Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[torzio]

I read this in the past
IIRC ...........Liburnians from Asia ( Minor ) Anatolia came via Lycian tribe
They ruled over ( vassalized ) the Dalmatians up to the Dardani who where in southern Montenegro , who where north of the Bryges in modern Albania
this is the narrative
If you believe , so be it ..................my theory is herodotus mixed many stories into one .................so could be fact

there are notes about this from

Dr Danijel Džino is a Senior Lecturer in the Department of History and Archaeology

 

[Olti27]

We have the data, why not update this graph with the Croat Byzantine samples and the Croat Roman samples, it would complete the story of what happened to the Illyrians. I suspect they had become shifted to the green circle. All the Alb post-medieval and the only true medieval(the Korca 1400 AD) samples are all northern shifted, back toward the original Illyrians.

If we assume early Albanians start as a Thracian+east Paeonian population (E-V13+ R1b-Z2103), than the early Tosk group would have been genetically largely a population that derived from this newly arrived Thracian derived group that is expanding on largely Slavic speaking territory.

Early Tosks likely occupied this region.


The Korca sample would derive from the south-eastern most Tosk group expanding into the the Slavic speaking Morava valley. The medieval Alb sample that clusters the most near the ancient Illyrians is the 1400 AD Korca sample. And it is an almost perfect 70% Thracian 30% Slavic profile.

It is impossible for the tosk to have come from the north. Vlorë is still called Vlonë in geg witch means that Albanian speakers had to be already in Vlonë before the dialect split, ie before the slavic incursions.

p.s. it doesn't let me quote the image.

 

[Olti27]

I made these highlights a while ago, but it wasn't so obvious back then as it is now.

The coincidence of the Komani-Kruja sites with the Latin placenames (of a Dalmatian variety) makes no sense if the Komani-Kruja was the proto-Albanian speaking culture.

Why would the proto-Albanian culture be naming their places s in a dalmatian strain of balkan latin?

I would stay away from anything published by the serbs from 1980 to at least 2010. That was pure propaganda commissioned and imposed by politicians and the toxic situation created also by the media and the intelectual elites. On page 106 I posted an excerpt by Aleksander Stipcevic explaining very well the situation and how many serbian historian contradicted they previous studies to adapt to the new political situation.

Second point. How do we know that the Latin variation was of Dalmatian type. How do we know what the Dalmatian type was in the early middle ages.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Another way of looking at this problem. If Albanians are Illyrian derived, than they mixed with Levant and Anatolian "refugees" quite heavily, in the Roman period. Not only did they mix heavily, they did it more than the Greeks(modern mainland Greeks are less southern shift than ancient btw). The only way for a Illyrian population to end up so southerly shifted is to mix with west Asians quite heavily. Does that make sense? A mountain people that escaped Romanisation was mixing with Middle Fasteners? More than the Greeks? How did they linguistically survive?

However if we start with a population that's already southern shifted(Thracians) and escaped Romanisation by living in the mountains, maintaining Iron Age traditions and Iron Age genetics intact, than much of this southern shift is part of early Albanian and accounted for. I don't think the ancient Syrians were coming into the Balkans to milk sheep with the Bessi, or the conservative Bessi would be open to such intrusion into their community.

And the chronology does not add up. For early Albanian to start as a Illyrian survivor, it has to start as a heavily Levant mix population, than it would receive a small tilt from Balkan Slavs exposure. Like this.

But this is in conflict with chronology. The Alb post-medieval and the Korca medieval(the only true ethnic Alb in the mdv series) samples are all northern shifted, thus in conflict with the Illyrian model.

The Thracian model, has no such conflicts. If a Thracian population moved in around 900 AD and absorbed a Romanized Illyrian layer(that's heavily southern shifted and Balkan Slavs(HRV_Vinkdovci_Mdv as a visual proxy), the chronology works. The post-mdv and the Korca mdv (the only true ethnic Alb in the mdv series), are all part of the transition of this Thracian derived population shifting to the current Albanian cluster.

