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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Papazoglu suggested that unique variations of Illyrian and Thracian names that only appeared in Dardanian regions as well as unique non-Illyrian and non-Thracian names that showed up in the Dardanian regions suggested a third non-Illyrian, non-Thracian language substrate.



    Categorizing names when theres barely any linguistic evidence on the aforementioned languages sounds like a big pile of garbage to me.

    They have a list of 100% of the exclusive Illyrian and Thracian names? And few of these Dardanian names do not show up in their exclusive dictionary?

    Or, let me guess, they study the names based on the characteristics and structure of the language? Whose characteristics are they studying in this case, those of 2 mysterious and dead languages?

    Studying Illyrian and Thracian and writing books about them at this point reminds of me ex-Yugoslavs acting as polyglots by putting in their CVs - Fluent in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin, Macedonian*, Slovenian*, and English. Same with these linguist nobodies trying to make a name studying inexistent languages and coming to exaggerated conclusions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Same with these linguist nobodies trying to make a name studying inexistent languages and coming to exaggerated conclusions.
    Scodra, Scerdilaidis, Scerviaidus, etc, are all illyrian names of people or towns that obviously have /sk/ cluster.

    Albanian obviously had its /sk/ cluster become /h/ as in hedh, hardhucë, hudhër etc, so we know that the /sk/ was lost long long ago in early-proto-Albanian history.

    I wonder what your contribution to Albanian science has been to call these these linguists nobodies?

    Matzinger & Shumacher have published thousands of pages of scientific content on the Albanian language, they meticulously studied all the Old Albanian texts and made etymological dictionaries for them, etc.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    The problem is that Albanian has very early Latin loanwords from the 2nd century BC and it took like 200 more years until the Romans conquered the Dardanians.
    This isn't accurate. Albanian doesn't have latin loans that date to before the Latin invasion of the balkans.

    Secondly, Albanian has few latin loans from the earliest period, and most from the middle period, which is later.

    Thirdly, Dardanians were conquered more or less the same time as the rest of the balkans (167 BC).

    Here you have Dardanians in 167 BC requesting the return of Paeonia to their borders from the Romans. I found this quote very interesting for many reasons, mainly why they asked for Paeonia, and not Scodra, etc. Keep in mind, Shtip fell within Paeonia.




    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    In addition, I think it was you yourself who posted the finding of Albanoid words in 7th century BC Laconian dialect of Doric. I don�t assume you believe that the Dardanians influenced the Dorians too who were said to have lived around Epirus and Macedonia.
    Firstly, Dardanians were neighbours with the Macedonians, the earliest mention we have with Dardanians come from constantly being on the border with them and invading macedonians etc. They also invaded epirus under Bardylis, so epirus was not out of reach of the dardanians.

    Secondly, since we know their were neither dardanians nor illyrians in laconia, then these loans must have happened at an earlier stage of doric i.e. before they were in laconia, or were related to trade from the north or something. This argument is not in favour of illyrians anymore than dardanians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Thirdly, Albanians even self identified as Epirotes and even Macedonians (stemming from the regions created by the Romans) and coincidentally the highest concentration of Albanian toponyms is in North Albania.
    Albanians defined as such because this was the medieval renaissance culture and antiquarian tendencies of byzantine administrators.

    The earliest Albanian to speak for our origins is Marin Barleti, who wrote that we came to the Balkans with Hercules from Alba longa (mt Alban). Alba longa was founded by Aeneas' son Ascanius. Aeneas was leader of the Dardanoi in myth. But Marin Barleti also called us Epirotes, because we lived in Epirus Nova, the administrative region.

    He called Croatians Illyrians, Bulgarians Triballians, and in the medieval period this was common for Croatians to be known as Illyrians, Bulgarians or Serbians as Triballians, etc. It was a form of Larping to be honest.

    So this cannot be used as a good argument unless you also wanna argue Croatians are Illyrians, etc.

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    and coincidentally the highest concentration of Albanian toponyms is in North Albania.
    Yes, but this toponymy at the earliest confirmed so far begins around ~300's - 400's AD. Albania and North Albania obviously is the epicentre of the Proto-Albanian -> Albanian transformation, but this is not an argument for where the proto-Albanian urheimat was.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    It looks to me that Albania proper had at least 2-3 Albanoid �languages� that merged with each other in time, also receiving influences from the direction of Kosovo. But no way in hell Kosovo/Dardania Albanian dialect could give birth to the unique forms of Albania proper. It�s too different.
    The Albanian dialects are not that diverse considering the large territory they are spread out across. This suggests a relatively recent common expansion rather than a long time of in situ development. Tosk and Gegë are not too different from a macro scale and must have been one language in the early first half of the first millenium AD.

