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Thread: Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    You have a big mouth Gashjan. Careful how you address people constantly.

    R1b is not 35% in Western Macedonia, it's E-V13 instead (and R1b is like 18%, J2b2 is like ~14%) based on peer reviewed scientific paper from North Macedonia 2020, which is far more reliable study due to very good sampling strategy (which is extremely important).

    Northern Albania is not >40% J2b2-L283, it's Malsia e Gjakovas and again nobody can guarantee us how did the sampling strategy went in the sense of it needs to go through several pipelines and one of them is peer reviewing the strategy used, something which they lack. Good for sampling subclades, but not truly reliable for indicating and reflecting percentage.
    Yes and no, since papers from such countries usually have a very small sample size. But I agree based on tribal affiliation and the general parental DNA picture of Maqedoni I expect E1b-V13 to be the majority in many subregions. Let’s not forget R1b-M269 is a broad terminology we could do the same and just say "E1b-Z1919“ or "J2b" and the number would, based on samples from certain regions, increase. But it is important to make the difference between R1b-Z2103 and R1b-PF7562 for instance (they also add other haplogroups under that term).

    Also, within a Qark or in this case Rajon (which they have chosen for their borders and statistics here) there is additively differences in percentages of parental lines going by Rrenjet/ Gjenetika data. In north West Shkodra around the Shkodra lake the J2b-L283 seems to increase further south it decreases. These are nuances that get lost with such broad designations of regions. Saying that generally J2b-L283 is more present in Northern Albanian and some other regions is generally a correct statement though.

    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Southern Kosove is sparsely tested. Look at it closer. What you’re seeing there as Southern Kosove are mostly targeted Bytyci and Thaçi-Zogaj samples.

    Exactly. These projects are focused on tribal affiliations since that is what our nation consists of. Hence why oversampling of one or two specific subclans is not going to give a reliable picture of the whole local population. It definitely can be the case that many subclans are very prominent in one region, e. g. us Krasniqi, or Kelmendi in Peja etc. but I know for a matter of fact that Prizren does also have a lot of different subclans and family names so that and the fact that it is a very very small sample size the statistics are bound to be not inclusive.

    These projects are also very biased and most of the people that live here don’t really know about population genetics and DNA testing at all. It is mostly people from the Diaspora and it is most of the time them who organize testing for their relatives living in Shqipni, Kosovë etc. The overall majority of the population does not have this information flow hence never get tested or get the chance to think about getting tested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    if this is correct .............and we definitely know from 30 years of archeological digs, that the Trojan war ( against Troy 6 ) was dated at 1085BC ................then the Daunians where in Italy before 1000BC as some have stated

    This also reflects the very old story that Dorians lived in modern south-albania ( north of the epirotes ) as they needed to be near the sea and have a fleet to attack the greek islands.......crete, rhodes etc etc
    The Iliad does not a historical document make. No archaeological evidence of a 10 year war against Troy. The favored date of that war is 1185 BCE BTW. The problem with the myth of course is that Greece and the Mycenaean/Achaean area were in steep decline by then. Now a raid by the Sea Peoples, yes. A protracted 10 year war, no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    The Iliad does not a historical document make. No archaeological evidence of a 10 year war against Troy. The favored date of that war is 1185 BCE BTW. The problem with the myth of course is that Greece and the Mycenaean/Achaean area were in steep decline by then. Now a raid by the Sea Peoples, yes. A protracted 10 year war, no.

    yes it was 1185 ......my error in saying 1085

    there is no chance it was a 10 year war..............more like a 10 month war ................the max populace for troy at that time was estimated between 6 and 8 thousand with an outer wooden walled fortress and a walled citadel.
    Supply/feeding of troops for the attackers was critical and can not be sustained over 10 years

    Even the longest siege in history ......22 year long siege of Venetian Candia against the ottomans only worked because Venice had control of the sea and could resupply the city in food and fresh troops
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    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Yes and no, since papers from such countries usually have a very small sample size. But I agree based on tribal affiliation and the general parental DNA picture of Maqedoni I expect E1b-V13 to be the majority in many subregions. Let’s not forget R1b-M269 is a broad terminology we could do the same and just say "E1b-Z1919“ or "J2b" and the number would, based on samples from certain regions, increase. But it is important to make the difference between R1b-Z2103 and R1b-PF7562 for instance (they also add other haplogroups under that term).

