Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Hawk]

So a mix of languages and people coming from somewhere in the central Balkan!? Where exactly? Which area of the central Balkans? This is very vague to understand.

Which prominent Albanologist?


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I am pretty sure you already know the answers hence your question is rhetoric.

Central Balkans as in Dardania, Paeonia. Along the lines.

Prominent Albanologist, Joachim Matzinger of course.

 

[blevins13]

I am pretty sure you already know the answers hence your question is rhetoric.

Central Balkans as in Dardania, Paeonia. Along the lines.

Prominent Albanologist, Joachim Matzinger of course.

Ok I will buy this, i thought was much north, so a Paleo Balkan Tribe, survives Romanization in Dardania/ Paeonia, and then moved to the Albanian Alp during Roman collapse. It is worth considering Hawk.

As for Matzinger, I don’t know his work and I tend to discard it for now . I think language will be reassessed after Genetic is done. Like below Albanian and Greek are sister Languages. Matziger has to reconsider that Albanian never branched to Armenian from the Balkans.

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[blevins13]

Since the first scenario is true, the second scenario is wrong now, will need some remodeling work. IMO, I find it difficult for the Albanian speaker to survive romanization in that area indicated by you, but other than that, there is no reason to discard this possibility.


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[Okoi]

Albanian is an IE language that came with Yamnaya migration so far no E-V13 but among Thracians R1a-Z93:

''Steppe pastoralists of the Yamnayaculture initiated a chain of migrations linkingEurope in the west to China and India in theEast. Some people across the Balkans (about5000 to 4500 years ago) traced almost all theirgenes to this expansion. Steppe migrants soonadmixed with locals, creating a tapestry of diverse ancestry from which speakers of the Greek,Paleo-Balkan, and Albanian languages arose.The Yamnaya expansion also crossed theCaucasus, and by about 4000 years ago,Armenia had become an enclave of low butpervasive steppe ancestry in West Asia, wherethe patrilineal descendants of Yamnaya men,virtually extinct on the steppe, persisted. TheArmenian language was born there, related toIndo-European languages of Europe such asGreek by their shared Yamnaya heritage.''

''All ancient Indo-European speakers can be traced back to the Yamnaya culture,whose southward expansions into the SouthernArc left a trace in the DNA of the Bronze Agepeople of the region. However, the link connecting the Proto-Indo-European–speakingYamnaya with the speakers of Anatolian languages was in the highlands of West Asia, theancestral region shared by both''


''Haplogroup R-M269, which is inferred tohave a shared common ancestor in the 5thmillennium BCE, is crucial for understandingsteppe expansions because it was the dominant lineage of the Yamnaya-Afanasievo group(4, 8, 34) in its 4th millennium BCE R-Z2103→R-M12149 sublineage. In the Balkans, a groupof six Bronze Age individuals from the 3rdmillennium BCE carrying R-M269 (Fig. 6C)are associated with >30% Eastern huntergatherer ancestry, and this includes not onlyCatacomb and Multi-cordoned Ware individualsfrom Moldova, adjacent to the steppe, but also from farther south, including two Yamnayamales from Bulgaria (Boyanovo and Mogila,the latter associated with Yamnaya burial custom and with the R-Z2103 haplogroup typicalof the steppe Yamnaya) and one from Albania(Çinamak) belonging to the high-steppe ancestry group. By the Late Bronze Age (late 2ndmillennium BCE) and later, no high-steppeancestry individuals are observed, but steppeassociated Y chromosomes persist, includingR-Z2106, a lineage that links North Macedonia(Ulanci-Veles), Albania (Çinamak), the steppe,and Armenia. The population of SoutheasternEurope contrasts strongly with those of theCentral/Northern Europe and Eurasian steppearchaeological cultures of ~3000 to 2000 BCEthat were strongly associated with particularY-chromosome lineages: Afanasievo (4, 34) withthe same R-Z2103 as the Yamnaya, CordedWare/Fatyanovo/Sintashta (4, 8, 34, 35) withR-M417, and Beaker (36) with R-L51. In Southeastern Europe during the Bronze Age, wedetect 32/30/21/11 Y chromosomes belongingto haplogroups R/J/I/G linking it with Central/Northern Europe and the steppe/West Asia/local hunter-gatherers/Anatolian-EuropeanNeolithic farmers, respectively. Together withthe extraordinary heterogeneity in autosomal ancestry in the Balkans, a picture emergesof a fragmented genetic landscape that maywell parallel the poorly understood linguisticdiversity in the ancient Balkans, which amongIndo-Europeanlanguagesincludes Paleo-Balkanspeakers before the spread of Latin and Slavic,with Albanian as the only surviving representative. Did the early Indo-European languagebecome successful in Southeastern Europe because it functioned as a “lingua franca,” facilitating communication among speakers ofthe diverse languages of previous farmer and''


