Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[mount123]

Tribal names under Roman rule.


Basically east of Prishtina is a Thracian sphere. Dreaming of E-V13 in Nish, south Serbia or Macedonia, you're basically conceding to a Daco-Thracian origin without saying it outright. And between these two main spheres(Illyrian and Thracian) is a third linguistic group, the R1b-Z1203 IE group that's neither Thracian or Illyrian. The Dardanian substrate and the Paeonians.

That is what most linguists argue about the origin of Albanian. They don't argue it is Illyrian or Thracian descended. As I have repeated to some stubborn people who try to apply their modern ethnic identity to aDNA records, the Illyrian case is clear cut: Proto-Illyrian Cetina/Dinaric is what gave rise to Classical Illyrians, and these are a desert for E1b-V13 and an el dorado for J2b-L283. The Balkan sphere of R1b-Z2103+ extending from the northern part to the southern part of the central Balkans and manifesting in those Paeonian and alike results is very telling.

What we can say about Illyrian is that many linguists that have been specializing in deciphering this scarcely transmitted language either argue for a centum based/centum-like language or it doesn't fit a clear position in the mainstream Centum-Satem classification system. We have an abundance of samples from this area and the auDNA and parental DNA is only partially reflected in modern Albanians, specifically certain regions.

 

[enter_tain]

That is what most linguists argue about the origin of Albanian. They don't argue it is Illyrian or Thracian descended. As I have repeated to some stubborn people who try to apply their modern ethnic identity to aDNA records, the Illyrian case is clear cut: Proto-Illyrian Cetina/Dinaric is what gave rise to Classical Illyrians, and these are a desert for E1b-V13 and an el dorado for J2b-L283. The Balkan sphere of R1b-Z2103+ extending from the northern part to the southern part of the central Balkans and manifesting in those Paeonian and alike results is very telling.

What we can say about Illyrian is that many linguists that have been specializing in deciphering this scarcely transmitted language either argue for a centum based/centum-like language or it doesn't fit a clear position in the mainstream Centum-Satem classification system. We have an abundance of samples from this area and the auDNA and parental DNA is only partially reflected in modern Albanians, specifically certain regions.

Wikipedia has compiled a list of dozens of authors who claim Illyrian -> Albanian. You're just a pathetic clown with some inferiority complex, trying to make up a fake identity.

Albanians descend from the Albanoi in northern Albania. Everything points to this from language to genetics. The last paper showed clear genetic continuity since the Middle Bronze Age. This is by the researchers' own words.

 

[enter_tain]

Nothing supports Proto-Albanians were some kind of hybrid tribe nor have I seen evidence of hybrid tribes.

These people are reaching a point of pathetic desperation. The Albanian language itself is clearly not a hybrid language, as it has a consistent set of rules linking it back to PIE.

And notice it: they're all "Kosovars" who want to construct a fake "Dardanian" identity (forget the fact that Dardanians are outright called Illyrian by the Greeks). I'm sure it's a coincidence.

These people are straight up making up imaginary populations that never existed during the time period which they're talking about.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

That is what most linguists argue about the origin of Albanian. They don't argue it is Illyrian or Thracian descended. As I have repeated to some stubborn people who try to apply their modern ethnic identity to aDNA records, the Illyrian case is clear cut: Proto-Illyrian Cetina/Dinaric is what gave rise to Classical Illyrians, and these are a desert for E1b-V13 and an el dorado for J2b-L283. The Balkan sphere of R1b-Z2103+ extending from the northern part to the southern part of the central Balkans and manifesting in those Paeonian and alike results is very telling.

What we can say about Illyrian is that many linguists that have been specializing in deciphering this scarcely transmitted language either argue for a centum based/centum-like language or it doesn't fit a clear position in the mainstream Centum-Satem classification system. We have an abundance of samples from this area and the auDNA and parental DNA is only partially reflected in modern Albanians, specifically certain regions.

Linguistic and DNA evidence are lining up in agreement, it's unavoidable, it's in your face.

 

[enter_tain]

Linguistic and DNA evidence are lining up in agreement, it's unavoidable, it's in your face.

Yeah it is. When Messapics were genetically proven as descendants of Illyrian, you all became a laughing stock.

You felt free to make up fake b.s. in the absence of written Illyrian, but we have written Messapic.

 

[enter_tain]

I love how some people's brains can't compute the fact that 1 population can have more than 1 Y-DNA. This mount moron straight up thinks Illyrians have no R1b, when they're an IE-speaking IE-derived population.

In the last study, we literally had more R1b than J2b2 for Illyrians.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Evidence for your claim?

