I've been saying this shit since forever. EV-13 got more popular with time, because Y-DNA frequencies change with time.

    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    A second EV-13 in Croatia during antiquity has been confirmed. This was actually during when the period they were called "Illyrians" by the Romans.
    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post

    Like I always said, EV-13 has always been present in the Western Balkans, it was just a minority lineage. Even today, outside of Kosovo it maxes out at 20-30% amongst Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians. In Kosovo we can see a recent massive founder effect due to tribes like Berisha that migrated there a few hundred years back.


    This was before SANU ^^^

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    According to enter_tain/Dardapara/fake Gashi gurit E-V13 was a minority Y-DNA in Western Balkans, and that's all the story, during Roman times they grew up in size and populated all Balkans.

    This version of history obviously benefits his lineage. He wants to build this chronology. This propaganda will and shall not pass through our bullshit radar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    According to enter_tain/Dardapara/fake Gashi gurit E-V13 was a minority Y-DNA in Western Balkans, and that's all the story, during Roman times they grew up in size and populated all Balkans.
    The problem is that the modern data contradicts any such claims 100 %. E-V13 did grow more in the EBA than in the Roman era! And it grew many dozens of times more in the LBA-EIA transition than in the Roman era. This means if its not being found in the Balkans, over large territories, by the Bronze Age, it simply wasn't there, at least not in the inhumation burial groups. And this inevitably links them with the Carpatho-Balkan cremating groups, in the Transitional Period to Eastern Urnfield/Channelled Ware/Thracians.

    In the Roman period, after the Dacians being conquered, there was a near collapse and great loss of many E-V13 lineages. Nothing like a significant growth at all, but the very opposite. It is in the modern data and distribution, and unlikey other such models, its not questionable or ambiguous, but 100 percent clear.

    Because new branches could be wrongly dated by some 100 years, single ones in particular, but the whole phylogeny of E-V13 can't be so completely wrong, we already have the data to prove it. There was absolutely no significant growth in the Roman period, E-V13 was drastically shrinking, with many lineages getting lost, in the Roman era. They grew more with Celts and Dacians than with Romans.

    Also look at the Urnfield peak of E-V13:


    At that time J-L283 was already in control of much of the Balkans. Its very clear that such a large haplogroup for the Carpatho-Balkan region can't hide in between J-L283 settled areas of Eastern Bosnia, which is the only non-Thracian, Carpathian-related region not sampled yet. Also note the later Iron Age Illyrian expanson, especially of the Albanian-related J-L283 lineages. They expanded after Urnfield, within the Hallstatt Iron Age. Then came the Celts.

    The Roman era was for E-V13 the worst period since the invasion of the Tumulus culture from the West (Koszider horizon, collapse of various Pannnonian Tell cultures).

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    I agree, i wouldn't even insist, but seeing these bythmindila that have overtaken all social media spreading propaganda against us, is something unbearable.

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    Here, Matzinger in Albanian explains clearly that proto-Albanians must have learnt of Durrës in a later period when it was already under roman control

    Otherwise if they had known it since the pre-roman era and known it under the form of /Durrakio-/, the form today in Albanian would be **Dúrrëq and not Durrës, which is a loan from late latin */Dúrratso-/






    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Here, Matzinger in Albanian explains clearly that proto-Albanians must have learnt of Durrës in a later period when it was already under roman control

    Otherwise if they had known it since the pre-roman era and known it under the form of /Durrakio-/, the form today in Albanian would be **Dúrrëq and not Durrës, which is a loan from late latin */Dúrratso-/
    Chances are Proto-Albanian survived in a more rural, remote area, in which pastoralist clans dominated the landscape even during the Roman period. By the way: Was early Albanian strictly patriarchal? I mean did they use agnatic terms for the female relatives, like no terms for female relatives or secdonarily male relative derived?
    Most Romance languages became cognatic:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognatic_kinship

    Even the Vlachs, which turned back to a more patriarchal and pastoralist way of life, never reverted to an agnatic language. This would support a relative isolation from Roman customs - if they were strictly patriarchal-patrilinear and even agnatic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Chances are Proto-Albanian survived in a more rural, remote area, in which pastoralist clans dominated the landscape even during the Roman period. By the way: Was early Albanian strictly patriarchal? I mean did they use agnatic terms for the female relatives, like no terms for female relatives or secdonarily male relative derived?
    Most Romance languages became cognatic:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognatic_kinship

    Even the Vlachs, which turned back to a more patriarchal and pastoralist way of life, never reverted to an agnatic language. This would support a relative isolation from Roman customs - if they were strictly patriarchal-patrilinear and even agnatic.
    Linguistically cant say for sure about proto-albanian family terms since a lot of family terms are loans from turkish, latin,etc.

