Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

You were banned because you were spamming multiple threads with pseudo-linguistic fringe theories about Dorians and Phrygians. After you got banned all the regulars could focus on real subjects and discussions instead of having to deal with the constant production of conspiracy theories that degenerated all serious debates.

As for why I was banned, I was banned because I used a swear word at Aspurg. This elaborate narrative you have created may be some personal wish of yours about why it happened, but I was banned for using a swear word at him and nothing else.

If you are a pathological liar who needs to spread such a fake narrative then so be it.

And about all this "serious debate", why did Bruzmi wait until I posted it in anthrogenica to then post the latest Hyllested study? Oh don't get me started on Zanatis's theories about Assasins Creed connections with Albanian, very serious debate indeed.

Bruzmi had been hyping this paper up for months and making false claims about it, getting you and all his other cheerleaders hopes up for nothing. Really sad to be honest.
 
As for the West Adriatic samples those are as you said Daunians, mainly, and one Iapygian from Grotte delle Mura.

Collectively they were all known as Iapygians. Sample NE0806 from Grotta delle Mura site that Trojet analyzed comes from the Paucetian region.
 
I think the Albanian language is most tied to r1b-z2705, so again trying to portray me as forcing some sort of E-V13 only scenario(?) is pure projection from your end. As is the rest just total garbage you project on to me.

The Messapic language is most densely found in the heel of Italy, old Calabria, with comparatively barely any messapic language finds in the Daunian regions, even though there are acounts that Calabrians later expanded all the way into Daunia.

The heel had way more flow from the south and strait of Otranto, so this again opens up for a totally different flow of people and trade than the utmost northern regions where you had rich flow with j2b-l283 rich regions such as that of the Iapodians.

Trying to infer that the Calabrian southern regions, Messapia proper, have j2b-l283 when we still don't have any actual results from these regions is motivated by obvious propaganda purposes when its clear these two regions had very different influences.

Right, just because you rushed to create a sock account to plug in your twitter's posts others have to rush in to post too. Yes, just because you posted something, only for that reason others did so. Sure. Keep coping about one more paper which ruined your "Albanian = Thracian" posts.

So the Albanian language is "mostly" tied to a haplogroup which formed in 700 BC with TMRCA 550 AD? Can your fringe theories become even more ludicrous? It's pointless to argue with you any longer. You're posting garbage theories which display 0 understanding of genetics.

Apparently R-Z29758 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z29758/ with very high diversity among Albanians since 2300 ybp (4300 BC) doesn't even exist. Such posts are great because they show that you understand nothing at all about anything that we're discussing.

Everything that you have posted about Daunians is pure nonsense. Nobody and I repeat, not a single historian, linguist, archaeologist or anyone else for that matter thinks that they were different ethnic groups. You and only you started to claim such a thing once you realized that if Albanian is related to Messapic then it can't have been spoken in Thrace or Dacia and that J-L283 is a key haplogroup for the Albanian-Messapic connection. Our R-Z29758 is very important too for the connection because it's high in Apulia and we'll see about E-V13 and R-Z2103, although not all haplogroups are required for the connection as J-L283 by itself has sealed it.
 
The above is the general consensus with regards to Iapygians and Messapians. As Albanians, we should all be proud that we finally have genetic evidence that connects them to us, at least in the form of Y haplogroup J2b-L283.

Indeed, this is my main take too. We can just ignore from now on people who for their own reasons simply don't like reality.
 
Collectively they were all known as Iapygians. Sample NE0806 from Grotta delle Mura site that Trojet analyzed comes from the Paucetian region.
I am aware of that but as far as I remembered his classification wasn't clear, as in if he was Paucetian, Messapian or part of another Iapygian people.

Either way, I really am trying not to get drawn into such off topic discussions. But to make matters clear: What it shows is that the historical and archeological attestation of Illyrian presence in the West Adriatic has been additively confirmed by population genetic research.

This has nothing to do with the distribution and presence of paternal markers in modern populations. Making correlations between certain parental markers where there clearly aren't any, whilst each and every other paper refutes such internet enthusiasts' pseudo-scientific claims, is bound to be false.

