Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Hawk]

I find this whole idea that the dominance of E-V13 in Albanians as a founder effect matter not convincing at all. It can be true but the chances are slim.
There was a Thessalian-like outlier among the Illyrian samples and an Marche-like outlier. I recommend to not use those when modelling.
I think Bruzmi uses outliers to make E-V13 seem as a founder.

We still didn't get the full picture of aDNA Balkans, the Southern Arch was just a portion of it, let's wait for more samples, then we can probably make a better deduction. We still have a tremendous issue on locating the ultimate origin of E-V13, was it within Balkan-Carpathian border-zone (my favorite theory), or extreme East Balkans (Dobrudja and nearby) Danubian Delta/Lower Danube. I favor more inland Balkan-Carpathian horizont of course.

 

[ihype02]

Mate, there are like 6 Balkan countries with >= 20% E-V13. This is not an Albanian phenomenon.

Consider sheer population size for a second, and realize there are more Germans, Frenchmen and Italian with E-V13 than there are Albanians. This has nothing to do with "Thracians".

I made an entire thread showing that the "East Med" component that was spread with the Romans was largely carried by E-V13 people. We have 4 "East Med" E-V13s, 2 in Serbia, 2 in Turkey, during Byzantine times.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42852-E-V13-men-as-carriers-of-Roman-Imperial-Admixture

Literally all those E-V13s in Serbia are either half "East Med"/Aegean, or fully "Near Eastern".

2 E-V13 East Med samples in Serbia were Native Balkanic mixed with some West Asian admixture. Most other E-V13 were in Iron Age Balkan cluster.

Same thing in Anatolia. A Thracian tribe migrated in North Western Anatolia and likely left minor Y-Dna. You can find even Slavic Y-Dna during the Dark Ages in Anatolia. Does that mean anything?

According to your logic is that Anatolians and Levantines settled in Eastern Europe magically became E-V13 admixed and started spreading it in other parts of Europe. How would that even happen? Why wouldn't they bring their own Y-Dna like J1 or J2a instead? Like it shows in Imperial Rome paper.

The first E-V13 in Italy is Gothic.

 

[enter_tain]

2 E-V13 East Med samples in Serbia were Native Balkanic mixed with some West Asian admixture. Most other E-V13 were in Iron Age Balkan cluster.

No. There were 2 clusters of E-V13 in Serbia

(1) Fully "Near Eastern" E-V13

(2) "Balkan Iron Age" who were 67% "Bronze Age Aegean" and were a clear mix between Illyrians/East-Med people.

Same thing in Anatolia. A Thracian tribe migrated in North Western Anatolia and likely left minor Y-Dna. You can find even Slavic Y-Dna during the Dark Ages in Anatolia. Does that mean anything?
According to your logic is that Anatolians and Levantines settled in Eastern Europe magically became E-V13 admixed and started spreading it in other parts of Europe. How would that even happen? Why wouldn't they bring their own Y-Dna like J1 or J2a instead? Like it shows in Imperial Rome paper.
The first E-V13 in Italy is Gothic.

Italy straight up became a Germanic kingdom after the fall of Rome, and I1 is still low. Italy is up to 15% E-V13. How is that "Gothic"? The Goths didn't have those numbers. I wrote this in the other forum, Thracians absorbed E-V13 people around the region of southeastern Europe/northwest Anatolia. It wasn't that all E-V13 are Thracian.

You cannot attribute 30 million fkng people or however many E-V13 men there are today to "Thracians".

 

[enter_tain]

We still didn't get the full picture of aDNA Balkans, the Southern Arch was just a portion of it, let's wait for more samples, then we can probably make a better deduction. We still have a tremendous issue on locating the ultimate origin of E-V13, was it within Balkan-Carpathian border-zone (my favorite theory), or extreme East Balkans (Dobrudja and nearby) Danubian Delta/Lower Danube. I favor more inland Balkan-Carpathian horizont of course.

E-V13 is clearly West Asian/Farmer. Its main subclade TCMRA doesn't even match up with Indo-European migrations like R1b/J2B2. It's later on.

This argument will be put to rest by academics once they see those Turkish East Med E-V13s. They will revisit the Roman Cosmopolitanism paper where they assumed even East Med E-V13s were locals and change their assumptions.

There might be a few E-V13s here and there in Europe that were locals (like Iron Age Illyrians), but the vast majority were the East Med Roman Imperial migrants who flooded the Roman Empire from the eastern parts.