    Antropologically, i remember Karl Kaser writing that albanian clan structure was agnatic and focussed around father-son and brother-brother dyads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Linguistically cant say for sure about proto-albanian family terms since a lot of family terms are loans from turkish, latin,etc.
    Antropologically, i remember Karl Kaser writing that albanian clan structure was agnatic and focussed around father-son and brother-brother dyads.
    Its important because we have cases of IE reverting to agnatic structures more or less, but not to agnatic linguistic features. It's like if the step towards cognatic was done once, even if people become fairly patriarchal secondarily, they rarely revert to a completely agnatic mindset and linguistic structure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    According to enter_tain/Dardapara/fake Gashi gurit E-V13 was a minority Y-DNA in Western Balkans, and that's all the story, during Roman times they grew up in size and populated all Balkans.

    This version of history obviously benefits his lineage. He wants to build this chronology. This propaganda will and shall not pass through our bullshit radar.
    What propaganda you tool? This is literally what the SANU graph showed.

    You think founder effects don't exist, and % of Y-DNA increasing is due to hidden people being cremated. Do you know how idiotic you sound?

    We have countless evidence of Y-DNA% ratios changing drastically over thousands of years due to founder effects. RZ2103 was overwhelmingly dominant and over time it became a minority lineage. That's what happens.

    We're talking about 4 to 5000 year period, and you want %DNAs to stay the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Here, Matzinger in Albanian explains clearly that proto-Albanians must have learnt of Durrës in a later period when it was already under roman control

    Otherwise if they had known it since the pre-roman era and known it under the form of /Durrakio-/, the form today in Albanian would be **Dúrrëq and not Durrës, which is a loan from late latin */Dúrratso-/






    Durres comes from Durratio. That was the early intermediate form. "Durreq" cannot derive from that.

    If your cereal box linguist Matzinger did more than 5 minutes of research he would've found that, instead of saying crap like Durres should've been "Durreq".

    "The modern Albanian pronunciation is derived from either the Latin or Greek source. However, the modern Albanian form, including the Italian form, derive through intermediate palatalized antecedent form as Dyrratio, attested in the early centuries AD[1]. The presevation of Old Doric Greek/u/ indicates the modern name derives from populations to whom the toponym was known in its original Doric pronunciation[2]"

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    What propaganda you tool? This is literally what the SANU graph showed.

    You think founder effects don't exist, and % of Y-DNA increasing is due to hidden people being cremated. Do you know how idiotic you sound?

    We have countless evidence of Y-DNA% ratios changing drastically over thousands of years due to founder effects. RZ2103 was overwhelmingly dominant and over time it became a minority lineage. That's what happens.

    We're talking about 4 to 5000 year period, and you want %DNAs to stay the same.
    What you ignore is that the expansion of the majority of the branches of E-V13 can be dated and there is a huge peak in the LBA-EIA transition, around 1.200 BC. Both YFull and FTDNA are in agreement with this, as will be future studies on the object. So you can argue like that for the EBA, but not the LBA-EIA. In that time period E-V13 was percentage wise as big or bigger as it is now in Europe total. And this means it can't have been a mixed in minority lineage or hidden in a small part of the unsampled Balkans, but it was with the cremating cultures indeed.
    J-L283 was much smaller in that time, yet it covered most of the Balkans. And its also clear that the E-V13 lineages, even those which are now in Britain, Scandinavia, Iberia, Russia, China, Armenia etc., etc. lived still largely together about 1.200 BC. This is the main timing for the split of the branches. After that, especially after Hallstatt-La Tene, there is very little overlap between the main branches of the Balkans and other parts of Europe.

