Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Riverman]

Riverman you are trying to placate people, by giving each one as a good parent a toy, here some Illyrian for you, some Macedonian for Timmy, etc... but describing Albanians as some ancient creole population that belonged to no culture horizon is even more horrible outcome. And not a great explanation. Such populations with no real identity will not survive any migration crisis, and would more willingly assimilate into imperial identity. The creole explanation would better fit the Vlach/Romanians formation.

The Komani-Kruja culture of 600-900AD (compassing roughly from Montenegrin border to western lake Ohrid), is a urban culture, not pastoral like the early Albanian, people lived in fixed settlements. First inconsistency. Literary inscriptions found are in Latin, suggesting a Latin speaking population lived in this cultural horizan. There are Latin toponyms concentrated in this cultural horizon that are of Dalmatian/Illyrian Latin not Vulgar Latin, and for them to exists in today's Albanian would mean they were inherited from a pre-Albanian population which spoke Illyrian/Dalmatian Latin. We are not dealing here with a Albanian speaking population, and we have to identify who they were. All this points to J2b(with some R1b fellow travelers). Kruja-Komani and linguistic evidence strongly points to Albanian speech not being native to the area, it came from the speculated Nish-Shtip homeland.

To sum up the chronology, North Albania was a refuge area for Illyrians after the Slavic invasions. Later around 900 AD, early Albanians(E-V13 and R1b) settle in the core zone of this culture suppressing and pushing the J2b clades along the banks of Drin river. Around 1300 AD the two populations begin to merge as one(unify against Serbian pressure I assume), the process was finalized by Ottoman invasion (lots of destruction and shuffling of populations). To this day J2b is strongest among frontier Ghegs, recoiled like a serpent around Drin river and it's tributaries.

The people you are trying to placate are arguing linear decent from Bronze Age. If there was no DNA science they would argue times immemorial. They do think they evolved out of the rocks of their villages and when you point out inconsistencies they get offended and defensive, as if you are stealing something from them.

Nobody really knows at this point, but fact is that there was a wide stretch of land, and modern Albanians are directly in that zone, in which Proto-Illyrian J-L283 and the earlier groups (Thracian E-V13, Phrygian/Brygian R-Z2103 as the main haplogroups?) met. This means we have this mixture of linages minimum 1.000 years before the Antiquity Proto-Albanians were around. They surely assimilated people then too, like some Vlach lineages, some Roman, Greek, Slavic etc., but the basic, main lineages of E-V13, J-L283 and R-Z2103 are very likely to have been close by and intermixed before.
If you want to have E-V13 + R-Z2103 as the primary markers, you have to assume an origin from Thracians or Bryges. Basically, that's primarily a linguistic debate, because then you would have to prove a Thracian origin for Proto-Albanian, instead of an Illyrian one, which would connect with J-L283.
Fact is also that various people existed in the region, which united these groups, like the Srem group = Illyrians with Thracian substrate, Triballi = Thracians with Illyrian influences, Dardanians = Illyrians with Thracian substrate elements.
That alone is quite telling as to how long these people intermixed in the Central Balkans.

 

[torzio]

The conventus in Scardona and the other Dalmatian conventus Scardona grew on the mouth of the Krka (Titius) River, and it was a major mercantile port which linked the coastal part of Liburnia with its hinterland. It was also a Liburnian city with a powerful indigenous element, which was situated at the boundary between the Liburnian and Delmataean parts of Dalmatia, so it is not surprising that a conventus was in fact seated here. The connection of the two fragments of this monument has revealed certain new aspects of the inscription.
Thus “some” conventus dedicated in Scardona, which is known from Pliny to have been the seat of a conventus. Because of this, the usage of the term conventus Scardonis.
The conventus name which begins with the letter L additionally reinforces the logic of the interpretation of this name connected with the Liburni or Liburnia. Our hypothesis, therefore, is that the name of the conventus was conventus Liburnorum, or the conventus of the Liburni. Before explaining this hypothesis in full, we shall go over some of the facts about the conventus system in Dalmatia.For the conventus it may be said that these were administrative districts, and their seats were visited by the peregrines to resolve legal and administrative affairs. The imperial cult was also particularly promoted in these cities, which additionally simplified the legal jurisdiction of the province.
In the administrative sense, the territory of Dalmatia was divided into three conventus in the first century, with their seats in Scardona, Salona and Narona.
There are theories that the conventus with the seat in Scardona corresponded to the territory of the Liburnian and Iapodian prefectures, i.e., the military administration of this territory during the Great Revolt in 6-9 AD.
The conventus in Dalmatia were, it would appear, established in order to enable control of the non-Roman communities and peoples living there. The sole Roman-era source that mentions the
conventus system in Dalmatia is Pliny the Elder, whose very meagre, but valuable report on these territories recounts the conventus to which the nations, peregrine communities and their cities in Dalmatia belonged.
From Pliny, we learn that the nations and peregrine communities of Liburnia were not sub-divided among themselves into decuriae, which was the case with the nations and communities in the other two conventus. It is generally believed that the division into decuriae was the poorer option for the peregrine population, since many smaller communities were quite likely merged with larger ones in this division, thus losing their ethnic and cultural identity.
The capital city of Dalmatia and the seat of the Salonitan conventus was Salona, in which the governor had his seat.

