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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

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    I believe in that region or near by lived a large amount of Vlachs

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    Probably all date to Ottoman period, if they derive from Albanian. Zabel definitely doesn’t though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    You think there was a sizeable enough Albanian population in southwest bulgaria in the middle ages bordering pirot and such that could have left these toponyms?
    I am not sure about this.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Nice, it’s plausible Proto-Albanians originate from there, deep into Thracian territory and potential high Greek influence, surrounded by settlements ending with -para and -deva, but God forbid they were near Scodra and Dyrrhachium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I mapped your suggestions, I also added some I saw along the way like "Zabel".

    We need some professional linguists that are also specialists of these old slavic dialects in these regions and proto-Albanian to run a systematic sweep of all toponyms and microtoponyms, I think it could be very fruitful.
    Before "mapping" you should learn some ......Albanian language.
    In Albanian language there is the word ar/ë and there is also the word arr/ë. These are two different words. Ar/ë in English is translated arable land meanwhile arr/ë is translated walnut.
    BTW, i don't know what scientific methodology have you guys used when you link for example the toponym Dumbija with the Albanian dhëmb(tooth). Personally to me this toponym sounds more closer to the English dumbass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pashai Janinës View Post
    methodology have you guys used when you link for example the toponym Dumbija with the Albanian dhëmb(tooth). Personally to me this toponym sounds more closer to the English dumbass.
    What about the Albanian word Bukur, you think this is unrelated to the two places Bukurovtsi and Bukurovac. These are totally unrelated to Albanian correct?

    Meanwhile names like epicados, very albanian
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    What about the Albanian word Bukur, you think this is unrelated to the two places Bukurovtsi and Bukurovac. These are totally unrelated to Albanian correct?
    Meanwhile names like epicados, very albanian
    Maybe those toponyms are related to the Albanian word bukur, maybe because we know nothing about those toponyms. Maybe even Bukuresht is from bukur është, maybe. But between Grapa and Gropa ce in mezzo il mare. Science doesn't work following your imagination but certain rules and criterias.
    You have no idea about Albanian names. Trust me. Start first with learning some Albanian Language.
    Btw, nice try in cherry picking. lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I mapped your suggestions, I also added some I saw along the way like "Zabel".

    We need some professional linguists that are also specialists of these old slavic dialects in these regions and proto-Albanian to run a systematic sweep of all toponyms and microtoponyms, I think it could be very fruitful.

    Zabel is Slavic borrowing. When I made that list I also took a lot of time to search for similar toponyms in other Slavic countries, to make sure I was not just getting carried away. These toponyms are unique in the Slavic world, they only occur in this region. There are two Dreatin in Bulgaria btw, both near eachother. Resen might be occurring among Slavic countries, but rest are not. What interesting about this region is some of these toponyms mirror each other, they occur on both sides of the border suggesting this region was linguistically one unit.
    Bukurovtsi - Bulgaria, Bukurovac - Serbia
    Kambelevetsi - Bulgaria, Kambelevci - Serbia
    Gaganitsa - Bulgaria, Gagince - Serbia
    Lyalintsi - Bulgaria, Lalince - Serbia

    So I would that these as well,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalince
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagince
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambelevci
    http://www.fallingrain.com/world/RI/00/Gola_Cuka.html

    http://www.fallingrain.com/world/RI/00/Bukarci.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berilovac

    http://www.fallingrain.com/world/RI/B9/Surdulica.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubera%C4%91a






    Cuka, related to Albanian Cuke (peak on mountain ridge).
    Bukarci, possibly another corruption of bukur.
    Berilovac, based on Serbian sources, named after a male named Berilo (burel, berryl) in the middle ages (non-Slavic names that lingered for a time).
    Surdulica - Shurdh
    Ljuberađa - Looks very alien to Slavic. Could be a corruption of lumbardhe.

    Macedonia:
    http://www.fallingrain.com/world/MK/62/Bukoravenci.html
    http://www.fallingrain.com/world/MK/97/Dzambasci.html

    Dzambasci - Gjemb(thorn)? The word structure is again alien to Slavic throat.

    Some of these as blevins noted can also be Romanian/Vlach, like Cuke, Shurdh, grapa, however given the fact that other toponyms of the area are restricted to Albanian explanation, I favor a early Albanian explanation. Like I said in the original post, getting census information from the middle ages would help, because for these toponyms to survive a branch of the early Albanians had to have stayed behind and get absorbed by the Slavs.