Source: reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/8_25_2022_Manuscript1_ChalcolithicBronzeAge.pdf


Every time J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 and Albanians are mentioned this mount123 maggot starts chimping out.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

For Greece, the Byzantine chroniclers refer to Dacian migrations of Vrachs from Bogdania/Moldova into Pindus, Thessaly and even the Peloponnese, starting around the 10th century A.D., although the dates are not specific.

For me personally, this is a compatible time frame for such a demographic input in peninsular Greece.

I can't say for Albania, because I am not versed in the matter.

There is a concentration of toponyms east of Nis - Shtip line that have correspondence to medieval Albanian tribes (one day I will summarize them). This area is also home to a population archeologist have labeled "the Bessi" culture, which resisted Romanisation and lived a pastoral life on the mountain ranges along the modern Serbian-Bulgarian-Macedonian border. I am not aware of any other Balkan IA people to have had their own archeological culture within Roman rule (a state within a state sort of entity). This area stayed in Byzantine control until the Bulgars captured Serdica (modern Sofia). This seems the event that triggered the migration to occur into modern Albania, so something along this time frame 810-870 AD, the range is speculative. It is also after this period that the Kruja-Komani culture (Latin speaking Illyrian survivors) which flourished the prior centuries begins to decline.

The theory in a nut shell is this. E-V13 with R1b-BY611 came from this central Balkan zone, speaking early Albanian, they find a Romanized J2b population in northern Albania and gradually assimilate them. The best fitting G25 models agree with this view, and the fit here is obviously superior, not barely better. A+ vs D- grading.


It should be noted that the Albanian tribes south of Shkumbin river did not have intense J2b interaction (not to a meaningful scale at least), and the Arberesh in Italy (medieval Albanians that migrated to Italy through Greece, aka Arvanitis that didn't stay in Greece) are almost entirely absent in J2b-L283, keeping their original tribal portfolio intact. And we have the same situation in Montenegro and Herzegovania, some of the Serbian tribes and brotherhoods speculated to derive from medieval pastoral Albanian tribes are entirely E-V13 and R1b-BY611. The ratio is so drastic, that J2b-L283 makes up only 2% of Orthodox Slavs in Montenegro, despite the fact that among adjacent northern Albanians J2b-L283 is 30-40%. All this points to J2b-L283 being a sedentary population in northern Albania that did not even receive full tribal membership until late Middle Ages.

For comparison, you can should look E-V13 and R1b-BY611 ratios among Orthodox Slavs in Montenegro, it's quite high, not a meager 2%.

 

[blevins13]

There is a concentration of toponyms east of Nis - Shtip line that have correspondence to medieval Albanian tribes (one day I will summarize them). This area is also home to a population archeologist have labeled "the Bessi" culture, which resisted Romanisation and lived a pastoral life on the mountain ranges along the modern Serbian-Bulgarian-Macedonian border. I am not aware of any other Balkan IA people to have had their own archeological culture within Roman rule (a state within a state sort of entity). This area stayed in Byzantine control until the Bulgars captured Serdica (modern Sofia). This seems the event that triggered the migration to occur into modern Albania, so something along this time frame 810-870 AD, the range is speculative. It is also after this period that the Kruja-Komani culture (Latin speaking Illyrian survivors) which flourished the prior centuries begins to decline.