How's that Illyrian diet going?

 

[mount123]

There is a fundamental problem I have observed in repetitive slogans made by certain users on this and other fora in regards to Albanian or Balkan aDNA related threads:

The statistics of the samples gathered in the Albanian DNA projects underneath are mostly in line with peer reviewed scientific papers in regards to the YDNA composition of the Albanian male population.

83.9% (or 81.6%) of the total male Albanian population (general not specific to regions) does not belong to Y DNA J2b-L283 which via aDNA records has been shown to have been the main and defining Illyrian paternal line (map courtesy of Veseli): J2b-L283 ancient DNA

Given the statistics it is also easy to conclude that this haplogroup in the bio of many Albanian accounts here is suspiciously over represented and that is statistically speaking impossible. The reason for this occurrence is quite simple: multiple spam/fake accounts.

Albanian Y DNA (general not specific to regions) as per Rrenjet https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/:

	N	E-V13	R-M269 (R1b-Z2103 + R1b-PF7562)	J2b-L283	I-Y3120	R-M417	I-M253	J-M410	J-M267	I-M223	G	E-M123
Albanians	1419	26.7%	19.9%	16.1%	7.2%	6.8%	5.2%	5.2%	2.7%	2.6%	1.3%	1.1%

Gjenetika's http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ statistics of the three most frequent paternal markers do not differ much from the above:

	N	E-V13	R-M269 (R1b-Z2103 + R1b-PF7562)	J2b-L283
Albanians	931	27.5%	20.1%	18.4%

Note: R1b-Z2103 and R1b-PF7562 in both projects are grouped under the macro haplogroup designation R-M269.

 

[Illyria]

So Proto-Albanians are E-V13 Channeled Ware Thracians + R1b-M269 Paeonian Brygians who took on J2b2 Illyrian language, culture, and burial rites? Lol

Where's all the linguistic links to Thracian? Why do we have so many more links to Illyrian? Haplogroup frequencies change over time, Illyrians are a mountain people, J2b2 is highest in the mountains, E-V13 and R1b more common in the lowlands

Is it easier to grow communities in the mountains, or in the lowlands? It's easier to grow large communities in lowlands, hence why E-V13 and R1b are more common than J2b2.

Look at any place on earth, CITIES have more people than RURAL AREAS. Woe to the Neo-Illyrians from the Trojan-Dardanian plains, they want to live in fantasy.

Why do scholars say Albanians have roughly the same components from the Bronze Age to current times, why are we closer to HRV_IA than Bulgaria IA? We are literally pulled in the direction of the West Balkans, not the East Balkans. Why do Byzantine Epirotes and Ancient Macedonians overlap with Albanians? Why aren't those Macedonians pulled into the direction of Thrace? Epirotes and Macedonians intermarried with ILLYRIANS. Why does Albanian match Messapic, and why do scholars put it together in a branch with Illyric and Albanian?

Truly amazing, this need, from the Neo-Illyrians to be from somewhere far away east. Why do ancient sources say that the Dardanians were Illyrian, and that the Paeoni were Illyrian influenced? Even the Maedi and Triballi are said to have Illyrian influence, but noooo, the Neo-Illyrians, and Riverman, think that J2b2 was only confined to a thin line on the Adriatic coast Like I said before, we need to test Bosnia, Southern Serbia, Kosova, and we need more samples from Montenegro (in the North of MNE where J2b2 and E-V13 could have met as it's more close to Central Balkans, Doclea is pure Illyrian territory in Ancient times)

Once we test these areas then we can start drawing more accurate conclusions to please the Neo-Illyrians. When we find E-V13 there, what will that mean? That these Thracians stopped cremating and took on an Illyrian burial rite. It seems much more likely that Proto-Albanians come from somewhere within the square of Croatia-Serbia-Albania-Macedonia. All the current data does not suggest we come from a square of Serbia-Romania-Macedonia-Bulgaria. It's amazing how it's only Kosovars who support this nonsense. They want to feel "special" and withdrawn from Albania, even though the data points for our origin in the West Balkans, by genetics, culture, and linguistics. Their false rhetoric is what Serbs and Greeks are foaming at the mouth for, to confirm their propaganda of Albanians being some new population that just popped out of the woods somewhere East.

