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  1. #1
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    Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]




    Saw this video, found it to be a good intro to some basics.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Great video

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    So basically the Albanian language came from this area


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gash View Post
    So basically the Albanian language came from this area

    Yep. They should have also mentioned the Albanian - Messapic relations since that evidences the necessity of western balkans.

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    What there should be mention is great many words of Romanian substrate are shared with Albanian.
    Common Lexic in Romanian and Albanian. Substrate and Loanwords.

    http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Comm..._and_Loanwords

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    What there should be mention is great many words of Romanian substrate are shared with Albanian.
    Common Lexic in Romanian and Albanian. Substrate and Loanwords.

    http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Comm..._and_Loanwords

    That would be pointless because we do not know where those words were spoken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    What there should be mention is great many words of Romanian substrate are shared with Albanian.
    Common Lexic in Romanian and Albanian. Substrate and Loanwords.

    http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Comm..._and_Loanwords

    It doesn't affect the argument as to where albanian must have been since Vlore < Aulona Albanian accent rule since antiquity
    is de-fact confirmation of Albanians in south west. Likewise the messapic relation as well as the laconian folk vocabulary in 7th
    Century BC having Albanian loanwords.

    Laconia is as south greece as it gets, but since laconians were dorian spartans, we can say that they must have gotten the loanwords from Albanians in epirus, rather than Albanians having been in Laconia, although who knows maybe that too is the case.

    There is near 100% concensus that the Albanian romanian substrate is either

    a) Signs that Romanians/Vlachs spoke Albanian before being romanised
    or
    b) Romanians/Vlachs lived on a direct border to Albanians and got many loanwords from Albanian.

    Personally, I think its a mix of both, since Vlachs/Aromanians/Romanians are a heterogenous ethnicity that arose due to the Roman Empire.

    Just think the Arvanites, Bulgarians, Vlachs that identified as greek fully after the revolution. They each would have added some words to the Greek language
    and share a "substrate" with each respective language. For example Neo-Greek has the word Vlames used for "comrade/blood brother" , which is loan word from Alb. Vëlla (Brother). You wouldn't use this to argue that Greek and Albanian have a substrate and Albanian ethnogenesis must have happened in Greece.

    So Vlachs/Aromanians/Romanians are a heterogenous ethinicty that represent Illyrians, Dardanians, Macedonians, and Dacians that became Romanised.


    This article you shared by Dan Ungereanu isn't wrong in the words it lists as being shared, but its obvious that its some nativist nationalist that he lists
    every single shared word as Dacian as if we have a way of knowing that.

    I personally called him out on this in a public group of professionals and he admitted he was wrong for listing all the shared words as Dacian:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    It doesn't affect the argument as to where albanian must have been since Vlore < Aulona Albanian accent rule since antiquity
    is de-fact confirmation of Albanians in south west. Likewise the messapic relation as well as the laconian folk vocabulary in 7th
    Century BC having Albanian loanwords.

    Laconia is as south greece as it gets, but since laconians were dorian spartans, we can say that they must have gotten the loanwords from Albanians in epirus, rather than Albanians having been in Laconia, although who knows maybe that too is the case.

    There is near 100% concensus that the Albanian romanian substrate is either

    a) Signs that Romanians/Vlachs spoke Albanian before being romanised
    or
    b) Romanians/Vlachs lived on a direct border to Albanians and got many loanwords from Albanian.

    Personally, I think its a mix of both, since Vlachs/Aromanians/Romanians are a heterogenous ethnicity that arose due to the Roman Empire.

    Just think the Arvanites, Bulgarians, Vlachs that identified as greek fully after the revolution. They each would have added some words to the Greek language
    and share a "substrate" with each respective language. For example Neo-Greek has the word Vlames used for "comrade/blood brother" , which is loan word from Alb. Vëlla (Brother). You wouldn't use this to argue that Greek and Albanian have a substrate and Albanian ethnogenesis must have happened in Greece.

    So Vlachs/Aromanians/Romanians are a heterogenous ethinicty that represent Illyrians, Dardanians, Macedonians, and Dacians that became Romanised.


