Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[torzio]

The theory ( by some scholars ) with this Dardanos naming is that the original people of northern Albania where the Bryges ( Phygians )...............one group migrated to northern serbia and the other to western Anatolia

Phygians( Bryges ) are a european people and not an anatolian people

 

[PaleoRevenge]

In trying to pin the origin of the contested balkan Dardani, one of the problems with linking them to the Glasinac-Mati culture (which Lippert 2022 states "corresponds entirely to the Illyrian personal name area") is the name "Dardanus/Dardania" appearing in the Aegean & Thrace.

While we have instances of Channelled Ware, Barbarian Ware, and Stamped Ware, appearing in both the Balkans and Troy that might account for how and when these transfers occurred, we do not yet have any plausible arguments from the Glasinac camp.

Western Brnica was heavily influenced by Illyrians during BA, so much so that they began to have dual burial styles, cremations and mound inhumations. Around 750 BCE Glasinac expands into western Kosovo, this event likely is the trigger for a good portion of western Dardani to migrate into southern Albania and Macedonia, we have references to "Illyrian" domination and raids into the northern Greek zones. In Macedonia Illyrian rule was short lived because Cimmerians came in crippled their power, they were reduced to the lakeland area which they ruled until Macedon became a super power.

Short answer, the Dardani the Greeks dealt with were heavily Illyrianized/Glasinacized, hence the misconception that Dardanians were a Illyrian people, while in fact they were neither Illyrian or Thracian but came to be dominated and partially if not fully assimilated by both for very long periods.

 

[Johane Derite]

In trying to pin the origin of the contested balkan Dardani, one of the problems with linking them to the Glasinac-Mati culture (which Lippert 2022 states "corresponds entirely to the Illyrian personal name area") is the name "Dardanus/Dardania" appearing in the Aegean & Thrace.
While we have instances of Channelled Ware, Barbarian Ware, and Stamped Ware, appearing in both the Balkans and Troy that might account for how and when these transfers occurred, we do not yet have any plausible arguments from the Glasinac camp.

Likewise, another problem is the appearance of a related form, "derd-" appearing particularly frequently in Macedonia and Epirus.
(3 of the appearances in Macedonia are of the kings of elimiotis).
We know that in this region there was an influx of Brnjica and also channelled ware, so which is more probable to have brought the "derd-" name?

 

[torzio]

Danilo Savic paper is basically the same as the joint English-croatian seminar presented about Illyrian in mid 2022

here is one photo

the white labelled tribes disappeared after they combined to create the Illyrian Kingdom

 

[Johane Derite]

One of the reasons that Matzinger argues Albanian does not continue Illyrian in his latest 2022 book is also because of the mismatch in the development of IE sonorants in Albanian vs Illyrian. Likewise he also argues that Messapic doesn't match Illyrian also.

 

[torzio]

I had my doubts that Messapic language was Illyrian from about a year ago ...................I also doubt the messapic populace ( salento peninsula ) and daunians ( around Foggia ) are related

 

[Riverman]

From Anthrogenica:

Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians
Leonidas Romanos Davranoglou, Aris Aristodemou, David Wesolowski, Alexandros Heraclides
doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2023.06.05.543790
This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review.
Abstract
The origins of the Albanian people have vexed linguists and historians for centuries, as Albanians first appear in the historical record in the 11th century CE, while their language is one of the most enigmatic branches of the Indo-European family. To identify the populations that contributed to the ancestry of Albanians, we undertake a genomic transect of the Balkans over the last 8000 years, where we analyse more than 6000 previously published ancient genomes using state-of-the-art bioinformatics tools and algorithms that quantify spatiotemporal human mobility. We find that modern Albanians descend from Roman era western Balkan populations, with additional admixture from Slavic-related groups. Remarkably, Albanian paternal ancestry shows continuity from Bronze Age Balkan populations, including those known as Illyrians. Our results provide an unprecedented understanding of the historical and demographic processes that led to the formation of modern Albanians and help locate the area where the Albanian language developed.

NOTE: There are no new ancient DNA samples presented in this preprint.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...BSTRACTS-ONLY)&p=934678&viewfull=1#post934678


No new samples is a pity...

 

[bigsnake49]

David Wesolowski is Davidski from Eurogenes.

 

[Johane Derite]

In Alexander the Great's battle against the Triballians, Arrian mentions a river called "Lyginon".


Given that Triballians were one of the peoples of Moesia (where Matzinger argues Proto-Albanians hail from), could this be related to:


Albanian. Lug [trough, water-channel]

Albanian. Lug is extremely common in Albanian toponymy, aswell as the derived "Luginë" [valley].


We should expect it to have been common among proto-Albanians as well.


Lugu Shtrigave (Shushticë Drenicë)
Lugu i Sllanishtës (Llukar)
Lugu i Plepave (Sfircë – Medvegjë)
etj

 

[Johane Derite]

We only know of two Triballian names, that of King Syrmus and King Hales (χάλησ).Hales is interesting, could there be a possible relation to:Albanian. Halë [awn, beard; nettle-leaf, fish-bone]

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The word lagur is probably related too, wet, damp.

 

[lynxbythetv]

Albanian sounds similar to Gaelic.

 

[Johane Derite]

"
The OP goes around and creates fake internet maps of a proto-Albanian homeland which supposedly included Bulgaria and he has quoted Matzinger but this is not even what Matzinger is saying. Nowhere does he say Albanian was spoken there"
That's a lie, here is where he states it clearly:

To test Matzinger's hypothesis that the Proto-Albanian homeland was in the Moesia Superior/Dacia Ripensis/Mediterranea region, we can begin with first trying to list all the recorded peoples/tribes in this region.This is a rough attempt, please contribute if I missed any.

 

[Riverman]

To test Matzinger's hypothesis that the Proto-Albanian homeland was in the Moesia Superior/Dacia Ripensis/Mediterranea region, we can begin with first trying to list all the recorded peoples/tribes in this region.This is a rough attempt, please contribute if I missed any.

The image wasn't visible, that's why I post the direct link:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzOfP9mWwAES1Nl?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

I just wonder whether there is any possibility of Proto-Albanian being of Daco-Thracian origin. I rather thought that this is no option on the table any more, going by the (meagre though!) linguistic evidence? That's a major reason why I favour the Dardanian hypothesis, which seems to be the by far most likely one at the moment.

 

[Johane Derite]

The image wasn't visible, that's why I post the direct link:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzOfP9mWwAES1Nl?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
I just wonder whether there is any possibility of Proto-Albanian being of Daco-Thracian origin. I rather thought that this is no option on the table any more, going by the (meagre though!) linguistic evidence? That's a major reason why I favour the Dardanian hypothesis, which seems to be the by far most likely one at the moment.

Hm, strange, the image shows up for me on both the phone and conputer.
I also think Dardani are most probable. Currently Matzinger has argued that Albanian cannot descend from Thracian, but he does not talk about dacian/daco-moesian as its called. If there was a central IE stratum that was neither thracian nor illyrian (like paeonian for example, Dardanian, etc) then that is probably best candidate. We dont know enough about Triballi to know if they were Thracian proper or one of these ambigous central balkan groups. I've read through all the ancient references to the Triballi, and they are most of the time referred to separately from the Thracians, for example, "the thracians and the triballi" etc.
If pre channelled ware brnjica corresponds to Paeonian, an IE language, then the pre-chanelled ware Paracin and Belegis probably were also IE languages on a spectrum with Paeonian. Maybe Triballian, Moesian, Dardanian constituted these groups to different degrees, some more linguistically "channellised"(thracian if riverman's hypothesis is correct) than others, i.e. neither Thracian or Illyrian
language

 

[Riverman]

I think that Belegis was likely related to Daco-Thracian in any case, even before its later stage under G?va influence. The Triballi are from my understanding probably not Thracian proper, but Daco-Thracian in any case and if Matzinger excludes Thracians, there is no reason other Daco-Thracians could be a better fit.
However, we know that from the start the Dardanians assimilated larger groups of Channelled Ware and Daco-Thracians, plus the Triballi and other Daco-Thracian tribes got degraded and split in the later Iron Age and Roman period, Dacians too and many being resettled. So my guess would be that some Dardanians or Dardanian-related people formed the core, and around that a lot of Daco-Thracian genetic and cultural influences gathered, once their own structures got broken down and with the resettlements and movements in Late Antiquity, the migration and Slavic period. That's at the moment the most parsimonious explanation if we stick to the assumption of a non-Daco-Thracian origin but strong E-V13 and Daco-Thracian influences.
We might deal with a fairly small nucleus around which a couple of Paleo-Balkan and Romance-Pre-Vlach elements gathered. The strong E-V13 participation would be best exlplained by multiple influences, but especially one large Dacian one, fairly late, probably even a part Romanised/Pre-Vlach group, when Dacia was evacuated and many Daco-Romans being resettled to the territory around the Dardanians. That would explain the high diversity and larger effective population of the E-V13 component, because unlike the more diverse local nucleus, they came in a bulk.

 

[torzio]

some classify Dacians and Getae as thracians ...........I think we need to ignore this thracian connection and treat them as neighbours of the proper thracians which where south of them

 

[Riverman]

some classify Dacians and Getae as thracians ...........I think we need to ignore this thracian connection and treat them as neighbours of the proper thracians which where south of them

They were very clearly one language group and cultural sphere, there can be no doubt about that. From the Late Bronze Age onwards, we see the connection and the furthest I would go, concerning any sort of differentiation, is the same level as Baltoslavs. You can't treat them in the same manner as say Thracians and Greeks or even Thracians and Illyrians, which were clearly more differentiated, branched off much earlier.

 

[Johane Derite]

Phillipide argued that the proto-Albanian homeland was a narrow strip between the Vrbas and Drina rivers in Bosnia.


He argued the proto-Albanians were neither Illyrians nor Thracians, but Pannonians, who he considered related but distinct to the Illyrians.


Among the tribes he listed specifically were the Maezaei, Ditiones, Daesitiatae, and the Breuci. |


He also made a comparison between the traditional Albanian. "Tirq" clothing constructed out of composite parts stitched together, and an account from Dio Cassius about the Pannonian's costumes.

He argued for this region between Vrbas and Drina due to the relatively low signs of Romanisation in this region, which he argued made it possible for the proto-Albanians to escape assimilation.

 

[Riverman]

Some argue that Albanian is closer to Dacian and Dacian itself has strong Illyrian influences or being a close relative. You can read a lot of theories floating around. Honestly I think ancient will solve more for the linguistic debate than the linguistic debate can still add to the quest, at this point and level of the discourse. Because the data base is just too small to draw any definite conclusions from the few written sources. If it would be more clear how the relationship of Illyrian, Albanian, Dacian and Thracian is, there wouldn't be so many different opinions among linguists.

From my point of view there can be no doubt Dacians and Thracians are closer related, but we'll see what the data says. Hopefully they also test some Romanised Dacians abroad, because those at home did cremate until they were gone as a clearly recognisable entity. Like the Dacian graves from Britain would be great source material.