 
I am aware of that but as far as I remembered his classification wasn't clear, as in if he was Paucetian, Messapian or part of another Iapygian people.

Either way, I really am trying not to get drawn into such off topic discussions. But to make matters clear: What it shows is that the historical and archeological attestation of Illyrian presence in the West Adriatic has been additively confirmed by population genetic research.

This has nothing to do with the distribution and presence of paternal markers in modern populations. Making correlations between certain parental markers where there clearly aren't any, whilst each and every other paper refutes such internet enthusiasts' pseudo-scientific claims, is bound to be false.

True, and the period can be problematic labeling as such because we don’t know if they had formed such a tribal identity that early on (1063BC). Hence why I only mentioned the region that came to be known as such during Iron Age. However, finding such a sample from another major Iapygian tribal region does strengthen the theory that they probably were all related. We will probably find such linages further south among Messapians as well.
 
The Iapygians or Apulians (/aɪəˈpɪdʒiənz/; Greek: Ἰάπυγες, Ĭāpyges; Latin: Iāpyges, Iapygii, Umbrian Iabuscer) were an Indo-European speaking people, dwelling in an eponymous region of the southeastern Italian Peninsula named Iapygia (modern Apulia) between the beginning of the first millennium BC and the first century BC. They were divided into three tribal groups: the Daunians, Peucetians and Messapians.
Messapic (/mɛˈsæpɪk, mə-, -ˈseɪ-/; also known as Messapian; or as Iapygian) is an extinct Indo-European language of the southeastern Italian Peninsula, once spoken in Apulia by the Iapygian peoples of the region: the Calabri and Salentini (known collectively as the Messapii), the Peucetians and the Daunians.
The leading view among scholars, already mentioned by ancient sources and supported by archaeological evidence, is that Iapygians have migrated from the Western Balkans towards southeastern Italy in the early first millennium BCE.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapygians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language
The above is the general consensus with regards to Iapygians and Messapians. As Albanians, we should all be proud that we finally have genetic evidence that connects them to us, at least in the form of Y haplogroup J2b-L283.


It would be great if you mentioned they ( Iapygian ) originate from North Dalmatia ............instead of the false map attached to your link

The region was known to the Greeks of the 5th century BC as Iapygía (Ἰαπυγία), and its inhabitants as the Iápyges (Ἰάπυγες). It was probably the term used by the indigenous peoples to designate themselves.[1] The name Iapyges has also been compared to that of the Iapydes, an Illyrian tribe of northern Dalmatia.[2]

the Peucetians......part of the Daunian mix
The Encyclopédie under "Peuceti", distinguishes them from another ancient people, the Peucetioe who were living in Liburnia at the head of the Adriatic, with a reference to Callimachus, as quoted in Pliny (H.N. III.21) placing their country in Pliny's day as part of Illyria.[3]
They had three important towns: Canosa, Silvium and Bitonto; the present capital of Apulia, Bari, had not much importance.

Iapygia came from where the pink meets the yellow near istria on map below

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Butler_Vindellicia_Illyricum.jpg

 
Wilkes argued there was a Latinised Illyrian population living around the Lake of Shkoder, Drin and Fan valleys, from Lezhe to Ulpiana, as well as some in Mat and Black Drin, down to the Via Egnatia, between the 6th and 9th centuries AD.

These were not proto-Albanian speakers.

Wilkes:

"There can surely be no doubt that the Komani-Kruja cemeteries indicate the survival of a non-Slav population between the sixth and ninth centuries, and their most likely identification seems to be with a Romanized population of lllyrian origin driven out by Slav settlements further north, the 'Romanoi" mentioned by Constantine Porphyrogenitus.

This interpretation is supported by the concentration of Latin place-names around the Lake of Shkoder, in the Drin and Fan valleys and along the road from Lissus to Ulpiana in Kosovo, with some in the Black Drin and Mat valleys, a distribution limited on the south by the line of the Via Egnatia."

These Latinised Illyrians spoke a Dalmatian variety of Latin and were most likely pushed south by slavs according to Wilkes and also Bowden, the more recent scholar of the Komani-Kruja culture.