 

[Illyria]

Albanians are considered the most Dinaric in the Balkans in phenotype, especially in the mountains. Albanians represent the "pure Dinaric phenotype", as do Montenegrins who many of their tribes have Albanian origin, and Herzegovinians and people from Dalmatia, although they too are less Dinaric than Albanians because they have more Slavic DNA than us. The further east and north you go from today's Albanians, the more this Dinaric phenotype is watered down. Everyone says you can tell an Albanian clear as day by the shape of their head. Were the Proto-Albanians, Pontid-Gracile-Meds from the East, with slim heads like Bulgarians and Eastern Greeks? Doubtful

 

[broder]

There is a fundamental problem I have observed in repetitive slogans made by certain users on this and other fora in regards to Albanian or Balkan aDNA related threads:

The statistics of the samples gathered in the Albanian DNA projects underneath are mostly in line with peer reviewed scientific papers in regards to the YDNA composition of the Albanian male population.

83.9% (or 81.6%) of the total male Albanian population (general not specific to regions) does not belong to Y DNA J2b-L283 which via aDNA records has been shown to have been the main and defining Illyrian paternal line (map courtesy of Veseli): J2b-L283 ancient DNA

Given the statistics it is also easy to conclude that this haplogroup in the bio of many Albanian accounts here is suspiciously over represented and that is statistically speaking impossible. The reason for this occurrence is quite simple: multiple spam/fake accounts.

Albanian Y DNA (general not specific to regions) as per Rrenjet https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/:

	N	E-V13	R-M269 (R1b-Z2103 + R1b-PF7562)	J2b-L283	I-Y3120	R-M417	I-M253	J-M410	J-M267	I-M223	G	E-M123
Albanians	1419	26.7%	19.9%	16.1%	7.2%	6.8%	5.2%	5.2%	2.7%	2.6%	1.3%	1.1%

Gjenetika's http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ statistics of the three most frequent paternal markers do not differ much from the above:

	N	E-V13	R-M269 (R1b-Z2103 + R1b-PF7562)	J2b-L283
Albanians	931	27.5%	20.1%	18.4%

Note: R1b-Z2103 and R1b-PF7562 in both projects are grouped under the macro haplogroup designation R-M269.

Besides L283 even Z2103>CTS9219 was also confirmed in Illyrian Iron Age context. So two of our major lines confirmed thus far among them, wether we like it or not. That also may very well have linguistic implications regardless what linguists say now days.

 

[Excine]

Besides L283 even Z2103>CTS9219 was also confirmed in Illyrian Iron Age context. So two of our major lines confirmed thus far among them, wether we like it or not. That also may very well have linguistic implications regardless what linguists say now days.

It's becoming a joke that some people are trying to cope so hard that now they're just posting modern frequencies of haplogroups as if anyone claimed that 100% of modern Albanian Y-DNA haplogroups come directly from Illyrians or as if that has anything to do with the Albanian autosomal profile whose closest is the Illyrian one. It's very hard for some people to understand that from J-L283 to I-Y3120, all Albanians have mostly ancestors from the ancient western Balkans. This ancient population is called "Illyrians".

Close to 40% of Albanian lines have been found in just one site What other population in the Balkans can claim that at such an early date for the modern population? It's clear that R-Z2103+ and J-L283+ Albanian lines were part of the same Illyrian/P-Alb population and when get data from other Illyrian sites we'll see what else Illyrians carried. For reference, Gauls had 4-5 main lineages/haplogroups.

 

[torzio]

So Proto-Albanians are E-V13 Channeled Ware Thracians + R1b-M269 Paeonian Brygians who took on J2b2 Illyrian language, culture, and burial rites? Lol

Where's all the linguistic links to Thracian? Why do we have so many more links to Illyrian? Haplogroup frequencies change over time, Illyrians are a mountain people, J2b2 is highest in the mountains, E-V13 and R1b more common in the lowlands

Is it easier to grow communities in the mountains, or in the lowlands? It's easier to grow large communities in lowlands, hence why E-V13 and R1b are more common than J2b2.

Look at any place on earth, CITIES have more people than RURAL AREAS. Woe to the Neo-Illyrians from the Trojan-Dardanian plains, they want to live in fantasy.

Why do scholars say Albanians have roughly the same components from the Bronze Age to current times, why are we closer to HRV_IA than Bulgaria IA? We are literally pulled in the direction of the West Balkans, not the East Balkans. Why do Byzantine Epirotes and Ancient Macedonians overlap with Albanians? Why aren't those Macedonians pulled into the direction of Thrace? Epirotes and Macedonians intermarried with ILLYRIANS. Why does Albanian match Messapic, and why do scholars put it together in a branch with Illyric and Albanian?