    Also, within a Qark or in this case Rajon (which they have chosen for their borders and statistics here) there is additively differences in percentages of parental lines going by Rrenjet/ Gjenetika data. In north West Shkodra around the Shkodra lake the J2b-L283 seems to increase further south it decreases. These are nuances that get lost with such broad designations of regions. Saying that generally J2b-L283 is more present in Northern Albanian and some other regions is generally a correct statement though.
    Yep, back in time everyone was convinced E-V13 in Kosove was largely from Berisha FGC33621 cluster, but to me it looks E-V13 L241 is slightly more common, and i attribute the FGC33621 equally from Berisha and Sopi muhajers. The Muhajeers were a lot Gash and Krasniq as well, after Sop. These three tribes were probably most common among them afaik, but i am not entirely sure on it. It's just the perception i got.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This is from the very text you took this screenshot from:

    "Based on archaeological artefacts one can get the picture of Celtic dominancy in productionand standardized industry. During 1st century B.C. at the Scordiscian setlements in the Danubianregion, finds of Thracian and Illyrian pottery should be expected.

    However, only Dacian ceramicswas found6. The feature of Dacian ware found at the Scordiscians setlements is that it wasnever wheel-thrown, while the usual Celtic gray potery was wheel-thrown.

    From the end of2nd, throughout 1st century B.C. and in 1st century A.D., Dacian pottery has been recorded at thewhole territory occupied by the Scordisci.

    On the other hand, the political situation indicatesthat the Celts were subordinated to the Dacians, but we cannot determine an exact mutualrelationship.Due to the Roman military pressure, it is likely that the Scordisci were probably not ableto keep the production at the same level. Therefore for everyday use, rough potery in domestictradition was produced, which corresponded to one of the population segments – the Daciancomponent7.

    However, it is also interesting that Dacianpottery was discovered on most of the siteson the Limes (Fig. 1). It can be found not onlyduring the mentioned period from 2nd centuryB.C. until 1st century A.D., but far into 3rdcentury when strong barbarian Dacia wasa long Romanized province8."

    The conclusion? Obvious strong Daco-Mysian presence in this region.
    What a surreal situation ain't it? A location like Western Balkans sticking mostly to inhumation archaeologically until the Urnfielders pushed just slightly to the northern borders bears almost no E-V13, magically happens that the Romans picked only the E-V13 dudes and relocated them in Thracian inhabited areas so they become dominant, then they play the game but it wasn't so much present. It wasn't like this but like that.

    I judge by intention, and the intentions are vile and self-serving not purely of passion or academic reasons.

    In archaeogenetics any increase of a certain haplogroup in a macro-region needs an archaeological explanation, credits should be given to Dienekes Pontikos on finding out that E-V13 had a Late Bronze Age expansion but his supposition was wrong, he thought it increased with the Greek colonizations. Maju, whom was a delight to read back then was supposing a Neolithic spread with Danubian Neolithics, both of them were right in their own way, it was a Late Bronze Age phenomena from a population likely descending from Danubian Neolithics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Yep, back in time everyone was convinced E-V13 in Kosove was largely from Berisha FGC33621 cluster, but to me it looks E-V13 L241 is slightly more common, and i attribute the FGC33621 equally from Berisha and Sopi muhajers. The Muhajeers were a lot Gash and Krasniq as well, after Sop. These three tribes were probably most common among them afaik, but i am not entirely sure on it. It's just the perception i got.
    With Muhaxherë you mean of descent from Rajoni Nishit etj. right? Most of the individuals with typical "muhaxher" surnames on Gjenetika and Rrenjet seem to be E1b-V13. I have never heard of genuine Krasniq that came from that soil. I know of Muhaxherë that adopted the Krasniqi surname and tribal affiliation for protection when moving southwest from Prokupë etc. but these had different origins. Most of the women immediately married men from here (these women are also part of my family line). Their impact on the overall demographics was huge, I'd argue. And yes those aren't just from Berisha but very importantly Sopi and as you said lots of Gash too actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    With Muhaxherë you mean of descent from Rajoni Nishit etj. right? Most of the individuals with typical "muhaxher" surnames on Gjenetika and Rrenjet seem to be E1b-V13. I have never heard of genuine Krasniq that came from that soil. I know of Muhaxherë that adopted the Krasniqi surname and tribal affiliation for protection when moving southwest from Prokupë etc. but these had different origins. Most of the women immediately married men from here (these women are also part of my family line). Their impact on the overall demographics was huge, I'd argue. And yes those aren't just from Berisha but very importantly Sopi and as you said lots of Gash too actually.
    I am not sure about Krasniqi, i have read somewhere they were present in Leskovac mixed with Sopi. I have heard about Krasniqi from Vranje, for instance the Gjinolli family from Gjilan whose origin is said to be from Vranje are either Krasniq, Berish or Sop in origin.

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    Although this is a linguistic thread this might still be interesting to us:

    I noticed today Sylvia Deskaj, an Albanian archeologist, in the references of the Southern Arc screenshot.


    "WCEE Lecture. Recounting Twenty Years of Archaeological Research in Albania and Kosovo: Apollonia, Theth, Shkodra, and Peja"

    https://events.umich.edu/event/48933


    "
    Michael Galaty and Sylvia Deskaj are archaeologists who have conducted research in Albania since the late 1990s. In this joint presentation they describe projects at Apollonia in central Albania, Shala in the Albanian Alps, and Shkodra in northern Albania. They also outline a new program of archaeological research, to begin this summer in Peja, Kosovo. The talk will be copiously illustrated, depicting the incredible beauty of Albania and Kosovo's fascinating archaeological sites and heritage."

    Imagine having all of these important human remains in your disposal and literally doing nothing for this long. Probably had the same anti genetics attitude as Nalbani and co.

    This article is from the Beginning of 2018. If they have sent human remains from Albanian archeological sites to Harvard and co., and we know they have, these sites might be where the rumored samples are from. Also, notice Peja, I really hope we will see in upcoming studies samples from BA-IA Kosovë and chances are not too low. I know of skeletons that rot in muzeu shtetnor somewhere so they better not lose track of those too.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I am not sure about Krasniqi, i have read somewhere they were present in Leskovac mixed with Sopi. I have heard about Krasniqi from Vranje, for instance the Gjinolli family from Gjilan whose origin is said to be from Vranje are either Krasniq, Berish or Sop in origin.
    Interesting, never heard of them. Thanks for sharing.

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    @Johane Derite

    The Mysians of Homer lived in Anatolia and the Thracian are the ones of the Dardanelles on the other side of the strait. Homer mentions nothing about any Mysians in the Balkans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysian..._community.jpg

    In a few hours we'll get hundreds of samples from Anatolia, let's count E-V13 or ... its lack.

    In Viminacium, there were Celts and Illyrians who lived and were buried in the site. Items like pottery are irrelevant for what we're discussing. We'll see who the Dacians and Thracians were tomorrow, don't worry about that.

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    Gjinolli were not muhaxher. They identified as Krasniq and according to their tradition they hail from Malesi. In Kosove however they came via Lume.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    @Johane Derite

    The Mysians of Homer lived in Anatolia and the Thracian are the ones of the Dardanelles on the other side of the strait. Homer mentions nothing about any Mysians in the Balkans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysian..._community.jpg

    In a few hours we'll get hundreds of samples from Anatolia, let's count E-V13 or ... its lack.

    In Viminacium, there were Celts and Illyrians who lived and were buried in the site. Items like pottery are irrelevant for what we're discussing. We'll see who the Dacians and Thracians were tomorrow, don't worry about that.
    I provided the exact quote from the iliad where mysians are mentioned as being in the balkans. Homer mentions them in the balkans and in anatolia. Homer mentions paeonians also in troy fighting alongside trojans, aswell as their homeland in the balkans.

    I welcome all samples. More the merrier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Gjinolli were not muhaxher. They identified as Krasniq and according to their tradition they hail from Malesi. In Kosove however they came via Lume.
    All of muhaxhers more or less came from Malesi. But Gjinolli came from Vranje afaik (i am not saying they were literally Muhaxhers and came during their timeline, but from what i have read they came in Gjilan from the North, prior to that for sure they came from Malesi like everyone else). It's not sure what they were, someone says Krasniq (according to one inscription from the Gjinoll Pasha of Vranje, and this is from where the Krasniqi theory comes), some others say they came from Depce, and usually people from Depce are Berish. But, Gjinaj was somewhat of a common surname used by Sopis in Nish/Toplic. Though, either Krasniq or eventually Berish is the more convincing theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I provided the exact quote from the iliad where mysians are mentioned as being in the balkans. Homer mentions them in the balkans and in anatolia. Homer mentions paeonians also in troy fighting alongside trojans, aswell as their homeland in the balkans.
    I welcome all samples. More the merrier.
    Early Bronze Age Bulgarian samples will be revealed, the ones already leaked by Stamov 2 years ago, Neolithic-Chalcolithic Bulgaria G2a, and EBA Bulgaria with R1b, I2a and 1 J2a. And this will be claimed as Thracian by them.

