Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[ihype02]

Check Maciamo's tables for specific numbers by region.
The issue here is this is not an Albanian-specific thing. All the Balkans/southern Europe became EV13-heavy during the times of the Roman Empire. There was no EV13 in ancient Italy/Greece, then it becomes frequent on the range of 15-20%, where in places like Albania, Montenegro, Romania, Bulgaria, parts of Greece it goes >20/30%.
It's ok though. Recognizing patterns is what IQ is for. Not much of that with some of you.
You realize every Y-DNA literally starts with 1 guy? How the hell do you think it goes from 1 guy to millions?
Seriously, do you know anything about genetics?

Yes I have seen Maciamo years ago and I know the percentages well.
E-V13 became a main line in Albania after or during the 10th century. Right when Arbanasi appears in historical documents. What a coincidence.
As for E-V13 in Southwest Slavs how do know that this line was not picked by pagans Slavs before comming to Illyria and later it got an increase with some assimilated Albanians in Montenegro?

 

[ihype02]

This is the position of Bruzmi also, that it is a very minor lineage which had a founder effect in the roman era.
I think his hypothesis is a forced one just to muddy the water and distract from focus, i.e. damage control about the ev13s in thrace, the absence of ev13s in the west, etc.
Lets not forget that their side is also outright making things up, like saying Brnjica culture doesn't exist, etc (imagine if I was saying that Glasinac-Mati culture didn't exist to try push my arguments, the difference in ethics here is absurd, but they don't care as long as it keeps the circlejerk undisturbed).

Bruzmi supported a West Balkan origin of E-V13 and not a founder effect. Now he switched because bringing a rational explanation would led him into unpleasant conclusions.

 

[ihype02]

And stop with your lame ironies, because I literally pinpointed you to Rrenjet saying in some major cities 10% of all lineages go down to 1 Berisha that lived 500 years ago. It's not my fault your brain can't process basic information.
"[FONT=&quot]Rezultatet nga fisi Berishë i takojnë kryesisht degëzimit [/FONT]E-Y93102>Y91573[FONT=&quot], paraardhësi i të cilës vlerësohet të ketë jetuar para rreth 500 vitesh... [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sidoqoftë, paraardhësi i përbashkët i gjithë këtyre rezultateve që përmendëm ka qenë sigurisht diku në pjesën veriore të trojeve shqiptare gjatë Mesjetës. Sot përbën rreth 2-3% të gjithë linjave atërore shqiptare, por në Pukë, Tropojë, Kosovë e Luginë të Preshevës mbërrin deri në 10%, kurse në krahinat e tjera shqiptare është nën 1%"[/FONT]

What you said about E-V13 can also be said about R1b and J2b. This does not make R1b and J2b Ottoman era founder effects.
This has more to do with population boost after the 15th century rather than a founder effect during the Ottoman era.

 

[Illyria]

Yes I have seen Maciamo years ago and I know the percentages well.
E-V13 became a main line in Albania after or during the 10th century. Right when Arbanasi appears in historical documents. What a coincidence.
As for E-V13 in Southwest Slavs how do know that this line was not picked by pagans Slavs before comming to Illyria and later it got an increase with some assimilated Albanians in Montenegro?

Arbanasi mentioned for the first time in the 10th century? Nope, Albanoi was mentioned in the Mat-Mirdite region of Albania since 150AD. Also we have inscriptions in Shkup, Shtip, and Finiq of people hailing from this region, long before the 10th century, and one of the inscriptions is dated to the 2nd/3rd century BC. The Illyrian tribe Abri, which was located at the Fan river valleys, has also been linked to the Albanoi. Zgerdhesh is likely the ancient city of Albanopolis

​In the archaeological record, the Albanoi and Albanopolis have been directly attested on two funeral inscriptions. The toponym Albanopolis has been found on a funeral inscription in Gorno Sonje, near the city of Skopje (ancient Scupi), present-day North Macedonia.^[14] It was excavated in 1931 by Nikola Vulić and its text was curated and published in 1982 by Borka Dragojević-Josifovska. The inscription in Latin reads "POSIS MESTYLU F[ILIUS] FL[AVIA] DELVS MVCATI F[ILIA] DOM[O] ALBANOP[OLI] IPSA DELVS" ("Posis Mestylu, son of Flavia Delus, daughter of Mucat, who comes from Albanopolis"). It dates to the end of the 1st century CE and the beginning of the 2nd century CE.

