Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

epirus1000 said:
I have to get back to everything I read lately, in order to find the references. There were quite long stories told by elders of Theth in 1940-1950, mentioning Alexander the Great as LECI.
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I think you've mistaken this for the account by Rose W. Lane. Ive tried for a long time to find these stories recorded in Albanian somewhere with no luck.
 
broder said:
Problem is that already by late antiquity we see in sites like Timacum Minus that the V13+L283+CTS1450 soup was already in existence as east as Nish. That’s actually super close to when Z2705 started expanding, just a hundred years earlier perhaps. FTDNA is estimating now the age of the expansion of PH970 (aka Z2705) as 1850ybp. Seems like they are honing in on that underestimation of yfull, which is around 20% I think.

Anyway, for V13 alone to have caused such a phenomenon, assimilating the remaining Illyrian communities in Albania and introducing the language, we would expect to see some major V13 subclade that was in the nucleus of our ethnos mirroring at least to some extent Z2705 - which can be found in any Albanian region and among all Albanian groups.

What come close are BY4461, Y173822 and Y146086 . Non are as uniform though. Other V13 are supper patchy and regional. Same thing for L283 subclades.
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The situation is not so straightforward unfortunately.

This is what i could find, grave classification for 2 J2b2-L283 and 1 E-V13 whom Serb archaeologists think come from same ethnic group likely: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...m-VIDEO/page27?p=638310&viewfull=1#post638310

For the rest, either they are not sure or have no information. We have couple of options here:

1. Timacenses auxiliarii. <= natives or from somewhere else?
2. Aurelia Dardanorum
3. Numeri Dalmatorum

Or a mix of all of them!? Who knows. Timacum Minus is a region far apart from where Dardanians or any Illyrian scretched, that's Moesi/Triballi territory. I tend to believe more the Dardanian or Dalmatian, or a mix of both Dardanian/Dalmatian.
Cognomen Timachus, in our opinion, does notnecessarily indicate the dedicant’s origin or his Timaciethnicity. This name may be related to his service inthe Timok Valley. For example, the name Timacensesauxiliarii denoted light cavalry units which controlledimportant communications behind a number of fortifications in the Timok region, and not necessarily unitscomprised of the Timaci people.13 This is confirmed bythe first two distinctive Latin names in the onomasticformula of the dedicant, praenomen – Lucius and nomen– Petronius, which point to a person whose family wasRomanised in the early imperial period. It should benoted that the votive altars to Jupiter Paternus, as a rule,are a testament devoted by strangers abroad to somepaternal deity from their homeland.14Another votive altar to Jupiter Paternus comesfrom Timacum Minus.

A small, limestone pillar with aSTARINAR LXIII/20135611 Ptol. III, 9, 4; Tab. Peut.VIII, 7.12 Jovanovi} S. 1989, 74–78; Petrovi}, Filipovi} 2008, 48–57.13 Petrovi} 1997, 123; Petkovi} 1998, 226–228.14 Mirkovi} 1966, 391–393, sl. 10; Mirkovi}, Du{ani} 1976,49, nos. 9–13, 21, 80; Petrovi} 1979, 35, 76–78, nos. 19–22. – InMoesia Superior, except in Timacum Minus, votive altars dedicatedto Jupiter Paternus are confirmed in Singidunum, Rgotina (Argentares?), Naissus and in the vicinity of Prizren (Theranda?).Fig. 3a. Flavius Bitus’s votive altarFig. 3b. Monogram DD on the Flavius Bitus’s tombstone,detailSl. 3a. Votivni spomenik Flavija BitusaSl. 3b. Monogram DD na spomeniku Flavija Bitusa,detaqabcPETKOVI], ILIJI], Votive altar of Lucius Petronius Timachus (53–72) STARINAR LXIII/201357votive inscription was discovered in a building with ahypocaust, in a Roman settlement west of the fortification in Ravna. The dedicant is Flavius Bitus DD, aThracian immigrant (Fig 3a).15 There is no reliableexplanation in scientific literature for Flavius Bitus’military rank, marked by the abbreviation DD (Fig. 3b).The same markings on the tombstone of Valeria Furniafrom Timacum Minus, raised by her children (Rusticianus, Valerianus, Lucilla, Faestus) and her husbandAelius Rusticus, DD cohortis II Aureliae Dardanorum,with the depiction of dona militaria (torques, armilae,phalerae) above the inscription area, are interpreted byP. Petrovi} as the abbreviation d(onis) d(onatus).16

