Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[enter_tain]

It's likely that Pre/Proto-Albanoid came during Bronze to Iron Age transition in Central Balkans, probability is good, it's there.

Your fragile brain still fails to grasp that Albanian and Messapic being related, makes this impossible. Messapic has roots as long as >3000 years back to the Balkans, and we see archeological + genetic evidence linking them to the West Balkans.

There are 0 linguists today who dispute a link between Albanian and Messapic. This is why Albanian is "Adriatic Indo-European".

 

[Johane Derite]

The tree with "Adriatic Indo-European" comes from Eric Hamp's notebook in 2012. Its not a published paper of his.

Interesting how only the "adriatic indo-european" has been cropped out so as not reveal the larger context of Hamp's proposed phylogeny, in which illyrian and Albanian are common dialects with Balto-Slavic in a proposed Balto-Slavic-Adriatic branch.

This is not an accepted phylogeny by anybody serious.

 

[Excine]

@Johane Derite

Hamp's reference to a "Balto-Slavic-Adriatic" refers to a Pre-Balkan date in the IE era before the final split of the inner IE branches. It doesn't even refer to MBA era branches. So whether you agree or disagree with such a notion is irrelevant for the existence of an Adriatic Indo-European which for Hamp included Albanian and Messapo-Illyrian. The important thing is that the same notion is being accepted today by all newer studies. Hyllested and Joseph classify (to be published October 2022) Albanian and Messapic under an "Illyric" branch. The difference is that they then connect this branch with Armenian and Greco-Phrygian. The point remains regardless of pre-Balkan groupings: Albanian, Messapic, Illyrian of the proprie dicti are related and are grouped together.


The connection between Albanian and Messapic cannot be reconciled 1)with any idea of Proto-Albanians in Thrace or Dacia 2)with any idea which excludes Proto-Albanians from the Illyrian peoples from northern Croatia to the central Balkans.

 

[Androgenica]

Anecdotal contribution:

My father originally from Kosovo was shocked during his travels in Albania in the early 90’s when people had difficulty understanding him. It’s not only the accent, but the vocabulary and how the language flows.

Instead of “Miremengjes” (Good morning) we say “Auchovah”. Even when spoken with grammar (standard Albanian), we always say “Miremengjesi“ (with an extra i).
A common insult is “Magar”, but Kosovar Gheg Albanians say “Magari”
The name “Dardan”? People like to say “Dardani”.

For domate (tomato), we say “potleejohn” (Not sure how it’s spelled, but that’s how you pronounce it).

Gheg Albanians, like Italians, add extra vowels at the end of words for better “flow” whereas I don’t see Tosks do so. it’s also spoken more aggressively with less nasal pitch than Tosks and many words are completely different, none of them connected to Turks/Slavs/Greeks, but different dialect of Albanian.

Just found that interesting.

I don’t know if these differences are within natural linguistic variation or an ancient influence...

But it may be helpful in better understanding the language.

 

[Illyria]

Albanian is not a pure Illyrian language

Albanian is not a pure Thracian language

Bryges were in Albania circa 1200BC, some Dardani crossed from Balkans to Anatolia around this time too, WITH some of the Bryges. Some stayed behind in the Balkans. Bryges, Dardani, Paeoni, seem to all be heavily interlinked in history & their geography, in both the Balkans and Anatolia. Lots of overlap with these ancient tribes. It's likely these people were rich in E-V13. I think around this time, Illyrians had started settling Albania, and other nearby areas, or possibly earlier (rumored MBA J2b2 Albania sample)

No doubt J2b2 and E-V13 lived among each other and mixed since the LBA. By The Iron Age, Illyrians gave even more influence, to the Dardani, Paeoni, etc. The Illyrians allied with these people numerous times in history too, their stretch of influence was up to the Morava Vardar, where they met Thracians that lived among these rivers

It's also interesting that after Bryges disappear from Albania, the Albanoi are mentioned in their place several hundreds of years later. This makes me wonder, if Albanoi / Arber was formed from Bryges + Illyrians (Arbi?)