Truly amazing, this need, from the Neo-Illyrians to be from somewhere far away east. Why do ancient sources say that the Dardanians were Illyrian, and that the Paeoni were Illyrian influenced? Even the Maedi and Triballi are said to have Illyrian influence, but noooo, the Neo-Illyrians, and Riverman, think that J2b2 was only confined to a thin line on the Adriatic coast Like I said before, we need to test Bosnia, Southern Serbia, Kosova, and we need more samples from Montenegro (in the North of MNE where J2b2 and E-V13 could have met as it's more close to Central Balkans, Doclea is pure Illyrian territory in Ancient times)

Once we test these areas then we can start drawing more accurate conclusions to please the Neo-Illyrians. When we find E-V13 there, what will that mean? That these Thracians stopped cremating and took on an Illyrian burial rite. It seems much more likely that Proto-Albanians come from somewhere within the square of Croatia-Serbia-Albania-Macedonia. All the current data does not suggest we come from a square of Serbia-Romania-Macedonia-Bulgaria. It's amazing how it's only Kosovars who support this nonsense. They want to feel "special" and withdrawn from Albania, even though the data points for our origin in the West Balkans, by genetics, culture, and linguistics. Their false rhetoric is what Serbs and Greeks are foaming at the mouth for, to confirm their propaganda of Albanians being some new population that just popped out of the woods somewhere East.

The Triballi wild Boar is a symbol for the Serbian Governtment seal ............are you sure on what you state or are you quoting from Quora
the Parliament adopted the Serbian Coat of Arms in 1805, their official seal depicted the heraldic emblems of Serbia and Tribalia.[38]


Thracian hypothesis saw potential Albanian ancestors in the Thracian stratum in Dardania. In
keeping with a comparatively recent view of this Thracian stratum as an ethno-linguistically separate Daco-Mysian region, which included
Dardania,

The Albanian language emerged in consequence of inter-linguistic diffusions among the indigenous and
Romanized Balkan populations, as inferred by Agnia Desnitskaya, resulting in an amalgamation of the old and new with the Latin lexicon as
a substrate element of the new language of the new inhabitants.

 

[torzio]

Besides L283 even Z2103>CTS9219 was also confirmed in Illyrian Iron Age context. So two of our major lines confirmed thus far among them, wether we like it or not. That also may very well have linguistic implications regardless what linguists say now days.

you sound very disappointed that Illyrians had more Haplogroups than just J-L283 !!!

 

[Trojet]

Besides L283 even Z2103>CTS9219 was also confirmed in Illyrian Iron Age context. So two of our major lines confirmed thus far among them, wether we like it or not. That also may very well have linguistic implications regardless what linguists say now days.

It's becoming a joke that some people are trying to cope so hard that now they're just posting modern frequencies of haplogroups as if anyone claimed that 100% of modern Albanian Y-DNA haplogroups come directly from Illyrians or as if that has anything to do with the Albanian autosomal profile whose closest is the Illyrian one. It's very hard for some people to understand that from J-L283 to I-Y3120, all Albanians have mostly ancestors from the ancient western Balkans. This ancient population is called "Illyrians".

Close to 40% of Albanian lines have been found in just one site What other population in the Balkans can claim that at such an early date for the modern population? It's clear that R-Z2103+ and J-L283+ Albanian lines were part of the same Illyrian/P-Alb population and when get data from other Illyrian sites we'll see what else Illyrians carried. For reference, Gauls had 4-5 main lineages/haplogroups.

Absolutely great points. And let's not forget that in addition to J-L283, we have R-Z2103+ confirmed among the Iapygians (Daunians). So we have evidence that southern Illyrians carried at least these two haplogroups, which all Albanians have ancestors from.

Archeogenetic studies are still in their infancy. When it comes to Albanian J-L283, we should also keep in mind that over 50% of it falls under J-Y21045>PH4679 subclade, which as of now has yet to be confirmed in aDNA (before some of us proclaim ourselves "Neo-Illyrians" ). I have no reason to believe it has a different history from the others, but considering it hasn't been found among ancient samples closer to the Adriatic coast, which make up the bulk of available aDNA, maybe this subclade was further inland like ancient Dardania or the immediate surrounds. Modern diversity is greater further inland in Albanian territories as well.

 

[Excine]

Absolutely great points. And let's not forget that in addition to J-L283, we have R-Z2103+ confirmed among the Iapygians (Daunians). So we have evidence that southern Illyrians carried at least these two haplogroups, which all Albanians have ancestors from.
Archeogenetic studies are still in their infancy. When it comes to Albanian J-L283, we should also keep in mind that over 50% of it falls under J-Y21045>PH4679 subclade, which as of now has yet to be found in aDNA (before some of us proclaim ourselves "Neo-Illyrians"). I have no reason to believe it has a different history from the others, but considering it hasn't been found among ancient samples close to the Adriatic coast, maybe this lineage was further inland, like ancient Dardania or the immediate surrounds. Modern diversity is also greater further inland in Albanian territories.