However, the same author later gives another interpretationof the DD inscription, associated with the participationof cohort II Aureliae Dardanorum in the exploitationof mines in the Upper Timok region – d(rome)d(arius),as member of the camel unit, dromedarii.17 Eventhough the depiction of dona militaria on the tombstone of Aelius Rusticus gave Petrovi} a strong argumentfor deciphering DD as d(onis) d(onatus), he once againoffered alternative interpretations, such as d(ecurio)d(uplarius) or d(ecurio torquatus et) d(uplarius).18 Whatled him to this conclusion was, most likely, the factthat the two letters D were connected by a horizontalline in a specific manner, identical to the tombstone ofFlavius Bitus (Fig. 3b).The marks of the military rank which consist of twoletters D, connected with a horizontal line that endswith oblique serifs on these tombstones, could represent a monogram made up of two D’s, an E, and a T(Fig. 3b–c). In the case of the two epigraphic inscriptions from Ravna, the monogram can be interpreted asd(ecurio) et d(uplarius), even more so because AeliusRusticus’ military decorations (dona militaria) are displayed on his tombstone. The unit in which he served isunmarked on Flavius Bitus’ votive altar, whereas AeliusRusticus was a veteran of cohort II Aureliae Dardanorum. Judging by their gentile names, unlike the majorityof the people in Moesia Superior, the family of FlaviusBitus acquired Roman citizenship during the Flaviandynasty, and the family of Aelius Rusticus did so duringHadrian’s rule, indicating their foreign origins.19 Inthis case, both decorated officers settled in TimacumMinus upon the completion of their military service.20In this context, we will focus on the position andrank of the dedicant Lucius Petronius Timachus: veteranus legionis VII Claudia Severiana Alexandriana exoptione. From his rank’s formula it is evident that hewas a veteran of legion VII Claudia, where he served

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d855/534b208983db0a58d6a6ad71f6abd7141878.pdf
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Hawk said:
The situation is not so straightforward unfortunately.

This is what i could find, grave classification for 2 J2b2-L283 and 1 E-V13 whom Serb archaeologists think come from same ethnic group likely: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...m-VIDEO/page27?p=638310&viewfull=1#post638310

For the rest, either they are not sure or have no information. We have couple of options here:

1. Timacenses auxiliarii. <= natives or from somewhere else?
2. Aurelia Dardanorum
3. Numeri Dalmatorum

Or a mix of all of them!? Who knows. Timacum Minus is a region far apart from where Dardanians or any Illyrian scretched, that's Moesi/Triballi territory. I tend to believe more the Dardanian or Dalmatian, or a mix of both Dardanian/Dalmatian.
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I15548 was Z1043+ like the sample from Doclea so probably they were not Dalmatian. Most likely Illyrians from North Albania/Monte or Dardanians - considering the CTS1450 sample too (who was interestingly more western autosomally).

Dardanians wil probably end up being similar to Paeonians but with more V13 and additional L283. Maybe some of our V13 subclades I mentioned in my previous post were present among them.
 
broder said:
I15548 was Z1043+ like the sample from Doclea so probably they were not Dalmatian. Most likely Illyrians from North Albania/Monte or Dardanians - considering the CTS1450 sample too (who was interestingly more western autosomally).

Dardanians wil probably end up being similar to Paeonians but with more V13 and additional L283. Maybe some of our V13 subclades I mentioned in my previous post were present among them.
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Derite posted somewhere the archaeological picture of Dardania which is multi-faceted, we have Brnjica first, Channeled-Ware (channeling was a widespread phenomena in Balkan-Carpathian cultures like Vatin, Belegis-Gava II and to a smaller degree Brnjica too), Glasinac-Mat and low-mound North-Thracian(Bassarabi likely, most likely they are the Triballi pushing South IMO). Whether this cultures represent more mixed, more uniform uniparentals that's something which eventually we will find. The bad thing is that Brnjica and Channeled-Ware cremated their deaths, i guess a good approach would be Iron Age samples and Late Antuiqity/Early Christian period. A combination of both to reduce the cremation bias if there is any.
 
