Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Androgenica]

LMAO, get lost clown. I would offer you to clean my toilet how about that.

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.

After you clean my toilet, I will drop a suitcase full of documents why it was beneficial for you to do so. You will feel self worth after it. Only a loser would reject this awesome offer.

 

[Excine]

@Androgenica this thread is filled with people who consistently ad hominem others.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Are you talking about your camp, or replying to your own sock accounts? The only losers here are people making multiple accounts and up-voting their own comment. You want respect for high-fiving yourself? Or people to take you seriously?
Throw all these tantrums all you want, it's not going to make you "Illyrian".

 

[blevins13]

Are you talking about your camp, or replying to your own sock accounts? The only losers here are people making multiple accounts and up-voting their own comments. You want respect for high-fiving yourself? Or people to take you seriously?
Throw all these tantrums all you want, it's not going to make you "Illyrian".

The chances of him being Illyrian decent seem similar or better than the chances of Modern Greeks being Ancient ones or Modern Italians being Ancient Latin or Italic decent.


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[PaleoRevenge]

The chances of him being Illyrian decent seem similar or better than the chances of Modern Greeks being Ancient ones or Modern Italians being Ancient Latin or Italic decent.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

As a haplgroup E individual, the best I can do for him is assign a janitor decent from Illyria, according to their own theories, low status slaves, being whipped around and forced to clean J2b Illyrian ships. I could also assign him a Thracian king status, but I don't want to insult the guy.

 

[Androgenica]

Excine, pretty much every Balkan thread ends up like this.

Anyways, I don't see why he's so infatuated with toilets in every reply. Maybe that's from where he is typing?

 

[Androgenica]

these cultures are classified as Eastern Hallstatt, Eastern Urnfielder groups by all archaeologists. Psenicevo is directly derived from Belegis-Gava/Gava Culture. We also have the Channeled-Ware/Kanellure/Fluted Ware incursion into Early Iron Age Macedonia, Albania, Northern Greece as well. Subclade TMRCA, aDNA leaks, burial rite of cremation of these people, everything points to that direction that E-V13 is to be linked with Gava and broader Eastern Urnfielder or Carpathian Urnfielder complexes. These group of people were extremely important during Bronze to Iron Age transition, hence the importance mimicks the E-V13 wide-Balkan presence, and to a degree Central European presence.

Whoops. Thought my reply to this went through. Thank you for the clarification, Hawk.

Bulgarians are one of the highest E-V13 South Slavs, so this theory makes sense at filling in the gaps.

 

[Dushman]

As a haplgroup E individual, the best I can do for him is assign a janitor decent from Illyria, according to their own theories, low status slaves, being whipped around and forced to clean J2b Illyrian ships. I could also assign him a Thracian king status, but I don't want to insult the guy.

Says that guy that hides his Y-DNA and praises I2a-Din South as a warrior and brave clade descended from the Bastarnae.

Are you an I2a “Greek” bro?

 

[Hawk]

I don't exclude the possibility that Koszider hoard part of Proto-Illyrians might have included E-V13 which was dragged by R1b-L51 Tumulus people, but that's just a speculation so far. We need proper Glasinac samples in order to conclude anything. Even, if that's true, they wouldn't account more than ~10% of Illyrians still. The vast majority were from Central-Southern Balkans tribes and Daco-Thracians.

 

[torzio]

What's so difficult to understand? For Matzinger, Albanian is a different language (not the same, not a linear descendant) from Illyrian AND closely related to it:
Matzinger (2018), Lexicon of Albanian, Handbook of Comparative and Historical Indo-European Linguistics
[....] Albanian cannot be regarded as an offspring of Illyrian or even Thracian but must be considered to be a modern continuation of some other undocumented Indo-European Balkan idiom. However, Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and also Messapic (a language spoken in Southern Italy in antiquity but originally of Balkan origin), which is why Albanian in some instances may shed some light on the explanation of Messapic as well as Illyrian words (see Matzinger 2005): (Messapic-) Oenotrian ῥινός ‘clouds’ ~ Old Geg rẽ, Old Tosk rē ‘cloud’, the Messapic gloss βρένδο- ‘stag’ and the place-name Brundisium (Italian Bríndisi) ~ Old Geg brĩ, or the name of the Illyrian tribe of the Taulantioi ~ Albanian dallëndyshe ‘swallow’ (see Eichner 2004: 10 f.).

Messapic language is Daunian language it came via Iapodes in the area where Croatia meets Slovenia .............it mixed with Local Italian language once arriving in Italy............its most populous users in Italy where the Daunians ( the biggest of the 3 tribes ) ...................more than 600 years past before it was used as a trade language between messapic Italy and Epirote lands.
It was not a pure Illyrian language after 600 years

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Says that guy that hides his Y-DNA and praises I2a-Din South as a warrior and brave clade descended from the Bastarnae.