    If proto-Albanian comes from Dardanian regions (shtip-sharr-nish triangle) then this wouldn't make Albanian a dialect that came from the modern Kosovo dialect. It would make Tosk, Northwest Gegë, Northeast Gegë, etc all brother dialects of the same Dardanian parent that spread west and expanded in Albania.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    But Matzinger wouldn�t know this cause he�s a foreigner after all. You need to be a local to be able to go a step further and fairly analyze the situation.
    This is like saying a surgeon doesn't know how to perform surgery on my body better than me. If i had to perform surgery on my organs, I would have no clue what to do. Matzinger is a specialist of the Albanian language and knows a lot about it, so his arguments have to be taken seriously. If you don't agree with them, at least provide an argument and not just try to evade by saying he is a foreigner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Yes, but this toponymy at the earliest confirmed so far begins around ~300's - 400's AD. Albania and North Albania obviously is the epicentre of the Proto-Albanian -> Albanian transformation, but this is not an argument for where the proto-Albanian urheimat was.




    The Albanian dialects are not that diverse considering the large territory they are spread out across. This suggests a relatively recent common expansion rather than a long time of in situ development. Tosk and Gegë are not too different from a macro scale and must have been one language in the early first half of the first millenium AD.

    If proto-Albanian comes from Dardanian regions (shtip-sharr-nish triangle) then this wouldn't make Albanian a dialect that came from the modern Kosovo dialect. It would make Tosk, Northwest Gegë, Northeast Gegë, etc all brother dialects of the same Dardanian parent that spread west and expanded in Albania.



    This is like saying a surgeon doesn't know how to perform surgery on my body better than me. If i had to perform surgery on my organs, I would have no clue what to do. Matzinger is a specialist of the Albanian language and knows a lot about it, so his arguments have to be taken seriously. If you don't agree with them, at least provide an argument and not just try to evade by saying he is a foreigner.
    Clearly the language came out of Dardania and paeonian area ........this is also due to the fact that Cassander ( king of Macedonia ) destroyed forever the Taulantii tribe ( never to be seen or heard again in history ) of North albania in 314 BC .........but he first took the area of central and south albania ( apollonia and Butrint ) before taking Durres ........he finally had access to the Aegean and Adriatic seas ...........he quickly moved troops and families from Pella, Thessally and souther Paeonian lands to these areas of Albania.

    The macedonians never had any issues in albania until the roman took durres at the start of the hannibal wars ( as macedonia was an ally of hannibal ) the first roman-macedonia war of 197BC was the beginning of roman annexation of albanian lands from the macedonian empire

    So 4 to 6 generations of macedonian, thessalian and Paeonian people living in coastal albania before any "roman " or Italic families moving there
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    @Johane Derite
    You are joking, right? Early Latin influence in Albanian started exactly in the 2nd century BC. Youre the main contributor here and you dont know this? You even call it incorrect without double checking?

    It seems quite probable that the Dardani actually lost independence in 28 BC thus, the final occupation of Dardania by Rome has been connected with the beginnings of Augustus' rule in 6 AD, when they were finally conquered by Rome.

    Not only we have evidence that an Albanoid language was spoken in Albania proper in the 2nd century BC, but it was even probably spoken in the major coastal cities or Dyrrachium, Apollonia, and other minor South Illyrian cities which were allies of Rome and came to contact with Latin the earliest, leading to modern Albanian inheriting those influences.

    Dardanians were not neighbouring Macedonia at all, they had Paeonians, Pierians, Thracians, etc. in between. So no, Albanoid influence in early Doric did not come from the Dardanians but the Illyrians in Epirus and Macedonia. Arnisa, a later Macedonian city was originally a Taulantian one. Theres Illyrian influence and toponymy as South as Aetolia (even Northern Boiotia I think).

    Now it seems youre not even familiar with Albanian. Are you a diaspora Albanian? Kosovo Albanian is completely unrelated to 90% of the dialects of Albania proper.

    Kosovo Albanian is alien to us, with mysterious features such as ka shkoj instead of duke/tuke/tuhe/tue/tuj shkuam/shkuar.

    Albanian from Montenegro down to South Epirus had the verb isht (is in Eng) while Kosovo has the standard osht. Albanians have asht, ansht, , sht, esht, even ia (Boiotia Arvanites).

    Albanian for I have been could be kam qen, kom qon, kam qan, kam ken, jam kjen, jam ken, jam kn, kam qn, whereas Kosovo Albanian is the typical unique example of no variety with jom kon, thats it.

    The words for now are tash, tesh, tashi, shtehe, ime, tani, nani, taninaj, nashi. Kosovo has just tash.

    Albanian also received an influence of migrants from the area around Dalmatia, which shaped the mountain dialects of North West Albania/Montenegro, clearly different from the local lowland and coastal Albanian of the same region even today. Or did the Dardanians migrate to Montenegro, Bosnia, and later even to Lika (Croatia) together with Vlachs?

    Gheg and Tosk are less mutually intelligible than Italian and Neapolitan, which are considered 2 different languages (not dialects), thus we can also categorize them as 2 or even 3 or 4 different related languages if we follow the Italian and Spanish standards (Castellano, Catalan). And here you are talking about all the Albanian dialects coming from Dardanian. You clearly dont speak fluent Albanian and are not familiar at all with Albanian dialects (not TV Standard language).

