Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Riverman]

The Noua-Wietenberg fusion influenced G?va, and all Channelled Ware groups being primarily descendants from G?va. Channelled Ware seems to have been, in my opinion, by and large Thracian. All post-Channelled Ware territories, in which they firmly established themselves, appear later as Thracian, Dacian and Moesian. No exception from that rule.

There were however some mixed groups and fusions, which turned out different. One of these were the Paeonians, Northern Greeks and Dardanians. The Dardanians are said to have pushed the Channelled Ware groups back, but finally overrun parts of them in their Eastern territory in particular, and assimilating those, clearly. So they had a strong double substrate Thracian effect. First from early Channelled Ware groups, which infiltrated their core zone, then by assimilating a later Thracian substrate.

 

[Hawk]

Well, that's your opinion, and i think you are rather wrong here.

 

[Excine]

Scholars like Vekony argue that the Gava / Channelled Ware people were the ancestors of the Dacians, Getians, and Mysians.


This culture also appears in North Albania & Kosova.


Does this mean there was a Dacian related people also in Albania alongside the Glasinac Illyrians?

There is no Gava culture in Albania or Kosova or any Illyrian territory. Can you bring academic sources which actually claim that Gava culture settled in Albania or Kosova? You posted a source which speaks about Bulgaria and then just added in your personal conjecture about Albania as if it's something which is supported by the source, but there's nothing about Albania in the source.


The most ludicrous thing about this is that E-V13 didn't spread from Gava lands but you are still propagating misinformation.

 

[Riverman]

There is no Gava culture in Albania or Kosova or any Illyrian territory. Can you bring academic sources which actually claim that Gava culture settled in Albania or Kosova? You posted a source which speaks about Bulgaria and then just added in your personal conjecture about Albania as if it's something which is supported by the source, but there's nothing about Albania in the source.


The most ludicrous thing about this is that E-V13 didn't spread from Gava lands but you are still propagating misinformation.

For some reason we have different terms in different regions. The Albanian authors prefer usually "cannelure ceramic", the Bulgarian ones "Fluted Ware" and the rest usually speaks of Channelled Ware. Whether people use the term G?va for all of them or not is basically a problem of definition, like how narrow or wide do you define G?va?
If you define it very narrowly, then G?va did not spread much to the South, but fact is that the Channelled Ware groups being all derived from it and move not just with the pottery, but largely with the complete package.

Well, that's your opinion, and i think you are rather wrong here.

What exactly is my opinion? I know of no clearly Channelled Ware derived group which was not Thracian. Like what are the main cultural formations we can observe:
- Late North G?va = seems to be associated with North Carpathian Dacian tribes later, like Carpi and Costobocci
- Meczocsat, Thraco-Cimmerians = local element clearly Thracian
- Bosut and Basarabi = clearly Thracian-Dacian
- Ferigile (Scythian influences) = Thracian, Triballi
- Danubian Fluted Ware and Psenichevo = Thracian
- Babadag = Unknown, but must have been Thracian, considering the later connections of the region to Southern Thracians and Getae
- Asia minor Knobbed Ware and descendants = Thyni and Bithyni = Thracian tribes

 

[Hawk]

There is no Gava culture in Albania or Kosova or any Illyrian territory. Can you bring academic sources which actually claim that Gava culture settled in Albania or Kosova? You posted a source which speaks about Bulgaria and then just added in your personal conjecture about Albania as if it's something which is supported by the source, but there's nothing about Albania in the source.


The most ludicrous thing about this is that E-V13 didn't spread from Gava lands but you are still propagating misinformation.

Esmeralda Agolli, Muzafer Korkuti and Rovena Kurti are of the opinion that Kanellure/Channeled-Ware does appear in Late Bronze Age Albania, and the region where it does appear surprisingly is where we see historical Enchelei, where during Early Iron Age even their burial is different from core Illyrians. Otherwise, how is it possible to ignore Psenicevo Culture E-V13 leaks, that's considered by old Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serb, Romanian archaeologists as descended culture from Gava, and it's usually called Early Hallstattian. So they were part of Urnfield hemisphere. Get over it dude, your buddies futile attempt is simply futile.

