Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Riverman]

Iron Age Thracians are more Eastern and Southern compared to Bronze Age samples from Bulgaria. Sure that E-V13 was common among Thracians so far but that Thracians are the main source of it I highly doubt but of course I am willing to change my opinion. To me it simply seems E-V13 is a general Y-DNA that hit the boom, it happened earlier among Thracians and then later among the rest of Europe and Balkans.

J2b2 hit a bottle neck effect already during Cetina this does not mean that J2b2 did not exist outside Illyrian sphere , the correlation with J2b2 and Illyrian however I believe is stronger than E-V13 and Thracian. Let's not forget none of these Y-DNA ever came from the steppes most likely so Steppe people were R1b

E-V13 had its largest expansions when the Thracians (Channelled Ware-Stamped Ware and Thracian Hallstatt) expanded, not earlier, not later. That's clear from the data and indisputable. There was no later expansion which was even remotely as big.

The difference is also that J-L283 seems to have spread earlier to other people (!), while E-V13 seems to have not (as much, if at all).

So Illyrians were for the most part J-L283, but not all J-L283 Illyrian, even in the early stage. For E-V13 it seems that the total majority if not all E-V13 carriers were initially Thracian - regardless of E-V13 being the only lineage or not.

 

[Arbanoi]

I believe Early Bronze Age samples from Bulgaria can also be taken to be Thracians or proto-Thracians since we already got R1b-Z2103 among samples from there around 2700 BC, a steppe marker, samples from this time frame and onwards until the Iron Age belong to a bunch of Y-DNA that are not even E-V13 but are many R1b, many of them cluster north like Albanians, Illyrians etc. Iron Age Bulgarian sites cluster south like I said and E-V13 is dominant here but we see Y-DNA like R1a-z93 which is the second time I see it among Thracians and we see Q-BZ1499 in another Bronze Age site. It doesn't seem we see E-V13 pop up among Thracians until the Iron Age ?

How can one argue that E-V13 was massively brought by Thracians ? Seems to of rather been picked up in the Balkans or some bottle neck effect. Proto-Thracians/Dacians were actually R1b like proto-Illyrians and Proto-Greeks. J2b2-L283 by Illyrians was probably picked up in the Balkans too. Just like J2a was picked up by the Greeks. E-V13 seems to of experienced another bottle neck effect in the Balkans.

Also if we look at samples from Romania, samples from the Bronze Age 2000 BC that clearly show steppe admixture, not a single E-V13. We know Dacians most definitely were in Romania by this time. All the samples cluster like Spanish during this period.

 

[Arbanoi]

J2b2-L283 appears among Illyrians already in Bronze Age and we see continuity even during Iron Age, this is not the case for Thracians/Dacians and E-V13 where it is entirely absent among Bronze Age samples.

Bronze Age sample from Romania , these are clearly Dacians

Target: ROU_BA:I11914 Distance: 1.7124% / 0.01712413
68.0	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
26.0	TUR_Barcin_N
3.8	Han
1.4	WHG
0.6	Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.2	BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP

Target: ROU_Arman_BA:I10562 Distance: 3.3474% / 0.03347384
58.0	TUR_Barcin_N
23.2	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
18.4	WHG
0.4	Han

Target: ROU_Arman_BA:I10558 Distance: 2.5066% / 0.02506614
55.6	TUR_Barcin_N
24.4	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
18.8	WHG
1.2	MAR_Taforalt

Target: ROU_BA:I11914 Distance: 1.7124% / 0.0171241
68.0	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
26.0	TUR_Barcin_N
3.8	Han
1.4	WHG
0.6	Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.2	BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP

Target: ROU_BA:I11914 Distance: 1.7124% / 0.01712413
68.0	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
26.0	TUR_Barcin_N
3.8	Han
1.4	WHG
0.6	Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.2	BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP

Of course their profile might of changed during the Iron Age like it did in Bulgaria. In Western Balkans we see a continuity of many profiles from Bronze Age to Iron Age. Though some profiles in Croatia appear to be much southern by the Roman period.

 

[Riverman]

There is no proven Pre-Thracian culture in the Early Bronze, there is no general continuity.
The only early group which is a candidate is Cotofeni. And we have no proper sampling from Cotofeni, or later Mako, Livezile, Somes and Ny?rs?g.
You can't just take any samples and claim them to be Thracian.
All the proven Thracian people later will have E-V13 (at least in the mix), you'll see.
The Monteoru and other Southern Romanian groups being later replaced by actual Thracians which cremated and used Channelled Ware, and had completely unrelated yDNA.

