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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    We cannot be Illyrians because Skodra has sk- in it which in Albanian is h-, so no, sorry. They’re not Thracian either, nor Dacian.

    They are…


    Dardano-Trojans. Descendants of Priam, Hector, Aeneas, founders of Rome, therefore founders of the Western Civilization.

    Messapians -> J2b2, Messapian -> similarities to Albanian, Messapians -> from Eastern Adriatic, so Messapians = Illyrians? NO.

    Messapians = Dardanians = Channelled Ware pot users = Gava/Brnjica/Psenichevo.

    Dardanians stronk. Dardanians Newborn. Screw Illyrians. Screw their autosomal contribution.
    The funny thing is that I pointed out that there are a lot of shk/shq (q comes from k) native words in Albanian.

    For example, "shqyej" (Proto-Alb *skanja) is related to the Greek word "schizo" (meaning divide), Roman "science" (divide/categorize), English work "skin", etc...

    Por tani sthua dot "te shqyefsha gojen". Duhet te thuhesh "te hyefsha gojen" sipas Matzinger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Un-Albanian development? What do you expect us to call a former Illyrian capital, regional center, Imperial town, Hod�r/Hodra?

    Similarly, Shkumbin should be humbin? Sk- to shk- is an Albanian development. You think 100% of sk became h? Ancient Greek and Latin both shifted Proto-IE sk to k/c, while preserving it in other instances.

    *shqerr - from dialectal shkjerr, from Proto-Albanian*skera, from Proto-Indo-European*(s)ker(H)- (compare Englishshear, Ancient Greekκείρω(ke�rō, to shear; ravage, destroy), Lithuaniansk�rti(to cut, divide)).

    *harr - from Proto-Albanian*skarna, from *skera. Cognate with Gothicus-skarjan(us-skarjan, to tear out), Lithuanianskiri�.

    *shkrep� 1 - from Proto-Albanian*krep-, from Proto-Indo-European*ker-p-, *krep-(to crack, crash), an onomatopoeic root. Cognate to Latincrepo(to resound, ring, tone). A formation with the prefix sh-.

    *shkrep� 2 - from a singularized plural of shkarp, a sh- prefixed formation from karp, from Proto-Indo-European*kṛHp-.

    *karp� - from Proto-Albanian*karpā, from Proto-Indo-European*kerp-(to pluck). Compare Lithuaniankar̃pas(hack, notch), Swedishharv(harrow), Ancient Greekκαρπός(karp�s, fruit). See also the name of the Carpathians.
    *shkrumb/shkrum - from Proto-Albanian*i�-kruma, with a non etymological -mb-<*m (cf. Romanian scrum, from Albanian) from Proto-Indo-European*krem, attested in Latin cremō(to burn)[1], or from Proto-Indo-European*skremb, *skr̥mb (cf. Lithuanian skrembti(to crust over, stiffen), Swedish skrympa(to shrink), English shrimp). Compare also Romanianscrum(ashes).

    You�re probably confusing the Albanian development with the etymology of Scodra which is an entirely different topic unrelated to the Albanian urheimat.

    It�s like saying Ancient Greek wasn�t spoken in Greece because Athens, Corinth, Larissa, etc. are Pre-Greek.

    You also have to define time periods as in what do you personally call Proto-Albanian? Because linguists mention Proto-Albanian to show its contact with Latin from 2nd century BC to 5th century AD. So Albanian was in Southern Illyrian in the 2nd century BC but it�s not an Illyrian language?

    What Albanian Urheimat are you talking about? 1600 BC? The urheimat could have been in Poland and Hungary for all I care. All those Albanian-Illyrian-Messapic cognates fall to deaf ears because you believe Scodra is not an Albanian development?

    Looking at the counter examples of k- to shk- with a sh- prefix it�s pretty plausible to include Shkodra deriving from kodra/kod�r (hill) as a theory to say the least.

    I�m starting to doubt Matzinger really said that and it�s rather your personal interpretation. Matzinger has been wrong before and has updated his theories, but the issue is people like you jumping into conclusions that fit your agenda.


    I don�t need your respect, neighbour. But you�re talking about my language here and you�re throwing baseless assumptions.