    This article you shared by Dan Ungereanu isn't wrong in the words it lists as being shared, but its obvious that its some nativist nationalist that he lists
    every single shared word as Dacian as if we have a way of knowing that.

    I personally called him out on this in a public group of professionals and he admitted he was wrong for listing all the shared words as Dacian:

    My point is not that this words are Dacian,neither i care for his opinion but there in the paper is Orel's dictionary which is cited by him about common lexic between Romanian and Albanian which I guess should be adressed.

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    Romanian/Albanian relationship

    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    My point is not that this words are Dacian,neither i care for his opinion but there in the paper is Orel's dictionary which is cited by him about common lexic between Romanian and Albanian which I guess should be adressed.
    I can't understand why so much emphasis on supposed common Albanian/Romanian words. A well known Italian linguist has maintained that there are 40 common words, and he can't really tell if these words were given or borrowed. I have to find the name of the famous linguist and will report.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    What there should be mention is great many words of Romanian substrate are shared with Albanian.
    Common Lexic in Romanian and Albanian. Substrate and Loanwords.

    http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Comm..._and_Loanwords
    I think you need to research ancient romanian language before they changed to Latin based ..........what did they speak before the Romans arrived
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I think you need to research ancient romanian language before they changed to Latin based ..........what did they speak before the Romans arrived
    Oh can you tell us what they spoke before Romans came?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post



    Saw this video, found it to be a good intro to some basics.
    Interesting video. Thanks for sharing with us Johane.

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    This map, with some corrections, is almost identical to the map of the territories inhabited by the Albanians until the last quarter of the nineteenth century when these territories, first with the Treaty of Santo Stefano and then with the Congress of Berlin were divided among our neighbors by Great European Powers including also the Ottoman empire that practically sold these territories.
    The Albanians have always lived in the same territory.

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    How much do you agree the language tree map in the video?

    Is it like this? Clear European-Indo Aryan Branches
    https://www.listenandlearnusa.com/bl...old-languages/

    or like this
    http://www.sci-news.com/otherscience...ppe-02516.html

    In the last link, it says Anatolian and Balkanic languages become seperated branches before real Indo/Aryan & Europe division

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    Wow, so you're saying that Albanian comes from Albania? Makes sense to me. I would place the core genesis in the northern half of the blue-shaded area, as Albanian appears to have more Latin influence than Greek and therefore would have been more likely to originate north of the Jirecek line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Wow, so you're saying that Albanian comes from Albania? Makes sense to me. I would place the core genesis in the northern half of the blue-shaded area, as Albanian appears to have more Latin influence than Greek and therefore would have been more likely to originate north of the Jirecek line.
    First I would like to invite you and others to make a distinction between a hypothesis and a historical fact.
    For example:
    Jireček Line
    The Jireček Line is a conceptual boundary through the ancient Balkans that divides the influence of the Latin (in the north) and Greek (in the south) languages in the Roman Empire from Antiquity until the 4th century. It goes from near the city of Laçi in modern Albania to Serdica (now Sofia, in Bulgaria) and then follows the Balkan Mountains to Odessus (Varna) on the Black Sea. However, the proposed line is a theoretical tool only, and Latinized groups live south of the line, such as the Aromanians, Meglenites, Cutzovlachs (Greek: Βλαχοι), and Moscopolitans. Even so, it is a useful — although approximate — instrument for determining which influence a certain area was predominantly exposed to. The placement of the line is based on archaeological findings: most of the inscriptions found to the north of it are written in Latin, and most of the inscriptions found to the south of it are in Greek.
    This line is important in establishing the area where the Romanian and Vlach people formed (see origin of the Romanians).
    It was originally used by Czech historian Konstantin Jireček in 1911 in a history of the Slavic people.
    More recent scholars have revised it somewhat: Kaimio (1979) places Dalmatia and Moesia Superior in the Latin area and Moesia Inferior in the Greek sphere. MacLeod (1982) suggests that there may not have been "an official language policy for each and every aspect of life" but that "individual Roman officials [made] common sense ad hoc decisions". He also points out that while the area was under Roman rule, "even in Greek areas... Latin was the dominant language in inscriptions recording public works, on milestones, and in the army".
    So, the Jirecek line is an hypothesis. Part of the Albanians including me personally live today in the South of this line, this is an historical fact.
    About the influence of the Greek and Latin. There are different reason why Latin have more influence than Greek.
    At the first reason reason you can arrive using simply the logic. In Albanian language are preserved around 36 words borrowed from Doric Greek. Some scholars suggest that the number must be higher and we must investigate more in this direction, but this is another matter. Before the Roman invasion of Illyria this number was higher. When Albanian language borrowed words from Latin, these words replaced the words of the host language, in this case the Albanian, or have continued to function as synonyms. But when these Latin words have replaced the words of the Albanian language, these words also replaced a part of the Greek words that were already present in the Albanian language. Then later, a similar process was repeated with other invasions of Albania from other Empires and civilizations.
    The second reason is in the difference between what the Greeks and Romans represented. The Greeks were an important civilization of the past. But they were located mostly in the coastal colonies in the western part of Albania and did not had the power of the Roman Empire that penetrated in a capillary way almost in every corner of their empire, because they had something more from the Greeks, the army.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    First I would like to invite you and others to make a distinction between a hypothesis and a historical fact.
    For example:
    Jireček Line