 

[ihype02]

No. There were 2 clusters of E-V13 in Serbia
(1) Fully "Near Eastern" E-V13
(2) "Balkan Iron Age" who were 67% "Bronze Age Aegean" and were a clear mix between Illyrians/East-Med people.
Italy straight up became a Germanic kingdom after the fall of Rome, and I1 is still low. Italy is up to 15% E-V13. How is that "Gothic"? The Goths didn't have those numbers. I wrote this in the other forum, Thracians absorbed E-V13 people around the region of southeastern Europe/northwest Anatolia. It wasn't that all E-V13 are Thracian.
You cannot attribute 30 million fkng people or however many E-V13 men there are today to "Thracians".

I am not saying E-V13 in Italy is mostly Gothic. I am saying that if E-V13 is signal of West Asian admixture (better term than East Med) why Imperial Romans lack it? How did these Eastern Shifted people absorve this line? Some E-V13 being East shifted makes sense in that Roman location but overall East Med shifted E-V13 carriers were outliers among E-V13 carriers in general.

 

[ihype02]

E-V13 is clearly West Asian/Farmer. Its main subclade TCMRA doesn't even match up with Indo-European migrations like R1b/J2B2. It's later on.

This argument will be put to rest by academics once they see those Turkish East Med E-V13s. They will revisit the Roman Cosmopolitanism paper where they assumed even East Med E-V13s were locals and change their assumptions.

There might be a few E-V13s here and there in Europe that were locals (like Iron Age Illyrians), but the vast majority were the East Med Roman Imperial migrants who flooded the Roman Empire from the eastern parts.

What is funny is that you can model Albanians with Imperial Romans and get +25% minimum ancestry so not so much founder effect.

Even though E-V13 is clearly East Balkanic line and not a West Asian admixed Roman one.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The IA Levant average I was using had a Balkan IA or LBA component, comes of as Thracian, but it's likely Mycenaean(didn't check) Sea People invader(Philistine). This mixture created the Kukes abnormality. Using proper ME sources, the reading goes away.

BTW, the majority of the Trogir samples have a Gothic component and Levant, using them in your model has the same effect when I combined the Goth with the Paeonian and Thracian. The Dalmatian model has the same issues.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Here is a reading on the Roman samples(I excluded anyone with considerable Germanic reading).

Nassius, SirmiumR6730, KrusevljeR6701 form a similar profile, which is probably Moesian. Poliklinika seems to be a similar varient as well, but transplanted into Illyria.

 

[Hawk]

E-V13 is clearly West Asian/Farmer. Its main subclade TCMRA doesn't even match up with Indo-European migrations like R1b/J2B2. It's later on.

This argument will be put to rest by academics once they see those Turkish East Med E-V13s. They will revisit the Roman Cosmopolitanism paper where they assumed even East Med E-V13s were locals and change their assumptions.

There might be a few E-V13s here and there in Europe that were locals (like Iron Age Illyrians), but the vast majority were the East Med Roman Imperial migrants who flooded the Roman Empire from the eastern parts.

Don't know where to start lol, the cherrypicking you are doing is just unreal and so cheap-ass, and you keep quoting us with a straight face. North-West Anatolia was already Indo-European to begin with. + Anatolia in comparison with Europe has way less and way younger subclades. The presence of 2 E-V13 brothers in Nicae is either due to Greek or Thracian Bithynian presence. So, a presence starting earliest from Iron Age would make those samples look Aegean/Anatolian already in MA of course.

As for Viminacium, most of E-V13 are Balkanic IE, the 1 or 2 mixed are probably mixed with West Asian incomers. So, there you have it.

No better option for its origin at the moment except for Balkan-Carpathian/Balkan-Danubian Cultural Complex considering the Early Iron Age bulk of E-V13 Psenicevo belongs to that cultural complex. It's a no-brainer.

 

[broder]

2 ‘Turkish East Meds’ V13 are under PH1246. Same subclade also found in Iron Age Thrace (Rozovo, Bulgaria).

Jesus, some people here seem to be super thick.

 

[Johane Derite]

Carl Patsch interestingly argued that the Thracians were in Albania/West Balkans before the Illyrians.


While this is most probably wrong, he did also argue some toponyms in Illyria like "Hebros" (Devoll) to be Thracian in origin (compare Hebros in Thrace).

He also argued that Scodra was originally a Thracian toponym. His reasoning here is not clear, but it is relevant to mention that the Persians called Thrace Skudra.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra

 

[Johane Derite]

Carl Patsch interestingly argued that the Thracians were in Albania/West Balkans before the Illyrians.