I actually completely forgot that we have Thracian inscriptions. They literally show no connection to Albanian. Even court jesters like Matzinger & co. state Thracian is unrelated to Albanian.

These morons arguing about a Thracian origin when there's 0 linguistic connection or autosomal connection are getting quite sad. Even their naming conventions are different, ending cities in -para (Dacians in -dava), while Albanians ended tribes names in -et, -at like Illyrians.

Meanwhile, the Messapic inscriptions do show a clear link to Albanian, and Messapics are Illyrian-descended.
 
enter_tain said:
I actually completely forgot that we have Thracian inscriptions. They literally show no connection to Albanian. Even court jesters like Matzinger & co. state Thracian is unrelated to Albanian.

These morons arguing about a Thracian origin when there's 0 linguistic connection or autosomal connection are getting quite sad. Even their naming conventions are different, ending cities in -para (Dacians in -dava), while Albanians ended tribes names in -et, -at like Illyrians.

Meanwhile, the Messapic inscriptions do show a clear link to Albanian, and Messapics are Illyrian-descended.
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Also inscription found on illyrian coins and tiles:
LABIATAN ------ Shkodran (from Shkodra) ---- Matian (from Mat)
LISSITAN ------ Lezhian (from Lezha) --------- Kuksian
DIMALITAN----- Krutan (from Kruja)----------- etc.l
edit: it's interesting that Kruja(Krua/kroi) didn't became Krujan but got(retained?) the suffix tan like DIMALI-TAN and LISSI-TAN
 
ihype02 said:
Mirditors score 50% Illyrian, Himariotes around 20%.


Target: Mirditë
Distance: 1.7873% / 0.01787285
48.2ALB_Cinamak_Anc
41.0BGR_IA
10.8Polish

Target: Himarë
Distance: 2.2925% / 0.02292459
59.8BGR_IA
20.2ALB_Cinamak_Anc
20.0Polish

Target: Mirditë
Distance: 1.7873% / 0.01787285
48.2ALB_Cinamak_Anc
41.0BGR_IA
10.8Polish



Target: Himarë
Distance: 2.2925% / 0.02292459
59.8BGR_IA
20.2ALB_Cinamak_Anc
20.0Polish
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Is it possible to make a weighted average of the BGR_IA with a Paeonian east of Shkup and use that as a west Daco-Thracian/ east Dardanian proxy?
 
Excine said:
Also, why are you using BGR_IA and not BGR_Kapitan_Andreevo which is the actual average for southeast Thrace? BGR_IA doesn't even have ancestry identical to the E-V13 from Thrace.
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Why do you use Alb Cinamak and not Illyrian Zagreb?

And is your Alb Cinamak averaged or is it the singular R1b fellow from 270BC that's likely a Dardanian?
 
After the Thraco-Daco-Fantasy theory failed, Riverman and his clique on Anthrogenica are trying to hyper-slavicize modern Albanians. These people just won't stop.
 
I14688 (600-400 BCE), a male sample from IA Çinamak was uploaded on FTDNA. The initial classification in the "Southern Arc" papers is that he's under R-L51.

On FTDNA, this sample was re-classified and uploaded under R-PF7563.

ftdna-RPF7563.png



R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.
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Nice catch! I personally never looked into this sample, as I thought he is some low coverage R-L51 as reported by the Southern Arc paper. I just looked at his BAM file and I would have to agree with FTDNA that I14688 is in fact R1b-PF7562>PF7563!

At R-PF7562 level, he has GG490/BY856/Y19696+ (3T), then at R-PF7563 level he is showing PF7563+ (1A), with no contradicting or negative reads.

It seems Lazaridis et al. classified him as R-L51 based on SNPs L51 which has two derived and one ancestral/negative read, and E207/Y410/MF659561 which has one derived and one ancestral read. So, unlike the R-PF7562>PF7563 calls, the R-L51 calls are clearly ambiguous.