Either way, I think there's no doubt that Albanian is Thraco-Illyrian, with more Illyrian influence than Thracian. I don't think it's possible to tie it down to only one of these languages, given the lack of written material from ancient Illyrians and Thracians. We know Albanian is linked to Messapic, who came from Illyria, who were J2b2. To ignore this, is a wishful, pure Thracoid fantasy.. In that same token, to ignore that E-V13 is the most common haplogroup among Albanians today, is a wishful, pure Illyrian fantasy too. Clearly we have links to both, I think this shouldn't be ignored. Everyone wants to be "pure" and assign themselves to one tribe or race, this type of thinking is a lot like the outdated "Aryan-Nordic-Nazi" theories that was popular in Germany / Northern Europe like 100 years ago. All we talk about here is, "J2b2 isn't Albanian" "E-V13 isn't Albanian" "Illyrians were weak, look how low J2b2 is." "Thracians were weak, look how assimilated E-V13 is"

Ridiculous. We are not pure Illyrians and we are not pure Thracians... All the fantasy fiction writers on here need to realize this

 

[mount123]

This is not an accepted phylogeny by anybody serious.

For obvious reasons lol. I actually did look this up yesterday and had a good laugh. Pretty much shows how some users put things out of context in order to support an obsolete and rightfully false theory.

 

[mount123]

Instead of derailing this and other threads on this forum and therefore embarrassing yourselves, what about opening a thread where you can "discuss" all things you seem obsessed about?

 

[Johane Derite]

The tree with "Adriatic Indo-European" comes from Eric Hamp's notebook in 2012. Its not a published paper of his.
Interesting how only the "adriatic indo-european" has been cropped out so as not reveal the larger context of Hamp's proposed phylogeny, in which illyrian and Albanian are common dialects with Balto-Slavic in a proposed Balto-Slavic-Adriatic branch.
This is not an accepted phylogeny by anybody serious.

Matzinger's argument is relevant here

He argues thar Messapic is part of the Balkanic IE group with Greek, Phrygian, Albanian, etc, but not part of the East Alpine Block like Illyrian.

He also clarifies that Balkanic IE doesnt necessarily mean phylogenetic relationship, but can possibly be areal contact as in the balkan sprachbund where Albanian, Turkish, South Slavic dialects have shared features from contact despite not having a phylogenetic relationship.

So according to him the term Messapo-Illyrian is like saying Albano-South Slavic, it is imposing a phylogenetic relationship where there is possibly none, and should therefore be avoided.

Messapians Proper also need to be differentiated from Daunians, etc, since almost all messapian language inscriptions are found where the Messapi Proper lived, and those regions outside of the Messapi Proper also appear to be places that Messapi conquered, as in the example of a reference to Messapi conquering the Dauni.

Daunians may have had more Illyrians, Dalmatians, Iapodians etc in their ethnogenesis, Messapi Proper may have had more Dardanians, etc (the largest Messapi Proper tribe, the Kalabri, are connected with the Dardani Galabroi.)

Another thing relevant here is that Messapic is not Proto-Albanian, it feels like some people are under this impression.

Likewise, the big point here is that languages like Phrygian, Paeonian, etc, existed. These were Balkan IE languages that were neither Thracian or Illyrian, as Matzinger is considering Messapic and Albanian.

 

[Hawk]

Matzinger's argument is relevant here
He argues thar Messapic is part of the Balkanic IE group with Greek, Phrygian, Albanian, etc, but not part of the East Alpine Block like Illyrian.
He also clarifies that Balkanic IE doesnt necessarily mean phylogenetic relationship, but can possibly be areal contact as in the balkan sprachbund where Albanian, Turkish, South Slavic dialects have shared features from contact despite not having a phylogenetic relationship.
So according to him the term Messapo-Illyrian is like saying Albano-South Slavic, it is imposing a phylogenetic relationship where there is possibly none, and should therefore be avoided.
Messapians Proper also need to be differentiated from Daunians, etc, since almost all messapian language inscriptions are found where the Messapi Proper lived, and those regions outside of the Messapi Proper also appear to be places that Messapi conquered, as in the example of a reference to Messapi conquering the Dauni.
Daunians may have had more Illyrians, Dalmatians, Iapodians etc in their ethnogenesis, Messapi Proper may have had more Dardanians, etc (the largest Messapi Proper tribe, the Kalabri, are connected with the Dardani Galabroi.)
Another thing relevant here is that Messapic is not Proto-Albanian, it feels like some people are under this impression.
Likewise, the big point here is that languages like Phrygian, Paeonian, etc, existed. These were Balkan IE languages that were neither Thracian or Illyrian, as Matzinger is considering Messapic and Albanian.