The theory in a nut shell is this. E-V13 with R1b-BY611 came from this central Balkan zone, speaking early Albanian, they find a Romanized J2b population in northern Albania and gradually assimilate them. The best fitting G25 models agree with this view, and the fit here is obviously superior, not barely better. A+ vs D- grading.


It should be noted that the Albanian tribes south of Shkumbin river did not have intense J2b interaction (not to a meaningful scale at least), and the Arberesh in Italy (medieval Albanians that migrated to Italy through Greece, aka Arvanitis that didn't stay in Greece) are almost entirely absent in J2b-L283, keeping their original tribal portfolio intact. And we have the same situation in Montenegro and Herzegovania, some of the Serbian tribes and brotherhoods speculated to derive from medieval pastoral Albanian tribes are entirely E-V13 and R1b-BY611. The ratio is so drastic, that J2b-L283 makes up only 2% of Orthodox Slavs in Montenegro, despite the fact that among adjacent northern Albanians J2b-L283 is 30-40%. All this points to J2b-L283 being a sedentary population in northern Albania that did not even receive full tribal membership until late Middle Ages.

For comparison, you can should look E-V13 and R1b-BY611 ratios among Orthodox Slavs in Montenegro, it's quite high, not a meager 2%.

Reviving “Bessi” theory back I thought that has become obsolete long time ago. This will be quite something. But geographically the difference is only the field of Kosovo.
In my eyes Malcom model remains more plausible.

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[Pashai Janinës]

and the Arberesh in Italy (medieval Albanians that migrated to Italy through Greece, aka Arvanitis that didn't stay in Greece)

You should learn some basics from history. The majority of Arberesh are Albanians who migrated to Italy after Albania was occupied by the Ottomans after Scanderbeg's death. There is also a component in the Arberesh population that arrived in Italy from Greece. But the majority of them as i said above are from Albania, mainly from Southern Albania, i.e. Epirus.These are things that are learned as children in the early years of school.
It is important that you learn these things before continuing with your theories.

 

[Okoi]

Berisha-Sop cluster majority E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102 , they have a TMRCA of 650 ybp and 350 ybp yfull.com/tree/E-Y93102/ , There are a bunch of other tribes that have tested for these too but who also test for other Y-DNA or branches.

Shosh cluster TMRCa of 850 ybp yfull.com/tree/E-FT146201/

PH2180 yfull.com/tree/E-PH2180/

Some have older formation and TMRCA and of course many Y-DNA in general are founder effects but at least we know J2b2-L283 and R1b were in Albania since the Iron Age such as R-PF7563 which is quite numerous among the Shala tribe and some Krasniqe, Thaq but many others tested for it too. We also have R1b-CTS9219 numerous among Bytyq, Thac but others too , so we literally have some of the most common Albanian lineages gathered in one single site. Trying to argue proto-Albanians originated anywhere else at this point is nothing but nonsense.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Reviving “Bessi” theory back I thought that has become obsolete long time ago. This will be quite something. But geographically the difference is only the field of Kosovo.
In my eyes Malcom model remains more plausible.

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Not opposed to Kosovo being the destination, but there is nothing in Kosovo to suggest a people resisted Romanisation there, there is no unique archeologically attested culture. I'll stick with visible evidence.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

These are the two components I am using in my model to represent early Albanians, somehow I swapped Bavaria STR_300 with Hungary_I18185.

Thracian derived profile

 [TABLE]
 [TR]
 [TD="class: xl65, width: 64"]SRB_Viminacium:R6756___AD_180_E-V13,0.121791,0.168578,0.007165,-0.042313,0.028005,-0.013945,-0.000235,0.002308,0.00634,0.036447,0.007957,0.003897,-0.006987,-0.003991,-0.029994,-0.012198,0.005998,0.00076,0.007039,-0.014007,-0.011729,0.012242,-0.003574,0.008314,-0.001317[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD="class: xl65"]Hungary_Medieval_Conqueror_Period_(BA-IA_Southern_Balkan_Profile):SZOD376_(Commoner)_E-V13,0.125205,0.166547,0.00792,-0.05491,0.033852,-0.020917,0.0047,0.001615,0.011453,0.044283,0.008282,0.006294,-0.016055,0.002064,-0.017915,-0.023601,-0.005346,0.007728,0.010936,-0.006128,-0.008235,0.004204,0.000616,0.009881,-0.000958[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD="class: xl65"]Germany_Medieval_Straubing-Bajuwarenstrasse_(BA-IA_Southern_Balkan_Profile):STR_300,0.125205,0.165531,-0.001886,-0.05491,0.024004,-0.015339,0.009165,0.010384,0.003681,0.029887,0.00341,-0.000599,-0.009663,-0.006331,-0.029044,-0.005304,0.002868,-0.004814,-0.002765,-0.016758,-0.007237,0.009645,0.008381,0.00253,-0.004191[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD="class: xl65"]Bavaria_STR_300_&_Hungary_SZOD376(E-V13)_SRB_Roman_6756(E-V13):Avg,0.124067,0.166885333333333,0.00439966666666667,-0.050711,0.0286203333333333,-0.0167336666666667,0.00454333333333333,0.004769,0.007158,0.0368723333333333,0.00654966666666667,0.00319733333333333,-0.0109016666666667,-0.00275266666666667,-0.025651,-0.013701,0.00117333333333333,0.00122466666666667,0.00507,-0.0122976666666667,-0.009067,0.008697,0.00180766666666667,0.00690833333333333,-0.00215533333333333[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [/TABLE]

Dardanii component:

[TABLE]
[TR]
 [TD="class: xl65, width: 64"]Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early_(BA-IA_Southern_Balkan_Profile):I16750_(E-V13)_Dardanii_heavy,0.1161,0.159438,0.004148,-0.046835,0.022158,-0.024263,-0.00611,0.001846,0.004295,0.040639,-0.004222,0.009442,-0.015907,0.010597,-0.020901,0.004375,0.0339,0.007475,0.008045,-0.013632,-0.015847,0.000618,0.001849,0.005904,-0.011496[/TD]
 [/TR]
[/TABLE]

I updated their Y-haplogroup identification as well.

I can't help but notice that the results correspond with the Y-haplogroup ratios.

You'll notice that the Velic ratio went down, that's because I removed the Roman ME avg, and used primordial ME, that's when the calc was able to unlock some of that Velic ratio and spill it into the Greek IA cluster. Like I mentioned earlier, the Velic profile has significant ME mixture, and it appears this is how this mixture entered Albanians, through a Romanized Illyrian population, and smaller ratio through Greek remnants in the south.

Bavaria_STR_300_&_Hungary_SZOD376(E-V13)_SRB_Roman_6756(E-V13):Avg,0.124067,0.166885333333333,0.00439966666666667,-0.050711,0.0286203333333333,-0.0167336666666667,0.00454333333333333,0.004769,0.007158,0.0368723333333333,0.00654966666666667,0.00319733333333333,-0.0109016666666667,-0.00275266666666667,-0.025651,-0.013701,0.00117333333333333,0.00122466666666667,0.00507,-0.0122976666666667,-0.009067,0.008697,0.00180766666666667,0.00690833333333333,-0.00215533333333333
Hungary_Medieval_Avar_Period_Early_(BA-IA_Southern_Balkan_Profile):I16750_(E-V13)_Dardanii_heavy,0.1161,0.159438,0.004148,-0.046835,0.022158,-0.024263,-0.00611,0.001846,0.004295,0.040639,-0.004222,0.009442,-0.015907,0.010597,-0.020901,0.004375,0.0339,0.007475,0.008045,-0.013632,-0.015847,0.000618,0.001849,0.005904,-0.011496
Croatia_Velic:R3685___AD_500___Coverage_56.14%_G2a2b-L497,0.117238,0.141159,-0.001508,-0.030039,0.015387,-0.016733,-0.00376,-0.006461,-0.00225,0.020228,-0.00065,0.003297,-0.017096,-0.001789,-0.010586,0.007558,0.012386,-0.003294,0.001634,-0.004002,-0.004367,-0.001484,-0.001849,0.002771,-0.000359
Classical_Greek_Himera_5th_BCE:Average,0.1186036,0.1622816,-0.007618,-0.0631142,0.0223426,-0.0241518,-0.0037132,-0.0037382,0.0066266,0.0406388,0.001754,0.0106704,-0.0189988,-0.0003854,-0.016558,-0.01249,0.0111086,-0.000608,0.0073658,-0.006078,-0.0104316,0.0072458,0.0000492,0.003181,-0.0039756
POL_Weklice_Early_Goths:Average,0.133660714285714,0.129552571428571,0.0762861428571429,0.065892,0.043085,0.0241838571428571,0.00553942857142857,0.0118347142857143,0.00745042857142857,-0.007758,-0.00675071428571429,0.00389657142857143,-0.00736928571428571,-0.00650742857142857,0.0185354285714286,0.0119141428571429,0.00378085714285714,0.000688,0.00183171428571429,0.00644957142857143,0.007986,0.00245528571428571,-0.00151428571428571,0.011912,-0.00145414285714286
Slav_MA,0.1292408,0.1278645,0.0744299,0.0667435,0.0442321,0.0231226,0.0087166,0.012545,-0.0003718,-0.0232598,-0.00248,-0.0092645,0.0149742,0.0188792,-0.0083037,0.0013741,0.0066141,-0.0015894,0.0034395,0.003297,-0.0047075,-0.0031365,0.0046274,-0.0053785,0.0002395
Sargat_IA:Average,0.093477,-0.068548125,0.0658075,0.0608855,-0.049201625,-6.98750000000006E-05,0.003055125,0.004442,-0.01516025,-0.02890725,0.014899125,-0.00252875,0.008566625,-0.033236,0.002680375,0.001027625,-0.009664875,0.00121925,-0.001853875,-0.003329625,-0.009343,0.006244375,0.001802375,0.003057625,0.001167625