    As I noted before on the Bulgarian settement of Lyalintsi:
    Lyalintsi (Bulgarian: Лялинци) is a village in Tran Municipality, Pernik Province. It is located in western Bulgaria, 65 km from the capital city of Sofia. The village was first mentioned in 1446 as Lelintsi and in 1455 as Lyalintsi. It is derived from the personal name Lyalya, "aunt", the nickname lyalya or lala.

    Lala is Albanian, if that's a slang for aunt among Slavs, I would like to see someone prove it. It is a slang for uncle or big brother among Albanians and Arberesh.
    https://www.familysearch.org/en/surname?surname=LAFA
    Last edited by PaleoRevenge; 16-07-22 at 06:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    What about the Albanian word Bukur, you think this is unrelated to the two places Bukurovtsi and Bukurovac. These are totally unrelated to Albanian correct?
    Meanwhile names like epicados, very albanian
    He is chimping out. Arrez is found even in Hoti region in Montenegro, in Serbian spelling it is almost the same as Bulgarian Arzan.
    http://www.fallingrain.com/world/MJ/00/Arza.html

    It's also found in Funar region of Chameria, you can see it in old maps, and of course all over Albania. Pretty much entirely absent in Slavic countries. The toponym is strongly linked with Albanian presence.

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    Delvine has nothing to do with Dalmatia. This is the typical hysterical way how these clowns force a Illyrian connection, this is their proof.

    Delvine toponym is restricted to south Albania, it occurs in Epirus as well, and the Greeks associate with Albanians. They for whatever reason associated with vineyards. I do not know how they arrived at that conclusion since that word is not used as far as I know for vineyard.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delvinaki



    Or did Illyrians settle in south-west Bulgaria?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delvin...vgrad_Province

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    It's truly incredible how medieval and modern toponyms which obviously exist in eastern Serbia and northwestern Bulgaria because of Vlachs and maybe Albanians who moved there in the late medieval and Ottoman era, somehow became "Proto-Albanian" and proof that "maybe" Proto-Albanian was spoken just in this corner of the Balkans which was strongly influenced by Greek


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jire%C...Matzinger).png


    Even more dubious are the etymologies themselves. Almost all of these make 0 linguistic sense for a connection with Albanian.


    They're so absurd that somehow Resen, a Slavic toponym which also exists on the borders of Albania-North Macedonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resen,_North_Macedonia somehow became .... Rreshen only for Derite to claim that Albanians migrated from northwestern Bulgaria to Mirdita!! It's absolutely fringe.


    Not a single linguist or even someone who has attended any sort of university class about linguistics would ever propose such a thing.


    Once more we see obvious, pseudo-scientific, fringe speculation.





    Finding some medieval Albanian toponyms in Bulgaria isn't even uncommon because Albanians did migrate to Bulgaria. That's why toponyms like
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbanasi_(Veliko_Tarnovo) Arbanasi exist. Or are you going to claim next that the name "Arben"/"Arban" comes from Bulgaria?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Zabel is Slavic borrowing. When I made that list I also took a lot of time to search for similar toponyms in other Slavic countries, to make sure I was not just getting carried away. These toponyms are unique in the Slavic world, they only occur in this region. There are two Dreatin in Bulgaria btw, both near eachother. Resen might be occurring among Slavic countries, but rest are not. What interesting about this region is some of these toponyms mirror each other, they occur on both sides of the border suggesting this region was linguistically one unit.
    Bukurovtsi - Bulgaria, Bukurovac - Serbia
    Kambelevetsi - Bulgaria, Kambelevci - Serbia
    Gaganitsa - Bulgaria, Gagince - Serbia
    Lyalintsi - Bulgaria, Lalince - Serbia

    So I would that these as well,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalince
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagince
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambelevci
    http://www.fallingrain.com/world/RI/00/Gola_Cuka.html

    http://www.fallingrain.com/world/RI/00/Bukarci.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berilovac

    http://www.fallingrain.com/world/RI/B9/Surdulica.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubera%C4%91a






    Cuka, related to Albanian Cuke (peak on mountain ridge).
    Bukarci, possibly another corruption of bukur.
    Berilovac, based on Serbian sources, named after a male named Berilo (burel, berryl) in the middle ages (non-Slavic names that lingered for a time).
    Surdulica - Shurdh
    Ljuberađa - Looks very alien to Slavic. Could be a corruption of lumbardhe.