    So, the Jirecek line is an hypothesis. Part of the Albanians including me personally live today in the South of this line, this is an historical fact.
    About the influence of the Greek and Latin. There are different reason why Latin have more influence than Greek.
    At the first reason reason you can arrive using simply the logic. In Albanian language are preserved around 36 words borrowed from Doric Greek. Some scholars suggest that the number must be higher and we must investigate more in this direction, but this is another matter. Before the Roman invasion of Illyria this number was higher. When Albanian language borrowed words from Latin, these words replaced the words of the host language, in this case the Albanian, or have continued to function as synonyms. But when these Latin words have replaced the words of the Albanian language, these words also replaced a part of the Greek words that were already present in the Albanian language. Then later, a similar process was repeated with other invasions of Albania from other Empires and civilizations.
    The second reason is in the difference between what the Greeks and Romans represented. The Greeks were an important civilization of the past. But they were located mostly in the coastal colonies in the western part of Albania and did not had the power of the Roman Empire that penetrated in a capillary way almost in every corner of their empire, because they had something more from the Greeks, the army.

    Oh Really,

    In Italy there was a city named Ravena,
    a historian mentions that there the Roman Legions THAT SPOKE GREEK,
    So The possibility to eliminate Greek, at Roman Empire is tottaly out of Question

    The Sirmium and Naissos, Nis

    Sirmium is consider the center of Division among Latin and Greek,
    Yet archaiology has proved that Greek were spoken among Roman Legions at Sirmium
    SOmething that was against Diocletianus division to Romania and Romylia,
    Latin Speaking and Greek speaking.

    so What MacLeod's proposal has a basis on definition of Jirecec Line,
    Archaiology proves that,
    THEY FOUND HUNDRENDS OF GREEK CURSES AND OTHER NORTH OF JIRESEC LINE
    NORTH OF SIRMIUM


    Now FROM HISTORIA
    LAGOBARDORUM

    Alboin electam e suis manum direxit, qui Romanis adversus Getassuffragium ferrent. Qui per maris Adriatici sinum in. Italiam transvecti, sociati Romanis pugnam inierunt cum Gothis; quibus usque ad internicionem pariter cum Totila suo rege deletis, honorati multis muneribus victores ad propria remearunt. Omnique tempore quo Langobardi Pannoniam possederunt, Romanae rei publicae adversus aemulos adiutores fuerunt.

    WHAT
    WHAT GREEKS IN THE HEART OF ROMAN EMPIRE? IN RAVENA (today Romagna)


    Tiberius igitur Constantinus postquam imperium septem rexerat annis, sentiens sibi diem mortis imminere, una cum consilio Sophiae Augustae
    .....
    adclamatisque sibi laudibus, largita populo munera, primus
    ex Grecorum genere in imperio confirmatus est.
    .......
    quendam Greculum
    ........
    Quod cernens Grecorum exercitus, ..... et Romano populo
    !!!!!!.......