The ethnonym Albanos was found on a funeral inscription from ancient Stobi, near Gradsko about 90 km to the southeast of Gorno Sonje. The inscription in ancient Greek reads "ΦΛ(ΑΒΙΩ) ΑΛΒΑΝΩ ΤΩ ΤΕΚΝΩ ΑΙΜΙΛΙΑΝΟΣ ΑΛΒΑΝΟ(Σ) ΜΝΗΜ(Η)Σ [ΧΑΡΗΝ]" ("In memory of Flavios Albanos, his son Aemilianos Albanos"). It dates to the 2nd/3rd century CE.^[19]

An inscription in ancient Greek in Phoenice, southern Albania related to the liberation act of the slave Nikarchos Nikomachou Arbaios is linked to the Albanoi as Arbaios is an ethnonym which has the same root as that of the Albanoi and hasn't been attested anywhere else.^[20] Arbaios is considered to not have been a local of the city, but someone who had been moved there from more northern areas in central Albania.^[21] The inscription was excavated in the 1920s by Luigi Ugolini. It dates to the 3rd/2nd century BCE.^[1]

 

[Illyria]

The Abroi were situated near the Fan river valleys and the Drin river in Northern Albania. It's possible their name could have been 'Arbi' as stated in the quote below. Arbi, Albani, Arbanasi, Arbanon, are all likely the same people. Even the the tribe "Iliri" was near these people in Northern/Central Albania, and over time became the name used to denote all the tribes in West Balkans as 'Illyrians'

The tribe is mentioned solely by Hecataeus of Miletus (6th century BCE), in fragment 69 of Periodos ges, cited by Stephanus of Byzantium (6th century CE). The name of the tribe is recorded in Ancient Greek as ἌβροιAbroi.Their name may have actually been Arboi as Abroi may have been produced via a metathesis, another linguistic process or a common misassociation by Hecataeus of their name with the ancient Greek term abros to better adapt it to Greek. The name Arboi would link them to the Illyrian Albanoi, who are attested in the same area in the 2nd century CE.^[3]
N. G. L. Hammond has pointed out that the name Abroi and Albanoi gave rise to the name Albania/Albanians, similar to the spread of the name Illyria/Illyrians from a small group of people on the Adriatic coast, the Illyrioi. This process can also be seen in the case of Graeci and Hellenes.^[4]

Hecataeus places them near the Taulantii who lived along the Adriatic and the Enchelei. In modern scholarship the Abroi are generally placed near the Mat and Drin valleys. The Abroi may have been a constituent northern tribe of the larger group of the Taulantii.^[1][2]

 

[enter_tain]

What you said about E-V13 can also be said about R1b and J2b. This does not make R1b and J2b Ottoman era founder effects.
This has more to do with population boost after the 15th century rather than a founder effect during the Ottoman era.

Of course it can be said about those. That's exactly what happened. They just happened at different eras, which is what you can't seem to comprehend. R1b-M269 expansion was during the early Bronze Age, while J2b during the Middle Bronze Age.

TCMRA of EV13 is old enough, but it didn't become a pan-European lineage until the Roman Empire. It very likely moved from eastern Balkans/Anatolia/or wherever the "Roman Imperial" East Med admixture came from.

Numbers wise, the country with most EV13 men is Italy. It's just Italy is much larger than Albania or Greece so it's harder to take over completely.