Are you an I2a “Greek” bro?

I would have to know my own haplogroup to "hide" it. If I were to bet money on it, I would bet E, though not necessarily E-V13. I have no idea if anyone with my lineage has taken the test, is that data public like it used to be in the old project?

 

[Excine]

@Androgenica
Not quite, Bulgarians are not the South Slavs with the greatest E-V13; Montenegrins/Serbs of Montenegro and Macedonians are, respectively.
In reality, many E-V13 Bulgarians can trace their origin to Macedonia.

Montenegro: 26.48% https://www.poreklo.rs/2017/11/19/geneticka-slika-crne-gore/

Bulgaria: 18.1% http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

Macedonia: 19% 'Y-chromosome diversity of the three major ethno-linguistic groups in the Republic of North Macedonia'




Regardless, Montenegro has the greatest proportion of E-V13 among all Balkan Slavs.

 

[Hawk]

Montenegrins have massive founder effects , clan based.

And it's completely unsound, never heard that majority of E-V13 Bulgarians have Macedonian origin. Doesn't make sense.

 

[Excine]

@Hawk

The E-V13 from Zadar is upstream from Dushmani and Vasojevici. E-V13 from Bulgaria has much less diversity than in Montenegro regardless of clans like Vasojevici and Kuci.

Check the individual story of all the E-V13 Bulgarian samples you can find online. You'll find that many of them come from Macedonia or Serbia.

 

[torzio]

User Bruzmi on anthrogenica has made a great response on the issue of the linguistic classification of Albanian. Maybe some members here can learn quite a bit about it .

Clearly, some individuals on this forum are irritated and ignorant of what linguists are truly saying. Matzinger, who entirely dismisses a Thracian or Dacian origin for Albanian, despite being one of the more controversial scholars discussed on this forum. Despite this, the E-V13 dilemma has led users to incessantly clutch at baseless Dacian or Thracian origins for the Albanian language.

from the same book you used the upload
Apple Indo-Europeans divide, presumably on an east/west basis into Northwest
Indo-Europeans (pre Italics, Celts, and Phrygians] and Northern Indo-Europeans
(Germanics, Balto-Slavs/Albanians/Illyrians/Messapics).



Northwest Indo-Europeans are likely to have been the first inhabitants of Hallstatt.


Leaving behind the Balto-Slavs, the “Adriatic Indo-Europeans” all [together or
apart? (“not enough evidence”)] eventually move south of the Carpathians,
presumably along the middle Danube; the Messapics eventually cross the Adriatic.

 

[Hawk]

At this point i am convinced that you are trolling, how would selectively all 18-20% of E-V13 Bulgarians come from Macedonians and Serbs. Ridiculous attempt at propaganda.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

At this point i am convinced that you are trolling, how would selectively all 18-20% of E-V13 Bulgarians come from Macedonians and Serbs. Ridiculous attempt at propaganda.

Macedonians have a similar ratio of E-V13, almost identical. How can a nation of 1.3-4 million Macedonians give a nation of 7.3 mill Bulgarians their E-V13 for both to end up around 20%? Was Bulgaria empty? All their arguments have forced explanations, but you're a hater if you don't go along.

 

[Excine]

Who said anything about ethnicity? Many E-V13 who live in Bulgaria today lived in the Middle Ages in Macedonia and Serbia. They could be Slavic Macedonians, Vlachs, Bulgarians and many others. I'm not even counting Albanian migrations which increased E-V13 in Bulgaria.

Check the individual history of the E-V13 in Bulgaria from FTDNA/YFULL and the TMRCA of the ones who are uploaded on yfull which you can easily check. There are 22 Bulgarian samples on yfull. For almost half of them even existing TMRCA from non-Bulgarian (geographically) samples lies in the Middle Ages. There's a reason why E-V13 is not diverse in Bulgaria and Romania and it's not because they haven't tested enough.


Read up on Bulgaria's history. After the Balkan Wars and the split of Macedonia between Serbia/Yugoslavia and Greece, many Slavic Macedonians who considered themselves Bulgarians migrated massively to Bulgaria.

 

[enter_tain]

I am not putting a stamp here, but Matzinger is a respected linguist and Albanologist, he for sure has seen some kind of pattern.

Respected by who? By you and Johan Deranged? Who is quoting Matzinger?

You literally stated yourself this guy makes up new shit every year and contradicts himself. I know a large section of university profs bullshit their research hoping no one will check upon them, but this dude takes it to a new level. But hey as long as he keeps stuff coming every year. 2021 Matzinger was different from 2018 Matzinger, but wait till you see 2024 Matzinger on Ancient Aliens.