Most probably these Romanoi were linguistically Albanised with time as some Dalmatian vlachs were linguistically assimilated by Croatians.

What haplogroups did the Romanoi belong to? I would here guess that they were probably J2b-L283 and possibly some Ev13 branches.
 
Derite, this was shared by you.

EgaggnCWsAE2Hle


I think that it's quite interesting how the name of Dardanian king is identical to Odrysian prince Monunius son of Berisades/Peresadyes, not only that, Hammond said that Bardyllis came from Peresadyes tribe. Same name can also be attested among Spartokid Kings of Black Sea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paerisades_III.

Hammond also said that Enchelei/Sesarethi either co-ruled or were from Peresadyes themselves. I find it strange the King of Dardanians to be buried in Selce, South Albania. He must have had connections there.

If you connect the dots, the Psenicevo E-V13 which in historical time was known as Odrysian stronghold came via Mediana/Central Balkans there. I suspect a Bronze-Iron Age split.

And, also the helmet of Monunius looks interesting. It's a so called Thraco-Hellenic type of helmet. Notice the Phrygian-cape like style of the helmet, but his was quite minimal and more elegant IMO.

EazHggEXYAE2TOC.png


Just some small pieces of puzzle which i think cannot be coincidence.
 
Derite, this was shared by you.

EgaggnCWsAE2Hle


I think that it's quite interesting how the name of Dardanian king is identical to Odrysian prince Monunius son of Berisades/Peresadyes, not only that, Hammond said that Bardyllis came from Peresadyes tribe. Same name can also be attested among Spartokid Kings of Black Sea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paerisades_III.

Hammond also said that Enchelei/Sesarethi either co-ruled or were from Peresadyes themselves. I find it strange the King of Dardanians to be buried in Selce, South Albania. He must have had connections there.

If you connect the dots, the Psenicevo E-V13 which in historical time was known as Odrysian stronghold came via Mediana/Central Balkans there. I suspect a Bronze-Iron Age split.

And, also the helmet of Monunius looks interesting. It's a so called Thraco-Hellenic type of helmet. Notice the Phrygian-cape like style of the helmet, but his was quite minimal and more elegant IMO.

EazHggEXYAE2TOC.png


Just some small pieces of puzzle which i think cannot be coincidence.

If Thracian is somehow a balkan yamnaya derived language also, then maybe Dardanian and Thracian had a common ancestor that split in MBA-LBA, but something doesn't add up tbh here.

I agree with Riverman that channeled ware must have had E-V13 as one of the dominant lineages, its the only large scale movement in that timeframe that fits to explain the LBA-EIA EV13 expansion.

I don't buy Bruzmi's version of events that E-V13 was simply an isolated minority lineage until after the Roman empire where it then had massive founder effect in Balkans, Italy, etc.

Viminacium being 47% EV13 fits better the Riverman model of previous cremators that suddenly pop up after being romanised/christianised and abandoning cremation.

So which language did the chanelled ware spread? If it wasn't proto-Thracian/dacian and these were earlier established by corded ware or something else, could it have been that channeled ware spread some other language that fizzled out?

I.e, in greece we do see cremation popping up everywhere, but there is no real replacement of the Greek language.

Could it be like the situation of the 10,000 vandals in africa that couldn't keep their own language?

Did Channelled ware spread ev13 across the balkans but not make a dent linguistically in more firmly rooted places?

From Bouzek:

Some groups from SE part of Central Europe arrived at least to Macedonia,
where their so-called Lausitz Ware derived from that of the Čaka culture in
SW Slovakia (fig. 27) and western Hungary (AAE 190–191). The Balkan tribes
invaded Troad (Bithynia, Mysia) and Phrygia. The former had their previous
roots in northern and eastern Thrace, the latter more westwards, in the area
of later Brygi and Paeonians (HG 66–69, AAE 180–200; GAE 87–100; fig. 26).
Some of the warrior groups coming via Italy and also those coming by
land settled, in many places they either became the landlords, or developed
a kind of symbiosis with the old elites.