 

[torzio]

After the quelling of the revolt in Illyricum in 9 AD and the division of this province, very likely into Illyricum Superior and Inferior initially, the imperial cult was introduced at the regional level in Illyricum Superior, later Dalmatia. This level implied worship of the cult of a living emperor by the peregrine communities gathered around a single religious hub in each of the conventus in order to more rapidly implement acceptance of the newly-established Roman rule among the indigenous population.

This was still a time when the imperial cult was not yet divided into the central (Roman), provincial and municipal cults at the state level.

The best testimony to the regional imperial cult in Dalmatia was found on Liburnian soil, where the epigraphic monuments inform us that this cult was practiced on the altar of the Liburni (ara Augusti Liburnorum) that was located in Scardona.

The terms sacerdos Liburnorum, ara Augusti Liburnorum and civitates Liburniae confirm this. This is why we believe that the word conventus in this inscription was truly followed by the name of the Liburni, the dominant people between the Raša and Krka Rivers. Pliny mentioned that the Liburnian and Iapodian peregrine communities belonged to this conventus Liburnian communities constituted civitates, and they were jointly known under the name Liburni; it is asserted that the Iapodian communities, however, were not involved in the regional imperial veneration,
and there were no epigraphic confirmations of them in this context. The use of the common ethnonym in the context of the regional imperial cult has been demonstrated by the already mentioned phrases sacerdos Liburnorum and ara Augusti Liburnorum, while the understanding of the territorial unit to which the peregrine communities belonged was expressed by the term
civitates Liburniae. Since this is a representative public inscription, it was most likely installed on a building vital to the Liburnian peregrine communities that exercised their rights in the seat of this
conventus, Scardona. Pursuant to all of the aforementioned points, we have chosen to restore the crucial part of the inscription as conventus Liburnorum, while we deem the phrases
conventus Liburniae and conventus Liburnicus as less likely.

 

[torzio]

contradiction ??? ....same people ???

Pliny mentioned that the Liburnian and Iapodian peregrine communities belonged to this conventus Liburnian communities constituted civitates

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Nobody really knows at this point, but fact is that there was a wide stretch of land, and modern Albanians are directly in that zone, in which Proto-Illyrian J-L283 and the earlier groups (Thracian E-V13, Phrygian/Brygian R-Z2103 as the main haplogroups?) met. This means we have this mixture of linages minimum 1.000 years before the Antiquity Proto-Albanians were around. They surely assimilated people then too, like some Vlach lineages, some Roman, Greek, Slavic etc., but the basic, main lineages of E-V13, J-L283 and R-Z2103 are very likely to have been close by and intermixed before.
If you want to have E-V13 + R-Z2103 as the primary markers, you have to assume an origin from Thracians or Bryges. Basically, that's primarily a linguistic debate, because then you would have to prove a Thracian origin for Proto-Albanian, instead of an Illyrian one, which would connect with J-L283.
Fact is also that various people existed in the region, which united these groups, like the Srem group = Illyrians with Thracian substrate, Triballi = Thracians with Illyrian influences, Dardanians = Illyrians with Thracian substrate elements.
That alone is quite telling as to how long these people intermixed in the Central Balkans.

Linguistic evidence is pretty clear, Albanian came east of Albania, post Roman collapse. Kruja-Komani culture seem to be Latin speaking Illyrians. If you want to assume proto-Albanians already were loaded with J2b, than it means they replaced the Komani-kruja (J2b) people and brought their own J2b. I can't support that type of explanation.

Among Ghegs themselves, J2b is in high frequency in frontier areas(excluding the Tosk-Gheg frontier which is a low point for Ghegs). J2b has similar story to I2a-Din in south Albania, an assimilated frontier population.

