Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

History has been written from the interest of some who have tried to dominate old populations in their places... This subject has become very confusing. It gives me the impression of making a scenario for an imaginary video game without clear arguments about language and genetics.
The history of East Europe but especially Balkans is a total mess.
In the history of this region there is always a binomial, Vlachs and Albanians. Unfortunately these two peoples could not exploit the right moment, because there was a moment in history when these two peoples could do something interesting. There was the money, there was the military power, but there was no vision and political leadership. Also the weight of the great powers was too great.
For example i was reading something in Wiki few days ago:

Katerini

Katerini (Greek: Κατερίνη, Kateríni, pronounced [ka̠te̞ˈɾiɲi]) is a city in Central Macedonia, Greece, the capital of Pieria regional unit. It lies on the Pierian plain, between Mt. Olympus and the Thermaikos Gulf, at an altitude of 14 m. The city has a population of 85,851 (according to the 2014 census) and it is the second most populous urban area at the Region of Macedonia after Thessaloniki.
According to the reports of travellers, at the turn of the 19th century, the city had four to five thousand inhabitants, mostly Greeks. In 1806, William Martin Leake recorded 100 hearths, while four years later Daniel recorded 140. For the remainder of the 19th century, the number of homes remained steady at about 300, with a population in 1900 of 2,070 Greek Orthodox mostly Vlah, and 600 Muslims, most of them of Albanian origin.[2]
The city was captured by the Greek 7th Infantry Division on 16 October 1912, during the First Balkan War, and has been part of Greece since then.[2] With the population exchange between Greece and Turkey in 1923, the city's Muslims left, and Greek refugees, particularly from Eastern Thrace and Greek Evangelicals from Asia Minor, took their place, almost doubling the city's population from 5,540 in 1920 to 10,138 in 1928.[2]
Without investigating of how much accurate are the data about demography of this city, clearly was an Vlach-Albanian city. Later, the natives, Vlachs were assimilated and Albanians were expelled. People arrived as refugees from Asia are now the natives in that city. This is simply a small story of many other realities like these.
 
Famous Serbian Linguist believed Albanian language to be descendant of a Pre-Greek IE language in the Aegean and Balkans.


Milan Budimir was professor emeritus of classical languages at the university of Belgrade.

Pg 64


"Budimir accepts Pedersen's law and believes that Albanian, distinguishing the three series of Indo-European stops, continues the oldest linguistic stratum in the Balkan and that the Pre-Greek Indo-European language belonged to the same family. This he tries to prove by establishing Greek loan words of Pre-Greek origin which distinguish also the three kinds of lndo-European velar stops.


According to Budimir, such loan words are for instance:


(see image)


they show an assibilation of both Indo-European palatals and labio-velars. Budimir therefore postulates a special relationship between the Pre-Greek Indo-European language and modern Albanian. In this he follows von Hahn and Thomopulos who thought that Albanian was a modern form of the ancient Pelasgian language.


Pg 63


"Milan Budimir, professor emeritus of classical languages at the university of Belgrade, believes that the Pre-Greek population of the Aegean area was very mixed ethnically and linguistically and that among this population there was also an Indo-European layer belonging to a special branch of this family in which all three series of velar stops (the palatals, the pure velars, and the labio-velars) were preserved as distinct phonemes. Such an Indo-European language is Albanian if Pedersen is right in postulating a sound law to the effect that Indo-European labio-velars are assibilated in Albanian before front vowels while pure velars remain unchanged in this position :


Alb. pjek 'I fry' < IE *pekwo
Alb. pese 'five' < IE *penkwe
Alb. sy 'eyes' < IE *okwe


but


Alb. kohe 'time' < IE *kesa


Pg 70


"It should be stressed, however, that although Budimir
appears as a champion of pre-classical Indo-Europeanism he never denied the existence of a still older non-Indo-European linguistic stratum in the Aegean area and the whole Mediterranean. "


Gv9csaK.png
 
The history of East Europe but especially Balkans is a total mess.
In the history of this region there is always a binomial, Vlachs and Albanians. Unfortunately these two peoples could not exploit the right moment, because there was a moment in history when these two peoples could do something interesting. There was the money, there was the military power, but there was no vision and political leadership. Also the weight of the great powers was too great.
For example i was reading something in Wiki few days ago:

Katerini


Without investigating of how much accurate are the data about demography of this city, clearly was an Vlach-Albanian city. Later, the natives, Vlachs were assimilated and Albanians were expelled. People arrived as refugees from Asia are now the natives in that city. This is simply a small story of many other realities like these.