 

[torzio]

The Abroi were situated near the Fan river valleys and the Drin river in Northern Albania. It's possible their name could have been 'Arbi' as stated in the quote below. Arbi, Albani, Arbanasi, Arbanon, are all likely the same people. Even the the tribe "Iliri" was near these people in Northern/Central Albania, and over time became the name used to denote all the tribes in West Balkans as 'Illyrians'

The Drin and Fan rivers never meet .........

The Fan river is where the Taulantii lived ................next to Lehze gulf .......north of Durres

and the Drin is where the Labeatae

Where are these abroi ??? ......................looks like they sit inside of the Taulantii..............

Hecataeus places the Arbroi near the Taulantii


what are you trying to say......they merged with the Taulantii ??

 

[Illyria]

The Drin and Fan rivers never meet .........
The Fan river is where the Taulantii lived ................next to Lehze gulf .......north of Durres
and the Drin is where the Labeatae
Where are these abroi ??? ......................looks like they sit inside of the Taulantii..............
Hecataeus places the Arbroi near the Taulantii
what are you trying to say......they merged with the Taulantii ??

It's literally in the quote I posted above, just read. It will answer your own knit-picking questions. I'll paste it again for you dear

Hecataeus places them near the Taulantii who lived along the Adriatic and the Enchelei. In modern scholarship the Abroi are generally placed near the Mat and Drin valleys. The Abroi may have been a constituent northern tribe of the larger group of the Taulantii.^[1][2]

 

[Johane Derite]

Arbanasi mentioned for the first time in the 10th century? Nope, Albanoi was mentioned in the Mat-Mirdite region of Albania since 150AD. Also we have inscriptions in Shkup, Shtip, and Finiq of people hailing from this region, long before the 10th century, and one of the inscriptions is dated to the 2nd/3rd century BC. The Illyrian tribe Abri, which was located at the Fan river valleys, has also been linked to the Albanoi. Zgerdhesh is likely the ancient city of Albanopolis

The inscription near Shkup which actually says Albanopolis is obviously related to the Albanoi, (remember they had no illyrian names also) as is the one near Shtip, but the "Arbaios" from finiq has nothing to do with Albanopolis.

This is Aurel Plasari's bullshit hypothesis and lies that have spammed that wiki page.

His lies about Arbon not being the island of Rab have been debunked in this thread, and his book is one of the biggest piles of crap that has been published in a long time.

 

[Hawk]

Of course it can be said about those. That's exactly what happened. They just happened at different eras, which is what you can't seem to comprehend. R1b-M269 expansion was during the early Bronze Age, while J2b during the Middle Bronze Age.

TCMRA of EV13 is old enough, but it didn't become a pan-European lineage until the Roman Empire. It very likely moved from eastern Balkans/Anatolia/or wherever the "Roman Imperial" East Med admixture came from.

Numbers wise, the country with most EV13 men is Italy. It's just Italy is much larger than Albania or Greece so it's harder to take over completely.

Your Turkish coffee cup && palm reading abilities do not qualify enough for population genomics. Find another hobby.

 

[Hawk]

Yes, but the second quote mentioned that it appears in north albania and as far as kosova, but was going into more specific subtypes of chanelled ware (horizontal chanelling vs vertical, etc)

Let's see where these archaeological records stands with aDNA, it requires samples from much more than single sites of course and both Iron Age and Early Christianity period.

 

[torzio]

It's literally in the quote I posted above, just read. It will answer your own knit-picking questions. I'll paste it again for you dear

Knit-picking ? ................I do not like to see your summary like answers as finale
Summaries are as ..... "useful as an ashtray on a motorbike" ............unless solid evidence is found


more rubbish about the echelai .................they are found in Budva Montenegro like Strabo stated ....how are they neighbours?

 

[Wanderer]

Its weird but theres no real ancient e-v13 on y full
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
The oldest sample is estimated to be 1500 ybp.
Does anyone know old pre roman e-v13 samples from studies?