The Albanians that migrated south, did not carry any noticeable presence of J2b. J2b is very low among Tosk, Arvanites and Arberesh, strongly suggesting it was not a early Albanian haplogroup.

 

[Hawk]

If you go to Africa and procreate with bushman, 20 generation later, your J2b decedent would cluster with the local bushman, it does not mean J2b is a ancient bushman haplogroup.
Greek E-V13, was not present in Mycenaean, so it's a late comer into the game, you don't know when it entered Greece and which direction. Making straight lines in a graph between two points, is not predicting, that's some chimpanzee level ability.

And, you should wait until we get autosomal DNA from other parts of Iron Age Balkans, that would clear up geneflow and DNA component. One thing is clear, Illyrian autosomal DNA is lacking among Albanians, only some northern Ghegs have some north-western Italian pull, J2b heritage.

In the latest Urnfield paper from March 2022: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10963-022-09164-0

Authors explicitely state that the originators of Urnfield way came from Carpathian mountains and the earliers adopters are either directly or indirectly related to E-V13 Psenicevo-Babadag (by Carpathian mountains it means the general Channeled-Ware and interrelated phenomena) leaks which is considered an Eastern Hallstatt cultural hemisphere.

And one of the earliest adopters are Zuto Brdo-Grla Mare culture from North-East Serbia/South-West Romania, these participated in the so called Aegean migration during Bronze to Iron Age transition in Greece where we see the increase of cremation burials. So, i believe most of E-V13 in Greece entered during this period.

Authors also mention and do believe the cremation burial was a burial initially originating from a Neolithic survivor population which was devastated by Yersinia Pestis plague, initially it acted as a preventive thing and then it got transformed into a ritual/religious belief on burials.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

In the latest Urnfield paper from March 2022: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10963-022-09164-0

Authors explicitely state that the originators of Urnfield way came from Carpathian mountains and the earliers adopters are either directly or indirectly related to E-V13 Psenicevo-Babadag (by Carpathian mountains it means the general Channeled-Ware and interrelated phenomena) leaks which is considered an Eastern Hallstatt cultural hemisphere.

And one of the earliest adopters are Zuto Brdo-Grla Mare culture from North-East Serbia/South-West Romania, these participated in the so called Aegean migration during Bronze to Iron Age transition in Greece where we see the increase of cremation burials. So, i believe most of E-V13 in Greece entered during this period.

Authors also mention and do believe the cremation burial was a burial initially originating from a Neolithic survivor population which was devastated by Yersinia Pestis plague, initially it acted as a preventive thing and then it got transformed into a ritual/religious belief on burials.

Very nice Hawk, it would be interesting to know which particular Greek group can be associated with this migration, ie where they initially settled in Greece. E-V13, is very prolific. It opens branch everywhere.

 

[Riverman]

Authors also mention and do believe the cremation burial was a burial initially originating from a Neolithic survivor population which was devastated by Yersinia Pestis plague, initially it acted as a preventive thing and then it got transformed into a ritual/religious belief on burials.

The paper is important, as it correctly points to the great importance of the Carpathian basin for the evolution of the Urnfield phenomenon, but it has some flaws as well.

This argument is probably no flaw, but its not safe. Because "funnily", some authors argue that some of the "ritual pits" in which body burials appear even in the cremation horizon of the Thracians, might be attributed to victims of a plague. Therefore it would be, in some cases, exactly the circumstances which are supposed to have caused the rite, which prevent them from doing it (later).
While that's possible, it could be some inconsistency of the argument as such.

I rather tend to see the cleaning fire rite related to a religious theory and belief, associated with the sun and heaven. The solar symbols are very widespread in Pre-G?va and G?va related cultures as well.

But it might be not possilbe to really know the motives. What's for sure is, in any case, they just did it.

 

[torzio]

The Roman split of Illyicum ...........pre the Great Illyrian revolt

The black area they eventually named initially part of Illyricum, then changed after the revolt

percentages of fighting men / population

4th Conventus...ie...southern Illyrian ( proper illyrians as stated by some ) = 14.6%

Narona Conventus = 26.0%

Salona Conventus = 44.8%

Scardona conventus = 14.6%


I did not include any Pannonians

 

[torzio]

Very nice Hawk, it would be interesting to know which particular Greek group can be associated with this migration, ie where they initially settled in Greece. E-V13, is very prolific. It opens branch everywhere.