Only Katerini did exist as you describe it,

It was an army camp of 7000 Turk-Albanians and 3000 Turks,
protecting the land-owners of the fertile land,

The first non Turks were Greeks from Egypt came at 1860
That is why it is named Aikaterne,

The description you write, as also in Pukevill is about Hatera, a village outside of what is Katerini,


So your ignorance as big as your 'Superiority'

As for Albanians and Vlachs,

I suggest read kasomoulis,
Who Stop Ali Pasha,

bye bye 'superior being'

BTW
The first habitants non Turks habitants of Katerini were Greeks from Egypt at 1860
St AIKATERINE SINAI

as for city, it was nothing more than a mahalla,
population was elsewhere.


Now to your scientific demographics

The 10 000 m2 that Turks owned divided to refuggees

Yes The city is 66% made by Refuggees of 1920's
BUT THE VILLAGES NOT,
THE PREFERACTURE IS 60% LOCAL PRE 1920 POPULATION,
THE LOCAL THAT KICKED ALI-PASHA,
LIBERATED THE ARVANITES OF EYVOIA,
MADE THE OLYMPUS NTAIFA
AND THE MOST NOUMEROUS BLACK SHIPS

AHAHAHAHA
Again you seem to play as a loser does.




 
The history of East Europe but especially Balkans is a total mess.
In the history of this region there is always a binomial, Vlachs and Albanians. Unfortunately these two peoples could not exploit the right moment, because there was a moment in history when these two peoples could do something interesting. There was the money, there was the military power, but there was no vision and political leadership.

Omg i agree so much with this, the thing i was always mad to albania's history is why albanians had this fis system instead of a king with a centralized state, with the military power we had we could write history, imagine how many conquests, how much we could develop our language creating cognates of our own, industrial, technological, scientifical terminology, how much we could effect other languages, and what kind of empires we could create, but why didn't those kokfort unite and have a little bit of ambition.

When the albanian tryhards something he always achieves a lot, better than anyone, no one can reach as far as the shqipe, but this never happens cuz of his lack of ambition.
 
Famous Serbian Linguist believed Albanian language to be descendant of a Pre-Greek IE language in the Aegean and Balkans.


Milan Budimir was professor emeritus of classical languages at the university of Belgrade.

Pg 64


"Budimir accepts Pedersen's law and believes that Albanian, distinguishing the three series of Indo-European stops, continues the oldest linguistic stratum in the Balkan and that the Pre-Greek Indo-European language belonged to the same family. This he tries to prove by establishing Greek loan words of Pre-Greek origin which distinguish also the three kinds of lndo-European velar stops.


According to Budimir, such loan words are for instance:


(see image)


they show an assibilation of both Indo-European palatals and labio-velars. Budimir therefore postulates a special relationship between the Pre-Greek Indo-European language and modern Albanian. In this he follows von Hahn and Thomopulos who thought that Albanian was a modern form of the ancient Pelasgian language.


Pg 63


"Milan Budimir, professor emeritus of classical languages at the university of Belgrade, believes that the Pre-Greek population of the Aegean area was very mixed ethnically and linguistically and that among this population there was also an Indo-European layer belonging to a special branch of this family in which all three series of velar stops (the palatals, the pure velars, and the labio-velars) were preserved as distinct phonemes. Such an Indo-European language is Albanian if Pedersen is right in postulating a sound law to the effect that Indo-European labio-velars are assibilated in Albanian before front vowels while pure velars remain unchanged in this position :


Alb. pjek 'I fry' < IE *pekwo
Alb. pese 'five' < IE *penkwe
Alb. sy 'eyes' < IE *okwe


but


Alb. kohe 'time' < IE *kesa


Pg 70


"It should be stressed, however, that although Budimir
appears as a champion of pre-classical Indo-Europeanism he never denied the existence of a still older non-Indo-European linguistic stratum in the Aegean area and the whole Mediterranean. "


Gv9csaK.png


@ DERITE

READ YOU POST US

''BUDIMIR POSTPULATES .... von Han and Thomopoulos''