This situation resembles much what happened at Great Migrations period. Not too many people were needed
to create a military force in the small wars. According to the Salic laws, as
unauthorized bands were considered those consisting of less than 16 men, the
groups of 16 or more men were already classified as armies.



10 000 Vandals founded their empire in North Africa, as did a similar
number of Visigoths in Spain; Ostrogots and Langobards in Italy were also
not much more numerous. None of them preserved their language, and their
rule was based on some compromise with the earlier traditions on the lower
level. Their bands were in the system of Gefolgschaft composed of able warriors, in the Great Migration period even after the defeat the good warriors
accepted often a new tribal identity.



These groups apparently were too small, and coming with essentially
less women than men. They no much chance to preserve their identity for
long. Even later the Slavonic migrants became graecised in most parts of
southern and central Greece, and the same happened with the Albanians in
these territories, not mentioning the descendants of the Francs, Venetians
and Genovans. The LBA groups were apparently smaller, but they got their
chance in the time of famine and interior struggle."


Somehow Channelled ware and EV13 are tied into a knot in this problem, and the only way to untie it is to be precise with establishing which group brought which tribal names (which can persist even after losing original language), etc.
 
These mysterious conservative mountain people that lived in the Nish/Shtip zone and started moving west around 100AD practiced cremation, and only after 300AD does inhumation also start to appear alongside cremations.

FLt3UpwX0AQf5hG

FLvOJzyXoAQDf6G
 
These mysterious conservative mountain people that lived in the Nish/Shtip zone and started moving west around 100AD practiced cremation, and only after 300AD does inhumation also start to appear alongside cremations.

FLt3UpwX0AQf5hG

FLvOJzyXoAQDf6G

I mention these mysterious conservative mountain people since finds of this kind were also found at Viminacium, which was 47% EV13

FLyu1K6X0AEsXNC
 
So, we must listen to you desperate J2b2 trolls trying to make us without identity then. :LOL:

Why do you get so triggered when we mention E-V13 in any discussion?

Btw, why do you keep switching accounts and posting between 1337 and enter_tain? Keep it solid man.

I am 1337 , I just forgot my email and password because I used something random now I can't access my account, though I would like to get it back. I don't know how.
 
Take a look at that map from Rrenjet. South Kosova is almost 50% R1b, West Macedonia is 35% R1b. No one here talking about that. Even in southern Albania there place where R1b is #1 haplogroup. But these EV13 trolls want credit for "Proto-Albanians". Northern Kosova is the only place where EV-13 goes >40%. Northern Albania is >40% J2B2. But there are also places where EV-13 is like 10-15%, even in Kosova.

Haplogrupet-sipas-qarqeve-1.png


This is what happens with founder effects. You have the same groups but in radically different % city-by-city, village-by-village, even amongst modern Albanians.

Albanian Y-DNAs vary vastly area-by-area, but they are almost identical autosomally.
 
@Johane Derite

Get the percentages straight. Viminacium is not 47% E-V13.

There was no "mysterious people that started moving west around 100 AD" You are currently essentially making things up as you go. In late antiquity, Nish was a well developed Illyrian metropolis. Nothing about it is "mysterious"

Do you know who some of the closest samples are for the E-V13 from Naissus in the 4th century?

Distance to: Roman_NaissusR6764-K13-sim
0.02027469 French_Corsica
0.02442826 Italian_Tuscany
0.02698846 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02743310 Italian_Umbria
0.02788543 Italian_Piedmont
0.02874098 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.02885823 Italian_Marche
0.02908996 Albanian_Himarë
0.02926597 Italian_Lazio
0.03027062 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03128594 Italian_Bergamo
0.03179012 Albanian_Labëria
0.03179590 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03205227 Italian_Lombardy
0.03246714 Greek_Attica
0.03250577 Greek_Thessaly
0.03297211 Albanian_Dibra
0.03348610 Greek_Central_Greece_Phocis
0.03374178 Albanian_Pukë
0.03378109 Greek_Western_Greece_Aetolia-Acarnania
0.03382799 Greek_Central_Greece_Boeotia
0.03478587 Albanian
0.03495215 Swiss_Italian
0.03561090 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03561757 Italian_Abruzzo


Because Thracians were closely related to Aegean Greeks, this profile is not Thracian. This is one of the most significant problems with any explanation about Albanians that attempts to separate them from Albania. The IA profile most similar to present Albanians is from... IA Albania, and this could be the profile of all Illyrians from Montenegro, Albania, and Kosovo.
 