    You clearly called the language as Dardanian derived and not Illyrian, creating so many question marks as to when did the Dardanians/non-Illyrians migrate into Praevalitana and Epirus? Because it�s obvious they weren�t there prior the Roman occupation.

    According to you Albanian got Doric words from these Dardanians who got them from the Macedonians, but not from the Southern Illyrians who were in direct contact (land and sea route) with Doric Corinthians and their colonies. Extremely plausible, CEO of Logic.

    Now you�re probably going to twist the topic again and go into the pre 1200 BC era and mention the legendary Dardanians that even crossed into Anatolia to found Troy.

    The Galabri (Dardanians) crossed the Adriatic and settled in Apulia, giving birth to what would be later known as Calabri. Remember, they were Dardanians not Illyrians because Illyrians had sk-.
    My post from 1 year ago. Nothing wow as a post, just that even amateurs can scrap together few sk- words in Albanian, Greek, and Latin and dismiss the idiotic conclusions of Matzinger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Or. Or. Hear me out. Albanians are actually the Albanoi.

    I love how these people start with the assumption that they're not ​Illyrian, and work backwards.
    What has us not being Albanoi anything to do with not being Illyrian ? Where did I say we are not part Albanoi or that they did not contribute ? Most of the western Balkans was inhabited by Illyrian tribes. Where did all those tribes and people in Albania or other areas go ? What are you even on about ? There is also the entire Roman period. Where is the evidence that we came only from this tribe or the Albanian language in general ? Seems completely nonsense to me, especially when you take into consideration the entire Roman period. How could one single tribe of contributed throughout the Roman and Iron Age period and since their migration into the Balkans ? Many of these tribes branched off from each other.

    Illyrians were possibly from the Maykop Culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture where they found J2b2-L283 and R1b-L23. They were migrants from the Caucasus together with Thracians that settled the Balkans and inhabited also the Hallstatt. Do you really think people have always had an eternal presence in one single area ? You should look more into human migrations. Nothing suggests some kind of eternal presence even in the Balkans.

    For example Barleti mentions Albanians came from Colchis and settled Macedonia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    "Their proof" is I quoted 2 linguists saying the same thing

    Istvan Schutz "The name of the Dalmatian/Delmata Illyrian tribe, Dalmatia/Delmatia area, the Illyrian city Delminium/Dalmion, and the name of the present-day Delvinë and Delvinaqi geographical units are related to the Albanian words dele (plural delme) 'sheep', delmer 'shepherd'. Strabo adds the epithet "...πεδιον μελωβοτον..." to the name of the Illyrian city Delmion, meaning "sheep-feeding plain"."

    "
    Linguist Xhelal Ylli translates Delvinë as "white sheep"."
    This quote by schutz is not a primary source. Where does Strabo say this, which page of which of his writings. This is what you need to provide. I looked through the schutz book specifically for a citation and there is none. I went through strabos work looking for it and could not find it.

    Its clear there is some sort of misunderstanding or mix up that happened. Countless times some "examples" like these on wiki that I have followed up end up being completely made up by some zealot.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    I have been thinking about this whole Albanoi thing, is it possible a name that also could of been picked up by some other tribe like what happened to Bulgarians and Serboi ?
    Matzingers position is that the proto-Albanians first moved to north albanian regions, and that some historical process resulted in them adopting the ethnonym Albanoi.

    We see Albanians calling themselves and being called epirotes based on epirus nova in middle ages, so its not far fetched that if they lived in the region of arbanon they might adopt it as an ethnonym.

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    Whole lot of non sense. J2b-L283 was during LCA/EBA in the Balkans, heavily the East Adriatic zone, it was absolutely not in the Northern Caucasus nor has it anything to do with BA Maykop culture. There are papers on their way and during Early Copper Age/Chalcolithic minimum 6k ybp, since these rumors were known for quite a while, prior to IE migrations into the Bakans, J2b-L283 samples will pop up in the Western Pontic steppe around modern day Moldova.