MNG_Early_Xiongnu:Average,0.0668927692307692,-0.207246076923077,0.0557848461538462,0.0257157692307692,-0.0602005384615385,-0.009375,0.00723107692307692,0.00658553846153846,-0.0122085384615385,-0.0164993846153846,-0.0166386153846154,-0.00288215384615385,-0.000903461538461539,-0.0122060769230769,0.0140104615384615,0.000917846153846154,-0.00948784615384615,0.00161784615384615,0.00147938461538462,0.00503115384615384,-0.0186401538461538,-0.00195938461538462,-0.00628553846153846,0.00203923076923077,0.00205415384615385
AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC:ALX002,0.097888,0.137096,-0.06939,-0.072675,-0.023697,-0.013666,0.005875,-0.003692,-0.024338,-0.00164,0.011205,-0.013338,0.012636,0.00578,-0.020765,0.030893,0.024903,0.004181,-0.000251,-0.007754,0.004617,0.015086,-0.003944,-0.015544,-0.005508
ARM_Noratus_Anc:Average,0.0944735,0.137604,-0.05638,-0.0637925,-0.0253895,-0.019941,0.0038775,-0.005192,-0.0223955,-0.0041,0.00609,0.00517,-0.006764,-0.0052985,-0.0010855,0.00305,0.009453,-0.001964,0.005594,-0.0068785,0.003993,-0.00136,0.0019105,-0.0025905,0.003353
IRN_Hasanlu_C_BA_&_IA:Average,0.0949608571428571,0.126070714285714,-0.0649725714285714,-0.0443432857142857,-0.0409744285714286,-0.00844628571428571,0.00688228571428571,-0.00458228571428571,-0.0376322857142857,-0.0118451428571429,0.00605485714285714,6.42857142857142E-05,0.000977,-0.00359785714285714,0.000853,0.00746271428571429,-0.000707857142857143,0.00356528571428571,0.00301685714285714,-0.00394842857142857,0.00180042857142857,-0.00439857142857143,-0.00508828571428571,-0.00719542857142857,0.00138571428571429
Levant_PPNB:Average,0.0774,0.165192666666667,-0.0314266666666667,-0.139752333333333,0.035699,-0.063215,-0.0110453333333333,-0.012999,0.0681746666666667,0.0413676666666667,0.0197033333333333,-0.014287,0.0312683333333333,-0.00197266666666667,-0.0285013333333333,0.009016,0.0160803333333333,-0.00135133333333333,-0.00439966666666667,0.019926,-0.00391,0.008491,-0.00209533333333333,-0.00397633333333333,-0.006267
ISR_Natufian_EpiP,0.034147,0.152329,-0.022627,-0.140506,0.042162,-0.085062,-0.016921,-0.015692,0.12476,0.019317,0.028743,-0.025327,0.085926,-0.004129,0.004886,-0.014054,-0.011213,-0.007855,-0.02074,0.023136,0.01123,0.001607,0.00912,0.003735,-0.003233
Berber_Tunisia_Chen,-0.0279499,0.1390711,-0.0080871,-0.0764792,0.0277316,-0.0352023,-0.0313867,0.0052818,0.0684246,0.0297957,0.0040057,-0.0043877,0.0196314,-0.0161248,0.0140923,-0.0169052,0.0001521,-0.0232896,-0.0467247,0.0078579,-0.0168314,-0.0404275,0.0281347,-0.0044517,0.0063666
Rome_Imperial:MENA,0.083887615,0.14438296,-0.05539909,-0.08351165,-0.014875675,-0.02808784,-0.00420361,-0.00699206,0.00473994,0.00753321,0.00485756,-0.0063994,0.01110501,-0.000839415,-0.00692851,0.007229525,0.00264355,0.00003644,0.00138889,0.00176961,0.0012493,0.00448696,-0.00141116,-0.000301325,-0.00209115