And it doesn't have to be Gava specifically but related groups, because Balkan-Carpathian hemisphere was huge, you also have Vatin, Paracin, Mediana, Grla Mara from Central Balkans.

Lofkënd (Albania) tumulus excavation, E. Agolli.18 The excavation at the prehistoric burial tumulus of Lofkënd took place from 2004 to 2006 with an additional study season in 2007. The monograph was published in 2014. The pottery repertoire accompanies with some intensity three phases of the tumulus construction: Phase II (1200 - 1100 BC), Phase III (1100 - 900 BC) and Phase III-IV (1000 - 900 BC). The assemblage recovered as kterismata is comprised mainly by two groups, light and dark fine. The light fine is mostly accompanied with mattpainted or plastic decoration whereas the dark fine comes with ribbing or the so-called kanellure decoration (Pl. XCVc). The vessel forms vary from small to medium, classified conventionally as drinking vessels. In terms of quantity, the light fine is slightly more represented. A considerable quantity of fragmentary material was encountered in the soil that filled either the tumulus or the tombs. In addition to the fine ware, in the soil were recovered semi-coarse and coarse fragments of medium or large vessels.

https://dial.uclouvain.be/pr/boreal/object/boreal:249304/datastream/PDF_01/view

As for Kosovo, that was the stronghold of Channeled-Ware/Belegis-Gava II. You can read various Serb/Kosovo Albanian archaeologists agreeing that Dardanians were Belegis-Gava II/Brnjica descendands.

What exactly is my opinion? I know of no clearly Channelled Ware derived group which was not Thracian. Like what are the main cultural formations we can observe:
- Late North G�va = seems to be associated with North Carpathian Dacian tribes later, like Carpi and Costobocci
- Meczocsat, Thraco-Cimmerians = local element clearly Thracian
- Bosut and Basarabi = clearly Thracian-Dacian
- Ferigile (Scythian influences) = Thracian, Triballi
- Danubian Fluted Ware and Psenichevo = Thracian
- Babadag = Unknown, but must have been Thracian, considering the later connections of the region to Southern Thracians and Getae
- Asia minor Knobbed Ware and descendants = Thyni and Bithyni = Thracian tribes

The Dardanians appear in North-Western Turkey were Thyni Bithyni appear, but Dardani appear with Mysians which it does sound like Moesians. Would be too much of a coincidence same pack of people with almost exactly the same tribal names and same archeological packages to appear at the same sites. I don't believe coincidences of this scale.

 

[Johane Derite]

There is no Gava culture in Albania or Kosova or any Illyrian territory. Can you bring academic sources which actually claim that Gava culture settled in Albania or Kosova? You posted a source which speaks about Bulgaria and then just added in your personal conjecture about Albania as if it's something which is supported by the source, but there's nothing about Albania in the source.
The most ludicrous thing about this is that E-V13 didn't spread from Gava lands but you are still propagating misinformation.

Why are you crying?
Gava is the core of the channelled ware phenomenon. Here is the map, here it is stated clear as day, in blue:

Albania and Kosova both have channelled ware appear in the late bronze age to early iron age period. This is a fact known by all archaeologists.
It is fact.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Why are you crying?
Gava is the core of the channelled ware phenomenon. Here is the map, here it is stated clear as day, in blue:

Albania and Kosova both have channelled ware appear in the late bronze age to early iron age period. This is a fact known by all archaeologists.
It is fact.