    Also, Aspurg/Oroku Saki, since I have a feeling this "1337" is one of your puppet accounts, next time perhaps try to hide your anime weeabo affinities by not choosing a Japanese flag in your bio. And for the sake of the ancient gods choose some other haplogroup for your bio

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    My post from 1 year ago. Nothing wow as a post, just that even amateurs can scrap together few sk- words in Albanian, Greek, and Latin and dismiss the idiotic conclusions of Matzinger.
    Of course his conclusions are idiotic, I already pointed this out as have many people way before you. This is something that is known. You people who seem to think we are the 'Albanoi' seem to suggest they mainly inhabited the area between Drin and Shkumbin since the Iron Age ? Shkodra, Lezha and many of these areas do not even fall under that area. Those areas became Latin speaking yet they follow Albanian sound changes: Shkodra, Durres, Drisht, Ulqin, Lezha, Nish, Shtip, Shkup, Shar, Vushtrri, Lipjan. Not all but some of these parts of Albania that did not fall within the area of this tribe. But they found inscriptions outside that area. Coastal areas of Albania were mostly Latin speaking. There is the entire Roman period.
    There were other tribes too.

    Where is even the evidence that this tribe only lived between Shkumbin and Drin or that it is the main ancestor ? How do you explain the whole Jirecek line ? More Latin influence than Greek ? Seems to be completely nonsense considering there has been also even a Vlach contribution into the gene pool.

    So you're telling me we did not mix with other tribes until one day popped up the Slavs and the Ottoman period and we just magically appeared ? This is the theory that you people who support this 'Albanoi' theory seem to hold. For example the guy who quoted me suggests that the Illyrians in Albania were something totally different from ex-Yugoslavia etc. when such borders were not even known, and tribes that came to inhabit both areas. The guy has some incredibly weird theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    What has us not being Albanoi anything to do with not being Illyrian ? Where did I say we are not part Albanoi or that they did not contribute ? Most of the western Balkans was inhabited by Illyrian tribes. Where did all those tribes and people in Albania or other areas go ? What are you even on about ? There is also the entire Roman period. Where is the evidence that we came only from this tribe or the Albanian language in general ? Seems completely nonsense to me, especially when you take into consideration the entire Roman period. How could one single tribe of contributed throughout the Roman and Iron Age period and since their migration into the Balkans ? Many of these tribes branched off from each other.

    Illyrians were possibly from the Maykop Culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture where they found J2b2-L283 and R1b-L23. They were migrants from the Caucasus together with Thracians that settled the Balkans and inhabited also the Hallstatt. Do you really think people have always had an eternal presence in one single area ? You should look more into human migrations. Nothing suggests some kind of eternal presence even in the Balkans.

    For example Barleti mentions Albanians came from Colchis and settled Macedonia.
    Maybe do more than 10 minutes of research and you'll find out how.

    Albanoi were mentioned in 150 AD. Geg/Tosk split precedes Slavic migration. Likely happened before 500 AD around Shkumbin river. That means Albanian had been spoken in that region since the days of the Albanoi.

    Read Plausari's book from 2020. He finds countless sources that fill the supposed "gap", which was just a case of historians being too lazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Of course his conclusions are idiotic, I already pointed this out as have many people way before you. This is something that is known. You people who seem to think we are the 'Albanoi' seem to suggest they mainly inhabited the area between Drin and Shkumbin since the Iron Age ? Shkodra, Lezha and many of these areas do not even fall under that area. Those areas became Latin speaking yet they follow Albanian sound changes: Shkodra, Durres, Drisht, Ulqin, Lezha, Nish, Shtip, Shkup, Shar, Vushtrri, Lipjan. Not all but some of these parts of Albania that did not fall within the area of this tribe. But they found inscriptions outside that area. Coastal areas of Albania were mostly Latin speaking. There is the entire Roman period.
    There were other tribes too.

    Where is even the evidence that this tribe only lived between Shkumbin and Drin or that it is the main ancestor ? How do you explain the whole Jirecek line ? More Latin influence than Greek ? Seems to be completely nonsense considering there has been also even a Vlach contribution into the gene pool.