History states that the Corinthian Greeks settled in north Albania and Corfu...............the Spartans in Taranto area Italy ...........and the some Boetians Thessalian Greeks settled in Montenegro

 

[enter_tain]

Later around 900 AD, early Albanians(E-V13 and R1b) settle in the core zone

You are so uneducated on this topic, it's quite frankly embarrassing. Geg/Tosk split around Shkumbin around 400-500 AD. The split predates Slavic contact.

Their characteristics^[17][18] in the treatment of both native words and loanwords provide evidence that the split into the northern and the southern dialects occurred after Christianisation of the region (4th century AD),^[19][20] and most likely not later than the 5th–6th centuries AD,^[21][22][23] hence occupying roughly their present area divided by the Shkumbin river since the Post-Roman and Pre-Slavic period, straddling the Jireček Line.^[24][25][26]

 

[enter_tain]

Albanians and Greeks pretty much share the same haplogroups and autosomal DNA. Albania has EV13 in the 20s, just like Greeks. But yeah, it's the "proto-Albanians" who brought EV-13. Completely brain dead.

 

[Excine]

Linguistic evidence is pretty clear, Albanian came east of Albania, post Roman collapse. Kruja-Komani culture seem to be Latin speaking Illyrians. If you want to assume proto-Albanians already were loaded with J2b, than it means they replaced the Komani-kruja (J2b) people and brought their own J2b. I can't support that type of explanation.

Among Ghegs themselves, J2b is in high frequency in frontier areas(excluding the Tosk-Gheg frontier which is a low point for Ghegs). J2b has similar story to I2a-Din in south Albania, an assimilated frontier population.

The Albanians that migrated south, did not carry any noticeable presence of J2b. J2b is very low among Tosk, Arvanites and Arberesh, strongly suggesting it was not a early Albanian haplogroup.

J-L283 comprises about 30% of Timacum Minus in late antiquity. Tim Minus is in the far east of Serbia. Wherever you want to assume Proto-Albanian-speakers were, in eastern Serbia or right in the middle of the Mat valley, they're going to have J-L283. It's as simple as that.

 

[Hawk]

J-L283 comprises about 30% of Timacum Minus in late antiquity. Tim Minus is in the far east of Serbia. Wherever you want to assume Proto-Albanian-speakers were, in eastern Serbia or right in the middle of the Mat valley, they're going to have J-L283. It's as simple as that.

I posted grave classifications here from Serbian archaeologists and they think that those J2b2-L283 graves are either Numeri Dalmatorum, Dardanians. I think chances that they were Dalmatian Roman warriors is pretty high.

Yet, you see no grave classifications in Viminacium of Numeri Dalmatorum and you see not a single J2b2-L283 there.

 

[mount123]

I posted grave classifications here from Serbian archaeologists and they think that those J2b2-L283 graves are either Numeri Dalmatorum, Dardanians. I think chances that they were Dalmatian Roman warriors is pretty high.

Yet, you see no grave classifications in Viminacium of Numeri Dalmatorum and you see not a single J2b2-L283 there.

He learned this whataboutistic pseudo argument from Bruzmi. There is one younger confirmed clade under Z631 in those without a doubt Numeri Dalmatorum. The pathway of J2b-L283 when it comes to the Balkans by all evidence is Western. It is absolutely obnoxious to suggest otherwise. As I have told your earlier with each Illyrian sample that will be added to the list it won't change the stubborn wishful thinking of some people; it is like talking to a wall. Add to that the fact that that they always and consciously miscount/falsify the evidence of the importance of J2b-L283 for the Illyrian ethnogenesis.

This is clearly due to personal reasons: one of them is a Kelmendas the other you were just answering is from Malesia so they have that "we are Pelasgo-Illyrians" non sense propaganda deeply engraved in their minds; it is a losing game since they will always repeat the same non sense.

Notice how the latest early Iapygian from Grotta Delle Mura, Italy_BronzeAge, J2b2a1a1a1a1a1b, which corresponds to: J2b-L283>>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878, a J2b-L823 (so shocking ), and his clade were already hinted by the Posusje samples.

These people will have a hard time with the other due to be published IA Illyrian samples from Bosnia, Croatia, Montenegro. We already have leaked evidence of MBA J2b-L283 presence in North Albania. Some might get their tissues ready...

 

[Dibran]

Greeks and Albanians overlap, this has been known for decades now. This is not news. You keep clutching to this like you discovered something or it proves your fantasies about we wuzz Alex of Macedon.
I'm talking about Komani-Kruja remains, which are off limits for genetic testing. If we test the Komani remains, and they all come out J2b with some R1b, the whole "we wuz Illyrian and kangs" house of cards of collapses.