Take a look at that map from Rrenjet. South Kosova is almost 50% R1b, West Macedonia is 35% R1b. No one here talking about that. Even in southern Albania there place where R1b is #1 haplogroup. But these EV13 trolls want credit for "Proto-Albanians". Northern Kosova is the only place where EV-13 goes >40%. Northern Albania is >40% J2B2. But there are also places where EV-13 is like 10-15%, even in Kosova.

This is what happens with founder effects. You have the same groups but in radically different % city-by-city, village-by-village, even amongst modern Albanians.

Albanian Y-DNAs vary vastly area-by-area, but they are almost identical autosomally.

I agree, presence of R1b is underestimated
 
Johane Derite

Get the percentages straight. Viminacium is not 47% E-V13.

There was no "mysterious people that started moving west around 100 AD" You are currently essentially making things up as you go. In late antiquity, Nish was a well developed Illyrian metropolis. Nothing about it is "mysterious"

Do you know who some of the closest samples are for the E-V13 from Naissus in the 4th century?

Distance to: Roman_NaissusR6764-K13-sim
0.02027469 French_Corsica
0.02442826 Italian_Tuscany
0.02698846 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02743310 Italian_Umbria
0.02788543 Italian_Piedmont
0.02874098 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.02885823 Italian_Marche
0.02908996 Albanian_Himarë
0.02926597 Italian_Lazio
0.03027062 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03128594 Italian_Bergamo
0.03179012 Albanian_Labëria
0.03179590 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03205227 Italian_Lombardy
0.03246714 Greek_Attica
0.03250577 Greek_Thessaly
0.03297211 Albanian_Dibra
0.03348610 Greek_Central_Greece_Phocis
0.03374178 Albanian_Pukë
0.03378109 Greek_Western_Greece_Aetolia-Acarnania
0.03382799 Greek_Central_Greece_Boeotia
0.03478587 Albanian
0.03495215 Swiss_Italian
0.03561090 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03561757 Italian_Abruzzo


Because Thracians were closely related to Aegean Greeks, this profile is not Thracian. This is one of the most significant problems with any explanation about Albanians that attempts to separate them from Albania. The IA profile most similar to present Albanians is from... IA Albania, and this could be the profile of all Illyrians from Montenegro, Albania, and Kosovo.


Interesting, do you have more of these samples or IA Albania?
 
Take a look at that map from Rrenjet. South Kosova is almost 50% R1b, West Macedonia is 35% R1b. No one here talking about that. Even in southern Albania there place where R1b is #1 haplogroup. But these EV13 trolls want credit for "Proto-Albanians". Northern Kosova is the only place where EV-13 goes >40%. Northern Albania is >40% J2B2. But there are also places where EV-13 is like 10-15%, even in Kosova.

Haplogrupet-sipas-qarqeve-1.png


This is what happens with founder effects. You have the same groups but in radically different % city-by-city, village-by-village, even amongst modern Albanians.

Albanian Y-DNAs vary vastly area-by-area, but they are almost identical autosomally.

You have a big mouth Gashjan. Careful how you address people constantly.

R1b is not 35% in Western Macedonia, it's E-V13 instead (and R1b is like 18%, J2b2 is like ~14%) based on peer reviewed scientific paper from North Macedonia 2020, which is far more reliable study due to very good sampling strategy (which is extremely important).

Northern Albania is not >40% J2b2-L283, it's Malsia e Gjakovas and again nobody can guarantee us how did the sampling strategy went in the sense of it needs to go through several pipelines and one of them is peer reviewing the strategy used, something which they lack. Good for sampling subclades, but not truly reliable for indicating and reflecting percentage.
 
@Johane Derite

Get the percentages straight. Viminacium is not 47% E-V13.