    Macedonia:
    http://www.fallingrain.com/world/MK/62/Bukoravenci.html
    http://www.fallingrain.com/world/MK/97/Dzambasci.html

    Dzambasci - Gjemb(thorn)? The word structure is again alien to Slavic throat.

    Some of these as blevins noted can also be Romanian/Vlach, like Cuke, Shurdh, grapa, however given the fact that other toponyms of the area are restricted to Albanian explanation, I favor a early Albanian explanation. Like I said in the original post, getting census information from the middle ages would help, because for these toponyms to survive a branch of the early Albanians had to have stayed behind and get absorbed by the Slavs.

    As I noted before on the Bulgarian settement of Lyalintsi:
    Lyalintsi (Bulgarian: Лялинци) is a village in Tran Municipality, Pernik Province. It is located in western Bulgaria, 65 km from the capital city of Sofia. The village was first mentioned in 1446 as Lelintsi and in 1455 as Lyalintsi. It is derived from the personal name Lyalya, "aunt", the nickname lyalya or lala.

    Lala is Albanian, if that's a slang for aunt among Slavs, I would like to see someone prove it. It is a slang for uncle or big brother among Albanians and Arberesh.
    https://www.familysearch.org/en/surname?surname=LAFA
    Many of those words look interesting, but i must agree Albanian presence in Western Bulgaria during Ottoman times is weak, Pirot was the border and they were in constant clash with Bulgarians there.

    One more thing, Ljuborada is not alien to Slavic, it looks 100% Slavic to me.

    Ljubo=love,passion and rada=born

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    It's truly incredible how medieval and modern toponyms which obviously exist in eastern Serbia and northwestern Bulgaria because of Vlachs and maybe Albanians who moved there in the late medieval and Ottoman era, somehow became "Proto-Albanian" and proof that "maybe" Proto-Albanian was spoken just in this corner of the Balkans which was strongly influenced by Greek


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jire%C...Matzinger).png


    Even more dubious are the etymologies themselves. Almost all of these make 0 linguistic sense for a connection with Albanian.


    They're so absurd that somehow Resen, a Slavic toponym which also exists on the borders of Albania-North Macedonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resen,_North_Macedonia somehow became .... Rreshen only for Derite to claim that Albanians migrated from northwestern Bulgaria to Mirdita!! It's absolutely fringe.


    Not a single linguist or even someone who has attended any sort of university class about linguistics would ever propose such a thing.


    Once more we see obvious, pseudo-scientific, fringe speculation.





    Finding some medieval Albanian toponyms in Bulgaria isn't even uncommon because Albanians did migrate to Bulgaria. That's why toponyms like
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbanasi_(Veliko_Tarnovo) Arbanasi exist. Or are you going to claim next that the name "Arben"/"Arban" comes from Bulgaria?
    He just proposed with a question mark in the end, not stamping anything at all. Just like PaleoRevenge said, your baby tantrums are annoying

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    Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The proto-Albanian and proto-romanian linguistic relationship requires that they were living next to each other in late antiqutiy
    The next to each other is not overlapping each other or mixed with each other. Are you proposing that Albanian and Romanian villages were mixed in that area?


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The next to each other is not overlapping each other or mixed with each other. Are you proposing that Albanian and Romanian villages were mixed in that area?
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    Ça e zgjasni kot këtë muhabet. Tjetri është nga Kosova, të paktën kështu pretendon dhe nuk e di që gati 150 vjet më parë jugu I Serbisë ishte I banuar rrafsh me shqiptarë autoktonë në ato territore të cilët u spastruan nga serbët. Nuk e dinë këta as njëri dhe as tjetri dhe prandaj hapin sytë si idiotë kur shikojnë ndonjë toponim që u ngjason si Shqiptar. Jo vetëm kaq, por shtyhen kaq shumë sa shpalosin edhe teorinë se etnogjeneza e shqiptarëve zë fill në atë zonë! Edhe ljuba na doli fjalë Shqipe tani. E pabesueshme por e vërtetë, na nxorën bojën faqe botës me karllëqet e tyre. Marrëzia njerëzore nuk paska fund.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The next to each other is not overlapping each other or mixed with each other. Are you proposing that Albanian and Romanian villages were mixed in that area?