Thanks for the clarification, it sounds plausible.

 

[Dushman]

Wow, Messapic is related to Trojan-Dardanian now. The inland Dardanians could settle and rename Southern Italy but they couldn’t influence Albania and Montenegro. They just pressed Skip on those lands and bought ships from the Enchelei and Taulantians or the mysterious non-Illyrian non-Hellenic Adriatic tribes around Dyrrachium. Ok, where do I buy his book? I want to donate to this poor dude.

Daddy Matzinger has 0 written records but he knows there were separate Paeonian, Brygian, Dardanian, Illyrian (of the Illyrii proprie dicti), Adriatic language around Dyrrachium (non-Illyrian).

I’m curious about the Ardiaei language. Was it proprie dicti? Or more of an Autariatae-like language since they reached the coast later?

Next thing, we need to show some love to the Parthini and Dassareti languages of the South.

This loser linguist that makes a living out of the neglected Albanian needs to revise his university lectures on Aeolic, Ionic, Doric, and Arcado-Cypriot.

 

[Hawk]

Emotional damage.

 

[enter_tain]

Oh yeah. Johan Deranged is definitely the sock. He goes quiet for a long time, and all the sock accounts pop up. As soon as I quote him, he pops up again. Someone check his IP.

 

[Johane Derite]

Matzinger's argument is relevant here
He argues thar Messapic is part of the Balkanic IE group with Greek, Phrygian, Albanian, etc, but not part of the East Alpine Block like Illyrian.
He also clarifies that Balkanic IE doesnt necessarily mean phylogenetic relationship, but can possibly be areal contact as in the balkan sprachbund where Albanian, Turkish, South Slavic dialects have shared features from contact despite not having a phylogenetic relationship.
So according to him the term Messapo-Illyrian is like saying Albano-South Slavic, it is imposing a phylogenetic relationship where there is possibly none, and should therefore be avoided.
Messapians Proper also need to be differentiated from Daunians, etc, since almost all messapian language inscriptions are found where the Messapi Proper lived, and those regions outside of the Messapi Proper also appear to be places that Messapi conquered, as in the example of a reference to Messapi conquering the Dauni.
Daunians may have had more Illyrians, Dalmatians, Iapodians etc in their ethnogenesis, Messapi Proper may have had more Dardanians, etc (the largest Messapi Proper tribe, the Kalabri, are connected with the Dardani Galabroi.)
Another thing relevant here is that Messapic is not Proto-Albanian, it feels like some people are under this impression.
Likewise, the big point here is that languages like Phrygian, Paeonian, etc, existed. These were Balkan IE languages that were neither Thracian or Illyrian, as Matzinger is considering Messapic and Albanian.

Also relevant to the Messapic Kalabri and Dardanian Galabroi is the earliest known king of the Taulanti, Galabrus/Galaurus.

If this kings name is related, might it possibly have something to do with the channelled ware presence in Taulanti regions?

 

[enter_tain]

Albanian is not a pure Illyrian language

Albanian is not a pure Thracian language

Bryges were in Albania circa 1200BC, some Dardani crossed from Balkans to Anatolia around this time too, WITH some of the Bryges. Some stayed behind in the Balkans. Bryges, Dardani, Paeoni, seem to all be heavily interlinked in history & their geography, in both the Balkans and Anatolia. Lots of overlap with these ancient tribes. It's likely these people were rich in E-V13. I think around this time, Illyrians had started settling Albania, and other nearby areas, or possibly earlier (rumored MBA J2b2 Albania sample)

No doubt J2b2 and E-V13 lived among each other and mixed since the LBA. By The Iron Age, Illyrians gave even more influence, to the Dardani, Paeoni, etc. The Illyrians allied with these people numerous times in history too, their stretch of influence was up to the Morava Vardar, where they met Thracians that lived among these rivers

It's also interesting that after Bryges disappear from Albania, the Albanoi are mentioned in their place several hundreds of years later. This makes me wonder, if Albanoi / Arber was formed from Bryges + Illyrians (Arbi?)