    That Gheg vs Tosk division in itself is stupid, cause within Tosk theres real Tosk, Lab, Cham, and Arbereshe (derived from Lab and Cham not Tosk).

    Similarly, Gheg was first the name of the modern Southern Gheg tribes, the ones North of Drin identifying as Malsor/Malcor, with clearly different dialects, as well as a West vs East different. West says tuj shkua/shkue/shku and East used the alien ka shkoj. They also influenced each other in the contact area.

    It seems like youre indirectly proposing that Dardanians brought the Albanoid language to South Illyria during the Roman period (?). Why did the Romans allow such a movement? Why they never recorded it? Or whatever, lets just throw theories around?

    As for Matzinger, hes the surgeon operating ghosts in the air. I dont know what the hell is he studying in Illyrian and Thracian. Scodra is non-Illyrian he says. Then what is it, Brygian? Veneto-Liburnian? The dude should just stick to properly studying Albanian and forget about his Illyrian fantasies.

    The Dalmatian speakers of the city called Shkodra as Skudra, similar to how the Persians called the Thracians. But grandpa Matzinger already said Albanian isnt related to Thracian, so he can start focusing on the Brygians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    @Johane Derite
    You are joking, right? Early Latin influence in Albanian started exactly in the 2nd century BC. You�re the main contributor here and you don�t know this? You even call it incorrect without double checking?

    It seems quite probable that the Dardani actually lost independence in 28 BC thus, the final occupation of Dardania by Rome has been connected with the beginnings of Augustus' rule in 6 AD, when they were finally conquered by Rome.

    Not only we have evidence that an �Albanoid� language was spoken in Albania proper in the 2nd century BC, but it was even probably spoken in the major coastal cities or Dyrrachium, Apollonia, and other minor South Illyrian cities which were allies of Rome and came to contact with Latin the earliest, leading to modern Albanian inheriting those influences.

    Dardanians were not neighbouring Macedonia at all, they had Paeonians, Pierians, Thracians, etc. in between. So no, Albanoid influence in early Doric did not come from the Dardanians but the Illyrians in Epirus and Macedonia. Arnisa, a later Macedonian city was originally a Taulantian one. There�s Illyrian influence and toponymy as South as Aetolia (even Northern Boiotia I think).

    Now it seems you�re not even familiar with Albanian. Are you a diaspora Albanian? Kosovo Albanian is completely unrelated to 90% of the dialects of Albania proper.

    Kosovo Albanian is �alien� to us, with mysterious features such as �ka shkoj� instead of �duke/tuke/tuhe/tue/tuj shkuam/shkuar�.

    Albanian from Montenegro down to South Epirus had the verb �isht� (is in Eng) while Kosovo has the standard �osht�. Albanians have asht, ansht, �, �sht�, esht, even ia (Boiotia Arvanites).

    Albanian for �I have been� could be kam qen, kom qon, kam qan, kam ken, jam kjen, jam ken, jam k�n, kam q�n, whereas Kosovo Albanian is the typical unique example of no variety with jom kon, that�s it.

    The words for �now� are tash, tesh, tashi, shtehe, ime, tani, nani, taninaj, nashi. Kosovo has just tash.

    Albanian also received an influence of migrants from the area around Dalmatia, which shaped the mountain dialects of North West Albania/Montenegro, clearly different from the local lowland and coastal Albanian of the same region even today. Or did the Dardanians migrate to Montenegro, Bosnia, and later even to Lika (Croatia) together with Vlachs?

    Gheg and Tosk are less mutually intelligible than Italian and Neapolitan, which are considered 2 different languages (not dialects), thus we can also categorize them as 2 or even 3 or 4 different related languages if we follow the Italian and Spanish standards (Castellano, Catalan). And here you are talking about all the Albanian dialects coming from Dardanian. You clearly don�t speak fluent Albanian and are not familiar at all with Albanian dialects (not TV Standard language).

    That Gheg vs Tosk division in itself is stupid, cause within Tosk there�s real Tosk, Lab, Cham, and Arbereshe (derived from Lab and Cham not Tosk).

    Similarly, Gheg was first the name of the modern Southern Gheg tribes, the ones North of Drin identifying as Malsor/Malcor, with clearly different dialects, as well as a West vs East different. West says tuj shkua/shkue/shku and East used the alien ka shkoj. They also influenced each other in the contact area.

    It seems like you�re indirectly proposing that Dardanians brought the Albanoid language to South Illyria during the Roman period (?). Why did the Romans allow such a movement? Why they never recorded it? Or whatever, let�s just throw theories around?

    As for Matzinger, he�s the surgeon operating ghosts in the air. I don�t know what the hell is he studying in Illyrian and Thracian. Scodra is non-Illyrian he says. Then what is it, Brygian? Veneto-Liburnian? The dude should just stick to properly studying Albanian and forget about his Illyrian fantasies.