Joane your being a bit disrespectful to someone asking for a source.
Alas the source you provided "from Ukraine to Troy" did not mention Albania? I have no idea one way or the other, but I feel for being disrespectful with "why are you crying" you did a terrible job at providing a source, with a rather <trust me bro> argument, "This is a fact known by all archaeologists. -It is fact."... Its a bit rich from people to expect others to know what they know.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Esmeralda Agolli, Muzafer Korkuti and Rovena Kurti are of the opinion that Kanellure/Channeled-Ware does appear in Late Bronze Age Albania, and the region where it does appear surprisingly is where we see historical Enchelei, where during Early Iron Age even their burial is different from core Illyrians. Otherwise, how is it possible to ignore Psenicevo Culture E-V13 leaks, that's considered by old Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serb, Romanian archaeologists as descended culture from Gava, and it's usually called Early Hallstattian. So they were part of Urnfield hemisphere. Get over it dude, your buddies futile attempt is simply futile.

And it doesn't have to be Gava specifically but related groups, because Balkan-Carpathian hemisphere was huge, you also have Vatin, Paracin, Mediana, Grla Mara from Central Balkans.



As for Kosovo, that was the stronghold of Channeled-Ware/Belegis-Gava II. You can read various Serb/Kosovo Albanian archaeologists agreeing that Dardanians were Belegis-Gava II/Brnjica descendands.





The Dardanians appear in North-Western Turkey were Thyni Bithyni appear, but Dardani appear with Mysians which it does sound like Moesians. Would be too much of a coincidence same pack of people with almost exactly the same tribal names and same archeological packages to appear at the same sites. I don't believe coincidences of this scale.

Have no idea personally about Gava part, but if it were true it would not be surprising imo. I was very surprised myself when among the rumored Albanian samples there was no E-V13, and cremation came to mind. And as you neatly mentioned, the twin ethnonyms between Balkans and Anatolia, Dardanians, Bryges/Prygians etc, certainly would be a big coincidence if it was just a coincidence. Luckily we might find out, as among the 730 samples, samples from Troy might be present. But if Dardanians from Kosove and Troy both were of a similar cultural complex descending from Gava then it might be tough luck, since from what I read from you guys these cultures exclusively cremated?

 

[Johane Derite]

Joane your being a bit disrespectful to someone asking for a source.
Alas the source you provided "from Ukraine to Troy" did not mention Albania? I have no idea one way or the other, but I feel for being disrespectful with "why are you crying" you did a terrible job at providing a source, with a rather <trust me bro> argument, "This is a fact known by all archaeologists. -It is fact."... Its a bit rich from people to expect others to know what they know.

Hey genius, the source was literally in the original image.

There is a literal map of Albania and Kosova with channelled ware distribution marked out.

Is this another reading comprehension problem?

 

[Archetype0ne]

Hey genius, the source was literally in the original image.
There is a literal map of Albania and Kosova with channelled ware distribution marked out.
Is this another reading comprehension problem?

Not sure if they taught about respect in your home, but it seems you have trouble with basic human interaction.
As for the image, I stare at maps as a hobby, I think you might be confused if you think that image has Kosove highlighted. But either way, if you're having a bad day, make no mistake to think you can behave like a dunce.

 

[Excine]

Joane your being a bit disrespectful to someone asking for a source.
Alas the source you provided "from Ukraine to Troy" did not mention Albania? I have no idea one way or the other, but I feel for being disrespectful with "why are you crying" you did a terrible job at providing a source, with a rather <trust me bro> argument, "This is a fact known by all archaeologists. -It is fact."... Its a bit rich from people to expect others to know what they know.

I asked him for a source and because no such source exists he posted an irrelevant one and threw in an insult for good measure.


The source which he posted says nothing at all about Gava culture settlements in Albania or Kosovo or the western Balkans in general. It's also important that it doesn't even support his theory about channelled pottery being spread with migrations.


Note how he didn't even link the study. Johane highlighted this sentence **While some researchers equal the spread of the pottery style with the movement of people** and then cropped the page.