Collapse?? You do realize Komani is argued to be a symbiosis between Illyrians, Greco-Romans, Slavs, Avars, Huns etc right?

Komani likely represents the late proto-Albanian ethnogensis which eventually solidified into the early medieval Albanians mentioned first the first time between the 9th-11th centuries.

Komani is literally a recipe in the making and would demolish our neighbors lies. This is why Serbs, their sympathizers, anti-Albanians and even Albanian ignorants are so terrified at that prospect so they cling to Daco-Thracian nonsense. Anything to pull Albanians out of their homelands. And you wonder why it's forbidden to test those remains.

Depending on the number of remains, Komani culture sites will have it all, from R1b, J2b-L283, E-V13 including R1a and I-Y3120.

Albanians definitely carry some Daco-Thracian stock, but the overwhelming number of lineages and relation to Messapic are clear indicators of a Paleo-West Balkan origin for pre-proto-Albanians.

Even if our language is not Illyrian, there is a large amount of support for Albanian representing a paleo-balkan tongue that likely developed close to their present territories.
Illyrian language family could have been extensive with Proto-Albanian representing one branch.

So, in summary, the discovery of those very lineages among others present in Albanians would fortify that house of cards, not collapse it.

 

[1337]

J-L283 comprises about 30% of Timacum Minus in late antiquity. Tim Minus is in the far east of Serbia. Wherever you want to assume Proto-Albanian-speakers were, in eastern Serbia or right in the middle of the Mat valley, they're going to have J-L283. It's as simple as that.

Yep. Pretty much this.

It's funny how they are using some southern Albanians to claim it was not a proto-Albanian marker which would suggest it was only absorbed into Albanians
after their spread into their present location in Albania, or after the whole dialect split. I wonder how such a thing would even be possible since we already also have J2b2-L283 in Albania itself, Croatia etc.

Mat valley and the Shkumbin and the surrounding areas were also inhabited by various tribes Albanoi, Taulantii, Parthini and more north ''Abri'' . And they were all Illyrian.


Just kidding about that last part. I think some Vlachs in Albania, Romania etc have J2b2-L283 too and EV-13.

 

[1337]

Greeks and Albanians overlap, this has been known for decades now. This is not news. You keep clutching to this like you discovered something or it proves your fantasies about we wuzz Alex of Macedon.




I'm talking about Komani-Kruja remains, which are off limits for genetic testing. If we test the Komani remains, and they all come out J2b with some R1b, the whole "we wuz Illyrian and kangs" house of cards of collapses.

How does it collapse exactly ? EV-13 is a haplo found across the Balkans and Europe and there were various people that settled Albania etc. It's more likely that some EV-13 branches is the result of foreigners being absorbed than J2b2 or R1b. Certainly would not collapse, you're just assuming proto-Albanians were mainly EV-13 without any factual evidence.

 

[Dibran]

The only thing that's gonna collapse is your "we wuz EV-13 Dardanians" pile of horse manure.

If Greeks and Albanians overlap (and more than that. pretty much identical), and Greeks are heavy in EV-13, there is no reason Albanians wouldn't have it.

You suck at understanding proto-populations =/= modern populations. Otherwise, all Europeans would be RZ2103 like the Yamnaya.

To be fair, there is a greater diversity of E-V13 in Albanians than Greeks, and it's likely not to have entered Greece until the Iron Age with populations of the North. Presumably related to some Proto-Albanians.

At least this goes for most Greek E-V13. Perhaps Epirotes carried a sizeable amount in their domain, splitting North and South from its nucleus.

Most diversity of E-V13 center around west Balkans and not East. Of course those are dependent on collected samples more than anything else. However, u don't expect it to change.

 

[1337]

Komani-Kruja representing a Latinized population certainly does not disprove the connection since Albanian shows Latin influence and more contact with Latin speakers during the Roman period rather than Greek. The Mat valley was the least exposed to Latin, and basically surrounded by this culture.

The Komani-Kruja culture is an archaeological culture attested from late antiquity to the Middle Ages in central and northern Albania, southern Montenegro and similar sites in the western parts of North Macedonia

Those areas could of been an Albanian homeland or where proto-Albanian was spoken or at least what survived of Albanian that did not entirely Latinize or Hellenize. Illyrians historically also lived in Southern Albania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimale