Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

This is relevant for history because it means that Albanian was already linguisticaly branched off or was branching off with its distinctive linguistic features of its own in the second half of the second millenium BC.

These are good conditions to assume some form of in-group bias that would have existed based on being a speaker of this language branch, an ethnic and tribal identity associated with this branch, possibly a compact material culture associated with it.

So at around the time of the Trojan war, bronze age collapse, Albanian as a separate branch existed already, like mycenean greek did for example, which means that it is possible that the ethnic group that spoke this dialect was also recorded among some of the balkan tribes.
 
From later on in this paper, Matzinger argues that Albanian cannot be Thracian, but must be a separate language:

Here he adds:

"Nimmt man diese Grundzüge des phonologischen Systems des Thrakischen als gegeben und zieht sie zum Vergleich mit dem phonologischen System des Frühuralbanischen wie es in Pkt. 4 dargestellt wurde heran, so stechen zwei Merkmale hervor, die bei diesem Vergleich zu einer Diskrepanz führen.

Während im Thrakischen die ‘Satem-Entwicklung’ der idg. Palatale wie es scheint früh zu Sibilanten geführt hat, liegen hingegen bei der Fortsetzung dieser idg. Phoneme im zeitlich vergleichbaren Frühuralbanischen ganz deutlich Affrikaten

Instruktiver als die Vertretung der idg. Palatale ist allerdings die Fortführung der idg. Labiovelare, die im Thrakischen klar den Verlust des labialen Bestandteils zeigen Auch wenn zu einem bestimmten Zeitpunkt in der Geschichte des Frühuralbanischen das labiale Element gleichfalls aufgegeben wurde, so zeigt sich gerade in der Stellung vor hohen Vokalen eine Entwicklung zu frühuralban. */j/ (später zu /z/ gewandelt), die nur auf der Basis */ghe/ mit dem noch bewahrten labialem Element verständlich ist.

Die unterschiedliche Vertretung von thrak. /ge-/ gegenüber frühuralban. */je-/ kann nun aber nicht einfach als Dialektunterschied éiner Sprache aufgefasst werden, sondern nur als eine grundsätzlich unterschiedliche (kombinatorische) Veränderung eines Phonems in zwei auch unterschiedlichen und daher auch unabhängigen Sprachen."


Google translated:



"If one takes these basic features of the phonological system of Thracian as a given and uses them for comparison with the phonological system of Early Proto-Albanian as shown in point 4, two features stand out which lead to a discrepancy in this comparison.


While in Thracian the ‘Satem development’ of the Indo-European palatals, it seems, led to sibilants early on, the continuation of these Indo-European phonemes in the Early Proto-Albanian, which is comparable in time, clearly led to affricates.

More instructive than the representation of the common palatal is, however, the continuation of the common labiovelar, which clearly shows the loss of the labial component in Thracian the position in front of high vowels a development which in Early Proto Albanian. * / j / (later changed to / z /), can only be understood on the basis of * / ghe / with the still preserved labial element.

The different representation of Thracian. /ge-/ as opposed to Early Proto-Albanian. */je-/cannot simply be understood as a dialect difference of a language, but only as a fundamentally different (combinatorial) change of a phoneme in two different and therefore also independent languages."




So to summarise:

Thracian: IE palatals became sibilants
Early Proto-Albanian: IE palatals became affricates

Thracian: Loss of labial component
Early Proto-Albanian: Preserved labial component
 
Matzinger also considers Albanian independent branch from Illyrian:

Google translated:

“Since there are two fundamentally different phoneme systems between Illyrian and Proto-Albanian, there are also two different languages.


On the basis of these facts, it is possible, even inevitable, to reject the hypothesis that the Albanian language has a linear origin from ancient Illyrian.


Rather, Albanian can be seen as a continuant of an independent Old Balkan idiom that is independent of Illyrian and that ultimately escaped Romanization and Slavicization and has thus retained its linguistic independence to this day.”




Pg 84
“Der Lateinisch-Albanisch Sprachkontakt und seine Implikationen fur die Vorgeschichte des Albanischen und der Albaner”
Joachim Matzinger

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Matzinger also considers Albanian independent branch from Illyrian:

Google translated:

“Since there are two fundamentally different phoneme systems between Illyrian and Proto-Albanian, there are also two different languages.


On the basis of these facts, it is possible, even inevitable, to reject the hypothesis that the Albanian language has a linear origin from ancient Illyrian.


Rather, Albanian can be seen as a continuant of an independent Old Balkan idiom that is independent of Illyrian and that ultimately escaped Romanization and Slavicization and has thus retained its linguistic independence to this day.”




Pg 84
“Der Lateinisch-Albanisch Sprachkontakt und seine Implikationen fur die Vorgeschichte des Albanischen und der Albaner”
Joachim Matzinger

To summarise his main argument:

Whereas Illyrian had /ó/, Early Proto-Albanian lacked this vowel entirely.

Whereas Illyrian had the IE /sk/, Early Proto-Albanian had instead /x/.
 
From where does Matzinger get the Illyrian words? Which region and tribe? From whom, ancient authors mentioning names of tribes or random words spelled in Latin or Greek?

How can you confidently categorize Illyrian when there?s almost no written Illyrian?
 
From where does Matzinger get the Illyrian words? Which region and tribe? From whom, ancient authors mentioning names of tribes or random words spelled in Latin or Greek?

How can you confidently categorize Illyrian when there�s almost no written Illyrian?

Σκόδρα (scodra) is one example, unless the argument is that this is not an Illyrian toponym, it is a legitimate argument.
 
What?s non Illyrian-like about Skodra/Shkodra?
 
What�s non Illyrian-like about Skodra/Shkodra?

I didn't say Scodra is non-Illyrian, I said that linguists argue it is non-Albanian phonetically.
 
So, does Matzinger find any toponyms that DO match Albanian phonetic evolution?

He argues that the transformation of Naissos into Niš and Astibos into Štip plausibly fits proto-Albanian sound laws.


Also, Sharr mountains as possibly having etymology related to Alb. Sharrë (saw) for which he compares Spanish. sierra (mountain range) from Latin. serra (saw).


Such phonetic changes would have required proto-Albanian speakers to have lived in these places for at least a couple of centuries, and south slavs to then learn these placenames from them.

We can therefore attempt to delineate a minimal possible zone of a proto-Albanian speaking enclave between these three points at least for a couple of centuries before Slav migrations into this region.

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We can therefore attempt to delineate a minimal possible zone of a proto-Albanian speaking enclave between these three points at least for a couple of centuries before Slav migrations into this region.

In the centuries preceding the Slavic migrations we do know of at least three famous locals from within this triangle:


Constantine the Great
Justin I
Justinian the Great

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In the centuries preceding the Slavic migrations we do know of at least three famous locals from within this triangle:

Procopius also explicitly writes that Justinian the Great sprang among the "Dardanians of Europe"

“Among the Dardanians of Europe who live beyond the boundaries of the Epidamnians, close to the fortress which is called Bederiana, there was a hamlet named Taurisium, whence sprang the Emperor Justinian, the founder of the civilised world.​"





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The problem is that Albanian has very early Latin loanwords from the 2nd century BC and it took like 200 more years until the Romans conquered the Dardanians.

In addition, I think it was you yourself who posted the finding of Albanoid words in 7th century BC Laconian dialect of Doric. I don?t assume you believe that the Dardanians influenced the Dorians too who were said to have lived around Epirus and Macedonia.

Thirdly, Albanians even self identified as Epirotes and even Macedonians (stemming from the regions created by the Romans) and coincidentally the highest concentration of Albanian toponyms is in North Albania.

Last but not least, Kosovo Albanian dialect is the most uniform of all indicating a later spread/boom whereas the Albanian from Albania is so diverse that it?s literally inexplicable how so many differences can be found in such a small territory.

It looks to me that Albania proper had at least 2-3 Albanoid ?languages? that merged with each other in time, also receiving influences from the direction of Kosovo. But no way in hell Kosovo/Dardania Albanian dialect could give birth to the unique forms of Albania proper. It?s too different.

But Matzinger wouldn?t know this cause he?s a foreigner after all. You need to be a local to be able to go a step further and fairly analyze the situation.
 