Either way, I think there's no doubt that Albanian is Thraco-Illyrian, with more Illyrian influence than Thracian. I don't think it's possible to tie it down to only one of these languages, given the lack of written material from ancient Illyrians and Thracians. We know Albanian is linked to Messapic, who came from Illyria, who were J2b2. To ignore this, is a wishful, pure Thracoid fantasy.. In that same token, to ignore that E-V13 is the most common haplogroup among Albanians today, is a wishful, pure Illyrian fantasy too. Clearly we have links to both, I think this shouldn't be ignored. Everyone wants to be "pure" and assign themselves to one tribe or race, this type of thinking is a lot like the outdated "Aryan-Nordic-Nazi" theories that was popular in Germany / Northern Europe like 100 years ago. All we talk about here is, "J2b2 isn't Albanian" "E-V13 isn't Albanian" "Illyrians were weak, look how low J2b2 is." "Thracians were weak, look how assimilated E-V13 is"

Ridiculous. We are not pure Illyrians and we are not pure Thracians... All the fantasy fiction writers on here need to realize this

That's not how languages work. Albanian, like any other language, has a certain set of laws that go from Proto-Indo-European -> Albanian. Thracian and Illyrian are a different set of languages with different rules.

There's nothing in Albanian that implies it's a fusion language.

It's also interesting that after Bryges disappear from Albania, the Albanoi are mentioned in their place several hundreds of years later. This makes me wonder, if Albanoi / Arber was formed from Bryges + Illyrians (Arbi?)

They are most likely an extension of the Taulanti. Probably a northern tribe of theirs.

 

[torzio]

Your fragile brain still fails to grasp that Albanian and Messapic being related, makes this impossible. Messapic has roots as long as >3000 years back to the Balkans, and we see archeological + genetic evidence linking them to the West Balkans.

There are 0 linguists today who dispute a link between Albanian and Messapic. This is why Albanian is "Adriatic Indo-European".

whatever link you have with messapic and Albania is due to the Messapic trading with Albania , the people on the Albanian coast be it epirotes or whoever learnt some messapic words........it is not the other way around.............this trade only began circa 400BC , due to the fact that the messpics and Daunians led an isolated/closed society who only traded with croatians...ie Liburnians

 

[torzio]

Also relevant to the Messapic Kalabri and Dardanian Galabroi is the earliest known king of the Taulanti, Galabrus/Galaurus.
If this kings name is related, might it possibly have something to do with the channelled ware presence in Taulanti regions?

messapic had already changed after 500 years in Italy ................the Kalabri/calabri at the time lived near modern Taranto ( SW of )

they had already changed their alphabet

Messapic alphabet, also called Messapian Alphabet, one of two Italian offshoots of the Tarentine–Ionic variety of the Greek alphabet. It was adopted c. 500 bc by the Messapii, who inhabited southeastern Italy in pre-Roman times.

 

[Excine]

@Johane Do not credit Matzinger with theories he has never written. Matzinger does not argue that Messapian is more closely related to Greek and Phrygian due to its position in a Balkanic IE or that Albanian is more closely related to Messapian than to Illyrian of the Illyrii proprie dicti. You are attempting to lend credibility to your personal theories by attributing them to a linguist.


Illyrian is the language of the Illyrian proprie dicti, according to Matzinger. According to Matzinger, neither the Iapodes nor any other northern/middle/inner Illyrian tribe spoke "Illyrian." This is simply his terminology; it does not imply that they did not speak a mutually intelligible language that belonged to the same group as "Illyrian."




Daunians and Messapians belonged to the same people, spoke the same language, and were regarded by all as the same people. The notion that we should "differentiate" them is an absurd fringe theory that nobody supports.


You wish to distinguish them because you refuse to believe that J-L283 and E-V13 spoke the same language. Illyrians are the only ancient people to have a single haplogroup, according to fringe theories promoted by the same people who claimed Albanians originated in the Caucasus a decade ago. In any case, we are beginning to discover E-V13 in the western Balkans during antiquity, and that's what will remain recorded in history.

 

[Excine]

Matzinger is just following the data and is the most updated linguist dealing both in specialised Albanian and Old Albanian and ancient balkan languages. He is also not alone, this is what is most updated. He would not argue for Messapic-Albanian relations for some sort of agenda, since this language is even more western than Illyrian.

Also his reference here to the Ostalpenblock (East Alpine Block) is based on linguist Peter Anreiter's work, he is just in agreement more or less (but he does say "cautiously").

But this paradigm of Messapic not being Illyrian is interesting (he says that Messapic and Illyrian would have had contacts in the balkan stage though).