Here's the full quote:


While some researchers equal the spread of the pottery style with the movement of people (Leviţki 1994; Rusu 1963; Smirnova 1974), others prefer explanations which can be summarized under key words like cultural syncretism, acculturation, communication or the spread of a new ‘fashion’ (Hänsel 1976; Pare 1998; Vulpe 1995. As the first theory cannot account for the great number and the dimensions of the settlements which contained channelled pottery (one would have to imagine mass migration for this to have been the case), the second line of thought gains ground, although the details of the presumed culturally-induced changes have not yet been made clear.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...te_Bronze_Age_and_Early_Iron_Age_Transylvania

Once more Johane Derite/@Albanian History is caught manipulating sources and misusing their content in order to promote his agenda.

 

[Archetype0ne]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...te_Bronze_Age_and_Early_Iron_Age_Transylvania

Once more Johane Derite/@Albanian History is caught manipulating sources and misusing their content in order to promote his agenda.

Its still funny. The part he highlighted isn't even Kosove/Albania. Rather the southernmost part is the Danube basin in a rather restrictive sense.

 

[Johane Derite]

Scholars like Vekony argue that the Gava / Channelled Ware people were the ancestors of the Dacians, Getians, and Mysians.

This is a literal map of Albania and Kosova with distribution of Channelled Ware / Gava pottery.

You guys just demonstrate yet again how moronic you are.

 

[Hawk]

Have no idea personally about Gava part, but if it were true it would not be surprising imo. I was very surprised myself when among the rumored Albanian samples there was no E-V13, and cremation came to mind. And as you neatly mentioned, the twin ethnonyms between Balkans and Anatolia, Dardanians, Bryges/Prygians etc, certainly would be a big coincidence if it was just a coincidence. Luckily we might find out, as among the 730 samples, samples from Troy might be present. But if Dardanians from Kosove and Troy both were of a similar cultural complex descending from Gava then it might be tough luck, since from what I read from you guys these cultures exclusively cremated?

Personally, i am not arguing Glasinac-Mat didn't have E-V13 at all, it's simply that i don't know, i don't see any kind of indication how to connect except for seeing the aDNA results, i used to think they had Middle-Danubian Urnfield influence but in 2021 Der Illyrer book Andreas Lippert rejects that, supporting the idea of Yugoslav and Albanian archaeologists, perhaps there was some E-V13, but it shouldn't have been so much in importance as in Eastern Urnfielders (here i will stop calling all of them Gava, because related groups not necessarily being Gava core were E-V13 as well).

As for Albania, whenever you see Illyrian core groups you don't see cremation graves so much, some cremation graves appear in Glasinac-Mat, but they are rare still, Enchelei used to cremate their dead (especially their warrior caste), but they used inhumation as well, from what i read Serb archaeologists consider the mixed Brnjica + Belegis-Gava II as core and aboriginal Dardanian and the Glasinac-Mat in the West as Illyrian and West Bosut-Bassarabi influence as Thracian/Triballian. Dardanians were pushed by Glasinac-Mat from the West and Bosut-Bassarabi/Triballi from the North/East somewhere in Middle Iron Age apparently.

 

[Archetype0ne]

@Joane
I mentioned a bit earlier, how it is a mistake to assume others can read your mind. But at this point I am even questioning your good faith, in three comments you are offending fellow members thrice.

http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=18
The source of the image you posted does not mention channeled ware once? How are we supposed to know if kanellure and channeled ware are the same thing?

This explains they are synonymous.
https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-01695818/document

Albeit from the first source it appears the find were in Tumuli. So no idea how this would relate to these Carpathian cremating cultures.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Personally, i am not arguing Glasinac-Mat didn't have E-V13 at all, it's simply that i don't know, i don't see any kind of indication how to connect except for seeing the aDNA results, i used to think they had Middle-Danubian Urnfield influence but in 2021 Der Illyrer book Andreas Lippert rejects that, supporting the idea of Yugoslav and Albanian archaeologists, perhaps there was some E-V13, but it shouldn't have been so much in importance as in Eastern Urnfielders (here i will stop calling all of them Gava, because related groups not necessarily being Gava core were E-V13 as well).