Only Thomopoulos mixed the celtic and driven his work to Atopon,
same with von Han,

What you write is that Budimir so an aspiration that was considered pre-Greek to him following Van han and Thomopoulos to a pelasgian pre-Greek IE,

Now to end from the copy you post

BUDIMIR NEVER DENIED THE EXISTANCE OF A STILL OLDER NON IE LINGUISTIC STRATUM IN AEGEAN.


offcourse,
that is Why most modern linguists place proto-Greek above Mycenean and Minoan,
it is not a secret anymore the evolution from NW Greek dialects who are more close to LPIE
to the Southern Greek and koine to end,

there are 2 aspirations that happen mostly in Greek,
due to that,

SO you post us nothing,
except that Budimir fall to the same hole that van Han and Thomopoulos did
to consider Albanian = Pelasgian (especially Thomopoulos who belived that celtic remnants were Pelasgika)

AND THAT ALBANIAN IS A SATEM2 LANGUAGE,

Thank Derite

it is already known that Albanian is Satem 2, as Also Armenian
kw ->> s
but
K+strong ->>> K




@ DERITE

I AM GRATEFULL,

YOU HAVE POST WHAT I CLAIM ALL THIS TIME,
ALBANIAN DID NOT FINISHED SATEMIZATION,
Why? I can not answer yet that.

THANK YOU

I BOW TO YOUR KINDNESS.


infact k+strong, t+strong maybe has something common with Anatolian languages, or neolithic languages,
search it, who knows,
 
Albanian is not a satem. This IE language that Budmir found loanwords of in Greek is a Non Greek one that like he said:

"the Pre-Greek population of the Aegean area was very mixed ethnically and linguistically and that among this population there was also an Indo-European layer belonging to a special branch of this family in which all three series of velar stops (the palatals, the pure velars, and the labio-velars) were preserved as distinct phonemes. Such an Indo-European language is Albanian"


He is very clear, Albanian IE is Pre-Greek.

And as for the "Satem" Albanian, that is not true and a something that people without any linguistic awareness spread around:


"Albanian shows developments of the three Indo-European dorsals that are much too complex to be interpreted by the crude and false satem—centum dichotomy "


Basic Albanian Etymologies
by Martin Huld


The mere presence of affricated or assibilated reflexes of Indo-European dorsals is insufficient grounds for the Satem classification; English, Frisian, French or Spanish could equally be called Satem on this basis. The Satem languages ( here used only of Indo-Iranian, Baltic, and Slavic ) are characterized by sibilant or in the case of the Kafiri languages, affricated reflexes of the Indo-European palatals and the concomitant, unconditioned merging of the Indo-European pure— and labio-velars. This trait is shared by Armenian, but labiovelars after *u are delabialized and merge with the Indo-European palatals in Armenian but not in Indo-Iranian, Baltic and Slavic. Unlike the other languages, Armenian delabialization must have preceded affrication of palatals in Armenian.


Albanian does not merge the pure- and labio-velars before original front vowels; this distinguishes it from the more narrowly defined Satem languages. The Satem languages, as well as Greek and Armenian, distinguish palatals plus *u from the labiovelar. In having s and z from all palatals plus *u and from labiovelars before *i and front vowels, Albanian matches neither the Satem languages nor the others where these sounds merge under all conditions. A third feature shared by Indo-Iranian, Baltic, and Slavic is the retraction of *s after r, u, k, and i. Albanian shows no special treatment of *s after these sounds that is not consistent with the Albanian treatment of *s elsewhere; we must reject Pedersen's conclusion (1895c:83) that the neofinal retraction of *s to sh has any relation to this 'Satem' feature.