    The Dalmatian speakers of the city called Shkodra as Skudra, similar to how the Persians called the Thracians. But grandpa Matzinger already said Albanian isn�t related to Thracian, so he can start focusing on the Brygians.
    You need to understand that the macedonians already moved into modern Albania from 314BC and that the Epirotes where not Illyrians , but their own identity and a vassal of the Macedonians
    Macedonians and Illyrians always fought each other , there is a mutual hate for each other...........there is no way epirotes are illyrians

    Paeonia sat between the the macedonians and the dardanians ................while Paeonia was also a vassal of Macedoania, the dardanians where not

    Skudra had no dalmatians , they had the daorsi tribe from modern Bosnia , a tribe that was hated by the dalmatians, a tribe they could not conquer ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Daorson was their capital.....now listed with Unesco world heritage site

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    @Johane Derite
    You are joking, right? Early Latin influence in Albanian started exactly in the 2nd century BC. You�re the main contributor here and you don�t know this? You even call it incorrect without double checking?

    It seems quite probable that the Dardani actually lost independence in 28 BC thus, the final occupation of Dardania by Rome has been connected with the beginnings of Augustus' rule in 6 AD, when they were finally conquered by Rome.

    Not only we have evidence that an �Albanoid� language was spoken in Albania proper in the 2nd century BC, but it was even probably spoken in the major coastal cities or Dyrrachium, Apollonia, and other minor South Illyrian cities which were allies of Rome and came to contact with Latin the earliest, leading to modern Albanian inheriting those influences.

    Dardanians were not neighbouring Macedonia at all, they had Paeonians, Pierians, Thracians, etc. in between. So no, Albanoid influence in early Doric did not come from the Dardanians but the Illyrians in Epirus and Macedonia. Arnisa, a later Macedonian city was originally a Taulantian one. There�s Illyrian influence and toponymy as South as Aetolia (even Northern Boiotia I think).

    Now it seems you�re not even familiar with Albanian. Are you a diaspora Albanian? Kosovo Albanian is completely unrelated to 90% of the dialects of Albania proper.

    Kosovo Albanian is �alien� to us, with mysterious features such as �ka shkoj� instead of �duke/tuke/tuhe/tue/tuj shkuam/shkuar�.

    Albanian from Montenegro down to South Epirus had the verb �isht� (is in Eng) while Kosovo has the standard �osht�. Albanians have asht, ansht, �, �sht�, esht, even ia (Boiotia Arvanites).

    Albanian for �I have been� could be kam qen, kom qon, kam qan, kam ken, jam kjen, jam ken, jam k�n, kam q�n, whereas Kosovo Albanian is the typical unique example of no variety with jom kon, that�s it.

    The words for �now� are tash, tesh, tashi, shtehe, ime, tani, nani, taninaj, nashi. Kosovo has just tash.

    Albanian also received an influence of migrants from the area around Dalmatia, which shaped the mountain dialects of North West Albania/Montenegro, clearly different from the local lowland and coastal Albanian of the same region even today. Or did the Dardanians migrate to Montenegro, Bosnia, and later even to Lika (Croatia) together with Vlachs?

    Gheg and Tosk are less mutually intelligible than Italian and Neapolitan, which are considered 2 different languages (not dialects), thus we can also categorize them as 2 or even 3 or 4 different related languages if we follow the Italian and Spanish standards (Castellano, Catalan). And here you are talking about all the Albanian dialects coming from Dardanian. You clearly don�t speak fluent Albanian and are not familiar at all with Albanian dialects (not TV Standard language).

    That Gheg vs Tosk division in itself is stupid, cause within Tosk there�s real Tosk, Lab, Cham, and Arbereshe (derived from Lab and Cham not Tosk).

    Similarly, Gheg was first the name of the modern Southern Gheg tribes, the ones North of Drin identifying as Malsor/Malcor, with clearly different dialects, as well as a West vs East different. West says tuj shkua/shkue/shku and East used the alien ka shkoj. They also influenced each other in the contact area.

    It seems like you�re indirectly proposing that Dardanians brought the Albanoid language to South Illyria during the Roman period (?). Why did the Romans allow such a movement? Why they never recorded it? Or whatever, let�s just throw theories around?

    As for Matzinger, he�s the surgeon operating ghosts in the air. I don�t know what the hell is he studying in Illyrian and Thracian. Scodra is non-Illyrian he says. Then what is it, Brygian? Veneto-Liburnian? The dude should just stick to properly studying Albanian and forget about his Illyrian fantasies.

    The Dalmatian speakers of the city called Shkodra as Skudra, similar to how the Persians called the Thracians. But grandpa Matzinger already said Albanian isn�t related to Thracian, so he can start focusing on the Brygians.
    Matzinger never said Scodra is non-Illyrian, he said it cannot be Albanian, which is a legitimate argument. So if scodra is to be Illyrian then it cannot be Albanian.