While this is most probably wrong, he did also argue some toponyms in Illyria like "Hebros" (Devoll) to be Thracian in origin (compare Hebros in Thrace).

He also argued that Scodra was originally a Thracian toponym. His reasoning here is not clear, but it is relevant to mention that the Persians called Thrace Skudra.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra

Smerdaleos believes Skodra in Illyria was actually "Skudra" as greeks tended to render /u/ as /o/.

Also, Hammond believed the chanelled ware that appears in Gajtan, Shkodra, as well as in central Albania, all the way to Lofkend, to have been the Brygians.

But its clear that Brygians could not have come from balkan-carpathian zone, at best some brygians were pushed south by other migrating northerners

 

[Excine]

If the Alb mdv are truly as Exine believes, than all you need is Alb mdv and a Slavic source to model modern Albanians, you know continuity at all cost.

It's not a matter of what I believe in, the sample is **radiocarbon dated**. This is an objective reality which you can't dismiss. Learn what radiocarbon dating is because this is becoming embarrassing on your part. Of course, the only historical model which makes sense is one which includes just early medieval averages (including Slavs). Trying to build models which go below ~1.5% distance just to get a lower distance is pointless because in terms of quality it either means nothing at all or actively makes the model worse because of the huge overlap.

At the very least, are you now starting to realize that Albanians have only low Slavic admixture? Overlap or no overlap models with less than 2% distance/fit will show a range of up to ca. 15% Slavic admixture and even lower as more samples are added.

I find this whole idea that the dominance of E-V13 in Albanians as a founder effect matter not convincing at all. It can be true but the chances are slim.
There was a Thessalian-like outlier among the Illyrian samples and a Marche-like outlier. I recommend to not use those when modelling.
I think Bruzmi uses outliers to make E-V13 seem as a founder.

E-V13 in Albanians obviously isn't the result of recent founder effects. He doesn't claim that E-V13 in Albanians is linked to founder effects. He claims the opposite and says that Albanian E-V13 is Proto-Albanian as all lineages found in Cinamak (J-L283, R-CTS1450, R-PF7563 until now) and in Iapygians (J-L283, R-M269 which should include both of our R-M269 main lineages).

Albanians don't have any significant admixture from Thrace. Do the following experiment: add just Alb_Mdv and Bgr_RomByz and a Slavic source in the same model and see what the Albanian average in the official G25 dataset picks up. Bgr_RomByz is extremely low in comparison to Alb_Mdv. Add HRV_Trogir then and you'll see that it'll pick up a part of Alb_Mdv and Bgr_RomByz will disappear entirely. Byz3 is a "pure" early Slav.

Add as proxies for Late Roman Dardania the J-L283 from Viminacium and the E-V13 from Naissus (both just G25 sims, no Davidski coordinates yet):
Roman_Dardania:Naissus:Roman_NaissusR6764-K13-sim,0.1177,0.1597,0.0192,-0.0279,0.0324,-0.0134,0.0011,0.0019,0.005,0.0332,0.002,0.0056,-0.0156,-0.0028,-0.0108,-0.0074,0.0091,0.002,0.0043,-0.0024,-0.0035,0.0007,-0.0001,-0.0028,-0.002
Roman_Dardania:Viminacium:Serbia_Viminacium:R9669___AD_220___Coverage_47.26%,0.1194,0.1457,0.0149,-0.0132,0.0261,-0.0074,-0.0011,0.0023,0.006,0.0119,0.0018,0.0047,-0.0126,-0.0014,-0.008,-0.0056,0.0028,-0.0022,0.0044,-0.0044,-0.0036,0.0016,0.0017,-0.0015,-0.0058

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.5121% / 0.01512097
46.4 ALB_Mdv
22.0 HRV_Trogir_Byz
19.0 Late_Roman_Dardania
12.6 TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3

All three areas have very similar profiles and Albanian E-V13 easily could come from anywhere between Albania, Dardania, west Macedonia, west Serbia/Sandzak and inland Herzegovina and be equally Proto-Albanian as all others. There's no reason to search for Albanian E-V13 in Thrace since neither autosomally, nor linguistically, nor Y-DNA-wise Albanians have any relation to Thrace.

 

[Hawk]

2 ‘Turkish East Meds’ V13 are under PH1246. Same subclade also found in Iron Age Thrace (Rozovo, Bulgaria).

Jesus, some people here seem to be super thick.

Would be good to know whom you are referring and for what because it's confusing.

Clearly, entertain has completely forgotten fhe majority of Balkanic_IA autosomal of E-V13. Also, it's dissapointing from papers refering to Aegean autosomal to Northern Balkans people when the Neolithic derived is far more closer to Chalcolithic Bulgaria and Vinca Middle Neolithic. It looks to me they overly generalize autosomals. If they contextualize the Danubian Neolithic vs Aegean becomes clearer.

 

[Hawk]

Smerdaleos believes Skodra in Illyria was actually "Skudra" as greeks tended to render /u/ as /o/.

Also, Hammond believed the chanelled ware that appears in Gajtan, Shkodra, as well as in central Albania, all the way to Lofkend, to have been the Brygians.

But its clear that Brygians could not have come from balkan-carpathian zone, at best some brygians were pushed south by other migrating northerners

Derite, somehow from recent reveals i am skeptical there will be E-V13 in Iron Age Albania. But if Iron Age yields, it would be great news for Albanians in general.

 

[Hawk]

Bruzmi posted 3 E-V13 samples from ancient Greek city of Himera.

Sicily_Himera_480BCE_lc I17872 E1b1b1a1b1 E-V13 Excluded sister/downstream haplogroups: E-BY5026,E-FT146201,E-Y81971,E-Y92017,E-BY20074,E-Y138701,E-Z38770,E-BY5814,E-A779
Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2 I10946 E1b1b1a1b1a15a~ Excluded sister/downstream haplogroups: E-BY6357* E-BY6357+:BY6357(15728070G>T:T)
Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2 I10950 E1b1b1a1b1a6a~ Excluded sister/downstream haplogroups : E-CTS6377* E-BY95428,E-CTS9320

After all, it looks like Dorians had E-V13. But, the quote from paper is interesting:

Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2 consists of two outlying individuals (I10946/W1771 and I10950/W814) that fall on the PCA intermediate between the main cluster and central European individuals, a differentiation also indicated by the relatively higher proportion of the WHG genetic cluster in ADMIXTURE. Testing a wide range of possible BA and IA sources with qpAdm, valid models of ancestry consist of mixtures of one source related to central or eastern Mediterranean groups (Sicilian, Aegean, or Balkan) and one source related to central or western European groups (France, Spain, Czechia, or Hungary). A genetic origin in the Balkans is suggested by their Y chromosomes, belonging to the E-V13 lineage, which has its highest modern-day frequency in that region (67).

Wondering what do they suggest? That they were not ancient Greek but newcomers from somewhere else? How possible is this scenario? But i am leaning toward Dorian theory.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

It's not a matter of what I believe in, the sample is **radiocarbon dated**. This is an objective reality which you can't dismiss. Learn what radiocarbon dating is because this is becoming embarrassing on your part. Of course, the only historical model which makes sense is one which includes just early medieval averages (including Slavs). Trying to build models which go below ~1.5% distance just to get a lower distance is pointless because in terms of quality it either means nothing at all or actively makes the model worse because of the huge overlap.

At the very least, are you now starting to realize that Albanians have only low Slavic admixture? Overlap or no overlap models with less than 2% distance/fit will show a range of up to ca. 15% Slavic admixture and even lower as more samples are added.

I am not questioning radiocarbon reading, it does matter if they radiocarboned the right bone, you want to keep arguing like a Middle Eastern keep it up, show the people how European you are. I am sure the Montenegrin sample was also radiocarboned, but it's clearly Slavic, whether intentionally or by mistake. I have no problem if this is brought up to the real Gs in this forum. There is no chance this person is modern, I checked it a million times.

Albs do not have low Slavic, unless you believe Croats should score 70% EST_Baltic. 19-20% is considerable and understandable.

E-V13 in Albanians obviously isn't the result of recent founder effects. He doesn't claim that E-V13 in Albanians is linked to founder effects. He claims the opposite and says that Albanian E-V13 is Proto-Albanian as all lineages found in Cinamak (J-L283, R-CTS1450, R-PF7563 until now) and in Iapygians (J-L283, R-M269 which should include both of our R-M269 main lineages).

Albanians don't have any significant admixture from Thrace. Do the following experiment: add just Alb_Mdv and Bgr_RomByz and a Slavic source in the same model and see what the Albanian average in the official G25 dataset picks up. Bgr_RomByz is extremely low in comparison to Alb_Mdv. Add HRV_Trogir then and you'll see that it'll pick up a part of Alb_Mdv and Bgr_RomByz will disappear entirely. Byz3 is a "pure" early Slav.