The most striking feature that separates Albanian from the Satem languages is the environmentally conditioned depalatalization of Indo-European palatals before non-vocalic resonants . This feature, a corollary to the Albanian neutralization of palatals before non-vocalic sounds, is entirely absent in Indo-Iranian and Armenian and quite different from the internal variation found in Baltic and Slavic, eg Lith akmuõ ‘stone' , ãšmenys 'edge (of a tool)’ both from *Aekmen-, cf Shevelov (1965:141—45) . Kortlandt (1978) attempted to link the sporadic Baltic-Slavic failure to assibilate Indo-European palatals to the regular preconsonantal neutralization seen in Albanian, but his arguments are less than persuasive. The palatal in both akmuõ and ãšmenys must have always stood before consonantal *m. Analogy provides no rational explanation for this divergence. The Baltic and Slavic variation may, like English ditch: :dyke reflect a now suppressed dialect variation. Fluctuation of reflexes between palatal stops and affricates is a feature observed in many languages. Dialects of Carrier, Ahtena and Koyukon, Athapaskan languages of Canada and Alaska, show both /kY/ and / tš/ for Proto—Athapaskan *k (Hoijer 1963:13-17) .


Pg 160, Basic Albanian Etymologies
by Martin Huld
 
@ Derite

Why I read something Different in your post

'Budimir never denied a linguistic stractum of a non IE in Aegean'

he avoided the mistake of Thomopoulos who believed that Albanian = pelasgianand Yes Albanian is SATEM 2, as Armenian,


as for Huld,
I already gave a video of Zolotas
English has the biggest Greek vocabulary
Was English created nearby Proto-Greek?


As for Albanian is or not Satem
it is your copy you provide us,

kw->>> s
but 'κ -->>> Κ not S as in other satem

that is why is a Satem language of its own.
 
Last edited:
Albanian is not a satem. This IE language that Budmir found loanwords of in Greek is a Non Greek one that like he said:
"the Pre-Greek population of the Aegean area was very mixed ethnically and linguistically and that among this population there was also an Indo-European layer belonging to a special branch of this family in which all three series of velar stops (the palatals, the pure velars, and the labio-velars) were preserved as distinct phonemes. Such an Indo-European language is Albanian"
He is very clear, Albanian IE is Pre-Greek.
And as for the "Satem" Albanian, that is not true and a something that people without any linguistic awareness spread around:
"Albanian shows developments of the three Indo-European dorsals that are much too complex to be interpreted by the crude and false satem—centum dichotomy "
Basic Albanian Etymologies
by Martin Huld
The mere presence of affricated or assibilated reflexes of Indo-European dorsals is insufficient grounds for the Satem classification; English, Frisian, French or Spanish could equally be called Satem on this basis. The Satem languages ( here used only of Indo-Iranian, Baltic, and Slavic ) are characterized by sibilant or in the case of the Kafiri languages, affricated reflexes of the Indo-European palatals and the concomitant, unconditioned merging of the Indo-European pure— and labio-velars. This trait is shared by Armenian, but labiovelars after *u are delabialized and merge with the Indo-European palatals in Armenian but not in Indo-Iranian, Baltic and Slavic. Unlike the other languages, Armenian delabialization must have preceded affrication of palatals in Armenian.
Albanian does not merge the pure- and labio-velars before original front vowels; this distinguishes it from the more narrowly defined Satem languages. The Satem languages, as well as Greek and Armenian, distinguish palatals plus *u from the labiovelar. In having s and z from all palatals plus *u and from labiovelars before *i and front vowels, Albanian matches neither the Satem languages nor the others where these sounds merge under all conditions. A third feature shared by Indo-Iranian, Baltic, and Slavic is the retraction of *s after r, u, k, and i. Albanian shows no special treatment of *s after these sounds that is not consistent with the Albanian treatment of *s elsewhere; we must reject Pedersen's conclusion (1895c:83) that the neofinal retraction of *s to sh has any relation to this 'Satem' feature.
The most striking feature that separates Albanian from the Satem languages is the environmentally conditioned depalatalization of Indo-European palatals before non-vocalic resonants . This feature, a corollary to the Albanian neutralization of palatals before non-vocalic sounds, is entirely absent in Indo-Iranian and Armenian and quite different from the internal variation found in Baltic and Slavic, eg Lith akmuõ ‘stone' , ãšmenys 'edge (of a tool)’ both from *Aekmen-, cf Shevelov (1965:141—45) . Kortlandt (1978) attempted to link the sporadic Baltic-Slavic failure to assibilate Indo-European palatals to the regular preconsonantal neutralization seen in Albanian, but his arguments are less than persuasive. The palatal in both akmuõ and ãšmenys must have always stood before consonantal *m. Analogy provides no rational explanation for this divergence. The Baltic and Slavic variation may, like English ditch: :dyke reflect a now suppressed dialect variation. Fluctuation of reflexes between palatal stops and affricates is a feature observed in many languages. Dialects of Carrier, Ahtena and Koyukon, Athapaskan languages of Canada and Alaska, show both /kY/ and / tš/ for Proto—Athapaskan *k (Hoijer 1963:13-17) .
Pg 160, Basic Albanian Etymologies
by Martin Huld
one thing i was always fashinated about are placenames and word that have origin from agglutinating words together, does albanian have any of the following cases that we can find in english?
Craftsman, Downtown, sheepherd, townmaster, Lumberjack, cattleherder, etc.
I mean words made by aggluting different words into a single one.
For long time, i think it was Vladimir Orel or Georgiev i don't rember, that claimed the thracian orogin of albanians, and his theories were debunked exactly because of the thracians having place names obtained by agglutinating 2 or more words while albanian, i have read, doesn't allow this.
But i have a strange case that i suggest could be seen as a rare case of agglutination in albanian: Mostly use by gheg albanians:
Mollatarta, it means tomatoes (pural), while the rest of albania uses domate.
Now what we can find is that it is like a complete deformation of and compression of the word.
Literally it comes from: molla(apples) të(pronuon i guess) arta(golden).
It is like the italian Pomodoro where pomo from ancient greek to latin is apple, d' is the definitive article and oro from latin aurum is gold.
What do you think.
 