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    Some linguists like Prendergast argue the following:

    "Balkan Romance is the outcome of a full shift of Albanian speakers into the Roman, Late Latin-speaking settlement community, resulting in a form of Balkan Latin that shared many grammatical and some lexical properties with Albanian."

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    Here some village names mentioned in the previous posts and their variation in some Ottoman documents:

    Bukorovats aka Buhova
    Bukurovce aka Dolna Bukorofcha
    Bilishte aka Bihlishte
    Dreatin is a new village, settled by inhabitants from Nedelishte
    Businche;Bushindzhe;Boshentsi;Bisintsi (yep, these all four variants for the same place)
    Arzan was some bey ciftlik, no mention of the origins of the landlord or the workforce
    "Zabel" means also "branishte" , "little forest" (in an Ottoman document found оnce also as Zhabel /Жабел)
    Gintsi , aka Gintcha in some docs.



    Here is a list of Pirot area villages ,post y.1878. First column the Serbisized (per Milicevic, "Kralevina Srbija") version of the villages, and in the fourth column- the original ones.


    http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/index.htm


    http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/sh_t1.jpg
    http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/sh_t2.jpg
    http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/sh_t3.jpg
    http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/sh_t4.jpg


    Burel , versions of origin - "burya" (storm); "bure" (barrel)..or from the Bulgar "bur" - limestone (could not find any proof of this). List of all villages of the Burel Valley :


    https://books.google.com/books/conte...eZJi3nA&w=1025


    And some local lore that existed on both sides of the border and also in Sofia region:
    "MuzhEte sto smo, Rusi smo, a zhenEte ni su latInke" (We, the men ,are from Rus' , and our women are Latin"...the stressed vowels in caps).
    https://books.google.com/books/conte...m0rx5MA&w=1025

    As for Ruy , some think it comes from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%B...#Ancient_Greek
    ...or Latin "Rhus".

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Delvine has nothing to do with Dalmatia. This is the typical hysterical way how these clowns force a Illyrian connection, this is their proof.

    Delvine toponym is restricted to south Albania, it occurs in Epirus as well, and the Greeks associate with Albanians. They for whatever reason associated with vineyards. I do not know how they arrived at that conclusion since that word is not used as far as I know for vineyard.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delvinaki



    Or did Illyrians settle in south-west Bulgaria?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delvin...vgrad_Province
    Their proof is essentially "proof by saying so" style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pashai Janinës View Post
    Before "mapping" you should learn some ......Albanian language.
    In Albanian language there is the word ar/ë and there is also the word arr/ë. These are two different words. Ar/ë in English is translated arable land meanwhile arr/ë is translated walnut.
    BTW, i don't know what scientific methodology have you guys used when you link for example the toponym Dumbija with the Albanian dhëmb(tooth). Personally to me this toponym sounds more closer to the English dumbass.
    A word that came to my mind was Greek tumbos (mound, burial mound and secondary meaning grave)

    It is probably from another language though, since there is a root tum- 'to swell' and indications that related words could have been used for mounts but even hills or mountains (a meaning 'small hill' at least in Celtic).
    tumb- words in Greek, Celtic and Armenian.

    The Greek toponym Tymphe is probably related. It reflects something like ~ Tumbha

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    A word that came to my mind was Greek tumbos (mound, burial mound and secondary meaning grave)

    It is probably from another language though, since there is a root tum- 'to swell' and indications that related words could have been used for mounts but even hills or mountains (a meaning 'small hill' at least in Celtic).
    tumb- words in Greek, Celtic and Armenian.

    The Greek toponym Tymphe is probably related. It reflects something like ~ Tumbha
    Τυμβος is older archaic Greek
    in Makedonian is Τουμπα,
    Makkedonian b->f in southern Greek like berenika ferenike, kebale kefalh Βερενικα-Φερανικη Κεβαλη-κεφαλη,
    so Toumba > toyfa -> tafos







    Δομω
    the strange here is that should be Doumba in Greek to cognate with tomp etc etc Grimm law working backwards, which in Greek is the Δομω δομησις Δωμα κτλ
    strange the simmilarity with Latin tumba where it must a loan and Back

    Greek tumbos ->latin tumba -> greek toumpa
    while Greek tumbos -> tafos taphos

    Same anomally also appears in burrying ritual ταφη ενταφιαζω <--> θαπτω *dʰembʰ-
    sound theta could not exist in LPIE, so most possible is NW Greek and Makedonian use the D as Dapto Δαπτω
    according voice virb has future tense form θαψω και θαβω (thabo?)

    so could tumbos be coccected with *dʰembʰ- ?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

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    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
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    I have been thinking about this whole Albanoi thing, is it possible a name that also could of been picked up by some other tribe like what happened to Bulgarians and Serboi ?