    This is the third time that you are misunderstanding a basic one sentence argument. Likewise the rest of your post is totally filled with misunderstandings of yours that lead you to become confused and emotional. Also you don't seem to know anything about Northeast Gheg, which begins in Puka, Albania and extends into Kosova. Stop embarrassing yourself and try learn something instead of being a kneejerk reactionary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    @Johane Derite
    You are joking, right? Early Latin influence in Albanian started exactly in the 2nd century BC. You�re the main contributor here and you don�t know this? You even call it incorrect without double checking?

    It seems quite probable that the Dardani actually lost independence in 28 BC thus, the final occupation of Dardania by Rome has been connected with the beginnings of Augustus' rule in 6 AD, when they were finally conquered by Rome.
    I showed you literal documentation that in 167BC Dardanians required the permission of Romans to import salt, it should be self evident enough for anybody with basic reading comprehension that this means Dardanians and romans are interacting since the earliest moment of Latin presence in the Balkans (167BC). 167 Bc is the second century BC, but the loans from this period in Albanian are the rarest, and only later in the middle period is where the most of Latin loans come into Albanian.

    Also, the stuff you tried to write about dialects is such total nonsense, you should stick to your day job.

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    But then again, i don't think a Central Balkans Albanoid language was vastly different from Thracian/Illyrian. It must have shared an Early/Middle Bronze Age common ancestor with either both or one of the languages.

    We have yet to prove if Illyrian derive from Yamnaya or Corded, the same thing applies to Greek and Thracian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    But then again, i don't think a Central Balkans Albanoid language was vastly different from Thracian/Illyrian. It must have shared an Early/Middle Bronze Age common ancestor with either both or one of the languages.
    We have yet to prove if Illyrian derive from Yamnaya or Corded, the same thing applies to Greek and Thracian.
    According to Cambridge univ.....Celtic-italic-Illyric where one language in Eneolitihic period in north central balkans .............the Illyric split off become the Belotic— Bela Crkva group, which was the fundamental element out of which the Illyrians later evolved.
    the furthest south this Illyric group evolved was the vattina group of modern northern serbia.
    the daunians , that is the Illyrian population , ie the Iapyges, includes the Messapians and the Chonians probably left the eastern coasts of the
    Adriatic for Italy during this period. ....................some have confused the Chonians with Chaonians ( one of 14 epirote tribes ) which is an error.
    This bears witness to contacts between the two coasts of the Adriatic during the eleventh and tenth centuries BC. There are many indications of strong Illyrian influence in
    Italy at this time, ie Liburnians .
    They did say that they do not understand how much Illyric was involved with the Thracian and Daco-Moesian languages during the iron-age

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Matzinger never said Scodra is non-Illyrian, he said it cannot be Albanian, which is a legitimate argument. So if scodra is to be Illyrian then it cannot be Albanian.

    This is the third time that you are misunderstanding a basic one sentence argument. Likewise the rest of your post is totally filled with misunderstandings of yours that lead you to become confused and emotional. Also you don't seem to know anything about Northeast Gheg, which begins in Puka, Albania and extends into Kosova. Stop embarrassing yourself and try learn something instead of being a kneejerk reactionary.
    How can Matzinger know that its non-Albanian if a large part of Albanian vocabulary was replaced by loan words?

    Typical sheep mentality believing anything some linguist (not some high IQ scientist/academic) has to say about a non recorded language.

    Yes, North Eastern Gheg starts in Puka, the original territory of the Berisha and Thaci clans. Pukas dialect is distinct from Tropoja and Kukesi dialects (both North Eastern) by a lot. But they all have, together with Gjakova and Peja, extensive North Western influence.

    The rest of Kosovo dialects are relatively new and almost identical to one another. Its obvious they all spread from Rrafshi Dukagjinit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I showed you literal documentation that in 167BC Dardanians required the permission of Romans to import salt, it should be self evident enough for anybody with basic reading comprehension that this means Dardanians and romans are interacting since the earliest moment of Latin presence in the Balkans (167BC). 167 Bc is the second century BC, but the loans from this period in Albanian are the rarest, and only later in the middle period is where the most of Latin loans come into Albanian.

    Also, the stuff you tried to write about dialects is such total nonsense, you should stick to your day job.
    And I showed you that the Dardanians were finally subdued and invaded some 200 years after the first Illyrian Wars, with the coastal Illyrian cities and some Southern tribes (Parthini) becoming Allied Cities and later got the status of Roman colonies. Same goes to Chaonia in Epirus. Up to that point the Dardanians were simply pacified. Jesus, did you really need me to break this down to you?