    So you're telling me we did not mix with other tribes until one day popped up the Slavs and the Ottoman period and we just magically appeared ? This is the theory that you people who support this 'Albanoi' theory seem to hold. For example the guy who quoted me suggests that the Illyrians in Albania were something totally different from ex-Yugoslavia etc. when such borders were not even known, and tribes that came to inhabit both areas. The guy has some incredibly weird theories.
    Jirecek Line is useless in determining anything about Albanians, since Albanian was already heavily Latinized before it took effect.

    "while the area was under pre-Byzantine Roman rule, "even in Greek areas... Latin was the dominant language in inscriptions recording public works, on milestones, and in the army"."

    Albanians were under the Byzantine Empire until 1453. How many Greek loanwords are there in Albanian today? Fact of the matter is, Greeks never took over Albanians. Romans did. That's why our language is 2/3 Latin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Matzingers position is that the proto-Albanians first moved to north albanian regions, and that some historical process resulted in them adopting the ethnonym Albanoi.
    We see Albanians calling themselves and being called epirotes based on epirus nova in middle ages, so its not far fetched that if they lived in the region of arbanon they might adopt it as an ethnonym.
    Dude got fleeced by Matzinger into spending 300 dollars on a useless book and now can't go back because of sunk cost fallacy

    Maybe just cut your losses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    "Their proof" is I quoted 2 linguists saying the same thing

    Istvan Schutz "The name of the Dalmatian/Delmata Illyrian tribe, Dalmatia/Delmatia area, the Illyrian city Delminium/Dalmion, and the name of the present-day Delvinë and Delvinaqi geographical units are related to the Albanian words dele (plural delme) 'sheep', delmer 'shepherd'. Strabo adds the epithet "...πεδιον μελωβοτον..." to the name of the Illyrian city Delmion, meaning "sheep-feeding plain"."

    "
    Linguist Xhelal Ylli translates Delvinë as "white sheep"."
    So now you admit a relation to other Illyrian tribes ? First you argued tribes outside Albania were supposedly not Illyrian despite there seems to be a connection even to Messapian, Dalmatian, Dardanian etc. We also have the ''Dardha'' tribe for example. Seems even a connection to the Hallstatt and Maykop.

    'Arber', 'Arberia' etc comes from the name Albanoi, Arbanon etc. These names were used in the past, then Epirotarium came to be used or 'Epirote' , modern Albania was part of Roman Epirus and medieval Albanians referred to themselves as 'Epirote' , although it was never really inhabited by the actual Epirote tribe which was more South of the Shkumbin. It's kinda like how modern Northern Macedonia became named 'Macedonia' by the Romans. Interesting enough. I wonder if these names have historical connection which the Romans regarded ? Some say for example Roman Epirus in Albania had Greek influence at one point rather than Latin.

    Origin of Albanians is in the Maykop culture. Barleti writes Albanians came from Colchis.

    Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania. In a digression early in the work he elucidates his view upon the history of the nation based on the Roman historiographer Pompeius Trogus and his own contemporary, Pope Pius. Thus, the Albanians originally lived in Colchis on the Black Sea, from where they brought their language. They first emigrated to the Albanian hills near Rome. When Hercules as one of his twelve tasks had killed Geryones and was driving the latter’s cattle from Spain through Italy, he stayed for a time in the Albanian hills. From there the Albanians followed him, and they now live in Macedonia and the Peloponnese.
    http://scanderbeg.dk/Barleti-Scanderbeg.htm

    Colchis was where Maykop was located and where J2b2-L283 was found. We came from Caucasus. All humans in Europe came from Caucasus. Even Serboi tribe are Caucasus.

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    The evidence is in fact very mixed; some of the Albanian forms (of both urban and rural names) suggest transmission via Slav, but others -including the towns of Shkodra, Drisht, Lezha, Shkup (Skopje) and perhaps Shtip (Stip, south-east of Skopje) - follow the pattern of continuous Albanian development from the Latin. [48] (One common objection to this argument, claiming that 'sc-' in Latin should have turned into 'h-', not 'shk-' in Albanian, rests on a chronological error, and can be disregarded.) [49] There are also some fairly convincing derivations of Slav names for rivers in northern Albania - particularly the Bojana (Alb.: Buena) and the Drim (Alb.: Drin) - which suggest that the Slavs must have acquired their names from the Albanian forms. [50]
    Epirote were possibly a related tribe as were the Ancient Macedonians, Dardanians, Taulantii etc other tribes too within Albania and around Albania. During Roman period we receieved more Latin influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Matzingers position is that the proto-Albanians first moved to north albanian regions, and that some historical process resulted in them adopting the ethnonym Albanoi.
    We see Albanians calling themselves and being called epirotes based on epirus nova in middle ages, so its not far fetched that if they lived in the region of arbanon they might adopt it as an ethnonym.
    Absolutely not true! You and your Matziger are liars.
    1705-1715
    Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz:
    Correspondence on the Albanian Language