But no way in hell Kosovo/Dardania Albanian dialect could give birth to the unique forms of Albania proper. It�s too different.
But Matzinger wouldn�t know this cause he�s a foreigner after all. You need to be a local to be able to go a step further and fairly analyze the situation.
Nobody is arguing that the "Kosovo dialect" (Northeast Gegë) "gave birth" to all the other dialects.
It seems you have grave confusions about what is even being discussed.
 
Perhaps because there?s few Kosovo Albanians who support the theory that Albanian developed somewhere in Moesia/Dardania and spread South of the Jirecek Line.

If that isn?t the case with you then my apologies.
 
Papazoglu suggested that unique variations of Illyrian and Thracian names that only appeared in Dardanian regions as well as unique non-Illyrian and non-Thracian names that showed up in the Dardanian regions suggested a third non-Illyrian, non-Thracian language substrate.


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Papazoglu suggested that unique variations of Illyrian and Thracian names that only appeared in Dardanian regions as well as unique non-Illyrian and non-Thracian names that showed up in the Dardanian regions suggested a third non-Illyrian, non-Thracian language substrate.


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Categorizing names when there?s barely any linguistic evidence on the aforementioned languages sounds like a big pile of garbage to me.

They have a list of 100% of the exclusive Illyrian and Thracian names? And few of these Dardanian names do not show up in their exclusive dictionary?

Or, let me guess, they study the names based on the characteristics and structure of the language? Whose characteristics are they studying in this case, those of 2 mysterious and dead languages?

Studying Illyrian and Thracian and writing books about them at this point reminds of me ex-Yugoslavs acting as polyglots by putting in their CVs - Fluent in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin, Macedonian*, Slovenian*, and English. Same with these linguist nobodies trying to make a name studying inexistent languages and coming to exaggerated conclusions.
 
Same with these linguist nobodies trying to make a name studying inexistent languages and coming to exaggerated conclusions.

Scodra, Scerdilaidis, Scerviaidus, etc, are all illyrian names of people or towns that obviously have /sk/ cluster.

Albanian obviously had its /sk/ cluster become /h/ as in hedh, hardhucë, hudhër etc, so we know that the /sk/ was lost long long ago in early-proto-Albanian history.

I wonder what your contribution to Albanian science has been to call these these linguists nobodies?

Matzinger & Shumacher have published thousands of pages of scientific content on the Albanian language, they meticulously studied all the Old Albanian texts and made etymological dictionaries for them, etc.
 
The problem is that Albanian has very early Latin loanwords from the 2nd century BC and it took like 200 more years until the Romans conquered the Dardanians.

This isn't accurate. Albanian doesn't have latin loans that date to before the Latin invasion of the balkans.

Secondly, Albanian has few latin loans from the earliest period, and most from the middle period, which is later.

Thirdly, Dardanians were conquered more or less the same time as the rest of the balkans (167 BC).

Here you have Dardanians in 167 BC requesting the return of Paeonia to their borders from the Romans. I found this quote very interesting for many reasons, mainly why they asked for Paeonia, and not Scodra, etc. Keep in mind, Shtip fell within Paeonia.

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In addition, I think it was you yourself who posted the finding of Albanoid words in 7th century BC Laconian dialect of Doric. I don�t assume you believe that the Dardanians influenced the Dorians too who were said to have lived around Epirus and Macedonia.

Firstly, Dardanians were neighbours with the Macedonians, the earliest mention we have with Dardanians come from constantly being on the border with them and invading macedonians etc. They also invaded epirus under Bardylis, so epirus was not out of reach of the dardanians.

Secondly, since we know their were neither dardanians nor illyrians in laconia, then these loans must have happened at an earlier stage of doric i.e. before they were in laconia, or were related to trade from the north or something. This argument is not in favour of illyrians anymore than dardanians.

Thirdly, Albanians even self identified as Epirotes and even Macedonians (stemming from the regions created by the Romans) and coincidentally the highest concentration of Albanian toponyms is in North Albania.

Albanians defined as such because this was the medieval renaissance culture and antiquarian tendencies of byzantine administrators.