 

[mount123]

Your Turkish coffee cup && palm reading abilities do not qualify enough for population genomics. Find another hobby.

Couldn't have said it better. It is absolutely insane what that user puts out there and manages to get away with it all the time. From chronic name calling to pseudo scientific mishmash, it's comedic.

 

[Illyria]

The inscription near Shkup which actually says Albanopolis is obviously related to the Albanoi, (remember they had no illyrian names also) as is the one near Shtip, but the "Arbaios" from finiq has nothing to do with Albanopolis.

This is Aurel Plasari's bullshit hypothesis and lies that have spammed that wiki page.

His lies about Arbon not being the island of Rab have been debunked in this thread, and his book is one of the biggest piles of crap that has been published in a long time.

Where do you think this 'Arbaios' comes from? Not being hostile, genuinely curious what you think / or if there's any other place he would have come from

Another thing I'm curious about is the old name of Raska, used to be called 'Arsa' long ago. Where do these "Ar" names from from? The Slavs seemed to have changed this name from Arsa to Ras, then eventually Raska. Same with the island of Rab, used to be Arb. Do these "Ar" names have something to do with Proto-Albs?

Arsa was a fortress that was refortified by Justinian during his reign

 

[Johane Derite]

Where do you think this 'Arbaios' comes from? Not being hostile, genuinely curious what you think / or if there's any other place he would have come from

Another thing I'm curious about is the old name of Raska, used to be called 'Arsa' long ago. Where do there "Ar" names from from? The Slavs seemed to have changed this name from Arsa to Ras, then eventually Raska. Same with the island of Rab, used to be Arb. Do these "Ar" names have something to do with Proto-Albs?

Arsa was a fortress that was refortified by Justinian during his reign

The change of arb- to rab- is a slavic sound law that happened before the end of the 800s, called slavic liquid metathesis.

For another example, skardona became skradin, or Alb- became Lab- in Laberia through slavic liquid metathesis.

Arb- appears in the old name of the croatian island Rab (Arba) and i dont think it was a proto-Albanian island.

I would imagine that Arbaios has probably a similar meaning to the etymology of the island Arba, probably used in toponyms by illyrians, if not literally even denoting that this person was from that island.

I do not think the albanoi and the abroi are the same people. We have no reason to believe that romans were writing it with an L when they never did that with the island of Arba for example.

Im sure proto-albanians also had words with ar- but i dont know the etymology of these islands to say anything for sure.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rab

 

[enter_tain]

Your Turkish coffee cup && palm reading abilities do not qualify enough for population genomics. Find another hobby.

You should find another brain, because yours isn't functioning.

EV13 clearly experienced a Roman-era expansion into all of Southern Europe and parts of Central/Western Europe. Like I said there are 4-5 million Italian men today, 1 in 7 with EV13. The baseline levels for southern Europe are 15-20%, while some regional peaks in Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Montenegro, Serbia go beyond that.

I don't know if the EV13 people carried the so-called "Roman Imperial admixture" but the authors of that study clearly stated there was a strong correlation.

 

[enter_tain]

Couldn't have said it better. It is absolutely insane what that user puts out there and manages to get away with it all the time. From chronic name calling to pseudo scientific mishmash, it's comedic.

The guy who calls himself "Neo-Illyrian" and doesn't understand that Y-DNA is only 1 ancestor accuses others of "pseudo-science"

 

[Excine]

The change of arb- to rab- is a slavic sound law that happened before the end of the 800s, called slavic liquid metathesis.
For another example, skardona became skradin, or Alb- became Lab- in Laberia through slavic liquid metathesis.
Arb- appears in the old name of the croatian island Rab (Arba) and i dont think it was a proto-Albanian island.
I would imagine that Arbaios has probably a similar meaning to the etymology of the island Arba, probably used in toponyms by illyrians, if not literally even denoting that this person was from that island.
I do not think the albanoi and the abroi are the same people. We have no reason to believe that romans were writing it with an L when they never did that with the island of Arba for example.
Im sure proto-albanians also had words with ar- but i dont know the etymology of these islands to say anything for sure.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rab