    E-V13 was not old in the Balkans and it wasn't the result of a primarily recent Balkan expansion. It expanded primarily in the MBA-MIA. If we have regions sampled in that time frame, in which inhumation was the rule, like among Illyrians, and we don't find it in large numbers, then its simple, it wasn't there in significant numbers.

    With the cremating groups its way more difficult, just like it is with Jastorf Germanics and cremating Slavs as well. They can't be tested.

    We know, even from modern periods, that funerary customs matter a lot, because they being tied to religious beliefs and ethnocultural background. Like orthodox Jews don't cremate, Hindus however do. So if in a city Hindus and orthodox Jews live, which people will get sampled if just getting the inhumation burials? It won't be representative for the total population. And Thracians, especially the Northern ones, did cremate for a prolonged period of time. Even under Scytho-Sarmatian influence, like in the Eastern Vekerzug group.

    What will pop up in the Roman era, and this is already visible, being migrants from the Carpatho-Balkan sphere, which switched to inhumation in other areas and later at home too. Like a Thracian soldier or slave might have switched to inhumation in a foreign Roman province, as did the Celtic tribes from Central Europe, which did prefer cremation as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Durres comes from Durratio. That was the early intermediate form. "Durreq" cannot derive from that.

    If your cereal box linguist Matzinger did more than 5 minutes of research he would've found that, instead of saying crap like Durres should've been "Durreq".

    "The modern Albanian pronunciation is derived from either the Latin or Greek source. However, the modern Albanian form, including the Italian form, derive through intermediate palatalized antecedent form as Dyrratio, attested in the early centuries AD[1]. "
    Hey wikipedia slave, do you even understand what you copy paste?

    I'm still waiting for your citations about "all scholars" supporting Albano-germanic, and your page numbers for where Strabo claims Delmion was a sheep feeding plain?

    Meanwhile, did you not read what you sent?

    Read it again:

    "derive through intermediate palatalized antecedent form as Dyrratio" palatalization of /t/ is /ts/, hence /Dúrratso-/


    Dyrratio is a post Roman name, its what Romans called it.

    The old name is Dyrrachion, hence, /Dúrrakio-/ is how proto-Albanians would have known this city if they were there before the Romans.

    The /k/ would have become /q/ in Albanian, hence Dúrrëq


    Also:

    AHowever, the modern Albanian form, including the Italian form

    Wow, Italians must be autochtonous to Durrës.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Durres comes from Durratio. That was the early intermediate form. "Durreq" cannot derive from that.

    If your cereal box linguist Matzinger did more than 5 minutes of research he would've found that, instead of saying crap like Durres should've been "Durreq".

    "The modern Albanian pronunciation is derived from either the Latin or Greek source. However, the modern Albanian form, including the Italian form, derive through intermediate palatalized antecedent form as Dyrratio, attested in the early centuries AD[1]. The presevation of Old Doric Greek/u/ indicates the modern name derives from populations to whom the toponym was known in its original Doric pronunciation[2]"
    Also, why did you not post the rest of the quote you got from Wiki:

    "The modern Albanian name evolved independently from the parent language of Albanian around the same period of the post-Roman era in the first centuries AD, observable through the differences in stress in the two toponyms (first syllable in Albanian, second in Italian) highlights."

    In the first centuries AD!

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    Mendimi im është që të bëni pushim dhe të mos hyni në forum për ca kohë derisa (mbase) të harrohen këto që kanë ndodhur sepse keni lënë koqen e namit. Merruni me diçka tjetër, ka plot gjëra interesante për të bërë në jetë. Unë kështu mendoj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    This is a propaganda stemming from foleja/Albanian DNA/Rrenjet affiliaties, and of course people like Dushman/Excine don't see any problem with it, on contrary, that's why they get so pissed and triggered whenever they hear Central Balkans/Eastern Balkans Dacian/Thracian related sites leaked or revealed as E-V13. Because they need to fit this scenario.

    But, the reality as stated in this paper is:
    Man, you with this shit again. Can you point us to what propaganda we are spreading?

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    Për amatorët arrogantë që nuk e kanë haberin.

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    [Matzinger<3Derite Logic]Proto-Albanians originated in Dardania/Moesia but because they call this land Kosova (which is Slavic), it means they don't know the name of their own homeland[/Matzinger<3Derite Logic].