    (Hanover, 28 December 1711)
    … The modern European alphabets are derived from Latin, with the exception of the two Slavic ones: Cyrillic and so-called Glagolitic. Some authors later attributed these to Saint Jerome who was of Illyrian origin, but falsely so, as if the ancient Illyrian language were some sort of Slavic. But the Slavs were late to arrive in Illyria, not before the age of Justinian. The ancient Illyrians were of Celtic origin. They used a language closely related to Germanic and Gaulish. It is evident that relics of this are preserved in the modern language, in particular in that of the Epirots, of which I have seen specimens published. Nowadays they generally call the Slavic language Illyrian because the Slavs settled in Illyria. …


    (Vienna, 13 January 1714)


    II. …One day in Berlin you gave me a book in the language of the Epirots, printed in Rome by the Propaganda Fide. I believe it had the Lord's Prayer in that language and I took it out. But I cannot easily find it in my letters. Would you be so kind, Sir, as to send it to me once more?


    (Hanover, 24 March 1715)
    [Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, Opera Philologica (Hildesheim: Georg Olms, 1989). Translated from the French by Robert Elsie.]
    http://www.albanianhistory.net/1705_Leibniz/index.html


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    Dardanians were most likely an Albanoid-like tribe like many other Illyrians in the vicinity of the Albanoi. I do believe the Albanoi played a role in the origin of our people, or the name came from there, my point is they seem to of lived in other areas and mingled with other tribes and revolted against the Romans such as the inscription found in Skopje and mention of them in Southern Albania. There is mention of 'Albanos' in Macedonia. My point is other people contributed too and picked up the name.

    Dardha = Dardania. An Albanian word. These were all related tribes. In the south they received more Greek influence. Epirote were probably Greek like Macedonians but mingled with Illyrians and Thracians.

    Shkup, Shtip, Shkodra, Lezha, Durres, Vushtrri, Shar etc follow the pattern of continuous Albanian development from the Latin , Albanian changes. It is hilarious how these Balkan Slavs supposedly claim we started coming to their land when our people have been living in the Balkans for thousands of years and quarreled with other tribes. It seems completely rubbish.

    Illyrian names and Albanian words than there are in the case of Thracian (though there are some of both, and some names were common to the two ancient languages). Most of these relate to place-names in the area of central and northern Albania, such as the river Mat (Alb.: mat, river-bank) or the town of Ulqin or Ulcinium (Alb.: ujk or ulk, wolf), or indeed the early name for the Kosovo area, 'Dardania' (Alb.: dardhe, pear)
    By the mid-seventh century, Serbs (or Serb-led Slavs) were penetrating from the coastal lands of Montenegro into northern Albania. Major ports and towns such as Durres and Shkodra held out against them, but much of the countryside was Slavicized, and some Slav settlers moved up the valleys into the Malesi. By the ninth century, Slav-speaking people were an important element of the population in much of northern Albania, excluding the towns and the higher mountainous areas (especially the mountains in the eastern part of the Malesi, towards Kosovo). [8] Slav-speaking people lived in the lowlands of this area, gradually becoming a major component of the urban population too, until the end of the Middle Ages. [9]
    Only in the ninth century do we see the expansion of a strong Slav (or quasi-Slav) power into this region. Under a series of ambitious rulers, the Bulgarians - a Slav population which absorbed, linguistically and culturally, its ruling elite of Turkic Bulgars - pushed westwards across modern Macedonia and eastern Serbia, until by the 850s they had taken over Kosovo and were pressing on the borders of Rascia. Soon afterwards they took the western Macedonian town of Ohrid; having recently converted to Christianity, the Bulgar rulers helped to set up a bishopric in Ohrid, which thus became an important centre of Slav culture for the whole region. And at the same time the Bulgarians were pushing on into southern and central Albania, which became thoroughly settled by Bulgarian Slavs during the course of the following century.
    Not a single land these people didn't invade and occupy.