The Thracian model also satisfy the Slavic component in Albanians. To force a Illyrian hypothesis, than Albanians have to be something like 7-10% Slavic. This is not realistic. Anyhow, I am beating a dead horse here. More data will prove me correct and make other scenarios eventually impossible to argue.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Another helpful map, Albanian cluster 1400-1700 AD vs modern Albanian cluster. Any theory of the parent population needs to follow this chronology in movement/shift from point A(green cluster) to point B(orange cluster).

 

[torzio]

I read this in the past
IIRC ...........Liburnians from Asia ( Minor ) Anatolia came via Lycian tribe
They ruled over ( vassalized ) the Dalmatians up to the Dardani who where in southern Montenegro , who where north of the Bryges in modern Albania
this is the narrative
If you believe , so be it ..................my theory is herodotus mixed many stories into one .................so could be fact

A good example of an ethnographic topic built into the ‘knowledge’ about the Illyrian lands is a bizarre story about the Asian connections of the Liburni, which is in my opinion connected with the story of the rule of women in Liburnia. This story originates in Greek sources – the earliest source to mention the rule of women is pseudo-Scylax from mid-fourth century BC. In section 21 of this periplus it is stated that the Liburni are ruled by women, and that the wives of their free men used to cohabit with the slaves and males from neighbouring regions. A very si-milar, but more elaborated version is delivered by Nicolaus Damascenus in the 1st century BC. He states that the Liburni keep their wives in common and raise their children together, after they allot them by likeliness to the men.
15
The other piece of ‘knowledge’ comes from the Roman antiquarian Marcus Terrentius Varro in his work
On agriculture
. He says that Liburnian women are allowed to engage in sexual activities before marriage and that they can live un-married and bear children. He also notices that women are able to return to work immediately after childbirth. The information provided by Varro is strengthened by the fact that he visited Liburnia in person.
AD commentator on Vergil, comments briefly that the Liburni descended from the Amazons. This piece of ‘information’ is crucial for understanding Solinus’ bizarre statement on the Asian origins of the Liburni. While earliest mythological tradition located the Amazons imprecisely as ‘somewhere close to Troy’, a later strain of mythological geography moved their habitat along the mental maps of the Greeks, placing them outside of the boundaries of the expanding Greek world. One of the most popular ‘locations’ was the wider Black Sea region, and especially Asia Minor. It is not surprising that many Greek cities in Asia Minor reinvented their past by claiming origins from the Amazons in a later period.
20
This interesting piece of ‘knowledge’ about the Liburni adds another dimension to the story. It does not maer whether Servius and Solinus followed the same sources as Nicolaus Damascenus or the author of pseudo-Scylax’s Periplus
, or whether they read Varro. It matters that they both were ‘dipping’ into the same pool of information transmitted by earlier authors, the discourse on the Liburni. Taking into account the ‘knowledge’ that the Liburni were ‘ruled by women’, and the unusual sexual behaviour of their women, it seems logical for classically educated intellectuals to place them in some relation to the Amazons, who are located in Asia Minor, being an ‘Asian tribe’.
16


their main diety was Sentona, the patron of sea travellers

 

[Johane Derite]

I would stay away from anything published by the serbs from 1980 to at least 2010. That was pure propaganda commissioned and imposed by politicians and the toxic situation created also by the media and the intelectual elites. On page 106 I posted an excerpt by Aleksander Stipcevic explaining very well the situation and how many serbian historian contradicted they previous studies to adapt to the new political situation.

Second point. How do we know that the Latin variation was of Dalmatian type. How do we know what the Dalmatian type was in the early middle ages.

There is no doubt that these are latin toponyms, and the dalmatian variety is from the phonetic form (see stadtmuller) of the toponyms.

You can read the same thing about these toponyms written by germans, english, etc. There is no doubt they are latin.