 

[Arbanoi]

I just noticed among those Thracian E-V13 from the Iron Age site Andreevo there is not a single R1b found, only R-Z93 and one Q. And before the Iron Age not a single E-V13. In fact, there is not a single R1b+E-V13 site that has been found in the Balkans so far. (I haven't looked at other older studies)


So I wonder where do these proto-Albanians = E-V13 + R1b theories come from ? Seems to be mostly from pseudo intellectuals from TA.

 

[ihype02]

I just noticed among those Thracian E-V13 from the Iron Age site Andreevo there is not a single R1b found, only R-Z93 and one Q. And before the Iron Age not a single E-V13. In fact, there is not a single R1b+E-V13 site that has been found in the Balkans so far. (I haven't looked at other older studies)


So I wonder where do these proto-Albanians = E-V13 + R1b theories come from ? Seems to be mostly from pseudo intellectuals from TA.

Another one, enter_tain?

 

[Arbanoi]

E-V13 sample from Bulgaria 400 AD , closest modern populations:

Distance to:	BGR_RomByz:I18792
0.06171668	French_Corsica:Corsica03708
0.06346178	Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
0.06387743	Italian_BasilicataG19
0.06396440	Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
0.06399733	Italian_BasilicataG17
0.06434450	French_Corsica:corsica29008
0.06438643	French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208
0.06496235	Italian_Lazio:NOR24
0.06522163	Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany27
0.06547934	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7
0.06552927	Italian_Apulia:cera9
0.06618620	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp616
0.06621579	Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
0.06654698	Italian_Apuliau45
0.06698301	Italian_Campania:NaN207MM
0.06700738	Italian_LazioG28
0.06703950	Italian_UmbriaG15
0.06712398	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22
0.06735527	French_Corsica:corsica1308
0.06739127	Italian_Marche:MarABY030D
0.06747220	Italian_BasilicataG20
0.06751527	Italian_Apulia:cera8
0.06766655	Italian_Apuliau7
0.06767483	Italian_UmbriaG05
0.06772949	Italian_UmbriaG03

Target: BGR_RomByz:I18792 Distance: 4.8390% / 0.04838987
45.4	Sardinian
16.2	Greek_Crete
14.0	Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
8.0	Rumelia_East
7.2	Spanish_Penedes
5.6	Greek_Dodecanese
3.6	Georgian_Megr

An extremely Southern sample that clusters more South and more West than modern Albanians or even medieval samples from Albania.

Target: BGR_RomByz:I18792 Distance: 4.8694% / 0.04869370
73.8	TUR_Barcin_N
19.0	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.0	Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
1.2	MAR_Taforalt

Typical Iron Age Thracian profile.


Meanwhile even medieval and post medieval samples from Albania do not have E-V13. Mostly just I,J and R1b

 

[Arbanoi]

It is pretty obvious Albanians were not genetically influenced by this kind of population.

 

[Arbanoi]

How can these people claim Proto-Albanians were E-V13 when even medieval and post medieval samples from Albania are not E-V13 but mostly J2b and R1b .

yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

J-Z631 found in Post Medieval Albania . Some modern Albanians fall under this although the most common branch among Albanians is Z638 found already in the Bronze / Iron Age.

 

[Arbanoi]

Basically E-V13 found in Nish is closer to Albanians than E-V13 found in Bulgaria. There are also E-V13 found in Roman Croatia and one Iron Age I believe.

 

[enter_tain]

Most haplogroups had a primary vector with which they spread, an ethnolinguistic group with which they could expand. For E-V13, its at least 90 % plus Thracians, Daco-Thracians initially in the LBA-EIA..

You're making statements that are nearly unfalsifiable. That's not science.

I can claim there was an alien invasion that cause the PIE migrations. Good luck proving it wrong.

 

[Hawk]

I doubt Gava was the primary point, rather i think E-V13 was present in Gava due to some Southern Pannonian colonization up north during EBA-MBA. I am currently betting on Vatin Culture as important vector. It could be that during LBA the black-burnished ware came to aid their distant cousins Vatin people against Tumulus/Encrusted Pottery people who were creating quite a lot of troubles to them.

So, the vector i am thinking is Vatin <> Vatya <> Hatvan, perhaps it can include Tei and Verbicoara, it's hard to pinpoint exactly which culture. Might be wrong, if wrong i will take that i am wrong. But chances are high i am correct.

 

[Riverman]

I doubt Gava was the primary point, rather i think E-V13 was present in Gava due to some Southern Pannonian colonization up north during EBA-MBA. I am currently betting on Vatin Culture as important vector. It could be that during LBA the black-burnished ware came to aid their distant cousins Vatin people against Tumulus/Encrusted Pottery people who were creating quite a lot of troubles to them.

So, the vector i am thinking is Vatin <> Vatya <> Hatvan, perhaps it can include Tei and Verbicoara, it's hard to pinpoint exactly which culture. Might be wrong, if wrong i will take that i am wrong. But chances are high i am correct.