    What about Romanian, Aromanian etc ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Colchis was where Maykop was located and where J2b2-L283 was found. We came from Caucasus. All humans in Europe came from Caucasus. Even Serboi tribe are Caucasus.
    Thanks for verifying that you are a troll account with a false bio info.

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    Some of those I quoted is from Noel Malcolm, he never really said that Albanians 100% are from Dardanians. He seems to regard the Romanian/Vlach language from there. He said it's just a theory and that it does not matter. I actually agree but to these delusional Balkan Slavs all these things matter be it in Macedonia, Montenegro, Kosova, Nish, Sandzak, Epirus or any area where Illyrians lived, we supposedly have to prove some ''continuity'' In their minds they have constructed modern Balkan conflicts as ancient and project modern ethno-nationalism into the past. ''Oh we were here first, they started coming to our lands'' and trying to prove some Balkan pre-Slavic autochtonity When in reality all humans have migrated. That's why you see so many of them do DNA tests, extremely complexed and manipulative people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Some of those I quoted is from Noel Malcolm, he never really said that Albanians 100% are from Dardanians. He seems to regard the Romanian/Vlach language from there. He said it's just a theory and that it does not matter. I actually agree but to these delusional Balkan Slavs all these things matter be it in Macedonia, Montenegro, Kosova, Nish, Sandzak, Epirus or any area where Illyrians lived, we supposedly have to prove some ''continuity'' In their minds they have constructed modern Balkan conflicts as ancient and project modern ethno-nationalism into the past. ''Oh we were here first, they started coming to our lands'' and trying to prove some Balkan pre-Slavic autochtonity When in reality all humans have migrated. That's why you see so many of them do DNA tests, extremely complexed and manipulative people.
    They claim all the Ancient Balkans as theirs when they literally speak a Slavic language , that says a lot, as if it matters how many people were assimilated or not. Completely irrelevant. But when people became Muslims during Ottoman rule they were turned later during their fairytale invention of nationalism in the 19th century into ''traitors'' , every Muslim was automatically a Turk. They construct their own fake history.

    Slavs = Good, Ottomans and Turks = bad in their minds.

    Just extremely butthurt people. That's why you seem them either claim we are Dacians or some Thracians or they claim we lived in some small area of ''Illyria'' , as if it supposedly matters. Or some recent immigrants from Sicily or Caucasus.
    Their expansion into these areas was literally an invasion.

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    Bulgarian text mentioning Albanian language in eartly 11th century apparently:

    Little is known about the Albanian people prior to the 11th century, though a text compiled around the beginning of the 11th century in the Bulgarian language contains a possible reference to them.[104] It is preserved in a manuscript written in the Serbo-Croatian Language traced back to the 17th century but published in the 20th century by Radoslav Grujic. It is a fragment of a once longer text that endeavours to explain the origins of peoples and languages in a question-and-answer form similar to a catechism.
    The fragmented manuscript differentiated the world into 72 languages and three religious categories including Christians, half-believers and non-believers. Grujic dated it to the early 11th century and, if this and the identification of the Arbanasi as Albanians are correct, it would be the earliest written document referring to the Balkan Albanians as a people or language group.[104]
    It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian (Georgian). There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi and Germans.

    Interesting it does not mention Serbian language,, nor ''Macedonian'' (Because they are Bulgarians after all) ... No mention of Vlachs though Vlachs were around there for sure as they served under the Bulgarian Empire.

    The Bulgarian Empire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Empire


    It is interesting how the Serbs claim they supposedly dominated these lands since 600 AD. Not a single historical evidence. In one Serbian book I read, which was a response to Noel Malcolm's book, they ''argue'' the same thing and argue Albanians are an Asian race apparently arrived from Caucasus in the 11th century. Yet no compelling evidence.