Kashnjet <- Castanetum
Kallmet <- Calametum
Qerret <- Ceretum
Laç <- Latio
Vinjall <- Vinealis
Mbrakull <- Oraculum
Fulqet <- Filicetum
Rripë <- Ripa
Rrjolli <- Rivulus
Pëdhana <- Pedanea
Qelzë <- Cella
Vjerdhë <- Viridis
Gushti <- Augustus
Pjan <- Planus

Etc.

 

[Johane Derite]

You've mentioned such a population also spanning all the way to Ulpiana, could you provide the sources again, can't remember which post it was. All of this makes deciphering the genome of these people even more important. I think it is very likely to yield J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045+, among other branches.

Are you referring to the wilkes quote?

"There can surely be no doubt that the Komani-Kruja cemeteries indicate the survival of a non-Slav population between the sixth and ninth centuries, and their most likely identification seems to be with a Romanized population of lllyrian origin driven out by Slav settlements further north, the 'Romanoi" mentioned by Constantine Porphyrogenitus.

This interpretation is supported by the concentration of Latin place-names around the Lake of Shkoder, in the Drin and Fan valleys and along the road from Lissus to Ulpiana in Kosovo, with some in the Black Drin and Mat valleys, a distribution limited on the south by the line of the Via Egnatia."

 

[mount123]

Are you referring to the wilkes quote?

"There can surely be no doubt that the Komani-Kruja cemeteries indicate the survival of a non-Slav population between the sixth and ninth centuries, and their most likely identification seems to be with a Romanized population of lllyrian origin driven out by Slav settlements further north, the 'Romanoi" mentioned by Constantine Porphyrogenitus.

This interpretation is supported by the concentration of Latin place-names around the Lake of Shkoder, in the Drin and Fan valleys and along the road from Lissus to Ulpiana in Kosovo, with some in the Black Drin and Mat valleys, a distribution limited on the south by the line of the Via Egnatia."

Yes, that is what I meant. Thanks.

 

[Johane Derite]

The ancient authors that mentioned the connection between the balkan dardani and anatolian dardani did claim them to be colonists from anatolia actually.
I also remember Herodotus claiming somewhere that the anatolian mysians overran all of europe at one point, but didnt think much of it. Ill try find it.

Ok, I found the quote from Herodotus, it claims mysians invaded europe with Teucrians before the trojan war, subdued the thracians and made it all the way to the Ionian sea and Peneios river in Greece:

"For of all the armies of which we have knowledge this proved to be by far the greatest; so that neither that led by Dareios against the Scythians appears anything as compared with it, nor the Scythian host, when the Scythians pursuing the Kimmerians made invasion of the Median land and subdued and occupied nearly all the upper parts of Asia, for which invasion afterwards Dareios attempted to take vengeance, nor that led by the sons of Atreus to Ilion, to judge by that which is reported of their expedition, nor that of the Mysians and Teucrians, before the Trojan War, who passed over into Europe by the Bosphorus and not only subdued all the Thracians, but came down also as far as the Ionian Sea and marched southwards to the river Peneios."

 

[Hawk]

Ok, I found the quote from Herodotus, it claims mysians invaded europe with Teucrians before the trojan war, subdued the thracians and made it all the way to the Ionian sea and Peneios river in Greece:
"For of all the armies of which we have knowledge this proved to be by far the greatest; so that neither that led by Dareios against the Scythians appears anything as compared with it, nor the Scythian host, when the Scythians pursuing the Kimmerians made invasion of the Median land and subdued and occupied nearly all the upper parts of Asia, for which invasion afterwards Dareios attempted to take vengeance, nor that led by the sons of Atreus to Ilion, to judge by that which is reported of their expedition, nor that of the Mysians and Teucrians, before the Trojan War, who passed over into Europe by the Bosphorus and not only subdued all the Thracians, but came down also as far as the Ionian Sea and marched southwards to the river Peneios."