    As for Anatolia, West/North Anatolia after Bronze-Iron Age transition is more than welcome, and Iron-Classical Age Bulgaria, Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    There is a huge difference between 28% and 47%, it is a very big deal. The pre-Roman people in the site of Viminacium are Celts and Illyrians, many others settled there after the city's foundation. 1/3 E-V13 is a reasonable percentage that we'll find in many areas of the Balkans, but it doesn't imply anything more than the fact that even in a huge multi-ethnic city a good part of the population where natives of the Balkans. E-V13 decreases north of Viminacium, but it probably remains the same in Dardania.

    Exactly what I said: the Moesi didn't exist. Homer doesn't mention any Balkan Mysians. The Mysians of Homer are a west Anatolian people who had nothing in common with the Balkans. Their name was transplanted in the Balkans by the Romans.

    DILYANA BOTEVA
    Society and Myths: How was the Name of Moesia Invented?
    https://www.academia.edu/48895776

    The strict chronological synopsis of the contemporary information (Table 1) could, in my opinion, help find a plausible solution as it shows not only when the name of the Mysians/Moesians appeared in the region. Thanks to this synopsis it becomes also evident that a local ethnonym surprisingly disappeared despite being widely popular in the ancient writings (including those reporting the military operations of the provincial governors of Macedonia during the first half of the 1st century BC and shortly after the mid-1st century BC). I am speaking about the Dardani, whose name has gone through a dramatic metamorphosis in the Roman literature: up to the mid-1st century BC they are known mostly as antagonists of the Roman army (Table 1, nos. 3, 4, 8.4 and 8.5).

    At a certain point the ethnonym of the Dardani vanished from the contemporary literature of the late 1st century BC. After a short hiatus it re-appeared in the texts of Roman intellectuals as a synonym for Trojans and accordingly as an element of the Roman genealogy which starts with the Trojan Aeneas.

    Rome’s unwillingness to speak about the Balkan Dardani as Roman enemies is attested for the time postdating 19 BC (but most probably actually predating 19 BC by several years), needed an adequate substitute for the politically unfitting ethnonym.

    In this context it is necessary to try to find out who and when substituted the troubled ethnonym of the Balkan Dardani with the Mysi/Moesi.

    The decision — made almost certainly by Tiberius, — to label the lands of the Balkan Dardani with the name Mysia/Moesia could be explained by the fact that the legendary Dardani were connected with Troas in Mysia in Asia Minor which was part of the eastern territories ruled or dominated by Rome; the same was true also for the Balkan Dardani who occupied lands lying relatively close to Asia Minor.

    The decision — made almost certainly by Tiberius, — to label the lands of the Balkan Dardani with the name Mysia/Moesia could be explained by the fact that the legendary Dardani were connected with Troas in Mysia in Asia Minor which was part of the eastern territories ruled or dominated by Rome; the same was true also for the Balkan Dardani who occupied lands lying relatively close to Asia Minor.

    To summarize: A strict chronological synopsis of the contemporary information indicates that the name Moesia appeared most probably as a result of the myths, advertised persistently within the Roman society under Augustus. The need to choose an acceptable name for the region in question was actually faced by Tiberius, who had to find out how to cover the politically incorrect ethnonym of the Dardani, who were both a traditional enemy of the Roman governors of Macedonia in the Balkan Danubian region, but also considered to be identical with the Trojans, the Roman predecessors in Asia Minor. Thus, emperor Tiberius introduced on the Balkans a toponym from northwestern Asia Minor, Mysia/Moesia, first attested in the Lower Danubian lands only in early AD 16. Accordingly, the initial territory of the province of Moesia covered the lands of the Balkan Dardani and the adjacent region to the north as far as the Danube.
    Telephus was noted as leader of Mysia and is said to be born in Dardania .....................but that's all Homer story, which could be a combination of many stories that he made into one...the Iliad............Mysia was not in the Troad ( lands of Troy ), it was to the East of this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    All of muhaxhers more or less came from Malesi. But Gjinolli came from Vranje afaik (i am not saying they were literally Muhaxhers and came during their timeline, but from what i have read they came in Gjilan from the North, prior to that for sure they came from Malesi like everyone else). It's not sure what they were, someone says Krasniq (according to one inscription from the Gjinoll Pasha of Vranje, and this is from where the Krasniqi theory comes), some others say they came from Depce, and usually people from Depce are Berish. But, Gjinaj was somewhat of a common surname used by Sopis in Nish/Toplic. Though, either Krasniq or eventually Berish is the more convincing theory.
    Their realm extended all the way up there so not surprised that some of them lived there. However the branch of the family that ruled part of Kosove didn’t come from Vranje, they lived in Prishtine, Vushtrri and Gjilan. The tradition I brought was recorded by Uroshevic. They still live in Gjilan and fis wise identify as Krasniq, which I have confirmed a while ago.