We need an expansive, successful cultural formation in the LBA-EIA and in the whole region this was just G?va/Channelled Ware. The groups you mentioned might have had E-V13 as well or not, they might have contributed to Suciu de Sus and Pre-G?va or not, but they were by and large dead ends, just like EBA-MBA Bulgaria in the MBA-LBA/LBA-EIA.
They being nearly completely replaced and that's visible for all those Balkan groups we got yDNA from. They played no big part later and being largely replaced by lineages from Thracians, Illyrians, steppe, Celts, Greeks and Anatolians-Levantines.

Its in the record, I wrote about it in the other thread, you see them being either destroyed or assimilated when G?va-related groups came and in no position to have had such massive founder effects like E-V13 had, right in the Transitional Period, when Eastern Urnfielders/Channelled Ware spread.

You're making statements that are nearly unfalsifiable. That's not science.

I can claim there was an alien invasion that cause the PIE migrations. Good luck proving it wrong.

That's easy, because nothing in the material culture and genes of the PIE is alien, all human and with predecessors which can be identified.

Same here. Thracians didn't emerge out of thin air, the ceramic, the burial rite, the patrilineages, they were all the result of a process which can be reconstructed. And when we do so, we end up in the Carpathian basin.

 

[Arbanoi]

Another one, enter_tain?

Yes, anyone who doesn't agree with your delusional theories that proto-Albanian = E-V13 is a sock , amazing logic. Literally nothing that suggests that E-V13 so far was a proto-Albanian marker, this is like saying proto-Greeks were E-V13 despite not a single Ancient Greek so far is E-V13. You can even go ask the Albanians on anthrogenica. Even many of them agree. Most people here are getting tired of your delusional theories. Argue with some facts. Don't pull fringe theories out of your ass like people on TA.

It's good thing you were banned. No need for incompetent people like you here.

 

[Arbanoi]

Most of these Albanians on this forum are incredible shit posters , the OP himself has spammed Anthrogenica with dozzen accounts about theories of Matzinger, speculations that have no evidence.

So far we have no E-V13 found in Medieval or Post Medieval Albania.

 

[Riverman]

Most of these Albanians on this forum are incredible shit posters , the OP himself has spammed Anthrogenica with dozzen accounts about theories of Matzinger, speculations that have no evidence.

So far we have no E-V13 found in Medieval or Post Medieval Albania.

With a handful of samples, it means nothing. Of course it was there...
Bronze and Early Iron Age, that's a different topic, but Medieval? Seriously.

 

[Arbanoi]

We already got Iron Age E-V13 found in Croatia

I5724

-282

HRV_IA

Sv. Križ Brdovečki

Croatia

45,900833

15,700288

58,71%

E-Y16721

U5b1d1a

And we should be able to find more in Albania too. Two E-V13 found in Sicily clearly have IA Illyrian profile.

 

[Jovialis]

Most of these Albanians on this forum are incredible shit posters , the OP himself has spammed Anthrogenica with dozzen accounts about theories of Matzinger, speculations that have no evidence.

So far we have no E-V13 found in Medieval or Post Medieval Albania.

WTF is your problem? Stop singling out Albanians. I was told you are possibly a sock of enter_tain.

If someone comes forward with more evidence, I will ban both accounts.

 

[Jovialis]

Also, we are not going to stand for Albanians vs Greek conflict here. I don't care who you are, you don't harass another person for their ethnicity on this board. I don't care if the aggressor is Greek or Albanian.

 

[Arbanoi]

WTF is your problem? Stop singling out Albanians. I was told you are possibly a sock of enter_tain.

If someone comes forward with more evidence, I will ban both accounts.

I am Albanian first and foremost. And that's exactly my problem. They are accusing me of being sock of enter_tain because I don't agree that proto-Albanians = E-V13 . Does it really look like I am a sock of this person dude ?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-Imperial-Admixture/page2?p=660082#post660082 ,

This same dude that is accusing people of being socks (Hawk and some others) is a person that has pushed E-V13 is some kind of proto-Albanian marker , anyone who doesn't agree with him or them is a sock of someone or they are not E-V13 but apparently some other Y-DNA. Bruzmi, the guy who is E-V13, they claim is apparently J2b2-L283. This Hawk guy is literally nuts. Some E-V13 supremacist dude like the OP that argues for theories that have no compelling evidence.

And what exactly is your problem that you can't see my point of view here ? Nowhere did I single out Albanians , mainly talking about some Albanians on this forum.

You can ban whatever you want, I don't care much about your forum dude, I go to Anthrogenica or other forums. Your forum doesn't allow much free speech, filled with admins who ban anyone that opposes their view.