I adjusted the autosomal models, and the Kapitan Andreevo samples are interesting bunch, they do require a bit of Marmaris_Chalcolithic, but i think that's quite normal because they lived in proximity, but IMO Riverman is right, they also require a bit of North_Carpathian-like or approximate, i know it's against all odds when you check the rich WHG region, but Vatin Culture is not considered Encrusted Pottery Culture, it's considered a native culture of lower Danube, which had some characteristics from Starcevo/Vinca up until MBA. Some of Vatin people affected Ottomani/Gava, some in south Paracin/Brnjica. I think it's a good candidate to connect the whole Daco-Thracian/Balkan-Carpathian koine. And, it's right there, in Banat, Southern Pannonia/Northern Balkans.

 

[torzio]

A good example of an ethnographic topic built into the ‘knowledge’ about the Illyrian lands is a bizarre story about the Asian connections of the Liburni, which is in my opinion connected with the story of the rule of women in Liburnia. This story originates in Greek sources – the earliest source to mention the rule of women is pseudo-Scylax from mid-fourth century BC. In section 21 of this periplus it is stated that the Liburni are ruled by women, and that the wives of their free men used to cohabit with the slaves and males from neighbouring regions. A very si-milar, but more elaborated version is delivered by Nicolaus Damascenus in the 1st century BC. He states that the Liburni keep their wives in common and raise their children together, after they allot them by likeliness to the men.
15
The other piece of ‘knowledge’ comes from the Roman antiquarian Marcus Terrentius Varro in his work
On agriculture
. He says that Liburnian women are allowed to engage in sexual activities before marriage and that they can live un-married and bear children. He also notices that women are able to return to work immediately after childbirth. The information provided by Varro is strengthened by the fact that he visited Liburnia in person.
AD commentator on Vergil, comments briefly that the Liburni descended from the Amazons. This piece of ‘information’ is crucial for understanding Solinus’ bizarre statement on the Asian origins of the Liburni. While earliest mythological tradition located the Amazons imprecisely as ‘somewhere close to Troy’, a later strain of mythological geography moved their habitat along the mental maps of the Greeks, placing them outside of the boundaries of the expanding Greek world. One of the most popular ‘locations’ was the wider Black Sea region, and especially Asia Minor. It is not surprising that many Greek cities in Asia Minor reinvented their past by claiming origins from the Amazons in a later period.
20
This interesting piece of ‘knowledge’ about the Liburni adds another dimension to the story. It does not maer whether Servius and Solinus followed the same sources as Nicolaus Damascenus or the author of pseudo-Scylax’s Periplus
, or whether they read Varro. It matters that they both were ‘dipping’ into the same pool of information transmitted by earlier authors, the discourse on the Liburni. Taking into account the ‘knowledge’ that the Liburni were ‘ruled by women’, and the unusual sexual behaviour of their women, it seems logical for classically educated intellectuals to place them in some relation to the Amazons, who are located in Asia Minor, being an ‘Asian tribe’.
16
their main diety was Sentona, the patron of sea travellers

Amazons are scythians who fought alongside men as equals...............over 350 graves of females with weapons have been found ( so far ) on the north side of the black sea

 

[Archetype0ne]

I lost IQ reading some of the posts from paleorevenge, a dozen more and I might end up agreeing with him.

Stop drawing like you just discovered crayons.
First understand what a PCA is and what are the limitations, clean your PCA up then search for the patterns.
You are drawing lines from Albania EBA to Albania mdv without sense or logic.
First the move is on the Yamnaya - Balkan CHL axis which brings the paleoBalkan samples such as MNELBA, MKDanc, ALBMBA/anc to an intermediary position between ALBEBA and ALBNCHL
Then post antiquity the axis of admixture changes, between the Slavic and the East Med components.

As can be seen these are the very conclusions of the Southern Arc Paper.
These two axis between Yamnaya - Balkans Chl, then between East Med and Slavic is exactly what allows modern Albanians to cluster with ancient samples from the region since the MBA (By the time the outlier ALB_EBA intermixed with ALB_Chl).

Now please stop using your crayons and posting gibberish, enough IQ lost for the day.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I lost IQ reading some of the posts from paleorevenge, a dozen more and I might end up agreeing with him.

You don't have much to begin with. And emotionally, you're basically a toddler.