    The stuff I wrote about dialects its the current reality. You can verify all the details I wrote down and consider yourself lucky you learned something about your supposed language. Are you from Prizren that youre so unaware of the characteristics of the Albanian dialects in Albania? Stick to Ottoman studies better, your Turkish brothers would appreciate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    How can Matzinger know that it�s non-Albanian if a large part of Albanian vocabulary was replaced by loan words?
    Because the original Albanian vocabulary has the reflexes which is constant. You don't understand it so you are getting triggered and whingeing.

    Also trying to resort to focussing on Matzinger when the Albanian reflex of IE /sk/ is universally agreed on by linguists, and it has constantly been cited as a problem since the 20th century.

    Here is Eric Hamp for example:


    "The fact that Scodra 'Scutari' (Shkodër) shows un-Albanian development, that there is no demonstrated old maritime vocabulary, and that there are few ancient Greek loans, and that there are arguments in favor of old Dardania, Nish < Naíssos"


    1963


    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Typical sheep mentality believing anything some linguist (not some high IQ scientist/academic) has to say about a non recorded language.
    I initially tried to be polite to you because it was obvious that you didn't really understand what the arguments are, but you show your level of engagement here, and so I will not show you even the slightest of respect from this point on.

    You bring up IQ yet every second sentence of yours screams an absence of it. You make the most moronic arguments I have seen in a while, and don't even understand what you are arguing.

    And what does the medieval expansion of Northeast Gegë from Dukagjin have to do with proto-Albanian expansion? Are you this moronic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    And I showed you that the Dardanians were finally subdued and invaded some 200 years after the first Illyrian Wars, with the coastal Illyrian cities and some Southern tribes (Parthini) becoming Allied Cities and later got the status of Roman colonies. Same goes to Chaonia in Epirus. Up to that point the Dardanians were simply pacified. Jesus, did you really need me to break this down to you?

    The �stuff� I wrote about dialects it�s the current reality. You can verify all the details I wrote down and consider yourself lucky you learned something about your supposed language. Are you from Prizren that you�re so unaware of the characteristics of the Albanian dialects in Albania? Stick to Ottoman studies better, your Turkish brothers would appreciate it.
    Typical chimp mentality. Go eat a banana and distract yourself with some tree swinging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Because the original Albanian vocabulary has the reflexes which is constant. You don't understand it so you are getting triggered and whingeing.

    Also trying to resort to focussing on Matzinger when the Albanian reflex of IE /sk/ is universally agreed on by linguists, and it has constantly been cited as a problem since the 20th century

    Here is Eric Hamp for example:


    "The fact that Scodra 'Scutari' (Shkodër) shows un-Albanian development, that there is no demonstrated old maritime vocabulary, and that there are few ancient Greek loans, and that there are arguments in favor of old Dardania, Nish < Naíssos"


    1963
    Un-Albanian development? What do you expect us to call a former Illyrian capital, regional center, Imperial town, Hodr/Hodra?

    Similarly, Shkumbin should be humbin? Sk- to shk- is an Albanian development. You think 100% of sk became h? Ancient Greek and Latin both shifted Proto-IE sk to k/c, while preserving it in other instances.

    *shqerr - from dialectal shkjerr, from Proto-Albanian*skera, from Proto-Indo-European*(s)ker(H)- (compare Englishshear, Ancient Greekκείρω(kerō, to shear; ravage, destroy), Lithuanianskrti(to cut, divide)).

    *harr - from Proto-Albanian*skarna, from *skera. Cognate with Gothicus-skarjan(us-skarjan, to tear out), Lithuanianskiri.

    *shkrep 1 - from Proto-Albanian*krep-, from Proto-Indo-European*ker-p-, *krep-(to crack, crash), an onomatopoeic root. Cognate to Latincrepo(to resound, ring, tone). A formation with the prefix sh-.

    *shkrep 2 - from a singularized plural of shkarp, a sh- prefixed formation from karp, from Proto-Indo-European*kṛHp-.

    *karp - from Proto-Albanian*karpā, from Proto-Indo-European*kerp-(to pluck). Compare Lithuaniankar̃pas(hack, notch), Swedishharv(harrow), Ancient Greekκαρπός(karps, fruit). See also the name of the Carpathians.
    *shkrumb/shkrum - from Proto-Albanian*i-kruma, with a non etymological -mb-<*m (cf. Romanian scrum, from Albanian) from Proto-Indo-European*krem, attested in Latin cremō(to burn)[1], or from Proto-Indo-European*skremb, *skr̥mb (cf. Lithuanian skrembti(to crust over, stiffen), Swedish skrympa(to shrink), English shrimp). Compare also Romanianscrum(ashes).

    Youre probably confusing the Albanian development with the etymology of Scodra which is an entirely different topic unrelated to the Albanian urheimat.

    Its like saying Ancient Greek wasnt spoken in Greece because Athens, Corinth, Larissa, etc. are Pre-Greek.

    You also have to define time periods as in what do you personally call Proto-Albanian? Because linguists mention Proto-Albanian to show its contact with Latin from 2nd century BC to 5th century AD. So Albanian was in Southern Illyrian in the 2nd century BC but its not an Illyrian language?