The earliest Albanian to speak for our origins is Marin Barleti, who wrote that we came to the Balkans with Hercules from Alba longa (mt Alban). Alba longa was founded by Aeneas' son Ascanius. Aeneas was leader of the Dardanoi in myth. But Marin Barleti also called us Epirotes, because we lived in Epirus Nova, the administrative region.

He called Croatians Illyrians, Bulgarians Triballians, and in the medieval period this was common for Croatians to be known as Illyrians, Bulgarians or Serbians as Triballians, etc. It was a form of Larping to be honest.

So this cannot be used as a good argument unless you also wanna argue Croatians are Illyrians, etc.
 
and coincidentally the highest concentration of Albanian toponyms is in North Albania.

Yes, but this toponymy at the earliest confirmed so far begins around ~300's - 400's AD. Albania and North Albania obviously is the epicentre of the Proto-Albanian -> Albanian transformation, but this is not an argument for where the proto-Albanian urheimat was.


It looks to me that Albania proper had at least 2-3 Albanoid �languages� that merged with each other in time, also receiving influences from the direction of Kosovo. But no way in hell Kosovo/Dardania Albanian dialect could give birth to the unique forms of Albania proper. It�s too different.

The Albanian dialects are not that diverse considering the large territory they are spread out across. This suggests a relatively recent common expansion rather than a long time of in situ development. Tosk and Gegë are not too different from a macro scale and must have been one language in the early first half of the first millenium AD.

If proto-Albanian comes from Dardanian regions (shtip-sharr-nish triangle) then this wouldn't make Albanian a dialect that came from the modern Kosovo dialect. It would make Tosk, Northwest Gegë, Northeast Gegë, etc all brother dialects of the same Dardanian parent that spread west and expanded in Albania.

But Matzinger wouldn�t know this cause he�s a foreigner after all. You need to be a local to be able to go a step further and fairly analyze the situation.

This is like saying a surgeon doesn't know how to perform surgery on my body better than me. If i had to perform surgery on my organs, I would have no clue what to do. Matzinger is a specialist of the Albanian language and knows a lot about it, so his arguments have to be taken seriously. If you don't agree with them, at least provide an argument and not just try to evade by saying he is a foreigner.
 
Yes, but this toponymy at the earliest confirmed so far begins around ~300's - 400's AD. Albania and North Albania obviously is the epicentre of the Proto-Albanian -> Albanian transformation, but this is not an argument for where the proto-Albanian urheimat was.




The Albanian dialects are not that diverse considering the large territory they are spread out across. This suggests a relatively recent common expansion rather than a long time of in situ development. Tosk and Gegë are not too different from a macro scale and must have been one language in the early first half of the first millenium AD.

If proto-Albanian comes from Dardanian regions (shtip-sharr-nish triangle) then this wouldn't make Albanian a dialect that came from the modern Kosovo dialect. It would make Tosk, Northwest Gegë, Northeast Gegë, etc all brother dialects of the same Dardanian parent that spread west and expanded in Albania.



This is like saying a surgeon doesn't know how to perform surgery on my body better than me. If i had to perform surgery on my organs, I would have no clue what to do. Matzinger is a specialist of the Albanian language and knows a lot about it, so his arguments have to be taken seriously. If you don't agree with them, at least provide an argument and not just try to evade by saying he is a foreigner.

Clearly the language came out of Dardania and paeonian area ........this is also due to the fact that Cassander ( king of Macedonia ) destroyed forever the Taulantii tribe ( never to be seen or heard again in history ) of North albania in 314 BC .........but he first took the area of central and south albania ( apollonia and Butrint ) before taking Durres ........he finally had access to the Aegean and Adriatic seas ...........he quickly moved troops and families from Pella, Thessally and souther Paeonian lands to these areas of Albania.

The macedonians never had any issues in albania until the roman took durres at the start of the hannibal wars ( as macedonia was an ally of hannibal ) the first roman-macedonia war of 197BC was the beginning of roman annexation of albanian lands from the macedonian empire

So 4 to 6 generations of macedonian, thessalian and Paeonian people living in coastal albania before any "roman " or Italic families moving there
 

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