Stop drawing like you just discovered crayons.
First understand what a PCA is and what are the limitations, clean your PCA up then search for the patterns.
You are drawing lines from Albania EBA to Albania mdv without sense or logic.

Being familiar with the PCA software, does not automatically you good at modeling or interpretations. In the end each product is as good its producer. Yes it would be good for me to learn the software and use it, it would speed up pattern hunting, but right now I don't have the time.

First the move is on the Yamnaya - Balkan CHL axis which brings the paleoBalkan samples such as MNELBA, MKDanc, ALBMBA/anc to an intermediary position between ALBEBA and ALBNCHL
Then post antiquity the axis of admixture changes, between the Slavic and the East Med components.

That's where you are actually wrong. Your step by step approach method will only work if you picked the correct ancestral population, with the assumption that you even have it in the sample. Also ignoring the giant possibility of multiple ancestral populations (Thracian, Paeonian-Dardanian, Illyrian) which have different starting points. Now you want to remove out modern populations, except Alb and compare them to ancient coordinates, to get endless eclipsing of of samples to prove you are ancient. Nice graph, pat yourself in the back.

My graphs might look crude, Thracian to modern Albanian and Illyrian to modern Albanian. You think steps are being ignored, or movements distorted because you think every step should be examined by age, Alb to IA, Alb to mdv, etc... In my opinion an all inclusive graph has taken the changes into account, if that's not correct, than such graphs are meaningless, or you guys can't digest the data and there is no purpose in making these graphs. If graphs can't display distances with endless coordinates as unit values, than why make them?

As can be seen these are the very conclusions of the Southern Arc Paper.
These two axis between Yamnaya - Balkans Chl, then between East Med and Slavic is exactly what allows modern Albanians to cluster with ancient samples from the region since the MBA (By the time the outlier ALB_EBA intermixed with ALB_Chl).

OK, this was already assumed based on prior data sets, not sure what this has to do with my crayons.

Now please stop using your crayons and posting gibberish, enough IQ lost for the day.

Models are as good as their maker and their honesty. 2% Slavic, does that smell the BS test? Do you understand that you can model Albanian with almost any Euro population? You can do Mycenean plus loads of Slavic? Buddy if you have any integrity you would try Paeonian(Macedonian) as primary component, than another model with Thracian. That's how an open minded person would approach problems.

Here is my suggestion, from my crayon based model. Try a Thracian, Kenete and medieval Croat mix. Try that formula.

In the end it depends on integrity, which Alb post-mdv are you using? The southern most shifted fellow that clusters with Kenete?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Settlements in Bulgaria that appear to have Albanian etymology.

1) Spatovo
https://bg-m-wikipedia-org.translat...tr_sl=bg&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

It recalls the Albanian tribe of Shpata, and toponyms with that name. Also a region south of Elbasan. Shpata translates to sword in Albanian. The word for shoulder might also be related, shpatull.

The Spata family (Albanian: Shpata, Greek: Σπάτα, Σπάτας) was an Albanian noble family active in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, initially as Venetian vassals and later as Ottoman vassals. The family's progenitors were the brothers John Spata and Sgouros Spata. Shpata means "sword" in Albanian.^[1]

In the first half of the 14th century, mercenaries, raiders and migrants known in Greek as Άλβανοί (Albanoi or "Albanians") flooded into Greece (specifically raiding Thessaly in 1325 and 1334).^[2] In 1358, Albanians overran the regions of Epirus, Acarnania and Aetolia and established two principalities under their leaders, John Spata and Peter Losha.^[1] Naupactus (Lepanto) was later taken in 1378.^[1] The Spata family frequently collaborated with the Ottomans and saw them as protectors.^[3]

2) Zgurovo
https://bg-m-wikipedia-org.translat...tr_sl=bg&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

It recalls the Albanian surname Zgura, was more common in the middle ages, see Sgouros Spata above. Probably relates to the word gur, stone/rocks.