    What Albanian Urheimat are you talking about? 1600 BC? The urheimat could have been in Poland and Hungary for all I care. All those Albanian-Illyrian-Messapic cognates fall to deaf ears because you believe Scodra is not an Albanian development?

    Looking at the counter examples of k- to shk- with a sh- prefix its pretty plausible to include Shkodra deriving from kodra/kodr (hill) as a theory to say the least.

    Im starting to doubt Matzinger really said that and its rather your personal interpretation. Matzinger has been wrong before and has updated his theories, but the issue is people like you jumping into conclusions that fit your agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I initially tried to be polite to you because it was obvious that you didn't really understand what the arguments are, but you show your level of engagement here, and so I will not show you even the slightest of respect from this point on.
    I dont need your respect, neighbour. But youre talking about my language here and youre throwing baseless assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    And what does the medieval expansion of Northeast Gegë from Dukagjin have to do with proto-Albanian expansion? Are you this moronic?
    You clearly called the language as Dardanian derived and not Illyrian, creating so many question marks as to when did the Dardanians/non-Illyrians migrate into Praevalitana and Epirus? Because its obvious they werent there prior the Roman occupation.

    According to you Albanian got Doric words from these Dardanians who got them from the Macedonians, but not from the Southern Illyrians who were in direct contact (land and sea route) with Doric Corinthians and their colonies. Extremely plausible, CEO of Logic.

    Now youre probably going to twist the topic again and go into the pre 1200 BC era and mention the legendary Dardanians that even crossed into Anatolia to found Troy.

    The Galabri (Dardanians) crossed the Adriatic and settled in Apulia, giving birth to what would be later known as Calabri. Remember, they were Dardanians not Illyrians because Illyrians had sk-.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Un-Albanian development? What do you expect us to call a former Illyrian capital, regional center, Imperial town, Hod�r/Hodra?

    Similarly, Shkumbin should be humbin? Sk- to shk- is an Albanian development. You think 100% of sk became h? Ancient Greek and Latin both shifted Proto-IE sk to k/c, while preserving it in other instances.
    No, it should have been *Hádër, here he explicitly states it:



    We have coins from the pre-latin phase of Scodra that write SKODRINON. Albanian did not have /o/ vowel since its early proto Albanian stage, so this name cannot come from the Albanian language. Albanian did not have the native /sk/ cluster since early proto-Albanian stage, so this is another feature in the same word that is impossible to be from Albanian.

    These are not disputable facts, all IE. /sk/ was changed very early in Albanian, there is no exceptions for this, the words you listed do not come from the IE /sk/ (some come from a /k/ + a later /sh-/ intensive prefix in Albanian, which is something else entirely).

    Sk becomes shk in Albanian at a later stage of Albanian, so that Sk became Shk in shkoder means this toponym entered the Albanian vocabulary at a later stage of its development. Likewise, that the /o/ is not /a/ or /u/ in Albanian also testifies to he fact that this was learnt at a late stage of Albanian, because the IE. /o/ became /a/ very early in Albanian (nokt -> natë).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    I�m starting to doubt Matzinger really said that and it�s rather your personal interpretation. Matzinger has been wrong before and has updated his theories, but the issue is people like you jumping into conclusions that fit your agenda.
    I literally screenshotted and highlighted what he said in the images, so you can simply google translate them if you don't believe me and are not understanding them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Looking at the counter examples of k- to shk- with a sh- prefix it�s pretty plausible to include Shkodra deriving from kodra/kod�r (hill) as a theory to say the least.
    Albanian. kodër is a loan from Late Latin. Quadrum.
    We also have Romanian. codru from the same Latin source.

    It is therefore impossible that Scodra is related to Albanian. kodër as this word did not yet exist in Albanian before Roman presence in the blkans, while Scodra is already attested in greek script before roman presence.

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    #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    You also have to define time periods as in what do you personally call Proto-Albanian?
    I showed visually and made a very clear diagram of Matzinger's scheme for the division between Early-Proto-Albanian and Proto-Albanian in post #158 of this thread.

    My entire philosophy is about seeking out the truth in good faith and not being manipulative when sharing it.

    I always try to include the page number and title of the quote I include, so that it can be verified, and I try to visualise to make a confusing subject more accessible and highlight the crux of the argument.

    If it's missing it is usually because I am posting from my phone on the bus or something and so am more limited with editing images.