 

[torzio]

Target: Veritus_scaled
Distance: 0.0237% / 0.02374303
55.5 Bavaria_STR_300_&_Hungary_SZOD376(E-V13)_SRB_Roman_6756(E-V13)
36.9 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
7.6 Slav_MA




..................................

Target: LiburnianG25
Distance: 0.0104% / 0.01039090
41.9 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
35.3 Bavaria_STR_300_&_Hungary_SZOD376(E-V13)_SRB_Roman_6756(E-V13)
22.8 Classical_Greek_Himera_5th_BCE

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Target: Veritus_scaled
Distance: 0.0237% / 0.02374303
55.5 Bavaria_STR_300_&_Hungary_SZOD376(E-V13)_SRB_Roman_6756(E-V13)
36.9 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
7.6 Slav_MA




..................................

Target: LiburnianG25
Distance: 0.0104% / 0.01039090
41.9 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
35.3 Bavaria_STR_300_&_Hungary_SZOD376(E-V13)_SRB_Roman_6756(E-V13)
22.8 Classical_Greek_Himera_5th_BCE

I would this values for your model;

[TABLE="width: 64"]
[TR]
   [TD="width: 64"]Croatia_Roman:Average,0.116460739812455,0.150356904926909,0.0120999740246364,-0.0256656530200909,0.0251303948380909,-0.00862591862963636,0.000705008070181822,-4.78208139999854E-05,0.00568656288472727,0.023384025478,0.000502208038712727,0.005267392641,-0.0121724286778182,-0.00271005895781818,-0.00785982718009092,-0.00528703944627273,0.00131740583672728,-0.000270308260272731,0.00437768460963636,-0.00596773351100909,-0.00399429363290907,0.00294437236254545,0.000206279452454545,0.000812584023818181,-0.000909197555454549[/TD]
 [/TR]
[/TABLE]

The two primary Alb proxies are largely Balkan IA profiles despite being Roman and early mdv. While Albanian responds well to a preserved central Balkan IA profile, a Dalmatian Latin speaker would probably want a Croatia_Roman average in the menu.

 

[torzio]

I would this values for your model;

what does this sentence mean?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

what does this sentence mean?

Add Roman Croatia average to source.

 

[torzio]

Add Roman Croatia average to source.

Target: Veritus_scaled
Distance: 0.0225% / 0.02249497
44.0 Croatia_Roman
25.4 Bavaria_STR_300_&_Hungary_SZOD376(E-V13)_SRB_Roman_6756(E-V13)
20.4 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
9.8 Slav_MA
0.4 MNG_Early_Xiongnu


...................................................

Target: LiburnianG25
Distance: 0.0083% / 0.00825658
48.4 Croatia_Roman
30.9 POL_Weklice_Early_Goths
20.7 Bavaria_STR_300_&_Hungary_SZOD376(E-V13)_SRB_Roman_6756(E-V13)

 

[blevins13]

Not opposed to Kosovo being the destination, but there is nothing in Kosovo to suggest a people resisted Romanisation there, there is no unique archeologically attested culture. I'll stick with visible evidence.

Linguistically is not a good fit. Lack o Greek influence in Albanian makes Bessi not a good fit. Not sure what you mean by visible evidence.


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[eupator]

I don’t see that scenario very possible considering this

Bulgarian empire = Vlachs also.

 

[mount123]

So, from Anatolian migrants theory now to Vlachs?

Here is the Y-DNA picture of vlachs. There is a lot of R1b and J2a among them, far more than E-V13.

You think it's so easy to sew theories like that? Out of nowhere. No.

It is easily refutable. The general problem lies within the fact that people are bringing up inter-Slavic populations such as Vlachs or even Bulgarians etc. when talking about Thracians which is non sense. These people are rather the source of how all of that Slavic patrilineage manifested in I-Y3120, R1a-Z283 became so high in Southern Albania. E1b-V13 is of course still a considerable minority in the Slavic and inter-Slavic inhabited areas of South East Europe but that clearly is not the source and it is total non sense to suggest that.

 

[eupator]

Aromanians are but a sub-group of the Vlach total, not the entirety.

The Vlach groups in Greece Hellenised linguistically very early (by the 11th century).

 

[mount123]

The ratio is so drastic, that J2b-L283 makes up only 2% of Orthodox Slavs in Montenegro, despite the fact that among adjacent northern Albanians J2b-L283 is 30-40%. All this points to J2b-L283 being a sedentary population in northern Albania that did not even receive full tribal membership until late Middle Ages.

For comparison, you can should look E-V13 and R1b-BY611 ratios among Orthodox Slavs in Montenegro, it's quite high, not a meager 2%.

Evidently enough we will see in the Serbia and other upcoming papers from the Balkans how Illyrian J2b-L283 has gotten massively decimated post Batos' revolts and the Illyrian uprisings whilst the Central and Eastern Balkan genetic sphere flourishes. This could already be observed in the Stable Population structure paper. Merging with neighbour populations, Roman empire, Illyrian Wars, Imperial Roman era = death to Illyrian ethnos. Not to forget the Avars and Slavs obviously.