3) Dzhigurove, same as above but farther east shifted, closer to the original Iron Age Bessi territory.

From the village there is a beautiful view of the Melnish sand pyramids and the Strum valley with the Kozhuh volcanic hill

One of the legends about the name of the village states that in the times of the Ottoman rule , an Ottoman rich man named Jigur-bey lived in the village, who had land with a fairly developed economy, which is why the village was richer than the neighboring villages. According to another legend, the village was named after its founder Hadji Gyuro. ^[3]



Under the names Zigurova and Zhigurova , the village is mentioned in Ottoman tax books from 1611-1617. ^[4] In the 19th century, the village had a mixed population, belonging to the Melnish kaaz of the Serski sanjak . In the " Ethnography of the vilayets of Adrianople, Monastir and Thessaloniki ", published in Constantinople in 1878 and reflecting the statistics of the male population from 1873, Djigourovo is indicated as a village with 122 households with 300 Muslim inhabitants and 60 Bulgarian inhabitants
https://bg-m-wikipedia-org.translat...tr_sl=bg&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

The settlement is located near Melnik Earth Pyramids, which are eroding volcanic rock formations, and possibly the real meaning behind the name.

4) Gega

https://bg-m-wikipedia-org.translat...tr_sl=bg&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

5) Skrut
It recalls the Albanian word Shkreti, which means poor. One is reminded of the Albanians of Reka who are referred as Shkreti by the Muslim Albanians in FYROM. The toponym occurs only once or twice in Albania.

The village is mentioned in an Ottoman ledger from 1570 under the name Iskrit. In the same year, 9 Muslim and 84 Christian households lived in the village . ^[2] In the 19th century, the village of Skrut had a mixed population. In the " Ethnography of the vilayets of Adrianople, Monastir and Thessaloniki ", published in Constantinople in 1878 and reflecting the male population statistics of 1873, Scriteis listed as a village with 63 households with 81 Bulgarian inhabitants and 65 Muslim inhabitants . ^[3] By 1900, according to Vasil Kanchov 's statistics ("Macedonia. Ethnography and statistics ") the population of the village of Skrut totals 355 people, of which 150 are Bulgarian-Christians, 205 are Turks . ^[4] All Christian Bulgarians in the village are under the supremacy of the Bulgarian Exarchate . According to the data of the secretary of the exarchate, Dimitar Mishev , in 1905 there were 280 Bulgarian exarchists in Skrut. ^[5]

6) Gyueshevo
It recalls the Albanian word gjysh - grandfather.

Gyueshevo (Bulgarian: Гюешево, pronounced [ˈɡju.ɛʃɛvo]; also transliterated Gjueshevo, Guieshevo, Gjueševo) is a village in Kyustendil Municipality, Kyustendil Province, in western Bulgaria. As of 2006 the population is 275 and the mayor is Stoyne Maksimov. The village is located on the border with North Macedonia and is the most important of the three border checkpoints between the two countries. It is the last stop of the railway from Sofia. This railway is intended to link the capital to Skopje, but the Macedonian section of the line has not been built. Gyueshevo lies at 42°14′13″N 22°28′35″E, 1,016 metres above sea level, in the Osogovo mountains. The local railway station was built in 1910, while the first school dates to 1888. The Prosveta community centre (chitalishte) was opened in 1921. There is also a church mausoleum dedicated to the perished Bulgarian soldiers in the Balkan Wars and the First World War. Gyueshevo was first mentioned in 1570 as Gyuveshevo. The name is thought to originate from the personal name Gyuesh, probably a derivative of George; –esh is a rare personal name suffix used in names such as Dobresh, Malesh or Rades

7) Golema Fucha and Mala Fucha

These two I am not so certain. The Bulgarian sources don't have a fixed explanation. The most compelling was that it could be from the Turkish word for barrel (fuci, also used in Albanian). The Albanian explanation would be fusha-field.