    There are other fringe theories out there developed in in recent years. You hear all sorts of things now days. Iljaz Rexha for example theorizes that they hail from the Gjini family that were recorded in Novoberd during Middle Ages lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Their realm extended all the way up there so not surprised that some of them lived there. However the branch of the family that ruled part of Kosove didn’t come from Vranje, they lived in Prishtine, Vushtrri and Gjilan. The tradition I brought was recorded by Uroshevic. They still live in Gjilan and fis wise identify as Krasniq, which I have confirmed a while ago.

    There are other fringe theories out there developed in in recent years. You hear all sorts of things now days. Iljaz Rexha for example theorizes that they hail from the Gjini family that were recorded in Novoberd during Middle Ages lol.
    I cannot confirm or disprove. But as i said, it's a bit confusing on that part.

    Their dominion was spread up in Vranje perhaps on its latter stages, because Abdul Kerim Pasha who was a Sop was the ruler of Vranje. Huseyn Pasha Gjinolli got into trouble with AbdulKerim descendands who were living in Tabanovc years latter, hiring people to murder one of the Pasha of Tabanovc. When the Pasha of Tabanovc realized about the plot he went to his palace to kill him and ended up wounding him and himself beheaded by his bodyguard. Huseyn Pasha escaped in Vranje to hide after the incident, so it looks he had strong connections there.

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    There was an earlier wave of Muhaxhirs (1830s-1850s) from the Sanjak of Smederevo whom were expelled by Milos Obrenovic, a good part settled in the Nish area.

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    There is a dissertation more in-depth about the Muslims of Smederevo, a sizeable portion being Albanians.

    https://unipub.uni-graz.at/obvugrhs/...83278/full.pdf

    https://www.academia.edu/28801151/%D...1%83_1815_1834

    This source has some interesting accounts.

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    First time reading about Smederevo, that's quite north. Would never guess that some of Muhaxhers were from there.

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    So is the Southern Arc paper supposed to come out tomorrow, or Friday the 26th?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    First time reading about Smederevo, that's quite north. Would never guess that some of Muhaxhers were from there.
    Me neither albeit something along Albanians north of Nish I did hear about but not about specifics. I mean I also have some ancestry from Albanians from Kotorr. There were also a bunch from that area that left for Kosovë and other places.

    These groups of people should generally get more attention.

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    Posts
    687

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b-L283>Y52453
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c7a

    Country: Kosovo



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Early Bronze Age Bulgarian samples will be revealed, the ones already leaked by Stamov 2 years ago, Neolithic-Chalcolithic Bulgaria G2a, and EBA Bulgaria with R1b, I2a and 1 J2a. And this will be claimed as Thracian by them.

    As for Anatolia, West/North Anatolia after Bronze-Iron Age transition is more than welcome, and Iron-Classical Age Bulgaria, Greece.
    From what I can make of the rumors and what my gut feeling is telling me in the Balkans and further north they mostly tested sites from where we know that there is a lot of R1b-Z2103 (from Vucedol Slavonia to Bulgaria etc.) which is not really surprising since they have targeted early Yamnaya dispersals. That is their main interest. And they have also targeted a lot of TC BA culture sites and TC IA Celtic sites and these will mostly be R-L2 or 51+. We will essentially see how wide spread TC Celts perhaps were in that area. And we will also probably see Pannonian Neolithic like samples spread all over the area even in the Bronze Age and stuff like that. The overall sample size from the Balkans will not be too high however.

    Not really thrilled about this one but too would be glad to see more IA East Adriatic samples and BA Dinaric samples since those are more of interest to me.

  24. #2324
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    1,811


    Country: Austria



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Early Bronze Age Bulgarian samples will be revealed, the ones already leaked by Stamov 2 years ago, Neolithic-Chalcolithic Bulgaria G2a, and EBA Bulgaria with R1b, I2a and 1 J2a. And this will be claimed as Thracian by them.

    As for Anatolia, West/North Anatolia after Bronze-Iron Age transition is more than welcome, and Iron-Classical Age Bulgaria, Greece.
    Are they holding the Kapitan Andreevo samples back?

  25. #2325
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,853

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Are they holding the Kapitan Andreevo samples back?
    In one of them likely. Probably they separated the papers by chronology to summarize/deduce by context.

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