    How can you except these Moesian shepherds to know Durres, Skodra, Vlona, when they don't even know Dardania, or Moesia, or Dacia.

    According to Matzinger, using Albanian sound rules, how would Albanians call Dardania? Derdhnija? Moesia -> Mishja, Dacia -> Deqja. What about Illyria? Lirja. But...they didn't know any of those names.

    Did they even know the Roman Empire? The only old surviving word is how we used to call Italians that those are 'lti' in Gheg and 'letir' in Tosk, for Latin. Perandoria Ltine? The Empire of Latins? Hmmm, makes no sense.

    Conclusion, Proto-Albanians didn't know of Romans therefore they lived not only outside of the Roman Empire, but even far from its borders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Hey wikipedia slave, do you even understand what you copy paste?

    I'm still waiting for your citations about "all scholars" supporting Albano-germanic, and your page numbers for where Strabo claims Delmion was a sheep feeding plain?

    Meanwhile, did you not read what you sent?

    Read it again:

    "derive through intermediate palatalized antecedent form as Dyrratio" palatalization of /t/ is /ts/, hence /Dúrratso-/


    Dyrratio is a post Roman name, its what Romans called it.

    The old name is Dyrrachion, hence, /Dúrrakio-/ is how proto-Albanians would have known this city if they were there before the Romans.

    The /k/ would have become /q/ in Albanian, hence Dúrrëq


    Also:

    AHowever, the modern Albanian form, including the Italian form

    Wow, Italians must be autochtonous to Durrës.
    You're such an idiot. Durres is not an Albanian name. It's a Doric Greek colony that were inhabited by Greeks, Romans, Illyrians. Durres/Apollonia were Corinthian colonies on Illyrian soil.

    Both the Albanian/Italian names are derived independently from Dyrratio, which was the name during the time of the Roman Empire.

    Like I said, Matzinger is an utterly clueless clown, that doesn't even bother doing 2 seconds of research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    You're such an idiot. Durres is not an Albanian name. It's a Doric Greek colony that inhabited by Greeks, Romans, Illyrians. Durres/Apollonia were Corinthian colonies on Illyrian soil.

    Both the Albanian/Italian names are derived independently from Dyrratio.

    Like I said, Matzinger is an utterly clueless clown, that doesn't even bother doing 2 seconds of research.
    Yes, and the Doric Greek colony was called... Dyrrachion.

    You sent a link saying Albanian Durrës comes from an intermediate, and not directly from Dyrrachion, as proof that Albanian had a pre-roman presence in Durrës.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Yes, and the Doric Greek colony was called... Dyrrachion.

    You sent a link saying Albanian Durrës comes from an intermediate, and not directly from Dyrrachion, as proof that Albanian had a pre-roman presence in Durrës.
    Yes, moron. The intermediate "Dyrratio" was in the early centuries AD. There were still Illyrians in Albania then. The Greeks founded the city 700-800 years prior in the Iron Age.

    Both the modern Italian and Albanian derive from "Dyrratio". No one was using "Dyrrachion" during the time of the Roman Empire, which is what we're talking about.

  24. #2099
    Regular Member
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    J2B2-L283/Z638

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    as proof that Albanian had a pre-roman presence in Durrës.
    I never said "Pre-Roman". I said at the time of the Illyrians, which lived there clearly until 500 AD. You said "Pre-Roman" since you realized your boyfriend Matzinger made another huge blunder.

  25. #2100
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    E-V13

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    What propaganda you tool? This is literally what the SANU graph showed.

    You think founder effects don't exist, and % of Y-DNA increasing is due to hidden people being cremated. Do you know how idiotic you sound?

    We have countless evidence of Y-DNA% ratios changing drastically over thousands of years due to founder effects. RZ2103 was overwhelmingly dominant and over time it became a minority lineage. That's what happens.

    We're talking about 4 to 5000 year period, and you want %DNAs to stay the same.
    SANU graph showed the appearance of E-V13 in Iron Age. Danubian Lime paper explicitely states the E-V13 natives come from cremating cultures something which you ignore. The 0-500 column increase is due to Christianity spread and the prevail of inhumation. No explicit relation to complete Roman Empire soldier expansion as you try to imply

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