one thing i was always fashinated about are placenames and word that have origin from agglutinating words together, does albanian have any of the following cases that we can find in english?
Craftsman, Downtown, sheepherd, townmaster, Lumberjack, cattleherder, etc.
I mean words made by aggluting different words into a single one.
For long time, i think it was Vladimir Orel or Georgiev i don't rember, that claimed the thracian orogin of albanians, and his theories were debunked exactly because of the thracians having place names obtained by agglutinating 2 or more words while albanian, i have read, doesn't allow this.
But i have a strange case that i suggest could be seen as a rare case of agglutination in albanian: Mostly use by gheg albanians:
Mollatarta, it means tomatoes (pural), while the rest of albania uses domate.
Now what we can find is that it is like a complete deformation of and compression of the word.
Literally it comes from: molla(apples) të(pronuon i guess) arta(golden).
It is like the italian Pomodoro where pomo from ancient greek to latin is apple, d' is the definitive article and oro from latin aurum is gold.
What do you think.

You know, instead of writing this whole paragraph you could have googled this.

The argument about Thracian was not that Albanian can't have compound words, as it has plenty, just like any other language. But in Thracian, the adjective goes first, so it would be: Artamolla, not Mollatarta. Albanian does not allow that.
 
You know, instead of writing this whole paragraph you could have googled this.

The argument about Thracian was not that Albanian can't have compound words, as it has plenty, just like any other language. But in Thracian, the adjective goes first, so it would be: Artamolla, not Mollatarta. Albanian does not allow that.

Thank you, this was the doubt i had.
 
@ Derite

it is more complicated the subject
 
Ok sorry, i have to admit i am fast and quick into doing conclusions and lack of knowledge even on basic things (...)
It's a good sign if you understand that.
Before you write something, you need to get better informed, analyze first and then try to censure yourself in ideas that do not match the information you find. There are too many ideas that you expose and seem to be generated by too much imagination, that it's hard to find something that corresponds to serious evidence. So everything become no longer connected, even if some statements might be true.
Good luck!
 
It's a good sign if you understand that.
Before you write something, you need to get better informed, analyze first and then try to censure yourself in ideas that do not match the information you find. There are too many ideas that you expose and seem to be generated by too much imagination, that it's hard to find something that corresponds to serious evidence. So everything become no longer connected, even if some statements might be true.
Good luck!

Thank you for your advice, i am gonna take note ;)
 
You know, instead of writing this whole paragraph you could have googled this.