There was no "mysterious people that started moving west around 100 AD" You are currently essentially making things up as you go. In late antiquity, Nish was a well developed Illyrian metropolis. Nothing about it is "mysterious"

Do you know who some of the closest samples are for the E-V13 from Naissus in the 4th century?

Distance to: Roman_NaissusR6764-K13-sim
0.02027469 French_Corsica
0.02442826 Italian_Tuscany
0.02698846 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02743310 Italian_Umbria
0.02788543 Italian_Piedmont
0.02874098 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.02885823 Italian_Marche
0.02908996 Albanian_Himarë
0.02926597 Italian_Lazio
0.03027062 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03128594 Italian_Bergamo
0.03179012 Albanian_Labëria
0.03179590 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03205227 Italian_Lombardy
0.03246714 Greek_Attica
0.03250577 Greek_Thessaly
0.03297211 Albanian_Dibra
0.03348610 Greek_Central_Greece_Phocis
0.03374178 Albanian_Pukë
0.03378109 Greek_Western_Greece_Aetolia-Acarnania
0.03382799 Greek_Central_Greece_Boeotia
0.03478587 Albanian
0.03495215 Swiss_Italian
0.03561090 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03561757 Italian_Abruzzo


Because Thracians were closely related to Aegean Greeks, this profile is not Thracian. This is one of the most significant problems with any explanation about Albanians that attempts to separate them from Albania. The IA profile most similar to present Albanians is from... IA Albania, and this could be the profile of all Illyrians from Montenegro, Albania, and Kosovo.

You jump off conclusions, Derite is right, it's 47%, and here is the paper directly citing it, not only that, they think it was probably even moreso if not for the cremation, it's the transitional period toward Christianity and many people were abandoning old rituals.

A local origin is supported by a high frequency of Ychromosome lineage E-V13, which has been hypothesized to have experienced a Bronze-to-IronAge expansion in the Balkans and is found in its highest frequencies in the present-day Balkans17. We interpret this cluster as the descendants of local Balkan Iron Age populations living atViminacium, where they represented an abundant ancestry group during the Early Imperial andlater periods (~47% of sampled individuals from the 1-550 CE). Excavations of Iron Age Balkans prior to the Roman rule showed the dead where predominantly cremated 18, but this changed in Viminacium where inhumation became common suggesting a high degree ofRomanization of the local society. Viminacium necropoli followed a bi-ritual mortuary ritewhere some dead were buried, and some were cremated. During the 1st century until the firsthalf of the 3rd century cremations where more common, however this changed from the 3rdonwards when inhumations prevailed 19. We caution that if there was a systematic ancestrydifference between the population that buried and the one that burnt its dead, we would ofcourse be obtaining a biased representation of ancestry through ancient DNA analysis.


https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...211v1.full.pdf

So, who is the native population? Moesi/Triballi. Renowned Hungarian archaeologist Gabor Vekony believes that Iron Age Cultures like Psenicevo-Babadag and similar ones gave rise to these populations, and guess what, Early Iron Age Kapitan Andreevo classified as Early Hallstattian or Eastern Hallstattian spinoff(Psenicevo Culture) is full of E-V13 as well. The pattern is there. That's a straightforward fact. This is concerning this part of story, i do believe that if E-V13 was to be found in IA Croatia, it's in more inland part where Urnfielders reached, or even if it's earlier it's definitely the western variant of Vatin Culture which was anyway part of Balkan-Carpathian hemisphere but with strong Proto-Illyrian-like admixture.
 
You have a big mouth Gashjan. Careful how you address people constantly.

R1b is not 35% in Western Macedonia, it's E-V13 instead (and R1b is like 18%, J2b2 is like ~14%) based on peer reviewed scientific paper from North Macedonia 2020, which is far more reliable study due to very good sampling strategy (which is extremely important).

Northern Albania is not >40% J2b2-L283, it's Malsia e Gjakovas and again nobody can guarantee us how did the sampling strategy went in the sense of it needs to go through several pipelines and one of them is peer reviewing the strategy used, something which they lack. Good for sampling subclades, but not truly reliable for indicating and reflecting percentage.

Can you elaborate on the sampling strategy?
 

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