I think this is a nice development with regards to Albanian Y-DNA. Just in LBA-IA Çinamak site in NE Albania, we have J2b-L283, R1b-CTS9219 aka R1b-CTS1450, and now R1b-PF7563, which together compose ~35-40% of modern Albanian Y-DNA.
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As an update, Bruzmi found out something very interesting regarding one of the IA Cinamak samples.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26049-Genetic-Origin-of-Albanians&p=876207#post876207


For all you doubters, Trojet checked the sample and confirmed FTDNA's analysis.
 
PalleKari & co. were trying to convince us that R1b was non-existent in Albania and it was "imported" by the "Proto-Albanians", when it was 60% of the Illyrian Albanian samples.

In that paper, J2B2 was literally only 40% in Iron Age Illyrian Albania. Same frequency as Malesia today. Go figure, that R1b the main lineage of the Indo-Europeans, appeared in *drum roll* an Indo-European people.
 
Have never seen such a claim on this or other fora. The archeological landscape of Albania is diverse, similar to Kosovo and co. There were rumors circulating about certain samples from Albania. Also, "R1b" formed ~23000 years ago and has a TMRCA of 20400 years. It is a macro haplogroup designation and lumping various haplogroups under it as "essentially the same" leads to funny origin "theories" based on R1b-V88 +/- 10000 year old mesolithic samples in Southern Europe and co (actually seen something along those lines posted by some users).

But then again I saw you claim R1b-L51* (mcr. h. designation) massively spread with Yamnaya (who are clearly mainly R1b-Z2103) and that sort of thing even though by aDNA records it is perfectly clear it spread with Western Corded Ware groups and not Yamnaya.
 
In regards to Southern Arc aDNA records of Albania:


ID I8471 1880-1695 calBCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597 (Z609+, Z628+, FT92472-, Z40053-, CTS12554-) Shkrel (Shkodër), Albania (Cetina/Dinaric)
ID I17633 700-400 BCE J2b-L283>? (Z589+, Z622+, Y3781:cool: Çinamak (Kukës), Albania
ID I16253 658-403 calBCE J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878>CTS11100>Y37121 (Z1298+, Y37818+, Y106264+, FT29003-, FT34408-, Y110968-, F3754-) Çinamak (Kukës), Albania
ID I16254 600-400 BCE J2b-L283>? (coverage too low: Z2512/CTS5382+, S23613/Z2521+, FT92472-, CTS12554-) Çinamak (Kukës), Albania


ID I14690 1700-400 BCE R1b-Z2103>CTS1450 Çinamak (Kukës), Albania
ID I16251 500-50 BCE R1b-Z2103? Çinamak (Kukës), Albania


ID I14689 2663-2472 calBCE R1b-PF7562? (low coverage: L23-) Çinamak (Kukës), Albania (Balkan Yamnayan)
ID I14688 600-400 BCE R1b-PF7562 Çinamak (Kukës), Albania
 
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I14689 fella is L23- so most likely another PF7562.
 
FZ426B5aAAQ-rTk.jpgFZ4-QkXWIAQcrlr.jpgFZ4_jEsXoAMO5Ia.jpgFZ4_iI_WAAESmui.jpg
Johane Derite said:
Could you guide me to where Rrok Zojzi collected mentions of Alexander the Great in our folklore?
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Rose W. Lane, a founder of the US Libertarian movement, documented some fantastic myths in Albania.She recorded claims that the ancient Macedonians had two capitals, one in Pella as well as another in the Mat valley in Albania, where they claimed Alexander the Great was born. (from AlbHistory in twitter). I have read similar stories from Rrok Zojzi. Hopefully I can find them.
 
Pretty crazy, now finding PF7563 in Iron Age south-east Illyrians and among Mycenaeans.

I wonder if I10377 from Bucinci-Skopje reported as M269, who most likely was a Dardanian, is under PF7563 as well. Low coverage sample however. Has no coverage on most major nodes. Either way, he is probably PF7563 or CTS7556.
 
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