Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Aspurg]

If that Southern-arch paper gets published before New Year, then hell, we will have a lot of information in our hands. We can scope it down the picture of Ancient Balkans.

What's your opinion, was E-V13 present among Ancient Greeks?

Yes so many samples so I heard. For example only from Bezdanjača cave where than dubious I2a Din sample is from there are 30 samples. Also Macedonian samples, even Albania. Even 20 from Montenegro. I suspect they will range from EBA to IA hopefully.

I saw some recent study about Greek speakers from Southern Italy, I think they tested descendants of Greeks from Southern Italy? J2a was like 30, 35 %, G2a 20 %, E-v13 something like 5-6 %..

Already many Greeks are closely related to Albanians (Arvanites) but also various Bulgarians in other clades. Those are not ancient Greeks, but there should be some/few probably.

 

[Hawk]

Yes so many samples so I heard. For example only from Bezdanjača cave where than dubious I2a Din sample is from there are 30 samples. Also Macedonian samples, even Albania. Even 20 from Montenegro. I suspect they will range from EBA to IA hopefully.

I saw some recent study about Greek speakers from Southern Italy, I think they tested descendants of Greeks from Southern Italy? J2a was like 30, 35 %, G2a 20 %, E-v13 something like 5-6 %..

Already many Greeks are closely related to Albanians (Arvanites) but also various Bulgarians in other clades. Those are not ancient Greeks, but there should be some/few probably.

Let's see then. In case of Greece, there is a strong archeological indication the South-East Urnfielders did leave an impact there. So, i am expecting E-V13 to show up.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Dardanians by Strabo were mentioned as Illyrians

[FONT=&quot] But Paeonia is in the middle, and the whole of it too is high country. Paeonia is bounded on either side, first, towards the Thracian parts, by Rhodope,​[/FONT]266[FONT=&quot] a mountain next in height to the Haemus, and secondly, on the other side, towards the north, by the Illyrian parts, both the country of the Autariatae and that of the Dardanians.​[/FONT]267[FONT=&quot] So then, let me speak first of the Illyrian parts, which join the Ister and that part of [/FONT]

[COLOR=#FF3300 !important] p253 [/COLOR]​

[FONT=&quot]the Alps which lies between Italy and Germany and begins at the lake​[/FONT]268[FONT=&quot] which is near the country of the Vindelici, Rhaeti, and Toenii.[/FONT]269

He mentions them several times as Illyrians.

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/texts/Strabo/7E*.html

Also read his other chapters on the Epiroti etc.


There is really no evidence for any of this nonsense this Matzinger claims. There were either tribes that were Illyrian or Thracian/Dacian.

 

[Hawk]

No one is saying Matzinger cannot be wrong, he might very well be.

But calling him a hoax/lier/clown just because you don't agree is dishonest.

There is no doubt that this book, on the way it's categorized, the chronological order, the bringing of ancient DNA, archeology and linguistics to make a conclusion is the most solid work to date, very easy to read and understand.

It should be an example for other books. Matzinger should write a book about Thracians as well.

 

[Aspurg]

Dardanians by Strabo were mentioned as Illyrians

That is not in dispute, there were Illyrian speakers in late Iron Age Dardania calling themselves Dardanians.

BUT.

Illyrians were Glasinac culture 5th century BC invaders from the West. Archeological evidence indicates presence of two previous layers.

Thracian - Pšeničevo culture along Gava culture,

Mediana-Brnjica culture, non-Illyrian, non-Thracian. very likely related to the Dardanians of Troyan war. Gava culture were found in this context near Mediana actually, they predate Pšeničevo finds. These are likely two different V13 groups.

As there are Pšeničevo finds at Troy, as there are no Glasinac finds at Troy (Glasinac was much weaker at that time also) it is crystal clear Illyrians have nothing to do with Dardani of Troy.

If Dardani are understood as something else from Thracians as they were too at Tryo, likely some Dardanii travelled along with Pšeničevo people.

Illyrians established their rule, they took up the name of Dardanii which was from the indigenous population.

And there are reports of slavery in Dardanians. Papazoglu believed this was ethnically based, Illyrians enslaving pre-Illyrian populations, and others also agreed with her.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

I am from Kosovo and there is absolutely nothing that suggests that Dardania or Kosovo was the only Albanian homeland. It is merely suggested as to of been part of the area where the whole Albanian-Romanian/Vlach contact happened. Even Michiel de vaan suggests this theory. Albanian also picked up Dalmatian Latin influence, the Gheg-Tosk split which by some is believed to of even happened before the Slavic incursions, such as by Eric Hamp, or right during the Slavic incursions. Also toponyms tin Northern Albania that were picked up by Slavs from Albanian. I post here something I posted from Noel Malcolm's theory, since I prefer his logic way more over a guy like Matzinger who makes no sense.

[FONT=&quot]The origins of the Albanians must be sought, therefore, on the Illyrian side of the divide - particularly in the mountains round Kosovo, in the Malesi, and in the tangle of mountains stretching north from there through Montenegro.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The main area of the Balkan interior where a Latin-speaking population may have continued, in both towns and country, after the Slav invasion, has already been mentioned: it included the upper Morava valley, northern Macedonia, and the whole of Kosovo. It is, therefore, in the uplands of the Kosovo area (particularly, but not only, on the western side, including parts of Montenegro) that this Albanian-Vlach symbiosis probably developed. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]All the evidence comes together at this point. What it suggests is that the Kosovo region, together with at least part of northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs. One large group of Vlachs seems to have broken away and moved southwards by the ninth or tenth century; the proto-Romanians stayed in contact with Albanians significantly longer, before drifting north-eastwards, and crossing the Danube in the twelfth century.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is more a speculation than a conclusion; and it is not meant to exclude other areas in the Albanian (or Montenegrin) mountains further to the west, given that 'Dardania' was, essentially, a tribal division, not a linguistic one.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But if Illyrian survived as Albanian, it did so only by means of physical contraction, withdrawal and isolation, which naturally would have taken place in mountain terrain. This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries. The Illyrians who lived on the coastal plains were Romanized, like the ones on the Dalmatian coast and indeed in most areas of Yugoslavia. By the time the Slavs began arriving in the sixth century, there were only scattered pockets of speakers of the old 'barbarian' languages left anywhere in the Balkans, and all of them were in mountainous regions.[/FONT]

Anyway, have a nice night, man. I'm out of here for now.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Here is another part from Strabo

The Bessi live in huts and lead a wretched life; and their country borders on Mount Rhodope, on the country of the Paeonians, and on that of two Illyrian peoples — the Autariatae, and the Dardanians.

Illyrian place names also dominate Dardania. Although Darda was both a Thracian and Illyrian word it seems like some other common words. Toponyms in South-East Serbia in Thracian territory occur such as Dardapara or Darda-para, two units composed together which does not occur in Illyrian for example or even Albanian.


Anyway, good night.

 

[Johane Derite]

Here is another part from Strabo



Illyrian place names also dominate Dardania. Although Darda was both a Thracian and Illyrian word it seems like some other common words. Toponyms in South-East Serbia in Thracian territory occur such as Dardapara or Darda-para, two units composed together which does not occur in Illyrian for example or even Albanian.


Anyway, good night.

Yeah, but here is the thing. Strabo is a roman era author. Appian for example called the Maedi Illyrian, despite them being one of the most famous Thracian tribes, he also called the Perrhaebi Illyrian, despite them being in Thessaly.

Many chroniclers might list muslim Albanians as turks because of their religion in Ottoman times, Arberesh were called Greci by Italians because of their religion.

2000 years ago, you think that these chroniclers were going and doing ethnic analysis? If a tribe was subject of the Illyrian kingdom, they probably would have called them Illyrian.

The Dardanians are mentioned way before Illyrians ever are, and they are mentioned in Troy alongside Mysians, Thracians, Phrygians, etc. There are many more other reasons to be sceptical, since they are also mentioned often independently of Illyrians.

 

[Johane Derite]

I am from Kosovo and there is absolutely nothing that suggests that Dardania or Kosovo was the only Albanian homeland. It is merely suggested as to of been part of the area where the whole Albanian-Romanian/Vlach contact happened. Even Michiel de vaan suggests this theory. Albanian also picked up Dalmatian Latin influence, the Gheg-Tosk split which by some is believed to of even happened before the Slavic incursions, such as by Eric Hamp, or right during the Slavic incursions. Also toponyms tin Northern Albania that were picked up by Slavs from Albanian. I post here something I posted from Noel Malcolm's theory, since I prefer his logic way more over a guy like Matzinger who makes no sense.

Who is suggesting that Kosova is the only Albanian homeland. Neither Shtip nor Nish are in KS. We are trying to honestly solve this problem. I don't care if proto-Albanian comes from Moldova if it is the truth, it is just important that we know for sure, and the only way is to prove it conclusively, that means challenging weak arguments.

Noel Malcolm here anyway isn't that far from Matzinger, he is arguing here that proto-Albanian speakers, both Tosk and Gege, descend from tribes in Kosova and a bit of Montenegro and North Albania, that expanded into Albania in the post-Roman period.

But Matzinger already debunked this argument about the Thracian compounds a couple of years ago (bessa+para), firstly, it doesn't hold as this type of grammatical change is totally feasible from proto-Albanian to Albanian, much more drastic grammatical changes have happened since proto-Indo-European till now, secondly, Matzinger has written papers that argue that Albanian is not descended from Thracian, so again this is not an argument for Albanian descending from the language called Illyrian, it is just possibly an argument for it not descending from the language known as Thracian.

Setting up this situation that the ancient Balkans must have had only two languages, Thracian or Illyrian, based on fragmentarily passed down political and historical passages, when we already know that Phrygian, Armenian, Paeonian, and possibly languages like Macedonian, were non-Thracian, non-Illyrian languages that belonged to the "Balkan Indo-European" group.

Personally I have bet on Dardanian for a while now because it fits across all domains, it is north enough, it is west enough, it is south enough, it is east enough, etc, etc. I am open to being wrong and it being any other group.

 

[enter_tain]

No one is saying Matzinger cannot be wrong, he might very well be.

But calling him a hoax/lier/clown just because you don't agree is dishonest.

There is no doubt that this book, on the way it's categorized, the chronological order, the bringing of ancient DNA, archeology and linguistics to make a conclusion is the most solid work to date, very easy to read and understand.

It should be an example for other books. Matzinger should write a book about Thracians as well.

What do you call someone that

(1) makes up ghost populations

(2) creates fake/undocumented migrations

(3) "etymologizes" unattested languages

And every few years, always changes the facts, every time he needs to write a book. If you don't like hoaxer, you can call him a bullshitter.

It should be an example for other books. Matzinger should write a book about Thracians as well.

If Matzinger wants to be useful he can start comparing Messapian and Albanian, because those languages are actually attested and there is a lot of work left to be done there.

And as I explained, there is something very important there. That "sk-h" shift he uses for Shkodra being "irregular" (even though all "sk" -> "h" from the time of the Roman Republic are rendered as "shk"), is also attested in Messapian.

The Albanian word "hip" (hop on), comes *skupa. This is also seen in Messapian "hipades", meaning the sk->h split happened >3000 years ago, when Illyrian/Messapian were one language.

But that would be actually doing work, and not just hoaxing/bullshitting by making up crap with 0 backing.

 

[gtcc1]

Romanian/Albanian relationship

My point is not that this words are Dacian,neither i care for his opinion but there in the paper is Orel's dictionary which is cited by him about common lexic between Romanian and Albanian which I guess should be adressed.

I can't understand why so much emphasis on supposed common Albanian/Romanian words. A well known Italian linguist has maintained that there are 40 common words, and he can't really tell if these words were given or borrowed. I have to find the name of the famous linguist and will report.

 

[Hawk]

What do you call someone that

(1) makes up ghost populations

(2) creates fake/undocumented migrations

(3) "etymologizes" unattested languages

And every few years, always changes the facts, every time he needs to write a book. If you don't like hoaxer, you can call him a bullshitter.



If Matzinger wants to be useful he can start comparing Messapian and Albanian, because those languages are actually attested and there is a lot of work left to be done there.

And as I explained, there is something very important there. That "sk-h" shift he uses for Shkodra being "irregular" (even though all "sk" -> "h" from the time of the Roman Republic are rendered as "shk"), is also attested in Messapian.

The Albanian word "hip" (hop on), comes *skupa. This is also seen in Messapian "hipades", meaning the sk->h split happened >3000 years ago, when Illyrian/Messapian were one language.

But that would be actually doing work, and not just hoaxing/bullshitting by making up crap with 0 backing.

You just want to hear what pleases you. But you are at the wrong place, we are not people-pleasers, otherwise we would sell ice cream for a living.

Well, there is no ghost population, Central Balkans is the home of the largest Albanian Y-DNA: E-V13. Wouldn't surprise me if Proto-Albanoid was one of the languages brought by South-East Urnfielders. It would make sense what Cabej/Orel and many other linguists were arguing that Beskidy/Carpathians have fundamentally Albanoid-like origin.

The various South-East Urnfielders were at their peak of power during Late Bronze Age when they migrated en mass deper into Balkans, but they aimed for richer cultures/kingdoms like that of Mycenae and in Anatolia the Hittite Empire and various Luwian kingdoms. No wonder their trajectory is more South/Central into Balkans and South/East.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

So you're telling me Albanian is not Illyrian but somehow
picked up large tools from the Iron Age Glasinac culture
which was an Illyrian culture.


Somehow Albanian also picked up plenty of cognates with
Illyrian and place names even in Bosnia and Croatia
that literally have an explanation in the Albanian language.
Not to mention all the J2b2 found there.


Somehow also the language picked up Dalmatian Latin influence and Eastern Latin influence indicating a
historical presence clearly within Illyrian territory during the Roman period.
And even picked up Ancient Greek loan words.

And even Illyrian names and Illyrian mythology, costumes and cultural material which derives from these people.

And also developed a symbiosis with the Vlachs or Romanians, some argue Romanian was essentially
the same as proto-Albanian. Yet supposedly all these people
were not Illyrians despite they lived in Illyrian territory.
And there is virtually no mention of any other people.
Most tribes fall into either Illyrian, Thracian or Dacian classification.
Romanians/Aromanians are mentioned in Kosovo for example.


Somehow Albanians came to dominate Albania, Kosovo, parts of
Montenegro and Macedonia. All historically inhabited by Illyrians.
And in many of these areas the Slavs even picked up toponyms from Albanian most likely.
Not to mention the Gheg-Tosk split which is considered to be very old.

Now you want me to believe some people lived here that managed
to survive that supposedly wasn't Illyrian all these years ?

I mean do you see how stupid this guys theories are dude ?

The guy is a total moron. He tried to argue Albanian could not be from Albania based on some changes of words which happened in so many other words. He copy pasted
Schramm's theory.

We have people who studied Albanian language for 60 years and never came to a definite
conclusion because there isn't enough material to go by.
Hamp considered it to be related to Messapian that came from the Western Balkans originally.
This dude is good at updating with another tin foil hat
theory every month, that is what he is good at updating.


Only way Albanian could not be Illyrian in this case is that it has changed since ancient times.
And it is the same case with Messapian. They were probably of some proto-Illyrian stock originally.
we don't know enough of the languages of Illyrian to even make such conclusions also. But based on cultural and genetic material so far, they shared a common origin
most definitely. There might of developed different branches like with any other people or country you see today such as Gheg and Tosk.

 

[Hawk]

Yes, and someone needs to actually tell you that J2b2-L283 ranges from 7% to Tosks to 16-20% to Ghegs. We have 2 other major Albanian Y-DNA like the largest one which is almost uniform among Gheg and Tosk like E-V13 and R1b-Z2105 although less but still present R1b-PF7563. Or you forgot about that part? Or in your book/POW they are assimilated?

 

[Archetype0ne]

At this point its amusing NGL. The mental gymnastics by some belong in Cirque du Soleil.

:embarassed:

 

[exercitus]

Johan Derite, why don't you present us the new(!) arguments and evidences that Matzinger is utilizing to back up his theory of a non-Illyrian, non-Daco/Thracian origin of the proto-Albanians !?
Sincerely i'm very curious to find out what Matzinger has discovered!
Thanks

 

[Johane Derite]

Johan Derite, why don't you present us the new(!) arguments and evidences that Matzinger is utilizing to back up his theory of a non-Illyrian, non-Daco/Thracian origin of the proto-Albanians !?
Sincerely i'm very curious to find out what Matzinger has discovered!
Thanks

The crux of his argument is that the minimal phonology of Illyrian that has been extracted from multiple personal Illyrian names in the epigraphic record of Illyria from the 6th century
BC until the late roman era do not match with the phonology of Albanian, and so cannot be the parent language of Albanian.

He finds support for this in the fact that ancient toponyms inherited by Albanians (Lezhë, Shkodër, Durrës, Shkumbin, etc) do not show a pre-Roman Albanian accent but a post-Roman Albanian accent, which means proto-Albanians learnt these placenames at the same time they learnt latin loan words like "shkollë" from scuola, etc. This would mean that proto-Albanian speakers came to these places in the post roman period of the balkans (after 167 BC).

The phonology of Illyrian likewise seems to match that of the "East Alpine Block" in which languages like Pannonian also fit, but Messapic and Albanian do not. This is from the work of linguist Peter Anreiter which matzinger is in agreement with.

 

[Johane Derite]

He argues that Albanian is a typical balkan indo european language alongside Messapic, Phrygian, Armenian, Greek, etc.

He says it is possible this group would have had contact with the East Alpine Block in the Balkans, without this necessitating phylogenetic relationship. German for example has some ancient toponyms that are originally from long ago contact with celtic languages and not because they are two branches of the same group.

 

[Johane Derite]

Johan Derite, why don't you present us the new(!) arguments and evidences that Matzinger is utilizing to back up his theory of a non-Illyrian, non-Daco/Thracian origin of the proto-Albanians !?
Sincerely i'm very curious to find out what Matzinger has discovered!
Thanks

I posted screenshots and google translates yesterday, they are in the previou pages of this thread.

Some very important statements,
-Illyrians almost untouched by urnfield culture
-Very little thraco-cimmerians influence on Illyrians
- Illyrian material culture was fully formed in 10th century BC,
-Illyrians all across Glasinac-Mati were buried with incised Grey ware, whereas in lofkendi and south east Albania tumuli some Illyrians buried with Matt painted earthen ware, which is seen in Epirus and Macedonia.

 

[exercitus]

The toponymic argument has become rhetorical(!), did Matzinger also (re)analyzed toponyms such as Mat, Ishem, Pedhane (from B.Demiraj) etc !?Actually its enough 50 km distance from the sea shore to gradually lose maritme vocabolary and the original phonetic version of the toponyms Durres, Shkoder etc Lezhe: why he puts it in this category !?
The Dardanian anthroponymy is typical central 'Illyrian' (from Katicic, Alfoldy, Papazoglu, Loma, Nikolic, Rendovic etc) also classified as Delmato-Pannonian, names like Bardo/Barduri/Bardylis, Bato, Lika, Dasius, Ando, Pladomen, Ulk (attested also in Massapian as Ulkan!) etc are Pan-Illyrian, encountered in every corner of western Balkan, from Veroia (north Greece) till the Illyrian Azali in today Hungary, what new evidence is offering Matzinger in this aspect (or even Anreiter!) !?
I mean i'm curious to know if he has found any new linguistic evidence to fully exclude the linguistic compatibility between the modern Albanian language and the few 'Illyrian' glosses (anthroponyms, toponyms, hydromyns etc) !??