    For a tribal population with a fairly low level of material culture, reaching the line of the Danube and looking south was the equivalent of a hungry man pressing his face against the window of a grocery. The Balkans, fully restored to Byzantine control under the energetic Emperor Justinian (527-65), contained many flourishing towns and cities, supported by productive agriculture and active trading routes. The Slavs were not the first to cross the Danube in search of better things. Germanic Goths had done so (with Byzantine permission, at first) in the fourth century, and had gone raiding as far as Greece and the Albanian coast thereafter; Huns, under Attila, had attacked in the 440s, and Bulgars (a Turkic tribe) had started raiding at the end of that century. [2] But none of these earlier invaders left any imprint on the Balkans comparable to that of the Slavs. Indeed, by the time that the Turkic-speaking Bulgars came to settle permanently in the Balkans in the seventh century, the Slav element was already so well established there that the conquering Bulgars were eventually to lose their own language and be absorbed by their Slav-speaking subjects. [3]
    While most details about the movement of the early Slavs into the Balkans are unclear, the basic facts are known. A large tribal population of Slavs - among whom the Serbs and the Croats were two particular tribes, or tribal groupings - occupied parts of central Europe, north of the Danube, in the fifth and sixth centuries ad. The Serbs had their power-base in the area of the Czech lands and Saxony, and the Croats in Bavaria, Slovakia and southern Poland. This central European location was not the earliest known home of the Serbs; most of the evidence points to an earlier migration from the north and north-eastern side of the Black Sea. At that earlier period the Serbs and Croats seem to have lived together with more warlike Iranian tribes, and their tribal names may derive from Iranian ruling elites: Ptolemy, writing in the second century ad, located the 'Serboi' among the Sarmatians (an Iranian grouping) on the northern side of the Caucasus. Little is known about the Slavs' way of life in these earlier periods. The first descriptions we have of them are by Byzantine writers, who portray them as a wild people, more pastoral than agricultural, with many chiefs but no supreme leader. [1]

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    I have been thinking about this whole Albanoi thing, is it possible a name that also could of been picked up by some other tribe like what happened to Bulgarians and Serboi ?
    Or. Or. Hear me out. Albanians are actually the Albanoi.

    I love how these people start with the assumption that they're not ​Illyrian, and work backwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Their proof is essentially "proof by saying so" style.
    "Their proof" is I quoted 2 linguists saying the same thing

    Istvan Schutz "The name of the Dalmatian/Delmata Illyrian tribe, Dalmatia/Delmatia area, the Illyrian city Delminium/Dalmion, and the name of the present-day Delvinë and Delvinaqi geographical units are related to the Albanian words dele (plural delme) 'sheep', delmer 'shepherd'. Strabo adds the epithet "...πεδιον μελωβοτον..." to the name of the Illyrian city Delmion, meaning "sheep-feeding plain"."

    "
    Linguist Xhelal Ylli translates Delvinë as "white sheep"."

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Or. Or. Hear me out. Albanians are actually the Albanoi.

    I love how these people start with the assumption that they're not ​Illyrian, and work backwards.
    We cannot be Illyrians because Skodra has sk- in it which in Albanian is h-, so no, sorry. They’re not Thracian either, nor Dacian.

    They are…


    Dardano-Trojans. Descendants of Priam, Hector, Aeneas, founders of Rome, therefore founders of the Western Civilization.

    Messapians -> J2b2, Messapian -> similarities to Albanian, Messapians -> from Eastern Adriatic, so Messapians = Illyrians? NO.

    Messapians = Dardanians = Channelled Ware pot users = Gava/Brnjica/Psenichevo.

    Dardanians stronk. Dardanians Newborn. Screw Illyrians. Screw their autosomal contribution.

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