    Ι Think it obvious that in Roman Empire,
    Greek language did not vanished,
    BUT MAYBE IT WAS LINGUA FRANCA IN SOME ROMAN LEGIONS
    As also Jiresec Line is an indicator
    from Diocletianus division to primary Latin Speaking areas and to primary Greek Speaking areas
    Diocletianos divided the army and the empire to 2 speaking areas,



    IN FACT THE CITY NEVIODUNUM MIGHT BE A FULL GREEK CITY ABOVE JIRESEC LINE.
    ALL THE ARCHAIOLOGICAL FINDINGS SHOW CLEAR A FULL GREEK, OR PRIMARY A GREEK SPEAKING CITY, ABOVE JIRESEC LINE.

    from the times of Floris Romer the Greek findings in Pannonia are not measured anymore,
    Yet is not considered a Greek preferacture of Roman empire,
    and it is logical, I think


    Mocsy and Barkoscy studied a lot the Greek existance in Pannonia above Jiresek line
    While Kovacs estimates at least 10% of Sirmium were Greek
    which raises by the Surus (Greeks from East, mainly Syrria) to bigger ratio
    The lowest ratio is in Dacia estimated 2%


    that is why Jiresec line is an indicator line, and not a frontier line
    Last edited by Yetos; 11-01-19 at 00:55.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Oh Really,

    In Italy there was a city named Ravena,
    a historian mentions that there the Roman Legions THAT SPOKE GREEK,
    So The possibility to eliminate Greek, at Roman Empire is tottaly out of Question

    The Sirmium

    Sirmium is consider the center of Division among Latin and Greek,
    Yet archaiology has proved that Greek were spoken among Roman Legions at Sirmium
    SOmething that was against Diocletianus division to Romania and Romylia,
    Latin Speaking and Greek speaking.

    so What MacLeod's proposal has a basis on definition of Jirecec Line,
    Archaiology proves that,
    THEY FOUND HUNDRENDS OF GREEK CURSES AND OTHER NORTH OF JIRESEC LINE
    NORTH OF SIRMIUM
    In the thread about Paleo Balcanic languages i learned that you are a user with more than one account. This is the last time that i answer to you. Stop quoting me.

    I appeal to the moderators of this forum. Is it possible to guarantee a normal discussion in this forum? This member who currently uses one of his accounts with the nickname Yetos, regularly destroys any discussion. This is a thread on the Albanian language. Of course everyone is free to participate in this discussion, but the intention of this individual is anything but a normal discussion. But I do not want this thread to be closed because this is the intention of this irresponsible individual. The first post of this individual in this thread is a perfect example of his intention.
    I appeal to the Albanian members and to all members who are interested to partecipate in the discussion here, to ignore the presence of this individual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    In the thread about Paleo Balcanic languages i learned that you are a user with more than one account. This is the last time that i answer to you. Stop quoting me.

    I appeal to the moderators of this forum. Is it possible to guarantee a normal discussion in this forum? This member who currently uses one of his accounts with the nickname Yetos, regularly destroys any discussion. This is a thread on the Albanian language. Of course everyone is free to participate in this discussion, but the intention of this individual is anything but a normal discussion. But I do not want this thread to be closed because this is the intention of this irresponsible individual. The first post of this individual in this thread is a perfect example of his intention.
    I appeal to the Albanian members and to all members who are interested to partecipate in the discussion here, to ignore the presence of this individual.

    I discuss,

    I read your posts,
    and I answer,

    Isn't this DISCUSSION?

    YOU WANT TO MAKE A MONOLOGUE?

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    Interesting list of similar words!

    There is some lack of verbs in the list but besides the meaning of Easter, paște in Romanian is also used as a verb, referring to horses, sheep, donkeys when eat, replacing the verb to feed.

    I am curious how much is understood in Albanian of what I write now in Romanian:

    Ia vino bre ! Un măgar paște lăstari pe baltă.

    Variants:

    Ia vin bre ! Un măgar paște muguri pe baltă.

    Iete măre ! Un măgar paște muguri pe baltă in amurg.

    Iete bre ! Un măgar paște muguri in brădet.
    Last edited by gidai; 11-01-19 at 10:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    Interesting list of similar words!