The argument about Thracian was not that Albanian can't have compound words, as it has plenty, just like any other language. But in Thracian, the adjective goes first, so it would be: Artamolla, not Mollatarta. Albanian does not allow that.


that is a good arguement
 
The today consensus would be, spite still debated:
It seems the ancestor of Albanian', maybe not too far from what we call 'Illyrian', which language we know very little about itself (too scarce traces when Dalmatian is rejected), was part of a continuum of partly or specifically satemized southeastern European IE dialects were could be put Thracian, Getian (with Dacian), Dardanian and other less known dialects. The more ancient links seem with Balto-Slavic languages, what is due perhaps to the closeness of all those satem languages with a deep common basis.
The Adriatic shores seem excluded, based upon maritime vocabulary (Greek and Latin for the most)- I cannot discuss these arguments, maybe they are not definitive: so Albanian tongue would be come more lately, being rather close to Getian, maybe from a region in the South-Central Balkan. The today Albania lands are considered as showing a rather Slavic toponymy, what would be another argument.
BTW some linguists think that one of the 2 prehellinic dialects of Greece was a dialect close to all these Central and East Balkans ones (the other would have been close to Louwit or to some western Anatolian IE dialects, pity we cannot find the direction of propagation out!) -
I recall these positions without personal thought because I lack clues and things can evovle a bit in future, by chance; I'm just tempted to think the Ghegs are maybe closer to the first Albanians, with a male elite rich for Y-EV13, only guess.
ATW this Balkans story is very fuzzy with all those tribes go and return.
 
The today consensus would be, spite still debated:
The Adriatic shores seem excluded, based upon maritime vocabulary (Greek and Latin for the most)- I cannot discuss these arguments, maybe they are not definitive: so Albanian tongue would be come more lately, being rather close to Getian, maybe from a region in the South-Central Balkan.
According to such a consensus, the Portuguese, Spanish, French, English, most of Italians, Romanians, etc. didn't live near the coasts they inhabit nowadays, as they use Latin words and also Germanic in the case of English.

Also the fact that the Albanian words for sea and boat are actually Albanian doesn't matter at all. It's a done deal, 100% proven that Albanians lived far from the Adriatic and Ionian coasts.

The French word 'air' is also Latin and it shows us an undeniable proof that the ancient Gauls didn't breathe air until the Romans showed up.
 
Indo-European languages

The Indo-European languages are a language family of several hundred related languages and dialects.[2]
There are about 445 living Indo-European languages, according to the estimate by Ethnologue, with over two thirds (313) of them belonging to the Indo-Iranian branch.[3] The most widely spoken Indo-European languages by native speakers are Spanish, Hindustani (Hindi-Urdu), English, Portuguese, Bengali, Punjabi, and Russian, each with over 100 million speakers, with German, French, Marathi, Italian, and Persian also having more than 50 million. Today, nearly 42% of the human population (3.2 billion) speaks an Indo-European language as a first language, by far the highest of any language family.



Classification
The various subgroups of the Indo-European language family include ten major branches, listed below in alphabetical order

Albanian language is one of ten major branches of the Indoeuropean languages and was not the tiny language of a small group of person in a not specified place in Balkans.
Personally i have to make a correction to the article of the Wiki. If we accept the Illyrian origine of the Albanians, Proto-Albanian has not evolved from Illyrians, Illyrians was the Proto-Albanian.
About the lack of maritime vocabulary, after the Roman occupation of Illyria, we definitely lost control of our coastal cities. During the history, on several occasions we have regained control over these cities but never for a century uninterruptedly. The Albanians were there, 5 kilometers from the sea, but without control over the sea. Open a map and look, for example, where is my region and where is the city of Vlora.
 
Indo-European languages
Albanian language is one of ten major branches of the Indoeuropean languages and was not the tiny language of a small group of person in a not specified place in Balkans.
Personally i have to make a correction to the article of the Wiki. If we accept the Illyrian origine of the Albanians, Proto-Albanian has not evolved from Illyrians, Illyrians was the Proto-Albanian.
About the lack of maritime vocabulary, after the Roman occupation of Illyria, we definitely lost control of our coastal cities. During the history, on several occasions we have regained control over these cities but never for a century uninterruptedly. The Albanians were there, 5 kilometers from the sea, but without control over the sea. Open a map and look, for example, where is my region and where is the city of Vlora.
Can you link when Albanians had control of the coastal cities in modern Albania
records only show Corinthian Greeks created many cities from 700BC......where then taken oven by epirotes tribes, a few of the 14 they had, then Macedonia ruled them, then Romans, from 179BC until fall of roman empire, followed by goths, byzantine, normans
 
@ Moesan

somehow I tend to agree,

It is complicated,
 

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