    They claim Lipjan in Kosovo is a Serbian word when it is actually from Lypenion mentioned before Serbs, same with Prizren . etc

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    It generally baffles me how a troll account is able to generate and make this much posts with off topic non sense in a set of two days.

    This is a linguistic thread and does not have anything to do with your pseudo scientific Caucasus non sense fantasy or some silly Serbian propagandistic writings you like to quote so often.

    You've made your non sense points, now move on.

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    I'm actually starting to believe in this whole Dardanian theory tbh or that they played a role together with the Albanoi. I can't bother to explain right now. Dardanians must of had EV-13.

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    ''Interesting it does not mention Serbian language,, nor ''Macedonian'' (Because they are Bulgarians after all) ... No mention of Vlachs though Vlachs were around there for sure as they served under the Bulgarian Empire.''


    Best to learn some basics on the region instead of speaking falsehoods. Bulgaria was inhabited by Vlachs & Turkic groups before it got re-culturated from Macedonia in the 11th century. It is modern Bulgarians who are very confused about their origins, not Macedonians.

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    IMO, there's no point in speculating about 'Dardanians', or "Bessi'. If one wants to understand the genesis of proto-Albanians, then you need to decipher what was happening in the 7th-11th centuries AD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinaric Superman View Post
    IMO, there's no point in speculating about 'Dardanians', or "Bessi'. If one wants to understand the genesis of proto-Albanians, then you need to decipher what was happening in the 7th-11th centuries AD
    Bessi were Greek influenced in their language and were taught Christianity in their own language but they are an interesting tribe but doubt they were ancestor of Albanians as they were mentioned in 900 AD in Bulgaria , we don't know much what happened in those times anyway,

    I am not anti-Macedonia nor do I dream of any nationalist seccessions and Bulgaria has no claim to Macedonia

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    It's also not correct to say you are ''Bulgarians'' but I was speaking more about the Macedonian-Bulgarian language.

    Kosovo was to remain under Bulgarian or Macedonian rulers until 1014-18, when the army of the Macedonian-based Tsar Samuel died, his empire broke up, and Byzantine power was fully re-established by a strong and decisive Emperor, Basil 'the Bulgar-killer'. For nearly two centuries after that, Kosovo would stay under Byzantine rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    Here some village names mentioned in the previous posts and their variation in some Ottoman documents:

    Bukorovats aka Buhova
    Bukurovce aka Dolna Bukorofcha
    Bilishte aka Bihlishte
    Dreatin is a new village, settled by inhabitants from Nedelishte
    Businche;Bushindzhe;Boshentsi;Bisintsi (yep, these all four variants for the same place)
    Arzan was some bey ciftlik, no mention of the origins of the landlord or the workforce
    "Zabel" means also "branishte" , "little forest" (in an Ottoman document found оnce also as Zhabel /Жабел)
    Gintsi , aka Gintcha in some docs.



    Here is a list of Pirot area villages ,post y.1878. First column the Serbisized (per Milicevic, "Kralevina Srbija") version of the villages, and in the fourth column- the original ones.


    http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/index.htm


    http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/sh_t1.jpg
    http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/sh_t2.jpg
    http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/sh_t3.jpg
    http://www.promacedonia.org/sh/sh_t4.jpg


    Burel , versions of origin - "burya" (storm); "bure" (barrel)..or from the Bulgar "bur" - limestone (could not find any proof of this). List of all villages of the Burel Valley :


    https://books.google.com/books/conte...eZJi3nA&w=1025


    And some local lore that existed on both sides of the border and also in Sofia region:
    "MuzhEte sto smo, Rusi smo, a zhenEte ni su latInke" (We, the men ,are from Rus' , and our women are Latin"...the stressed vowels in caps).
    https://books.google.com/books/conte...m0rx5MA&w=1025

    As for Ruy , some think it comes from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%B...#Ancient_Greek
    ...or Latin "Rhus".
    I don't speak any Slavic languages. I'll pass on some of the explanations, because they seem forced. These toponyms don't appear elsewhere in the Slavic speaking world, forcing a Slavic explanation is not a reasonable approach.

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