    There is some lack of verbs in the list but besides the meaning of Easter, paște in Romanian is also used as a verb, referring to horses, sheep, donkeys when eat, replacing the verb to feed.
    I am curious how much is understood in Albanian of what I write now in Romanian:

    Ia vino bre ! Un măgar paște lăstari pe baltă.

    Variants:

    Ia vin bre ! Un măgar paște muguri pe baltă.

    Iete măre ! Un măgar paște muguri pe baltă in amurg.

    Iete bre ! Un măgar paște muguri in brădet.
    If not their meaning, not even a word?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    Interesting list of similar words!

    There is some lack of verbs in the list but besides the meaning of Easter, paște in Romanian is also used as a verb, referring to horses, sheep, donkeys when eat, replacing the verb to feed.

    I am curious how much is understood in Albanian of what I write now in Romanian:

    Ia vino bre ! Un măgar paște lăstari pe baltă.

    Variants:

    Ia vin bre ! Un măgar paște muguri pe baltă.

    Iete măre ! Un măgar paște muguri pe baltă in amurg.

    Iete bre ! Un măgar paște muguri in brădet.
    Come bre/more! A donkey paste (you said eat) lastari in the mud.

    Magar is used for donkey in Kosovo and the surrounding areas whereas in Albania we say gomar and very few near the border with Kosovo magjar (kind of like madzhiar).

    In Kosovo it would be smth like: Eja bre/more! Ni magar po han .... n'balt.

    amurg = muzg (I used google translator)

    Vin I understood from Italian although we used "vin" in "ata po vin" - they are coming, or ai po vjen - he is coming.

    So in reality I only understood magar and balta.

    While translating your text, I discovered that lastari in Italian is germoglio, which as per wikipedia its the unearthed bud/sprout. In Albanian germoj means 'dig' (to dig the earth) and again by coincidence to unearth in Romanian is apparently ingropat, whereas gropa in Albanian means pit/whole. Although grob in South Slavic and West Slavic means tomb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Come bre/more! A donkey paste (you said eat) lastari in the mud.
    Magar is used for donkey in Kosovo and the surrounding areas whereas in Albania we say gomar and very few near the border with Kosovo magjar (kind of like madzhiar).
    In Kosovo it would be smth like: Eja bre/more! Ni magar po han .... n'balt.
    amurg = muzg (I used google translator)
    Vin I understood from Italian although we used "vin" in "ata po vin" - they are coming, or ai po vjen - he is coming.
    So in reality I only understood magar and balta.
    While translating your text, I discovered that lastari in Italian is germoglio, which as per wikipedia its the unearthed bud/sprout. In Albanian germoj means 'dig' (to dig the earth) and again by coincidence to unearth in Romanian is apparently ingropat, whereas gropa in Albanian means pit/whole. Although grob in South Slavic and West Slavic means tomb.
    coming in italian is not vin
    vin is wine from the word vino

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Come bre/more! A donkey paste (you said eat) lastari in the mud.

    Magar is used for donkey in Kosovo and the surrounding areas whereas in Albania we say gomar and very few near the border with Kosovo magjar (kind of like madzhiar).

    In Kosovo it would be smth like: Eja bre/more! Ni magar po han .... n'balt.

    amurg = muzg (I used google translator)

    Vin I understood from Italian although we used "vin" in "ata po vin" - they are coming, or ai po vjen - he is coming.

    So in reality I only understood magar and balta.

    While translating your text, I discovered that lastari in Italian is germoglio, which as per wikipedia its the unearthed bud/sprout. In Albanian germoj means 'dig' (to dig the earth) and again by coincidence to unearth in Romanian is apparently ingropat, whereas gropa in Albanian means pit/whole. Although grob in South Slavic and West Slavic means tomb.
    You understand very wel the words. Thank you very much!

    Ia vino bre ! and Ia vin bre ! Come on man(boy)!
    Un măgar paște lăstari pe baltă. A donkey eats shoots(buds) on the pond(mud/small dirty lake).
    Iete bre/măre! Look, man!
    amurg is endeed twilight, or muzg in Albanian.
    brădet firs or forest with fir trees

  25. #25
    Regular Member Gannicus's Avatar
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    @gidai
    very good analysis, i personally didn't see with my inexpert eye so much, thank you for paraphrasing it for the sake of the thread.

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