8) Novo Bardo

Initially I was going to ignore this, at it has a clear Slavic etomology to Golobordo. However reading its history we get this:

In 1971 , the village was renamed from Bardo to Novo Bardo

https://bg-m-wikipedia-org.translat...tr_sl=bg&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

There are barely any toponyms of this nature in Slavic countries. Plenty in Albania from the word bardhe - white.

9) Deep in the mountain strongholds of the original Bessi there also this: Barduche, bardutche, bardakchii, burduche
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/BU/48/Burduche.html

10) Beslen

The name recalls the tribe Bessi and the Albanian word bessa - honor/oath/faith

The village of Beslen is located in a mountainous area. It is located at the foot of the Beslen hill.



According to Yordan Zaimov , the etymology of the name is the older form Besnyane from the water name Byasna (river, pond), Besen (valley, stream) and the like. Comparable are the area Besen rid near Samuilovo , Petrichko, Besnicko dere near Varvara , Pazardzhishko, which is an adjective from the local name * Besnik , * Besnitsa , Besnichevets above Strumeshnitsa near Petrich, and others. The change is due to dissimilation сн > сл, probably under the influence of the following n , as in Rhodope slubnik , "fiancé" from snubnik .

https://bg-m-wikipedia-org.translat...tr_sl=bg&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

Besnik - honorable/loyal person in Albanian.

When I clicked on the Beslen hill, which is a border area shared with Greece, these are the following peaks:

Name	Name	Height	Location
Chiplak Bair	Χάρακας	1090 m [2]	border pyramid #152
	Σταυρός, Αγιος Νικόλαος	1058 m [2]
	Φυλάκιο	1011 m [2]	border pyramid #148
	Αγιος Νικόλαος, Σταυρό	949 m [2]
	Валанидиес	940 m [2]
Chiplak	Θυμνή, Τσιμπλάκι, Τσιπλάκι, Τσιπλάκι	908 m [2]
Dervish	Καλινέ, Δερβισέ	742 m [2]
	καλογερος	920 m [2]
	Bouzourani	600m [2]
St. Elias	Προφήτης Ηλίας	700m [2]
	Ράχες	940 m - 900 m [2]
	Tsakali, Mendra Gourtsa	840 m [2]

Buzo = lips/edge.

 

[Archetype0ne]

You don't have much to begin with. And emotionally, you're basically a toddler.





Being familiar with the PCA software, does not automatically you good at modeling or interpretations. In the end each product is as good its producer. Yes it would be good for me to learn the software and use it, it would speed up pattern hunting, but right now I don't have the time.




That's where you are actually wrong. Your step by step approach method will only work if you picked the correct ancestral population, with the assumption that you even have it in the sample. Also ignoring the giant possibility of multiple ancestral populations (Thracian, Paeonian-Dardanian, Illyrian) which have different starting points. Now you want to remove out modern populations, except Alb and compare them to ancient coordinates, to get endless eclipsing of of samples to prove you are ancient. Nice graph, pat yourself in the back.

My graphs might look crude, Thracian to modern Albanian and Illyrian to modern Albanian. You think steps are being ignored, or movements distorted because you think every step should be examined by age, Alb to IA, Alb to mdv, etc... In my opinion an all inclusive graph has taken the changes into account, if that's not correct, than such graphs are meaningless, or you guys can't digest the data and there is no purpose in making these graphs. If graphs can't display distances with endless coordinates as unit values, than why make them?




OK, this was already assumed based on prior data sets, not sure what this has to do with my crayons.




Model is as good as it's creator and their honesty. 2% Slavic, does that smell the BS test? Do you understand that you can model Albanian with almost any Euro population? You can do Mycenean plus loads of Slavic? Buddy if you have any integrity you would try it Paeonian(Macedonian) as primary component, than another model with Thracian. That's how an open minded person approaches problems.

Here is my suggestion, from my crayon based model. Try a Thracian, Kenete and medieval Croat mix. Try that formula.

In the end it depends on integrity, which Alb post-mdv are you using? The southern most shifted fellow that clusters with Kenete?

The Alb_mdv samples are straight out of the papers dataset as Lazaridis labeled them, it includes all of them.