Add as proxies for Late Roman Dardania the J-L283 from Viminacium and the E-V13 from Naissus (both just G25 sims, no Davidski coordinates yet):
Roman_Dardania:Naissus:Roman_NaissusR6764-K13-sim,0.1177,0.1597,0.0192,-0.0279,0.0324,-0.0134,0.0011,0.0019,0.005,0.0332,0.002,0.0056,-0.0156,-0.0028,-0.0108,-0.0074,0.0091,0.002,0.0043,-0.0024,-0.0035,0.0007,-0.0001,-0.0028,-0.002
Roman_Dardania:Viminacium:Serbia_Viminacium:R9669___AD_220___Coverage_47.26%,0.1194,0.1457,0.0149,-0.0132,0.0261,-0.0074,-0.0011,0.0023,0.006,0.0119,0.0018,0.0047,-0.0126,-0.0014,-0.008,-0.0056,0.0028,-0.0022,0.0044,-0.0044,-0.0036,0.0016,0.0017,-0.0015,-0.0058

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.5121% / 0.01512097
46.4 ALB_Mdv
22.0 HRV_Trogir_Byz
19.0 Late_Roman_Dardania
12.6 TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3

Let me use your own words against you. Your model is utter trash, garbage. Trogir are loaded with ME, you are doing what I did, but you are doing it intentionally. Those Trogir Illyrians are basically Thracian like because of MENA mixture. Basically a dumb model, because you can model Romanians with that pre-Slavic mixture just as well and with good confidence. BTW Serbia R9669 has Illyrian profile, not same as Nish. A genuine E-V13 Illyrian.

All three areas have very similar profiles and Albanian E-V13 easily could come from anywhere between Albania, Dardania, west Macedonia, west Serbia/Sandzak and inland Herzegovina and be equally Proto-Albanian as all others. There's no reason to search for Albanian E-V13 in Thrace since neither autosomally, nor linguistically, nor Y-DNA-wise Albanians have any relation to Thrace.

Probably Hiding on the Drina river, it's a major conspiracy against muh Illyrianism.

 

[Johane Derite]

Bruzmi posted 3 E-V13 samples from ancient Greek city of Himera.

Sicily_Himera_480BCE_lc I17872 E1b1b1a1b1 E-V13 Excluded sister/downstream haplogroups: E-BY5026,E-FT146201,E-Y81971,E-Y92017,E-BY20074,E-Y138701,E-Z38770,E-BY5814,E-A779
Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2 I10946 E1b1b1a1b1a15a~ Excluded sister/downstream haplogroups: E-BY6357* E-BY6357+:BY6357(15728070G>T:T)
Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2 I10950 E1b1b1a1b1a6a~ Excluded sister/downstream haplogroups : E-CTS6377* E-BY95428,E-CTS9320

After all, it looks like Dorians had E-V13. But, the quote from paper is interesting:



Wondering what do they suggest? That they were not ancient Greek but newcomers from somewhere else? How possible is this scenario? But i am leaning toward Dorian theory.

Lol, he's also straight away trying to do some damage control:

"The fact that they have quite different profiles to each other as well strongly suggests that by the EIA, different E-V13 clades were part of very different populations and profiles."

 

[broder]

Would be good to know whom you are referring and for what because it's confusing.

Clearly, entertain has completely forgotten fhe majority of Balkanic_IA autosomal of E-V13. Also, it's dissapointing from papers refering to Aegean autosomal to Northern Balkans people when the Neolithic derived is far more closer to Chalcolithic Bulgaria and Vinca Middle Neolithic. It looks to me they overly generalize autosomals. If they contextualize the Danubian Neolithic vs Aegean becomes clearer.

I am referring to him, obviously.

He is misunderstanding that actually, he thinks the Balkans IA cluster is pred NE. He is confusing Balkan Neolithic that makes up the chunk of Balkans IA cluster with NE, referred to in that paper.

Hence why I am not a big fan of these autosomal models. Look at Paleo chasing his tale around lol

I only focus on Y chromosomes - exact science basically.

 

[Hawk]

Lol, he's also straight away trying to do some damage control:

"The fact that they have quite different profiles to each other as well strongly suggests that by the EIA, different E-V13 clades were part of very different populations and profiles."

Just read that Himera was partially found from settlers from Chalcidic Greece, that's in ancient Macedonia? Would make sense. One thing which is suprising me, could the "legendary" Pelasgians after all be E-V13 lol? Gimbutas was hypothesing the Pelasgians were Grla-Mara/Dubovac Zuto Brdo invaders during the LBA turmoil. It's an hypothesis on the air of course, or the E-V13 were natives in that zone. Confusing at this point. I am stuck between this and Balkan-Carpathian hemisphere.