    So again, that you accuse me of making things up annoys me since I'm in good faith trying to update our arguments for the 21st century instead of repeating the same stupid arguments that no scientist in any university takes seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    According to you Albanian got Doric words from these Dardanians who got them from the Macedonians, but not from the Southern Illyrians who were in direct contact (land and sea route) with Doric Corinthians and their colonies. Extremely plausible, CEO of Logic.
    Lets clear up some confusion:

    1. Albanian has very few total loan words from Ancient Greek
    2. Albanian has two types of loan words from Ancient Greek
    3. One layer of Ancient Greek loan words in Albanian comes from regions of "Macedonia" and fit as being loaned directly into Albanian, via being neighbours.
    4. The second layer of Ancient Greek loan words, these are the ones related to trade, things you buy at the market, do not fit as being loaned directly into Albanian, but via a 3rd intermediary non-Greek, non-Albanian language, which Martin Huld calls the "Adriatic tribesmen" living in Greek colonies like Epidamnus (Durrës) and Apollonia.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    All those Albanian-Illyrian-Messapic cognates fall to deaf ears because you believe Scodra is not an Albanian development?

    For the relations of Albanian with Messapic, which is the closest balkan indo european language to Albanian found so far, but still NOT Albanian, Matzinger already addressed this in the paper linked below.





    Matzinger argues that Albanian descends from a Balkan Indo European language that had closer contacts with pre-Illyrian-Messapic at an earlier stage of its history (than it did with Armenian for example, which is also a part of the Balkan Indo-European group).

    For me, I have argued for quite a while that this is the Dardanian contact that led to this closer shift to Albanian.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    the issue is people like you jumping into conclusions that fit your agenda.
    My agenda is the truth. This will serve everyone the best, I don't have an agenda to make proto-Albanians come from Dardanians, it just always fits more and more along the years I have been researching this question.

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    At least youre done with personal insults. Id like a productive discussion as Im interested in learning and not in gathering disciples to accept my personal theories.

    I take a skeptical stance in such topics because Ive read 100 different theories since at least the 19th century and they keep coming.

    *kodr/kodra - Uncertain. Could be from From Proto-Indo-European *ker-d'short mountain', from *(s)ker- ("short"). Otherwise from Latin quadrum or from Proto-Indo-European *kaito 'forest'. Compare Romanian codru, Aromanian coduru, Old Persian (H)ara-kadri ("mountain ravine"), Welsh cader ("fortress"), Old Irish cathir ("town, city"), Umbrian kateramu("congregation"), Bulgarian ktor ("hurdle"), Gothic haii , Old High German heida 'heath'. For sense development from high ground to city compare Germanic *burg.

    Having said that, Im of the opinion that Latin influence in Albanian is highly speculative and its 60% contribution is pulled out of someones arse.

    How about Skodra being of a different root from Hader? How about Hader being related to Adria, stemming from Venetic adur (water), Proto-Albanian udria (modern Alb. ujra)?

    Skodra could be related to Skudra (possibly related to Phrygians/Brygians, know to have inhabited parts of Albania), Scardus/Scodrus/Scordus/Scardon (Sharr Mountains).

    In the end its just a city name and we can speculate for 100 years and never know the answer. K- to sk- is still a possibility, no idea how you can disregard it. Why does Skodra have to be Early Proto-IE? Skodrinon itself raises more possibilities of being related to Albanian kodrina (hilly terrain) and could have simply meant also town/fortress as the example of Germanic berg.

    Latin quadrum is the most retarded conclusion Ive ever read.

    From my personal research, I see more similarities than differences between neighbouring ancient languages. Albanian, Illyrian, Messapic, Epirotic, Macedonian, Venetic, all have instances of similar words. I can bring examples if you want.

    Applying math and splitting hairs with theories of non-Albanian non-Illyrian non-Greek languages being spoken in Albania is also retarded. Illyrian is not a well defined (not defined at all if you ask me) language, so authors better use the term Illyric languages, just like the Italic languages (Latin, Oscan, Umbrian, etc.) and the Hellenic languages (Greek, Phrygian, etc.).

    A single Illyric origin is downright retarded knowing the turbulent situation in 2000 years. The existence of so many Albanian variants nowadays to me personally indicates the existence of several Illyric dialects that did not fully merge under a Koine system like Latin or Greek.

    Just out of curiosity, when do these linguists (Matzinger, Hamp) believe that Albanian transformed sk- to h? Any approximate centuries? Bronze Age? Early Iron Age? Late Iron Age?


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    @Dushman

    what evidence do you have of this sentence below that you made?


    The Galabri (Dardanians) crossed the Adriatic and settled in Apulia, giving birth to what would be later known as Calabri. Remember, they were Dardanians not Illyrians because Illyrians had sk-.


    Let me Know and i will check,....... there is no adriatic connection from the Daunian , Messapic (only liburnian and dalmatian lands ) when they arrived in apulia circa 1000BC until they began making their own pottery circa 400BC, they where are closed society , not even mixing with the Italics that they did not conquer initially

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    … not sure if it applies, … it can get confusing:

    … the name Calabria was originally given to the Adriatic coast of the Salento peninsula in modern Apulia.

    In the late first century BC this name came to extend to the entirety of the Salento, when the Roman emperor Augustus divided Italy into regions.

    The whole region of Apulia received the name Regio II Apulia et Calabria.
    By this time modern Calabria was still known as Bruttium …

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria#Etymology

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