According to him Messapic is a typical language of the Balkan IE group like Phrygian, Armenian, Albanian, Thracian, and Greek. The East Alpine Block group is not part of this group but had contacts with it according to him.

Herodotus actually wrote the the Messapians came from Crete:

"§ 7.170 For the story goes that Minos, having come to Sicania, which is now called Sicily, in search of Daidalos, died there by a violent death; and after a time the Cretans, urged thereto by a god, all except the men of Polichne and Praisos, came with a great armament to Sicania and besieged for seven years the city of Camicos, which in my time was occupied by the Agrigentines; and at last not being able either to capture it or to remain before it, because they were hard pressed by famine, they departed and went away.

And when, as they sailed, they came to be off the coast of Iapygia, a great storm seized them and cast them away upon the coast; and their vessels being dashed to pieces, they, since they saw no longer any way of coming to Crete, founded there the city of Hyria; and there they stayed and were changed so that they became instead of Cretans, Messapians of Iapygia, and instead of islanders, dwellers on the mainland: then from the city of Hyria they founded those other settlements which the Tarentines long afterwards endeavoured to destroy and suffer great disaster in that enterprise, so that this in fact proved to be the greatest slaughter of Hellenes that is known to us, and not only of the Tarentines themselves but of those citizens of Rhegion who were compelled by Mikythos the son of Choiros to go to the assistance of the Tarentines, and of whom there were slain in this manner three thousand men: of the Tarentines themselves however, who were slain there, there was no numbering made. This Mikythos, who was a servant of Anaxilaos, had been left by him in charge of Rhegion; and he it was who after being driven out of Rhegion took up his abode at Tegea of the Arcadians and dedicated those many statues at Olympia."

Fringe theories about Messapians by Johane Derite include calling them ... Cretans!

 

[Hawk]

Also relevant to the Messapic Kalabri and Dardanian Galabroi is the earliest known king of the Taulanti, Galabrus/Galaurus.
If this kings name is related, might it possibly have something to do with the channelled ware presence in Taulanti regions?

I have been checking Italian sources before on Messapi burial rite and they are an interesting case, early Messapi used mostly burial pits as their funerary practice, while latter adopting the sarcophagi and burial rites from neighboring Greeks. I cannot find anything where they mention that they used the Illyrian-specific tumulus mounds or that they cremated their deads on a pyre on top of a tumuli like Channeled-Ware people did, but variants of Channeled-Ware like Kapitan Andreevo used burial pits as well.

Anyway, confusing group if you look at material culture, nothing conclusive.

Even if we want to connect via Matt-Painter Pottery Culture, just doesn't sum up everything, neither with Glasinac-Mat neither with the Channeled-Ware people. That must have been a group which was conquered and latter on merged with incoming three tribes, no matter whether Messapi differed from the other two (like old Italic tales tell us that two brothers Iapyx and Daun and the unrelated Messapi were forerunners of the three tribes).

 

[Johane Derite]

I have been checking Italian sources before on Messapi burial rite and they are an interesting case, early Messapi used mostly burial pits as their funerary practice, while latter adopting the sarcophagi and burial rites from neighboring Greeks. I cannot find anything where they mention that they used the Illyrian-specific tumulus mounds or that they cremated their deads on a pyre on top of a tumuli like Channeled-Ware people did, but variants of Channeled-Ware like Kapitan Andreevo used burial pits as well.

Anyway, confusing group if you look at material culture, nothing conclusive.

Even if we want to connect via Matt-Painter Pottery Culture, just doesn't sum up everything, neither with Glasinac-Mat neither with the Channeled-Ware people. That must have been a group which was conquered and latter on merged with incoming three tribes, no matter whether Messapi differed from the other two (like old Italic tales tell us that two brothers Iapyx and Daun and the unrelated Messapi were forerunners of the three tribes).

It's very messy since there are so many influences from greeks, italics, and also the possibility of other balkan groups.

Testing dna in their main older cities in the heart of Messapia, like Oria, Manduria, etc, might give a clearer picture about what was going on.

I remember reading from leonard palmer that he argued that messapic lamguage came around 700s bc as an easternising influence of horse riding as opposed to horse driving.

I read in an other article that daunians had contact with dalmatia since at least middle bronze age via gargano. So if there were multiple waves of differing balkan peoples this also makes it messier.