Plasari's theory is way more plausible than it being the island Rab. There's also a theory that places it in southern Dalmatia. You're trash talking (as usual) about him because you don't like the conclusions. If he was a Yugoslav anti-Albanian conspiracy theorist who thinks that Albanians came from the Carpathians in 900 AD, you would be cheering him. Instead you are cowardly writing such things because he subscribes to what genetic studies proved. I say cowardly because you would never dare to write a single thing about Plasari or anyone else with your real name and get actual criticism.

Arb- is an Illyrian root and Arba is northern Illyrian. Proto-Albanians with whatever name were the people who lived in southern Illyria as evidenced by the highest diversity and concentration of major Albanian lineages in Cinamak. The people who were the Albani could have also been E-V13 but they were definitely R-CTS1450, R-PFT7563, J-L283, three major lineages under which Albanians have very high diversity.
Again, if you don't like it, so much worse for you but the facts won't change. The people who spoke the closest language to Albanian, carried the same haplogroups.

If you don't think that the Abroi are the Albani, it's also your problem. Historians who have written about this subject do consider them the same people.


@Illyria Arbaios likely came from somewhere else in Albania, maybe in the region of the Taulanti, in the same area as the Abroi, which is most likely a Greek mistake of writing Arboi. He didn't come to the island Arba.



Among ancient Illyrians, there was a /l/ < > /r/ shift. The name Pleuratus is found in inscriptions also as Preuratus and this is totally unrelated to Romans because the same shift is found in Greek inscriptions:

https://epigraphy.packhum.org/text/182157?hs=23-29
https://epigraphy.packhum.org/text/182476?hs=24-30

Pleuratos in Durres.

 

[torzio]

Plasari's theory is way more plausible than it being the island Rab. There's also a theory that places it in southern Dalmatia. You're trash talking (as usual) about him because you don't like the conclusions. If he was a Yugoslav anti-Albanian conspiracy theorist who thinks that Albanians came from the Carpathians in 900 AD, you would be cheering him. Instead you are cowardly writing such things because he subscribes to what genetic studies proved. I say cowardly because you would never dare to write a single thing about Plasari or anyone else with your real name and get actual criticism.

Arb- is an Illyrian root and Arba is northern Illyrian. Proto-Albanians with whatever name were the people who lived in southern Illyria as evidenced by the highest diversity and concentration of major Albanian lineages in Cinamak. The people who were the Albani could have also been E-V13 but they were definitely R-CTS1450, R-PFT7563, J-L283, three major lineages under which Albanians have very high diversity.
Again, if you don't like it, so much worse for you but the facts won't change. The people who spoke the closest language to Albanian, carried the same haplogroups.

If you don't think that the Abroi are the Albani, it's also your problem. Historians who have written about this subject do consider them the same people.


@Illyria Arbaios likely came from somewhere else in Albania, maybe in the region of the Taulanti, in the same area as the Abroi, which is most likely a Greek mistake of writing Arboi. He didn't come to the island Arba.



Among ancient Illyrians, there was a /l/ < > /r/ shift. The name Pleuratus is found in inscriptions also as Preuratus and this is totally unrelated to Romans because the same shift is found in Greek inscriptions:

https://epigraphy.packhum.org/text/182157?hs=23-29
https://epigraphy.packhum.org/text/182476?hs=24-30

Pleuratos in Durres.

Arba is a Liburnian name ..............I would like to see what Liburnian words are found in Corfu as they held the island for more than 300 years ( circa 1050 -733BC )

the name Arba. That name belonged to the Liburnians, so far the oldest known inhabitants of the island. Arba was also the name of the Liburnian settlement in the modern city of Rab