As for Albania, whenever you see Illyrian core groups you don't see cremation graves so much, some cremation graves appear in Glasinac-Mat, but they are rare still, Enchelei used to cremate their dead (especially their warrior caste), but they used inhumation as well, from what i read Serb archaeologists consider the mixed Brnjica + Belegis-Gava II as core and aboriginal Dardanian and the Glasinac-Mat in the West as Illyrian and West Bosut-Bassarabi influence as Thracian/Triballian. Dardanians were pushed by Glasinac-Mat from the West and Bosut-Bassarabi/Triballi from the North/East somewhere in Middle Iron Age apparently.

For me, the biggest puzzle here is why this is such a highly contested topic. It seems on Anthrogenica at least this debate has been going on ad nauseam. What would the implications be, say if Gava related or not?

Personally I do not really care, I just have a pet peeve when people try to put insurance on the their hypothesis, on whatever side of the debate.

 

[Hawk]

@Joane
I mentioned a bit earlier, how it is a mistake to assume others can read your mind. But at this point I am even questioning your good faith, in three comments you are offending fellow members thrice.

http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=18
The source of the image you posted does not mention channeled ware once? How are we supposed to know if kanellure and channeled ware are the same thing?

This explains they are synonymous.
https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-01695818/document

Albeit from the first source it appears the find were in Tumuli. So no idea how this would relate to these Carpathian cremating cultures.

They are the same, kanellure is the French word of channeled, they are synonymous. And they took the source from Albanian archaeologists like Muzafer Korkuti, Rovena Kurti, Esmeralda Agolli, from excavations in Lofkend and some other sites.

 

[Johane Derite]

@Joane
I mentioned a bit earlier, how it is a mistake to assume others can read your mind. But at this point I am even questioning your good faith, in three comments you are offending fellow members thrice.

I don't care what you mentioned. You seem very confused about the order of things.

Read my mind? There was no need to read my mind, there was a need to read the comment and have a basic school level reading comprehension.

I literally wrote a comment that had a map of Albania and Kosova with chanelled ware / gav distribution marked out, and got accused by your moron friend Excine that:

"There is no Gava culture in Albania or Kosova or any Illyrian territory."

This is clearly false. I then posted the second image about Gava / channelled ware to show where it came from.

And about disrespect, you speak to me as if this is the first time that we interact. If you were a stranger I would be polite as I am with anybody that reciprocates it.

The fact is that we have interacted before countless times and you have proved countless times to not be worthy of respect because of your constant attacks, accusations, disrespect.

I have nothing but disrespect for you and your clown gang of Dushmans, Excines, Fustans, etc. You guys are bottom feeder idiot barbarians that deserve no respect. Go cry about it somewhere.

 

[Hawk]

For me, the biggest puzzle here is why this is such a highly contested topic. It seems on Anthrogenica at least this debate has been going on ad nauseam. What would the implications be, say if Gava related or not?

Personally I do not really care, I just have a pet peeve when people try to put insurance on the their hypothesis, on whatever side of the debate.

If until the end of 2022 they don't post any sample, then we should organize a boxing match between Riverman and Bruzmi to settle this down once and forever, who wins, his theory will be officially recognized.

 

[Archetype0ne]

They are the same, kanellure is the French word of channeled, they are synonymous. And they took the source from Albanian archaeologists like Muzafer Korkuti, Rovena Kurti, Esmeralda Agolli, from excavations in Lofkend and some other sites.

While for obvious reasons I do hope we see E-V13 in Illyrian context, no matter where it originated from. I am quite sure we would have heard leaks at least from the handful of samples we have if it was found, at least in Albania. No idea if some members know more than we do on this, since I have not heard rumors about this particular instance, but looking at how Riverman has been preparing the ground for E-V13 in Illyrian context either in Albania/Kosove/ or Glasinac Mati and how the debate still continues with Brumzi, maybe there is more to this.

I still think it would probably have leaked by now if it was the case. Making the whole argument feel like wishful thinking on my part.