Test them out on G25 outside of some outliers they indeed show low Slavic component vis a vis modern Albanians. I used Alb_PostMdv because the only modern (south)Albanian reference in the dataset looks like an outlier. But once Reich lab release the updated HO geno file even this wont be an issue as it has more references.


No, fstats does not work like G25 where you can get good distances with even nonsensical, ahistorical components. It is very hard to make viable models, and if I understand it correctly the models have a 95% confidence interval.

We find that qpAdm can accurately identify plausible admixture models and estimate admixture proportions when applied to simulated data, matching previous theoretical expectations (Haak et al. 2015). When an appropriate admixture model is suggested, qpAdm calculates P-values that follow a uniform distribution, suggesting that a cut-off value of 0.05 will result in the acceptance of a correct model in 95% of cases.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8049561/

In G25 you might be able to do Albanian = Mycenean + loads of Slavic as you say, but not here:

These stuff just gets rejected.

Edit:

Here is my suggestion, from my crayon based model. Try a Thracian, Kenete and medieval Croat mix. Try that formula.

Buddy if you have any integrity you would try it Paeonian(Macedonian) as primary component, than another model with Thracian. That's how an open minded person approaches problems.

Here is my suggestion, from my crayon based model. Try a Thracian, Kenete and medieval Croat mix. Try that formula.

^Neither do the models make sense, neither are they viable
Now

^This one is close but still doesn't work, cause as I said the main reference in the dataset for modern Albanians acts weird. Lets try mdvAlb maybe it will work

Went through the edit trouble, now if you have any integrity admit that you are wrong.
PS: By Thracians I assume you mean BGR ancient samples, well you should know that they are a lot closer autosomaly to Myceneans than the Macedonian samples. If anything Macedonian samples cluster as Illyrians and Cetina. Hence even if the very last model worked it would not have worked the way you thought.

Naming and visualizing the clusters:

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The Alb_mdv samples are straight out of the papers dataset as Lazaridis labeled them, it includes all of them.

Test them out on G25 outside of some outliers they indeed show low Slavic component vis a vis modern Albanians. I used Alb_PostMdv because the only modern (south)Albanian reference in the dataset looks like an outlier. But once Reich lab release the updated HO geno file even this wont be an issue as it has more references.


No, fstats does not work like G25 where you can get good distances with even nonsensical, ahistorical components. It is very hard to make viable models, and if I understand it correctly the models have a 95% confidence interval.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8049561/

In G25 you might be able to do Albanian = Mycenean + loads of Slavic as you say, but not here:

These stuff just gets rejected.

Edit:

^Neither do the models make sense, neither are they viable
Now

^This one is close but still doesn't work, cause as I said the main reference in the dataset for modern Albanians acts weird. Lets try mdvAlb maybe it will work

Went through the edit trouble, now if you have any integrity admit that you are wrong.
PS: By Thracians I assume you mean BGR ancient samples, well you should know that they are a lot closer autosomaly to Myceneans than the Macedonian samples. If anything Macedonian samples cluster as Illyrians and Cetina. Hence even if the very last model worked it would not have worked the way you thought.

Naming and visualizing the clusters:

I don't understand fstats, but I'll take your word for it and admit it I am wrong.

If I knew how to use that stuff, I would try to get Alb post-mdv to work first with early mdv populations mixtures. Maybe the data in incomplete (missing ingredient population), but that's how I would approach it. I work with chronology.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I don't understand fstats, but I'll take your word for it and admit it I am wrong.

If I knew how to use that stuff, I would try to get Alb post-mdv to work first with early mdv populations mixtures. Maybe the data in incomplete (missing ingredient population), but that's how I would approach it. I work with chronology.

User eupator did a noob friendly guide I learned from: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42684-admixtools2-TUTORIAL-for-WINDOWS?highlight=fstats
Otherwise I myself would have no clue.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I probably will become a user at one point.

 

[Excine]

@Archetype0ne kudos to you for dismantling the BS spewed by Paleo.