Indeed, whatever the case will end up being, we are starting to get closer at the final clues regarding what is and what isn't. Unfortunately some members here will still continue and try insisting otherwise, an evil tag-team of anti-Albanian morons at their finest.

 

[Trojet]

you sound very disappointed that Illyrians had more Haplogroups than just J-L283 !!!

torzio/sile/zanipolo/vettor, stop embarrassing yourself and go take a nap Your obsession with Albanians is mind boggling.

 

[torzio]

torzio/sile/zanipolo/vettor, stop embarrassing yourself and go take a nap Your obsession with Albanians is mind boggling.

you missed a few ...........so you also hate to find other haplogroups for the "illyrians"

for you

Italian Cetina appears ca. 2500–2300 BC.
Cetina is therefore a synergistic culture (relating to the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations) , developed in combination with local cultures by migrating Bell Beakers, likely from a region near the Adriatic island of Palagruža, where Bell Beaker elements are predominant: wristguards, comb–stamp decorated pottery sherds with Bell Beaker decoration, and flint-inventory with characteristic arrowheads typical of Mediterranean Bell Beakers . Characteristic settlements, especially in the western Balkan hinterland, suggest that Cetina settlers were nomadic herders.

The twenty-five Cetina sites comprise the whole northern and western Adriatic shore, stretching from Trieste in the north to the ‘heel’ of southern Apulia, with concentrations around the Daunia peninsula ( Gargano ) and the Apulian plain, with related pottery in the Corazzo–Zungri settlement showing extension towards Calabria and further inland, including also a northern site in the province of Trento. Its influence is thus felt along the Adriatic from Istria and the karst hinterland of Trieste and the southern Apennines, but also to the western Balkan hinterland.

Chronologically, it seems that first maritime beakers appear ca. 2500 BC or shortly after that in south and south-east Italy, impacting native cultures like the Laterza–Cellino San Marco culture.

Your tunnel vision of Cetina to only have J-L283 is a worry

 

[mount123]

So two of our major lines confirmed thus far among them, wether we like it or not. That also may very well have linguistic implications regardless what linguists say now days.

By saying „the main and defining paternal line“ one does not exclude other paternal lines also being present at low frequencies. The importance of the wording „main and defining“ is that J2b-L283 has the highest, most diverse frequency and is the most important indicator for Illyrian presence in a region.

Absolutely great points. And let's not forget that in addition to J-L283, we have R-Z2103+ confirmed among the Iapygians (Daunians). So we have evidence that southern Illyrians carried at least these two haplogroups, which all Albanians have ancestors from.

Archeogenetic studies are still in their infancy. When it comes to Albanian J-L283, we should also keep in mind that over 50% of it falls under J-Y21045>PH4679 subclade, which as of now has yet to be confirmed in aDNA (before some of us proclaim ourselves "Neo-Illyrians" ). I have no reason to believe it has a different history from the others, but considering it hasn't been found among ancient samples closer to the Adriatic coast, which make up the bulk of available aDNA, maybe this subclade was further inland like ancient Dardania or the immediate surrounds. Modern diversity is greater further inland in Albanian territories as well.

That "remark" aside, which I think you could address me directly with, I don't see a problem in writing that as an aDNA ethnonym in some anthroforum under a paternal line that has constantly been found in that archeological context I shall not name . I usually ignore such comments that I have seen multiple times here but since it is coming from you, I wanted to answer it.

Neither do I have a reason for believing that J2b-L283>Y21045>PH4679 has a "different history" considering we also had that YP91+ in IA Croatia didn't we? This speaks of diversity. Z638+ being found in BA Dinaric culture, LBA Italy and Montenegro manifesting in Z1297 and Z1297>Z1295>Y21878 was also a logical conclusion given the timeframe of the in batches released samples in question. The same applies to Z638>>Z631>Z1043+ which we have in early AD Serbia and Montenegro or Y27522+ which doesn’t really get much attention besides having a significant modern percentage in our folks. IA presence should be nearby for some likely more southern, for others more inland, northern for what we can logically conclude is that they will be very likely found in the same archeological complexes.

 

[broder]

By saying „the main and defining paternal line“ one does not exclude other paternal lines also being present at low frequencies. The importance of the wording „main and defining“ is that J2b-L283 has the highest, most diverse frequency and is the most important indicator for Illyrian presence in a region.

Sure, but I have noticed you keep dismissing it like it’s nothing. When today it’s one of our major linages and super relevant to our ethnogenesis.